Socialism |OT| The Dawn of a Red Era

[sphagnum]

In theory, I don't care about an individual's personal beliefs so long as they support policies that are going to dismantle hierarchies. We are dealing with systems, not individuals. It's not like Marx was a paragon of socially left wing opinions in a modern sense. However, it's very rare for a person to hold socially reactionary beliefs and not want them to be implemented, so in real life it's likely that someone who is anti-capitalist but socially conservative is going to be a Nazbol or something.

That said, it doesn't matter whether anyone calls themselves socialist or not in the end. You could have seven billion socialists and never achieve socialism. What matters is the struggle between capitalist and worker.

If I may echo one thing that I agree with House of Lightning on (when he still posted here), the concern is not socialism-as-an-ideology, it's socialism-as-a-structure.

 

[lmcfigs]

just embarrassing. Even Bernie's plan recognizes that it is a supply problem. And frankly national rent control is such a bad idea anyway.

 

[Chikor]

So I'm a little confused. When exactly can someone be considered a "real" socialist? Is it enough to "merely" advocate for the basic tenets like equal/fair redistribution of wealth, and workers seizing the means of production, or are there also other fundamentals that one must adhere to before one is a socialist at heart?

The reason I'm asking is because this morning I stumbled upon a Reddit post where this person claimed to be economically left (as in abolishing today's capitalism, state-owning the most important aspects of the economy in order to offer everyone guaranteed access to basic human needs, etc.), but at the same time claimed to be socially conservative (specifically opposing LGBT+ rights). He or she emphasized not having any racist feelings whatsoever, even saying {paraphrasing here} systemic and institutionalized racism is a capitalist's tool for division, and that comrades should come from all colors, ethnicities, and backgrounds.

The thread got deleted, probably because the timing was a bit conspicuous, but regardless it struck me as an odd combination. Most of left-wing people tend to be left-wing all across the board, both socially as well as economically, but it made me think if it's possible to be a conservative socialist or whatever you'd call it? We already have the term liberal or just lib (albeit in a derogatory way) for socially left but economically center or even (center-right) people, but is there a term for the opposite? And how do you view these people?

Click to shrink...

Socialism and social conservatism are two pretty much orthogonal axes.
One hope that a more equatable society will lead to a more tolerant one, and there is some evidence that this something that happens, but those are separate issues.

Personally, I'm not much into that label game, though I do make the point that people who are capitalists (like social democrats) have deep, structural disagreements with socialist core beliefs, at leas as I understand them.

 

[Mekanos]

So I'm a little confused. When exactly can someone be considered a "real" socialist? Is it enough to "merely" advocate for the basic tenets like equal/fair redistribution of wealth, and workers seizing the means of production, or are there also other fundamentals that one must adhere to before one is a socialist at heart?

The reason I'm asking is because this morning I stumbled upon a Reddit post where this person claimed to be economically left (as in abolishing today's capitalism, state-owning the most important aspects of the economy in order to offer everyone guaranteed access to basic human needs, etc.), but at the same time claimed to be socially conservative (specifically opposing LGBT+ rights). He or she emphasized not having any racist feelings whatsoever, even saying {paraphrasing here} systemic and institutionalized racism is a capitalist's tool for division, and that comrades should come from all colors, ethnicities, and backgrounds.

The thread got deleted, probably because the timing was a bit conspicuous, but regardless it struck me as an odd combination. Most of left-wing people tend to be left-wing all across the board, both socially as well as economically, but it made me think if it's possible to be a conservative socialist or whatever you'd call it? We already have the term liberal or just lib (albeit in a derogatory way) for socially left but economically center or even (center-right) people, but is there a term for the opposite? And how do you view these people?

Click to shrink...

That person was probably either a fascist troll looking to stir the pot or a tankie. Neither is a good look. Socially conservative values are upheld by capitalism and right-wing economic policies.

The other reading is "people like me should be free, but I don't give a shit about others." Which is basically a tenet of fascism.

 

[Chikor]

That person was probably either a fascist troll looking to stir the pot or a tankie. Neither is a good look. Socially conservative values are upheld by capitalism and right-wing economic policies.

