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Isnt calling someone a bernie bot pretty much doing the same thing as when right wingers call people NPCs?
It's similar, except NPCs aren't really real but there were definitely overenthusiastic Bernie fans in 2016 but with the level of scarring you see among the center-left you'd think it was their Vietnam.
Democrats 50 years ago: constantly reliving the horrors of multiple unjust imperialist wars in east asia
Democrats today: constantly reliving the horrors of the 2016 Democratic primary
Been wondering a lot about whether self-proclaimed socialists should be doing coke. Posted something to that chapo reddit ( a sub I'd assume leaning heavily towards liberalism and social democracy) and got a mixed response. I feel like people often use the "No ethical consumption!!" thing to suggest that we should indulge in nihilistic hedonism because none of it would change. I'd find it very hard to accept someone saying that I good socialist can buy illegal ivory or travel to countries impoverished by imperialism to exploit women for sex just because individual choice doesn't change the world. I don't think we should all be snorting lines that comes from something so absolutely heinous, especially when it is 100% not necessary to out lives in any way.
Yeah, but people are going to continue using narcotics and there's nothing inherently wrong with drug use imo. The systems it's produced in are fucked, but the drug itself is just a drug. People will always use it unless we suddenly run out like we did with Qualuudes. Abuse and addiction are another thing entirely, but casual coke use shouldn't be cause for a moral quandary anymore than buying milk is.
Also, the "good socialist" debate just opens up a True Scotsman fallacy. I can't in good faith call someone a bad socialist because they do cocaine, because let's face it, I like to drink, I like chocolate, I like weed, and all of these things are produced in exploitative systems and they are also all unnecessary for me. You could easily call me a bad socialist for giving my money to these things, and you'd be right, but if we're getting petty about what people are eating, drinking, or snorting then that's just controlling behavior that we shouldn't engage in.
Let's agree that most philosophers and intellectuals in the 1800s were also high as fuck so it's unlikely Marx or anyone had particularly critical opinions of the role of drugs in daily life. We're only human, we're going to keep abusing drugs whether they come in pill form or powder. People are unhappy, I'm not going to punish them for trying to get happier.
Ethics and moralizing has nothing to do with Socialism and CTH is and most "self proclaimed Socialist" are COINTELPRO.
Also funny considering that for a chunk of time there a very large portion of American cocaine consumption was facilitated by murderous tankies in South America.
I wonder how much blow goes through Sendero and FARC controlled labs now days.
I wonder how much blow goes through Sendero and FARC controlled labs now days.
The question is more interesting if it pertains to a world where coke is not produced through capitalist logics and linked to imperialism and racism. Marxism is not focused on moral norms, it is focused on revolution. Thus abuse of drugs insofar as it impedes the worker is probably more of a concern than use. But in a marxist vocabulary you are more likely to face the question of what is the underlying reason for taking drugs? Escapism from a life without purpose, from the rat race, meaningless work or pure hedonism? Why and under what circumstances would people in a socialist society use drugs insofar as the reasons are not linked to escaping capitalism - someone like Marx would probably view recreational drugs in relation to alienation and its particular abundance under capitalism - Marx did not unlike some French marxist philosophers, consider alienation a necessary part of the human condition.
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I mean, duh. Everyone saw it coming from a #Resist-heavy site like this
The use of coke is only a socialist failure in that it reinforces structures of capitalist oppression. It's not the coke itself, it's the context under which coke is made and distributed. Of course we all are guilty of this to some extent because we can't fully extricate ourselves from capitalism, but narcotics falls under that class of luxuries that can be easily replaced or substituted for. The "no ethical consumption" excuse for hedonism strikes me as someone who likes to talk socialism but probably has few qualms about engaging in capitalistic excess. It takes the "i can't change anything by myself" and takes it to the extreme "so nothing I do matters and all is permitted".
I wouldn't judge anyone simply for doing coke though. It does not seem to be a productive activity. Now, trafficking it, especially as a boss or overseer of workers is another story.
