Socialism |OT| The Dawn of a Red Era

What tendency/ideology do you best align with?

  • Anarchism

    Votes: 37 17.4%
  • Marxism

    Votes: 18 8.5%
  • Marxism-Leninism

    Votes: 7 3.3%
  • Left Communism

    Votes: 7 3.3%
  • Democratic Socialism

    Votes: 80 37.6%
  • Social Democracy

    Votes: 52 24.4%
  • Other

    Votes: 12 5.6%

  • Total voters
    213

curly

Member
Oct 27, 2017
42
So the local DSA chapter I'm kind of part of (too far away to go to many events) is forming a committee to investigate the NPC about the Bernie endorsement/potential independent campaign and I'm confused as hell
 

samoyed

Member
Oct 26, 2017
9,975
What are your thoughts on universal basic income?
I'm in line with Old_king_coal here. There's a real possibility (in my mind) that UBI is used by capitalist interests to preserve the status quo, so that doesn't make UBI good or bad per se, what matters is the goal beyond UBI. Just having it isn't enough, it needs to be part of the dismantling of capitalism.
So the local DSA chapter I'm kind of part of (too far away to go to many events) is forming a committee to investigate the NPC about the Bernie endorsement/potential independent campaign and I'm confused as hell
NPC?

What's this endorsement/potential independent campaign thing?
 

curly

Member
Oct 27, 2017
42
I'm in line with Old_king_coal here. There's a real possibility (in my mind) that UBI is used by capitalist interests to preserve the status quo, so that doesn't make UBI good or bad per se, what matters is the goal beyond UBI. Just having it isn't enough, it needs to be part of the dismantling of capitalism.

NPC?

What's this endorsement/potential independent campaign thing?
National Political Committee

DSA's NPC had a straw poll via email that asked the membership whether to endorse Bernie. I believe 76% voted yes, but there was a fair amount of talk about how the process was badly done, they should have waited until the national convention this summer, the NPC wanted this outcome all along and just consulted the membership as a formality.

The other (and imo larger) issue is whether the DSA should actually have a formal campaign for Bernie. I know nothing about electoral law but from what I understand there would be a lot of issues with an independent campaign: it would cost a ton of money just to buy access to voter info and there could be no coordination with the official Bernie campaign, possibly making it impossible to both work for Bernie's campaign and the DSA one.

Personally I don't care about endorsing Bernie (everyone who cares about DSA's opinion is already voting for him) and don't see what good an independent campaign would accomplish (seems like people should just go work for him directly). I guess there's some logic to running a leftist shadow campaign to use the attention Bernie generates and redirect it towards more radical ends but there's so many practical difficulties that it seems like a waste of time and energy.
 
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sphagnum

sphagnum

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,011
I feel like it would be a better use of resources to push for more Congressional seats if they want to pursue electoralism, rather than toss all their eggs in the Bernie basket. If he loses, they look bad, but at least they might get more AOC's and Tlaibs for the future. If he wins, he has more allies on the hill.
 

curly

Member
Oct 27, 2017
42
That makes more strategic sense given a realistic assessment of DSA's size and strength but I don't know if it would still run afoul of election law. I don't know if DSA as an organization actually campaigned for AOC.
 
Oct 25, 2017
2,590
Need some lexicon help. “Critical support” in a Marxist context means to support something even though it’s subject to class criticism? Like say, supporting the ACA even though it doesn’t actually socialize healthcare?
 

Eylos

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,993
Need some lexicon help. “Critical support” in a Marxist context means to support something even though it’s subject to class criticism? Like say, supporting the ACA even though it doesn’t actually socialize healthcare?
critical support over here is used in this sense "we dont fully agree with X person/group/idea, and we have critics against it, but in this context its the best viable option"
 

quickly

Member
Mar 8, 2018
1,004
I'm reading Sakai's Settlers on the recommendation of internet Maoists, and while I understand the book has received some deserved criticism (prominently, it's strict application of the labor aristocracy thesis, lack of academic rigor, and dead-end politics), I have trouble recommending the book to people without a background in postcolonial and socialist thought. Is there a similar book (i.e, one that goes through the same history) that I could recommend to sympathetic liberals or socialists without having to babysit their reading with caveats about Sakai's political conclusions?
 
