Socialism |OT| The Dawn of a Red Era

Old_King_Coal

Member
Nov 1, 2017
139
Socialism is the liberation of the proletariat from the tyranny of the state. The two cannot co-exist as the states inherent existence incites the creation of a class structure and precludes the total ownership of labor by labor.
Yep yep.

If someone walks up and says, ‘I own this, and anything made with it’, why should the other people listen? Why would anyone?

Because if you don’t, that person turns around to the big fella with the big stick to moan, then the big fella comes up to you and says ‘no really, they own that, and if you don’t like it, you’re gonna have a bad time.’

That’s the state.
 

BuddyDharma

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,333
To be honest, I'm not a Liberal, Not Yet a Succdem.

What pushed you peeps into becoming socialists?
In my heart, I'm an anarchist.
In practice, I'm just kind of a tool.

For real, though, my slow leftward listing is mostly due to being poor and working class, becoming increasingly critical of capitalist systems, and dissatisfaction with liberal progressives. I don't really consider myself a socialist, or an anarchist, for that matter - I don't know what calling myself anything would actually mean for me. I just found it weird and frustrating that I could surround myself online with people who shared my values, but never really find any answers. They had plenty to give, but I could never buy wholly into their worldview. It always felt like they weren't asking the right questions, or they couldn't see the forest for the trees. Stumbling upon both anarchist and socialist writings made me realize there's a whole other dimension to political thought. I guess you could say the SJW postmodern Marxists pushed me even further towards the left. :p
 
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sphagnum

sphagnum

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,010
What's a Statist?
If I'm not mistaken, you've described the Maoist insurgency in the Philippines as statist too.
A statist is someone who supports the existence of the state.

Anarchists obviously don't. Leftcoms (such as House) don't, but recognize the need for the dictatorship of the proletariat during the transition (but still want to smash the state). Demsocs typically do support the existence of the state since they want to capture the its power and try to redirect it. Marxist-Leninists likewise support the existence of the state as part of a long epoch of "socialist construction" building towards post-state communism.
 
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sphagnum

sphagnum

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,010
Just wanna say that I'm a lurker who checks on this thread nearly ever day. I think of myself as of right now more of a socdem AOC/Bernie type so not really socialist but I enjoy reading people's take on various aspects of it and I've gotten a lot to chew on rather than the "cultural marxism" boogeyman that props up online around certain subjects.

Thank you to all who contribute in here and give people like me a lot to think on.
Missed this since it was on the other page, but welcome.
 

samoyed

Member
Oct 26, 2017
7,225
It's the same deal for gamers. They try to mask the fact that they're not super comfortable with social progressive stuff by adopting an attitude of "apathy", but it turns out no one responds to "apathy" so they have to go for "keep politics (social progression) out of my video games" as a perverted, lowest common denominator "consumer activism".
 

anthro

Member
Oct 28, 2017
224
Subposting because I don’t want to derail a thread, but a little shocked a couple of people point to Korea as a good American war.
 

Sibylus

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,335
Subposting because I don’t want to derail a thread, but a little shocked a couple of people point to Korea as a good American war.
... right. Like people don't know/care about the pretty nakedly imperialistic aims there (and MacArthur chomping at the bit to push through to China and drop nukes).
 
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sphagnum

sphagnum

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,010
Sadly I had no idea this thread existed. Glad it does! Hello there.
This just means I have to keep this thread on page 1 at all times.

I'm back, lots of new faces, how are things over here?
Bernie's got momentum, currently polling #2 in the Democratic primaries, but the election isn't even until November 2020. AOC is dominating news cycles constantly here. So expect more people to get interested in the thread. More importantly, how are you holding up down there?
 

Eylos

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,863
This just means I have to keep this thread on page 1 at all times.