And I'm in slight disagreement with House here. Perhaps socialism proper isn't exactly an ethical or moral framework but I'm only interested in socialism in so far as it satisfactorily solves some moral contradictions I see in the world. It is difficult for me to separate the emancipatory elements of Marxism from the general ethical desirability of common human emancipation.
For what do we seek to liberate ourselves from the boot heels of capitalism except that we believe it's just? And how can it be just if we don't consider it a moral good, and by extension, that capitalism is a moral failure?
I wouldn't judge anyone simply for doing coke though. It does not seem to be a productive activity. Now, trafficking it, especially as a boss or overseer of workers is another story.
And I'm in slight disagreement with House here. Perhaps socialism proper isn't exactly an ethical or moral framework but I'm only interested in socialism in so far as it satisfactorily solves some moral contradictions I see in the world. It is difficult for me to separate the emancipatory elements of Marxism from the general ethical desirability of common human emancipation.
For what do we seek to liberate ourselves from the boot heels of capitalism except that we believe it's just? And how can it be just if we don't consider it a moral good, and by extension, that capitalism is a moral failure?
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There is a quote often attributed to the German socialist Vorlander "The moment anyone started to talk to Marx about morality, he would roar with laughter."
And here as always I refer you to ISR: https://isreview.org/issue/82/marxism-morality-and-human-nature
Individual morality is subsumed under the construction of a good society. Morality as we know it is a way of governing for the elites. These ideas of morality as governmentality have been further elaborated on by French marxist philosophers post ww2. As Engels puts it:
With cartel violence?
Is this a "state violence is not demonstrably different from organized crime violence" or "the violence occurs with the collusion of the state" type argument?
Neither, but kinda.
The "violence" surrounding the drug trade comes with the expected profit seeking motives.
If they were legal under the State then we'd see the same use of force in service of guaranteeing who can participate and profit from that specific market
The "violence" surrounding the drug trade comes with the expected profit seeking motives.
If they were legal under the State then we'd see the same use of force in service of guaranteeing who can participate and profit from that specific market
Which has nothing to with whether he's a good candidate or not.
But we're supposed to be ideologically opposed to profit seekers yes?
I agree with you about the state motives thing because it's literally happening with marijuana.
For me, every person has a duty to the well-being of society and also to themselves, so I don't want to pass judgement on the coca farmer or the cocaine addict or occasional user but there are alternatives that, while still within the realm of state violence at least don't contribute to the ancap violence that cartels represent to me. I think we can agree ancaps are worse than just normative capitalists?
An open ended question: Do crime syndicates belong to the same class of hierarchal structures as states and corporations even as they operate opposed to laws, or are they an example of anarchistic folk justice corrupted by the influence of profit seekers?
I agree with you about the state motives thing because it's literally happening with marijuana.
For me, every person has a duty to the well-being of society and also to themselves, so I don't want to pass judgement on the coca farmer or the cocaine addict or occasional user but there are alternatives that, while still within the realm of state violence at least don't contribute to the ancap violence that cartels represent to me. I think we can agree ancaps are worse than just normative capitalists?
An open ended question: Do crime syndicates belong to the same class of hierarchal structures as states and corporations even as they operate opposed to laws, or are they an example of anarchistic folk justice corrupted by the influence of profit seekers?
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My head spun reading it. I knew this site was a left-center hugbox but good god.
It's like reading the comments section on The Hill. It's wild how conservative people's liberalism is lol
There was a response saying "Bernie's policies aren't fiscally conservative enough for me." Yeah, no shit.
This is the website where people throw themselves at the feet of video game corporations though so I can't be to surprised.
It's amazing how many video games people play where the extremely simple message is "Corporation Bad" and how no one can apply that simple concept to their actual lives. I've been playing video games my entire life and I really don't understand why video game discourse can't break that capitalist umbillical cord.
I mean, most of those "anti-corporation" games are made by corporations so the message is dilluted but still, baby steps.
I think art can still embody leftist ideals even when distributed under capitalist means. That's literally the point of capitalism, it cannot be avoided. Of course, you can't demand consumers of art to engage it intellectually; there are people who legitimately say Metal Gear Solid encouraged them to join the army, a series decrying the industrial war complex and showing soldiers as nothing but political tools of governments.