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sphagnum

sphagnum

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,011
I'm reading Sakai's Settlers on the recommendation of internet Maoists, and while I understand the book has received some deserved criticism (prominently, it's strict application of the labor aristocracy thesis, lack of academic rigor, and dead-end politics), I have trouble recommending the book to people without a background in postcolonial and socialist thought. Is there a similar book (i.e, one that goes through the same history) that I could recommend to sympathetic liberals or socialists without having to babysit their reading with caveats about Sakai's political conclusions?
Do you mean something about settler colonialism in general?
 

Mekanos

Member
Oct 17, 2018
14,058
I went to a Bernie Sanders rally in Los Angeles and was somewhat surprised to see people at the entrance handing out communist newspapers.

It was interesting to see the man himself openly criticize things like the military industrial complex, which isn't something I expected a presidential candidate to ever do in my lifetime.
 

quickly

Member
Mar 8, 2018
1,004
Do you mean something about settler colonialism in general?
Yeah - but mostly in relation to the colonization of North America and labor struggles. I'm hesitant to recommend the book to some people simply because many could easily ignore the narrative in favor of criticizing Sakai's writing style, politics, historical methodology, or whatever - the book is controversial for this and other reasons, but is otherwise one of the more engaging and readable leftists texts I've encountered.
 

Rupetta

Member
Oct 27, 2017
960
Boston/Helsinki
Yeah - but mostly in relation to the colonization of North America and labor struggles. I'm hesitant to recommend the book to some people simply because many could easily ignore the narrative in favor of criticizing Sakai's writing style, politics, historical methodology, or whatever - the book is controversial for this and other reasons, but is otherwise one of the more engaging and readable leftists texts I've encountered.
Have you read Patrick Wolfe's 'Traces of History - Elementary structures of race'? It is considered accessible and is a much better take on decoloniality and marxism than Sakai. But I realize "accessible" comes in different forms depending on the context of the readers...
 

House_Of_Lightning

Self-requested ban
Banned
Oct 29, 2017
5,048
A preferred method for me is to take a significant section of the economy out of capitalist control to provide universal basic services free at the point of use. Housing, transportation, healthcare, food, energy (and other utilities), education, care, all free at the point of use.
This is still capitalism. The State is just the substitute for the human Capitalist. None of it is "free" as it is all being paid for by value extracted from labor.
 

quickly

Member
Mar 8, 2018
1,004
Have you read Patrick Wolfe's 'Traces of History - Elementary structures of race'? It is considered accessible and is a much better take on decoloniality and marxism than Sakai. But I realize "accessible" comes in different forms depending on the context of the readers...
I haven't, but it reviews pretty well and isn't too expensive. Thanks for the recommendation! I will check it out.

Like how they just make things up wholesale?

Settler's is one of the best examples of not reading Marx and not understanding Lenin or Mao.

FWIW, Sakai has walked back Settlers himself.
For what it's worth, I was trying to find a politic (hi, intersection of ResetEra and Rhizzone posters) way of saying something like: (what I have read of) Settlers presents an important and provocative narrative of colonial and labor history based on selective interpretation of the historical record and crude application of historical materialism, and think some MSNBC-types I know would appreciate reading something like it, but hesitate in making the recommendation for the reasons listed above. My knowledge of postcolonial and anti-imperial theory doesn't extend much beyond the standard ML and literary theory stuff you get from reading philosophy at a left-wing university.
 

TheHunter

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,539
What a fascinating corner of Era.

Hi sphagnum! Don't mind me just starting to read and get to know leftist thought better so I'll probably pop in here every now and then.
 

BuddyDharma

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,712
I haven't, but it reviews pretty well and isn't too expensive. Thanks for the recommendation! I will check it out.