Bernie's got momentum, currently polling #2 in the Democratic primaries, but the election isn't even until November 2020. AOC is dominating news cycles constantly here. So expect more people to get interested in the thread. More importantly, how are you holding up down there?
good luck to you guys, elections are something stressful

everyday is a new shitshow and something to get pissed with bolsonaro, it took me a time to get used with it. i believe something similar to you guys when trump got elected.

the only good news happening over here that i can think of, its the movie Marighella directed by the actor of Escobar in Narcos, its a story of a brazilian congressman by the communist party, with the military coup of 1964 he created an urban guerrilla group and wrote a book about urban guerrilla tactics, the members of the group got tortured and killed, they were involved in the kidnap of an US ambassador. So the right is going nuts with this movie, it will be an interesting movie.

edit: btw the movie about the ex-president of uruguay Mujica is available on netflix.

https://www.netflix.com/title/80185375

"1973. Uruguay is governed by a military dictatorship. One autumn night, three Tupamaro prisoners are taken from their jail cells in a secret military operation. The order is precise: "As we can't kill them, let's drive them mad." The three men will remain in solitary confinement for twelve years. Among them is Pepe Mujica - later to become president of Uruguay."
 
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Iloelemen

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,323
good luck to you guys, elections are something stressful

everyday is a new shitshow and something to get pissed with bolsonaro, it took me a time to get used with it. i believe something similar to you guys when trump got elected.

the only good news happening over here that i can think of, its the movie Marighella directed by the actor of Escobar in Narcos, its a story of a brazilian congressman by the communist party, with the military coup of 1964 he created an urban guerrilla group and wrote a book about urban guerrilla tactics, the members of the group got tortured and killed, they were involved in the kidnap of an US ambassador. So the right is going nuts with this movie, it will be an interesting movie.

edit: btw the movie about the ex-president of uruguay Mujica is available on netflix.

https://www.netflix.com/title/80185375

"1973. Uruguay is governed by a military dictatorship. One autumn night, three Tupamaro prisoners are taken from their jail cells in a secret military operation. The order is precise: "As we can't kill them, let's drive them mad." The three men will remain in solitary confinement for twelve years. Among them is Pepe Mujica - later to become president of Uruguay."
You're from Brazil? How are Bolsonaro's approval ratings?

Here in the Philippines back in 2016, Duterte enjoyed a 91% approval rating and i can attest that back then, most people I interacted with were pretty much okay with him.
Nowadays, there's more resentment towards him (thank Glob) with approval ratings reaching as low as 72% back in September 2018 (still high) but as recent December 2018, it was around 81%.
 

Eylos

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,863
You're from Brazil? How are Bolsonaro's approval ratings?

Here in the Philippines back in 2016, Duterte enjoyed a 91% approval rating and i can attest that back then, most people I interacted with were pretty much okay with him.
Nowadays, there's more resentment towards him (thank Glob) with approval ratings reaching as low as 72% back in September 2018 (still high) but as recent December 2018, it was around 81%.
That was released yesterday. Its 57,5% ( the lowest for a new president)
https://politica.estadao.com.br/noticias/geral,bolsonaro-tem-aprovacao-de-57-5-dos-brasileiros-diz-cnt,70002736383
Most people believe that if the ratings gets lower, they will kick him out, so the vice president gets in power (a retired general)
 

Juan29.Zapata

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,658
Colombia
That was released yesterday. Its 57,5% ( the lowest for a new president)
https://politica.estadao.com.br/noticias/geral,bolsonaro-tem-aprovacao-de-57-5-dos-brasileiros-diz-cnt,70002736383
Most people believe that if the ratings gets lower, they will kick him out, so the vice president gets in power (a retired general)
That still feels so high. In Colombia, our far-right president has approval of less than half. Thankfully he doesn't have majority in congress for most issues.

EDIT: Oh, unfortunately that was before a terrorist attack by the ELN guerrilla on a police academy, and before the threats of the USA against Venezuela. Probably higher now.
 
Oct 25, 2017
469
edit: btw the movie about the ex-president of uruguay Mujica is available on netflix.

https://www.netflix.com/title/80185375

"1973. Uruguay is governed by a military dictatorship. One autumn night, three Tupamaro prisoners are taken from their jail cells in a secret military operation. The order is precise: "As we can't kill them, let's drive them mad." The three men will remain in solitary confinement for twelve years. Among them is Pepe Mujica - later to become president of Uruguay."
This looks really interesting, thanks for bringing it to my attention!
 