With how much corporations screw over gamers, though, you would think they would start to wake up and realize the trend. But nah. Libertarianism, ho!
bernie is good because he's gonna help us win social democracy and that kicks ass imo
No. Capitalism is total. I couldn't oppose a working class guy trying to bring in more money than goes out. Doesn't mean I support things like drug lords but...
I wouldn't distance them from the capitalist system. They're doing what the system is designed to do: make money.
The State reflects the class and mode of production. Laws are window dressing.
Thank you for answering I think I understand your argument in greater detail now. So if I have this right, cartel violence is a result of the profit seeking owner class excercising their class will. Though legal narcotics and illegal narcotics change the nature and scale of the violence in question, the source of oppression is the profit seeking class all the same?
Right, right. I just started playing Mirror's Edge Catalyst so I'm thinking about how much that game's anti-corporation vibes rings false since it's published by EA so that informed my post a bit. I'm also an hour deep so my thoughts on ME:C specifically might change. Anyway, I really liked the work done by Waypoint and Polygon done to highlight consumer & worker exploitation in the industry and I would hope those articles would leave a deeper imprint on the collective consciousness of gamers, but there's rarely introspection on the part of any consumer fanbase I suppose.
It's disappointing because music and film both have rich histories of leftist politics and messages, but gaming is a younger medium and the way we talked about games was so reductive for so long (and still is, but we have gotten much, much better since the days of EGM and GamePro) that I feel like interesting, progressive discussion about the medium is either limited or gets tied up in trying to separate itself from the consumerist "is it worth $60" mindset many readers find themselves in. Either that, or those progressive discussions just do not have the visibility they need to have. I love talking about video games about as much as I like talking about movies and music, I just wish I had more stuff to engage with.
Not "profit seeking" as it stands alone.
At the end of the day the manufactory and the labor in its peripheral are Capital, owned by the Capitalist who in this instance is a cartel boss, and the drugs produced are the commodity.
These commodities are either being produced against the will of the State, or in competition with the State and its allies' interests, be those interests simple profit or political control. If the State would legalize production the cartels would "legitimize" or disappear and the violence would stop.
As above it's not "profit seeking" above all else, as the legitimization of this drug production would both improve the quality of the drug and reduce profits per X amount produced significantly but at the expense of other, competing substances. The fear of competition is real.
It is a unique situation. The demand for that type of market is almost unequaled. If the State came in and, in favor of Pepsi, outlawed Coca Cola, we wouldn't see a Coca Cola Cartel delivering red cans of soda to people at $100 a gram.
I know a guy who can get you cans for $75 a gram.
Would it then be accurate to say the question of "should I do coke" is not meaningful in a strictly socialist framework about class relations and antagonism, and that one would need to employ a different framework to answer it, one that emphasizes personal morality rather than social morality?
Rupetta I finished reading the ISR piece. I am in full agreement with what it describes Aristotlean or Greco morality, which is that it exists in so far as it uplifts humanity. I also encounter a lot of "human nature" arguments on this board, to no one's surprise. Their idea of "human nature" is "whatever was 'common' in the last 1500 years".
Would it then be accurate to say the question of "should I do coke" is not meaningful in a strictly socialist framework about class relations and antagonism, and that one would need to employ a different framework to answer it, one that emphasizes personal morality rather than social morality?
Rupetta I finished reading the ISR piece. I am in full agreement with what it describes Aristotlean or Greco morality, which is that it exists in so far as it uplifts humanity. I also encounter a lot of "human nature" arguments on this board, to no one's surprise. Their idea of "human nature" is "whatever was 'common' in the last 1500 years".
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Asking "is what I am consuming ethical?" is not meaningful in general. The answer is always "No". Do what you want or what you are comfortable with but don't characterize your behavior or the abstaining from a particular thing as being from a "socialist motive". Moral turpitudes and their criminalization is, ultimately, bourgeois.
personally i'm down with anyone whose gonna get me a welfare state and stop starting wars
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Solo's flaccid performance at the box office is proof that the 99% is sick of what the 1% think is entertainment. A "Star War". Absurd.