For what it's worth, I was trying to find a politic (hi, intersection of ResetEra and Rhizzone posters) way of saying something like: (what I have read of) Settlers presents an important and provocative narrative of colonial and labor history based on selective interpretation of the historical record and crude application of historical materialism, and think some MSNBC-types I know would appreciate reading something like it, but hesitate in making the recommendation for the reasons listed above. My knowledge of postcolonial and anti-imperial theory doesn't extend much beyond the standard ML and literary theory stuff you get from reading philosophy at a left-wing university.
Never heard of Rhizzone before. I just spent a few hours on it and had major flashbacks to my days on Luelinks/ETI. I forgot what it was like to wade into ceaseless ironic shitposting a dozen layers deep.
 

Ogodei

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
8,243
Coruscant
It's weird until you realize Japan's Communist party is like, the 3rd largest in the world IIRC.

Shame the populace is so completely conditioned to being politically indifferent(thanks in large part to decades of influence from capital to keep labor in it's place) for it to ever take a major hold.
Several prominent anime creators are basically Communist, such as Go Nagai and Miyazaki.

But yes, Japan is a very conservative society compared even to most industrialized countries.
 

Frozenprince

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
9,008
Miyazaki kinda renounced it. The Japanese Communist Party is pretty much your typical dem soc party.
Miyazaki has had a very weird political history.

They're definitely the traditional dem soc party with Communist branding, but they're a starting point for a country that's in dire need of a labor first party of any kind. They at least have tacit avocations for positive labor laws. The conservatives are quite literally going to destroy the country rather than cede any real form of social or societal control from capital.

Though electoralism is a non-starter in Japan in the first place. Even just living there for a year that was easy enough to see. The general public there is just thoroughly and utterly beaten down and apathetic.
 

Ogodei

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
8,243
Coruscant
Miyazaki has had a very weird political history.

They're definitely the traditional dem soc party with Communist branding, but they're a starting point for a country that's in dire need of a labor first party of any kind. They at least have tacit avocations for positive labor laws. The conservatives are quite literally going to destroy the country rather than cede any real form of social or societal control from capital.

Though electoralism is a non-starter in Japan in the first place. Even just living there for a year that was easy enough to see. The general public there is just thoroughly and utterly beaten down and apathetic.
Neo-confucianism overshadows pretty much any political system that is adopted in a society that adheres to neo-confucian values. It's why Japan has simultaneously such a strong democracy while being functionally a one-party state, or how easily Maoism in China devolved into its current authoritarian-corporatist form. Neo-confucianism by its very nature deadens social dynamism.
 

samoyed

Member
Oct 26, 2017
9,975
Interesting, I never considered the effects of confucianism, neo or otherwise, on communism. This makes a lot of sense.
 

Frozenprince

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
9,008
Neo-confucianism overshadows pretty much any political system that is adopted in a society that adheres to neo-confucian values. It's why Japan has simultaneously such a strong democracy while being functionally a one-party state, or how easily Maoism in China devolved into its current authoritarian-corporatist form. Neo-confucianism by its very nature deadens social dynamism.
Which itself was given a massive advent due to the lost decade very early in Heisei and why Komeito and LDP surged back and have maintained an iron grip on power since functionally the end of the war. You cannot relate the struggle of the proletariat when you have a Confucian base. The faux-humanist individualism created through Neo-Confucianism is anathema to mass action and the collective self. It's also why the nation is such a weird dichotomy of nationalist fervor and individualist societal functions. And the strength of the state despite the apathy of the populace for mass movement or politics.
 

Shy

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
14,111
I don't really hear people bring up the long shadow of Confucianism when talking about China and Japan. Good stuffs.
 

Eylos

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,993
I was going to mention (i think i have in the past *shrug* ) that about the Japanese communist party.