Mekanos

Member
Oct 17, 2018
4,913
To be honest, I'm not a Liberal, Not Yet a Succdem.

What pushed you peeps into becoming socialists?
I grew up in a privileged upper middle class family where I always had my basic needs taken care of. I’ve had liberal beliefs for as long as I can remember, whether that’s because of my parents or other influences I couldn’t tell you. I went through adolescence watching the “war on terror” and the obscene amount of money being pumped into it. I witnessed things like the economy collapsing that made me cynical about my future, after the 90s taught my generation that we were all gonna be awesome.

I’ve always been a fairly empathetic person, but I never quite had the understanding or vocabulary to grasp what was wrong with the world. The multiple race-related shootings that took place during the early 2010s (Trayvon Martin and Mike Brown especially) made me angry and distrustful of the state. I’ve always known about things like slavery, Jim Crow, etc. but I kinda thought of us as “past” that. Understanding how that ties into our modern treatment of black people, as well as the other various modern atrocities committed by the US (particularly in Latin American countries) made it impossible for me to consider myself a “proud American” or anything like that.

Like a lot of people, entering the work force really got me aware of how fucked it is. You spend your free time worried your boss is gonna call you in, to say nothing of how demanding and mentally taxing the 40 hour work week is, particularly for people like myself who are autistic. Dealing with bosses and supervisors who know nothing but to yell at you to get stuff done (I was a general manager for a grocery store) because you’re doing 3-5 things at once, even when you’re working as physically fast as possible, was demoralizing and depressing. The idea that billions of people must work these types of jobs for most of their hours on planet Earth, or else they will live without shelter or food, is unacceptable to me.

2016 election was the tipping point. I realized what a joke liberalism is, and how it was largely about paying lip service to “progress” without critically engaging and analyzing the structures oppressing people. Ever since then I’ve felt that capitalism is killing us, killing the planet, and that we live in a society that resembles the one depicted in Blade Runner, except without the funky art design. The planet’s dying and ugly advertisements are inescapable thanks to modern technology.

I’m still learning and forming my “ideal” form of socialism. I’m not an anarchist, I don’t like the idea of abandoning the state wholesale but I don’t know how you can make the state’s MO not being protecting the interests of the rich. Reading about people like Marx and Lenin is worthwhile to some extent but I dislike how so many leftists seem to put all of their praxis faith in white dudes who wrote this stuff over 100 years ago. I want solutions, not theory. All I know is I don’t want capitalism to kill us and I’ll do whatever it takes to get us to transition out of it, even slowly (hence voting Bernie).

Looks like you’re (temp?) banned but I thought this might be good to write out, at least for myself to have a better understanding of my beliefs.
 
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Old_King_Coal

Member
Nov 1, 2017
139
I’m still learning and forming my “ideal” form of socialism. I’m not an anarchist, I don’t like the idea of abandoning the state wholesale but I don’t know how you can make the state’s MO not being protecting the interests of the rich. Reading about people like Marx and Lenin is worthwhile to some extent but I dislike how so many leftists seem to put all of their praxis faith in white dudes who wrote this stuff over 100 years ago. I want solutions, not theory. All I know is I don’t want capitalism to kill us and I’ll do whatever it takes to get us to transition out of it, even slowly (hence voting Bernie).
On this front, following along with the events in Northern Syria to see how the autonomous regions are doing is of interest, just to see whether that eventually stabilises into something great.
A whole bunch of different middle-eastern ethnicities there, trying to build some kinda socialism right in the middle of a bloody civil war, brick by brick.
 