What did Miyazaki renounce ?
quoting myself
In the anime topic, made me rembember of this Miyzaki interview i have seen on internet
http://pages.citebite.com/n1r2l0s7w6abj


Question: After watching this movie, we awake to a socialistic justice, as if democratic socialism should now be reviewed.

Miyazaki: How can we go in peace without any dictators? The biggest bet of humankind to that question was socialism. It was grown in Europe during the 19th century and tested during the 20th century. As a result, it failed. We got to know there is no paradise on the earth.
I believe paradise only exists in the memories of our childhood. Because of that, many social movements that aim to make a paradise always end up failing. So we must accept that our world isn't a paradise. That is something which is too bitter for us though. That is why mankind created some ways to comfort themselves with several virtual ways.

Still, we necessarily need to acknowledge the reality that "There is no paradise on earth and around it". Around 1970, an Economics Minister of Sweden visited Japan and gave a speech. I watched it on TV and was much touched by it. He said, "There is no paradise on earth and around it. On the acknowledgment of that, we must think what nations can do and play a role." I was struck with his realism. Without realism, nations often make huge mistakes. Japanese stratocracy fell in a big mistake for a few decades because they lost realism.
At that time in the UK, WW2 ended and it was the beginning of the cold war. People had a fear for WW3 and nuclear bombs and also felt a crisis for the Soviet Union and communism. George Orwell noticed that and wrote Animal Farm and 1984. Halas and Batchelor must have had the same thoughts as Orwell. Halas was a Jew from Hungary. I guess he exiled himself from Hungary and went to the UK. During the war his homeland was occupied by the Nazis and after that by the Soviet Union. A totalitarian tyranny existed there and he surely felt such a reality in Animal Farm. Animal Farm had a nowadays theme for him. I think he wanted to depict the ugliness of dictatorship.
However, exploitation is not only found in communism, capitalism is a system just like that. I believe a company is common property of the people that work there. But that is a socialistic idea. Nowadays, American style capitalism has become mainstream. The stock holders have voices and change managers to get more profit in the current term. In addition to that, they downsize or restructure regular employees and enlarge temporary workers and part time workers. For them, temporary workers are just disposable. On the other hand, regular employees also are completely exhausted in hard work. Such a system is quite Animal Farm like.
Its scheme used to be common sense to the world. Now, everyone has forgotten about that. Everyone assumes he or she is in middle-class and blinded by the mechanism of exploitation. At a time, during the economic growth after the war, business managers also had to work hard. Because of its graduated taxation, the income gap In Japan was small. Before the bubble years, our society was like that and they didn’t feel the reality on exploitation. But all were crushed by the burst bubble. Lifelong employment and seniority system were thrown away. Efficiency pay and target settings were brought. In my opinion these efficiency pays will bring workers nervous diseases. It is obvious that talented people must do their best at work without thinking about its return. Don’t work for money. Actually, we need money though… anyway, we’ve thought that “Work is one’s partner for life”….
Europe got disenchanted in socialism during the Spanish Civil War in 1936. During that war, not only socialists but also anarchists, democrats and several movements gathered in the people front. In the war, they were betrayed by Soviet Union. It was a big experience for George Orwell and he wrote “Homage to Catalonia” as a betrayed revolution. As they got to know more about the reality of the Soviet Union, progressive young people broke down with socialism. After WW2, the communists in France and Italy looked for ways of democratic socialism. At last, Europeans reached to EU. It isn’t built by the socialists though, that is the only way to survive for Europeans.
Can we build democratic socialism? If it is possible, then I believe it can exist on the opposite side of globalism. In that sense I mean local production for local consumption. The wave of things like slow food or slow life comes more than once. That is kind of that. The desire of humans must be controlled. The idea that human desire can be grown infinitely must be changed at the moment when they get to know that the resources of the earth are finite.
My little wish is to wear domestically produced underwear. Maybe there are some if we pay enough. However, all underwear that can be purchased for reasonable price are all from China….

Question: There are some counterviews against the changing of the ending though. John Halas told that he wanted to give the audience hope for the future.

I agree. If they raise a revolution or a coup d'etat and exile the dictator and try to build an ideal world, then they soon will find a new dictator appearing in it. That is something history can easily show us. Despite of this, we should stand up again and again. I mean we have a right to revolt.To speak of my own private concern, during the 1960s I was very active in the labor union. I don’t intend to say our activity was good or wrong. However, it was better to do than to do nothing, knowing human often makes mistakes. Recently young people begin independent labor unions. Revolutions should be raised everywhere.

-----

It seems to me he used to be a socialist in his youth in the labour union, but it looks like he lost hope about it, he seems by the end of the first question to still have a favorable opinion and likes democratic socialism, but he's not sure its possible, i believe.

"I believe a company is common property of the people that work there. But that is a socialistic idea"
 

TheRedSnifit

Member
Oct 29, 2017
4,001
What are your thoughts on universal basic income?
There are some really glass half empty takes on UBI from communists I know because, I think, it exposes a weakness of their rhetoric, which is that communists try to sell the workers on "seizing the means of production" and I honestly believe that a majority of workers want the products from the means of production, they don't really care about owning the means of production. Your average worker couldn't care less whether he gets the products from the means of production through some kind of socialist distribution scheme where the means are owned collectively or if the government just taxes the means of production quite a bit more than they are taxed now and the workers get the products from the means of production that way, so naturally the more politically attainable goal becomes more popular. Some hate it because it would take the wind out of the sails of their agenda of collective ownership but... honestly, the world the way it is today, slip sliding to fascism far far faster than to the left, I honestly don't think there's some big loss there because it's not like communism is particularly popular today.

I'll add a further point that the UBI is likely to be more popular today because a savvy politician can frame it as a tax on automation, rightwingers are going to have a hard time making people feel sorry for machines. The only concession I would make is that it shouldn't be framed as some kind of panacea. UBI, in a vacuum, could actually make climate change worse or increase various costs of living because market forces are allowed to continue unchecked.
 
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wonzo

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,144
i get the impression miyazaki's more of an ecosocialist now. iirc he was inspired to make his new movie named after an old japanese commie book because of the successes of abe and trump and his utter hatred of nationalism and fascism
 
Oct 25, 2017
518
Neo-confucianism overshadows pretty much any political system that is adopted in a society that adheres to neo-confucian values. It's why Japan has simultaneously such a strong democracy while being functionally a one-party state, or how easily Maoism in China devolved into its current authoritarian-corporatist form. Neo-confucianism by its very nature deadens social dynamism.
uh I don't think Confucian values are taken seriously as an explanation of LDP dominance anywhere. The LDP benefit from a fractured left and the fact that the JSP was more radical than any comparable socialist party in the west and created clientelistic networks to game the SNTV districts. After electoral reform in the 90s it benefit by the implosion of the only strongly institutionalized opposition party (the JSP) and when it lost to DPJ it was basically at the worst possible time for an inexperienced opposition party to take power. The LDP is also highly pragmatic and isn't consistently a harsh austere party (though figures like Koizumi are)

Even if you just look at the other two democracies in East Asia the argument becomes suspect. Taiwan and South Korea frequently change the party in government.
 

Atrophis

Member
Oct 25, 2017
703
Notts, UK
Never heard of Rhizzone before. I just spent a few hours on it and had major flashbacks to my days on Luelinks/ETI. I forgot what it was like to wade into ceaseless ironic shitposting a dozen layers deep.
The Rhizzones forums are pretty much unreadable. Not that surprising considering its an offshoot of a closed down somethingawful forum.

Just stick to the posts that get added to the front page.
 

House_Of_Lightning

Self-requested ban
Banned
Oct 29, 2017
5,048
There are some really glass half empty takes on UBI from communists I know because, I think, it exposes a weakness of their rhetoric, which is that communists try to sell the workers on "seizing the means of production" and I honestly believe that a majority of workers want the products from the means of production, they don't really care about owning the means of production.
This is largely a take I can get behind. "Seize the means" or "Democratically control the means" of production doesn't mean anything in the long run as the worker won't see any real change to their method of production. They produce commodity now under a wage, when they "own" the means of production they still produce the commodity under a wage. Various working coops owning their own specific capital but in the aim of still producing commodity doesn't drastically change anyone's relation to capital and their own self reliance still depends on the production of other labor groups.