Oct 25, 2017
469
i feel bad for this because it's probably going to make peoples' lives worse but Trudeau being a huge corrupt shithead who might lose after one term is extremely funny after poliera libs talking him up as The Way Forward You Childish Lefties
 

wonzo

Member
Oct 25, 2017
970
i feel bad for this because it's probably going to make peoples' lives worse but Trudeau being a huge corrupt shithead who might lose after one term is extremely funny after poliera libs talking him up as The Way Forward You Childish Lefties
its cool the cons are almost certain to win thanks to woke lib jesus trudeau running on electoral reform and ditching it the moment he won
 

Sibylus

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,335
i feel bad for this because it's probably going to make peoples' lives worse but Trudeau being a huge corrupt shithead who might lose after one term is extremely funny after poliera libs talking him up as The Way Forward You Childish Lefties
Stings that he turned around and torpedoed getting rid of fptp when it was becoming clear the people didn't want his preferred reform. Would have been some small measure of protection against this classic Liberal self-immolation for dumb fucking reasons.
 
Oct 25, 2017
754
yeah trudeau turned out to be a lot of hot air in terms of election reform/environment etc. Now we're gonna be stuck with the cons yet again.
 
Oct 27, 2017
3,210
i feel bad for this because it's probably going to make peoples' lives worse but Trudeau being a huge corrupt shithead who might lose after one term is extremely funny after poliera libs talking him up as The Way Forward You Childish Lefties

Poor Canada

America is always dragging you down the sewer with you in terms of political shittiness

Our stupidity is infectious apparently
 
Oct 25, 2017
469
i actually think first past the post is good and that canada's main problem with it is that part of its left supports the liberals but it is definitely funny to see trudeau basically do that thing where the greedy kid can't get the candy because his hand is stuck in the jar by grabbing too much

and the white supremacy
not gonna deny racism in canada which i'm sure is nearly as prevalent as it is in the us but afaik the conservatives actually can win decent parts of the immigrant/nonwhite vote. see also australia which is almost certainly as racist as the us but the liberals win the chinese-australian vote so i don't think i'd chock up trudeau losing to rising white nationalism

i'm willing to be corrected on this by actual canadians though
 
Oct 25, 2017
754
The left only votes for the libs cuz the NDP is in shambles and the libs have (or had) a better chance to win against harper.

And ppl vote for the cons cuz they're white and can afford to tough out 2-4 years of their rule before the libs get to come back in and play the saviours once again.
 

Sibylus

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,335
i actually think first past the post is good and that canada's main problem with it is that part of its left supports the liberals but it is definitely funny to see trudeau basically do that thing where the greedy kid can't get the candy because his hand is stuck in the jar by grabbing too much

not gonna deny racism in canada which i'm sure is nearly as prevalent as it is in the us but afaik the conservatives actually can win decent parts of the immigrant/nonwhite vote. see also australia which is almost certainly as racist as the us but the liberals win the chinese-australian vote so i don't think i'd chock up trudeau losing to rising white nationalism

i'm willing to be corrected on this by actual canadians though
Canada is basically a colonial state that pivoted from explicit white supremacy (in about the 60s or so, with Pierre Trudeau) to a pluralistic colonialism for more affluent minorities... if they don't happen to be native. The common denominator among most people is apathy or malice toward the survivors of the peoples we built a state on top of.
 
Oct 25, 2017
469
Canada is basically a colonial state that pivoted from explicit white supremacy (in about the 60s or so, with Pierre Trudeau) to a pluralistic colonialism for more affluent minorities... if they don't happen to be native. The common denominator among most people is apathy or malice toward the survivors of the peoples we built a state on top of.
yeah this is basically what I thought except I thought the turn started with Diefenbaker and Pearson, not Trudeau. Don't mean to say that it's not racist but rather that I don't think the conservatives are riding on a wave of white backlash in the same way a lot of other conservative parties in western democracies are.
is there a social democratic party with relevance in canada? or a socialist one?
the NDP is a social democratic party. it's never formed a government but it has supported minority liberal governments in the past (and is credited with creating their healthcare system) and has formed provincial governments in most (all?) provinces
 

Sibylus

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,335
yeah this is basically what I thought except I thought the turn started with Diefenbaker and Pearson, not Trudeau. Don't mean to say that it's not racist but rather that I don't think the conservatives are riding on a wave of white backlash in the same way a lot of other conservative parties in western democracies are.
the NDP is a social democratic party. it's never formed a government but it has supported minority liberal governments in the past (and is credited with creating their healthcare system) and has formed provincial governments in most (all?) provinces
You may be right on that, much of what I remember of Pearson is the whole blue helmets mythologizing in the wake of the Suez Crisis... and Diefenbaker was a footnote lol.
 