The idea is that once the working class has direct control over capital then the drive to endlessly produce disposable commodities would become antiquated. Commodity fetishism will end along with the impetus to produce them.

Socialism is to abolish the wage and its social relations. Simply being your own boss doesn't fundamentally change this.


Zizek has a pretty good essay somewhere about the struggles of deeply religious societies merely adopting their religious and patriarchal values into a secular religion. So maybe it's less "Confucian Values" and simply the inability for a young, new society to cast off their ritual habits even though they've forgotten their superstitions.


What did Miyazaki renounce ?

At one point his rhetoric was much more socialist. I'm not "expert" but I think his rhetoric as of late has been more of more humane and responsible capitalism.
 

Spuck-

Banned
Nov 7, 2017
996
No offense taken.

I enjoy the podcast quite a bit. In high school I was a Libertarian jerk-off. GAF/Era and Reddit have really opened my eyes to things over the years. This is the next step, and some very light reading for me.



Baby steps it is, lol.
LTTP but I always tell people that Capitalist Realism is really worth a read. It's a short, modern book, that may depress you a little, but it's a real eye opener.
 

Ogodei

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
8,243
Coruscant
uh I don't think Confucian values are taken seriously as an explanation of LDP dominance anywhere. The LDP benefit from a fractured left and the fact that the JSP was more radical than any comparable socialist party in the west and created clientelistic networks to game the SNTV districts. After electoral reform in the 90s it benefit by the implosion of the only strongly institutionalized opposition party (the JSP) and when it lost to DPJ it was basically at the worst possible time for an inexperienced opposition party to take power. The LDP is also highly pragmatic and isn't consistently a harsh austere party (though figures like Koizumi are)

Even if you just look at the other two democracies in East Asia the argument becomes suspect. Taiwan and South Korea frequently change the party in government.
Thanks for the insight. There's a lot I'd like to learn about Japanese politics, which seems so stale at the top but has so much going on under the surface.

I often hesitate to make culturally deterministic arguments and the contrast with Taiwan and South Korea is important, I just feel like there's something in the Japanese body politic that makes their electorate so relentlessly disengaged. The reality might be mundane but it feels like something is unique there.
 
Oct 25, 2017
518
Thanks for the insight. There's a lot I'd like to learn about Japanese politics, which seems so stale at the top but has so much going on under the surface.

I often hesitate to make culturally deterministic arguments and the contrast with Taiwan and South Korea is important, I just feel like there's something in the Japanese body politic that makes their electorate so relentlessly disengaged. The reality might be mundane but it feels like something is unique there.
Japan *is* really interesting but it's also had active and involved movements including student protests, environmental protests, recent LGBT rights protests, etc.

Italy is actually fairly similar to Japan in a lot of ways though. The Christian democrats dominated for virtually the entire postwar era and benefit from the left being fractured between the too-radical PCI and more mainstream socialists which is pretty similar to the Japanese left's fracture between the anticommunist Democratic Socialists and the more radical JSP which prevented a stronger opposition from forming. Both also have more corporatist economic structures (though I don't think Italy's businesses are as concentrated as the zaibatsu) and both have struggled more than most of the major developed economies since the 90s. The major difference I guess is that Christian Democracy imploded and has left Italian politics a chaotic mess of parties since whereas the LDP has managed to survive.
 

curly

Member
Oct 27, 2017
42
What are some good introductory texts on Maoism/third worldism? I was reading this pretty devastating takedown of Bhakshar Sunkara's new "manifesto" and I realized all of my knowledge of it comes secondhand. Obviously Mao I guess but which writings are best?
 