Iloelemen

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,323
That was released yesterday. Its 57,5% ( the lowest for a new president)
https://politica.estadao.com.br/noticias/geral,bolsonaro-tem-aprovacao-de-57-5-dos-brasileiros-diz-cnt,70002736383
Most people believe that if the ratings gets lower, they will kick him out, so the vice president gets in power (a retired general)
Wow, that's low compared to Duterte.

The thing that's very dissapointing with the most leftward and progressive in the Philippine government during 2016 was that they Supported Duterte, yes really, despite Duterte's bigotry and his promise of a bloody War on Drugs during the campaign.

Why, because Duterte was courting the left (and at the same time, also the right). On the left front, Duterte had history of being friendly with the Communist Party of the Philippines and the armed wing New People's army during his Davao mayoral days.


For the left in particular, he was saying how he was a socialist, how he was gonna end contractualization and, the most important one, how he was gonna have Peace talks with the Communist Party of the Philippines - National Democratic front (CPP-NDFP) and in which he promised to appoint positions picked by the CPP-NDFP, which was something the previous presidents have never done.

In fairness, the peace talks did occur, and CPP-picked left / progressive appointees did get, appointed, three of them (one in Social Welfare, one in Agragrian Reform, one in Poverty) and Duterte also hand-picked a progressive as a secretary for the Department of Enivronment and National Resources.

Two of the appointees got ousted by Congress due to.... conflicts of interest (the environment one immediately issued closure of tons of mining operations from private companies that violated environmental regulations) and the rest followed.
The Makabyan bloc, the left-wing coalition in the congress dropped their support for Duterte after this, but this was a year into his presidency, months after the start of the war on drugs, months after the Dictator Marcos got moved into the Burial for Heroes..
Sure, they criticized him during that period, but they were soft.

After that, the Makabayan bloc joined the opposition against Duterte and of course, they became way more critical of him where before, it was limited. The peace talks with the CPP-NDF ended after which, Duterte tagged them, and many left-wing groups and progressives as terrorists.

Since late 2017, the left have been very large critics of Duterte, but there was a period in time when they compromised and supported him due to the opportunity Duterte gave them (actual left-wing representation in high government positions). Heck during July 2016, the communist party of the Philippines as well as its armed wing, the Marxist-Lennist-Maoist insurgency in the form of the New People's Army offered help for the War on Drugs (which they withdrew the following month).They helped Duterte become president despite all the other things he was saying during his campaign and despite the existince of his Death Squad.
 

Eylos

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,863
Wow, that's low compared to Duterte.

The thing that's very dissapointing with the most leftward and progressive in the Philippine government during 2016 was that they Supported Duterte, yes really, despite Duterte's bigotry and his promise of a bloody War on Drugs during the campaign.

Why, because Duterte was courting the left (and at the same time, also the right). On the left front, Duterte had history of being friendly with the Communist Party of the Philippines and the armed wing New People's army during his Davao mayoral days.


For the left in particular, he was saying how he was a socialist, how he was gonna end contractualization and, the most important one, how he was gonna have Peace talks with the Communist Party of the Philippines - National Democratic front (CPP-NDFP) and in which he promised to appoint positions picked by the CPP-NDFP, which was something the previous presidents have never done.

In fairness, the peace talks did occur, and CPP-picked left / progressive appointees did get, appointed, three of them (one in Social Welfare, one in Agragrian Reform, one in Poverty) and Duterte also hand-picked a progressive as a secretary for the Department of Enivronment and National Resources.