House_Of_Lightning

Self-requested ban
Banned
Oct 29, 2017
5,048
On one hand lol at DSA eating at one of our most expensive and absolutely not good fried chicke places


But on the other Fuck Alex Jones.
 

quickly

Member
Mar 8, 2018
1,004
Never heard of Rhizzone before. I just spent a few hours on it and had major flashbacks to my days on Luelinks/ETI. I forgot what it was like to wade into ceaseless ironic shitposting a dozen layers deep.
Marx was a top-tier shitposter (Capital, Vol I.24):

Karl Marx said:
Bentham is among philosophers what Martin Tupper is among poets. Both could only have been manufactured in England [50].

50. Bentham is a purely English phenomenon. Not even excepting our philosopher, Christian Wolff, in no time and in no country has the most homespun commonplace ever strutted about in so self-satisfied a way. The principle of utility was no discovery of Bentham. He simply reproduced in his dull way what Helvétius and other Frenchmen had said with esprit in the 18th century. To know what is useful for a dog, one must study dog-nature. This nature itself is not to be deduced from the principle of utility. Applying this to man, he that would criticise all human acts, movements, relations, etc., by the principle of utility, must first deal with human nature in general, and then with human nature as modified in each historical epoch. Bentham makes short work of it. With the driest naiveté he takes the modern shopkeeper, especially the English shopkeeper, as the normal man. Whatever is useful to this queer normal man, and to his world, is absolutely useful. This yard-measure, then, he applies to past, present, and future. The Christian religion, e.g., is “useful,” “because it forbids in the name of religion the same faults that the penal code condemns in the name of the law.” Artistic criticism is “harmful,” because it disturbs worthy people in their enjoyment of Martin Tupper, etc. With such rubbish has the brave fellow, with his motto, “nuila dies sine line!,” piled up mountains of books. Had I the courage of my friend, Heinrich Heine, I should call Mr. Jeremy a genius in the way of bourgeois stupidity.
 
Oct 27, 2017
4,044
Ummmmmmmmmmmmmm

Not sure if the stanning of the Soviet Union on the chapo subreddit front page is ironic or unironic but I think that in a world where the kulaks thing happen, not sure I can abide by that
 

Deffers

Member
Mar 4, 2018
1,971
Ummmmmmmmmmmmmm

Not sure if the stanning of the Soviet Union on the chapo subreddit front page is ironic or unironic but I think that in a world where the kulaks thing happen, not sure I can abide by that
There's a lot of that shit around. My first posts in this thread were getting advice on a friend of mine who got into Holodomor apologism and the kind of anti-US-imperialism stances that get you saying shit like "Assad was democratically elected." Shit like that is pretty prevalent in socialist circles unironically, which is why worthwhile socialist spaces tend to show naked contempt for tankie garbage. It's also why I don't tend to like gulag jokes.

Places that "ironically" stan for the USSR draw people who unironically stan for the USSR sooner or later. Similar principles to what happens with Youtubers or the chans, just with radical politics.
 
Oct 27, 2017
4,044
There's a lot of that shit around. My first posts in this thread were getting advice on a friend of mine who got into Holodomor apologism and the kind of anti-US-imperialism stances that get you saying shit like "Assad was democratically elected." Shit like that is pretty prevalent in socialist circles unironically, which is why worthwhile socialist spaces tend to show naked contempt for tankie garbage. It's also why I don't tend to like gulag jokes.

Places that "ironically" stan for the USSR draw people who unironically stan for the USSR sooner or later. Similar principles to what happens with Youtubers or the chans, just with radical politics.

I agree
 
Oct 27, 2017
4,044
The militarism that was prevalent in the soviet union during the cold war (especially it's hey day) is something that I'm uncomfortable reconciling in my brain because yeah they had to be militaristic because of the World War 2 but that's it still being seen as dismissed by tankies and USSR stans as whatever is nonstarter because as a DemSoc the thing I want more is discouraging imperialism and militaristic mindset and there is excusing that