Two of the appointees got ousted by Congress due to.... conflicts of interest (the environment one immediately issued closure of tons of mining operations from private companies that violated environmental regulations) and the rest followed.
The Makabyan bloc, the left-wing coalition in the congress dropped their support for Duterte after this, but this was a year into his presidency, months after the start of the war on drugs, months after the Dictator Marcos got moved into the Burial for Heroes..
Sure, they criticized him during that period, but they were soft.

After that, the Makabayan bloc joined the opposition against Duterte and of course, they became way more critical of him where before, it was limited. The peace talks with the CPP-NDF ended after which, Duterte tagged them, and many left-wing groups and progressives as terrorists.

Since late 2017, the left have been very large critics of Duterte, but there was a period in time when they compromised and supported him due to the opportunity Duterte gave them (actual left-wing representation in high government positions). Heck during July 2016, the communist party of the Philippines as well as its armed wing, the Marxist-Lennist-Maoist insurgency in the form of the New People's Army offered help for the War on Drugs (which they withdrew the following month).They helped Duterte become president despite all the other things he was saying during his campaign and despite the existince of his Death Squad.
this made me remember something of brazil history before the dictatorship of 1964 existed another one from 1937-1946, the vargas Dictatorship, he was a nationalist, anti-communist, the reason of his coup was a fake "communist coup" he created. Many communists at that time got in jail, the most notorious one is Luis Carlos Prestes (Captain of the army and later Senator by the communist party, Pablo Neruda created a poem to him), and his german jew wife Olga (who was sent for brazil by the USSR to protect Prestes) she was pregnant of Prestes and even so, they deported her to Nazi germany to a concentration camp and later she got killed in a gas chamber (the baby was saved, btw there's a good movie about her).
So Vargas was a dictator that even though all that, he created the labour legislation in brazil, created a bunch of important national companies, and kicked out the oligarchy in power.
In 1945 Prestes supported Getulio the man responsible for deporting his wife to be killed and for him to be locked up, because the oposition sucked and was elitist while Vargas someone that hated commies supported the workers and was nationalist against US imperialism. Even today Vargas appears as one of the most liked historical figures in brazil.
Its very hard to give support sometimes its a hard gamble and contradictory because of the fucked up political scenario.
 
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Oct 25, 2017
469
this made me remember something of brazil history before the dictatorship of 1964 existed another one from 1937-1946, the vargas Dictatorship, he was a nationalist, anti-communist, the reason of his coup was a fake "communist coup" he created. Many communists at that time got in jail, the most notorious one is Luis Carlos Prestes (Captain of the army and later Senator by the communist party, Pablo Neruda created a poem to him), and his german jew wife Olga (who was sent for brazil by the USSR to protect Prestes) she was pregnant of Prestes and even so, they deported her to Nazi germany to a concentration camp and later she got killed in a gas chamber (the baby was saved, btw there's a good movie about her).
So Vargas was a dictator that even though all that, he created the labour legislation in brazil, created a bunch of important national companies, and kicked out the oligarchy in power.
In 1945 Prestes supported Getulio the man responsible for deporting his wife to be killed and for him to be locked up, because the oposition sucked and was elitist while Vargas someone that hated commies supported the workers and was nationalist against US imperialism. Even today Vargas appears as one of the most liked historical figures in brazil.
Its very hard to give support sometimes its a hard gamble and contradictory because of the fucked up political scenario.
I thought Brazil was pretty strongly-aligned with the US during his time in power, is that wrong?
 

Eylos

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,863
I thought Brazil was pretty strongly-aligned with the US during his time in power, is that wrong?
he was a complicated man, he flirted with brazilian fascism, and nazi germany was a partner for a long time until 1941(if i'm not mistaken) then brazil declared war against germany because of attacks against brazilian ships, so with that US backed brazil army to fight in italy.
He's without a doubt a populist nationalist even if he sided with US in the war, and US was a good partner, he wanted to develop brazil industry and to turn the country in an important international actor.