The other reading is "people like me should be free, but I don't give a shit about others." Which is basically a tenet of fascism.

Click to shrink...

There are homophobic socialists, there are homophobic everything really.
I don't think homophobia is a specific problem of the left or socialism that needs to be addressed in a specific way (i.e. outside the broad context of being anti-homophobic , pro LGBTQ rights and general inclusiveness), but I don't think pretending that those that do are either fascists running false flag operation or """"tankies"""" is the way to go either.

 

[Mekanos]

There are homophobic socialists, there are homophobic everything really.
I don't think homophobia is a specific problem of the left or socialism that needs to be addressed in a specific way (i.e. outside the broad context of being anti-homophobic , pro LGBTQ rights and general inclusiveness), but I don't think pretending that those that do are either fascists running false flag operation or """"tankies"""" is the way to go either.

Click to shrink...

Right, I would say generically homophobic socialists fall into "people like me should be free, but I don't give a shit about others." Which makes them susceptible to fascism.

 

[manchego obfuscator]

just embarrassing. Even Bernie's plan recognizes that it is a supply problem. And frankly national rent control is such a bad idea anyway.

Click to shrink...

well, I agree that it's a bad tweet and that more supply is needed, at least. they need to do a better job with their social media, I don't really think the idea that it's not a supply issue at all is widely held within the membership

 

[Snowy]

So I'm a little confused. When exactly can someone be considered a "real" socialist? Is it enough to "merely" advocate for the basic tenets like equal/fair redistribution of wealth, and workers seizing the means of production, or are there also other fundamentals that one must adhere to before one is a socialist at heart?

The reason I'm asking is because this morning I stumbled upon a Reddit post where this person claimed to be economically left (as in abolishing today's capitalism, state-owning the most important aspects of the economy in order to offer everyone guaranteed access to basic human needs, etc.), but at the same time claimed to be socially conservative (specifically opposing LGBT+ rights). He or she emphasized not having any racist feelings whatsoever, even saying {paraphrasing here} systemic and institutionalized racism is a capitalist's tool for division, and that comrades should come from all colors, ethnicities, and backgrounds.

The thread got deleted, probably because the timing was a bit conspicuous, but regardless it struck me as an odd combination. Most of left-wing people tend to be left-wing all across the board, both socially as well as economically, but it made me think if it's possible to be a conservative socialist or whatever you'd call it? We already have the term liberal or just lib (albeit in a derogatory way) for socially left but economically center or even (center-right) people, but is there a term for the opposite? And how do you view these people?

Click to shrink...

There is a faction of Catholic socialists who believe in spreading wealth equally while oppressing anything outside dogma.

Chapo did an interview with one a while back, which was a trip but ultimately devolved into utter nonsense and demonstrated that, whatever the points of commonality along some axes, they are not comrades in any kind of broad struggle for liberation.

 

[Deffers]

There is a faction of Catholic socialists who believe in spreading wealth equally while oppressing anything outside dogma.

Chapo did an interview with one a while back, which was a trip but ultimately devolved into utter nonsense and demonstrated that, whatever the points of commonality along some axes, they are not comrades in any kind of broad struggle for liberation.

Click to shrink...

Eugh.

 

[Deleted member 14459]

There is a faction of Catholic socialists who believe in spreading wealth equally while oppressing anything outside dogma.

Chapo did an interview with one a while back, which was a trip but ultimately devolved into utter nonsense and demonstrated that, whatever the points of commonality along some axes, they are not comrades in any kind of broad struggle for liberation.

Click to shrink...

I'm not going to listen to Chapo - but out of interest where was this and what organisation? I know some of the socialist organizations in the maghreb and evidently there are some horizons of possibility/imaginations that is not really there for them.

 

[Heromanz]

I saw bernie the other day. It was electric

 

[Shy]

I saw bernie the other day. It was electric

Click to shrink...

 

[Deleted member 7130]

Click to shrink...

Looks like he's about to go super saiyan

 

[Heromanz]

Looks like he's about to go super saiyan

Click to shrink...

He is

 

[hurlex]

Click to shrink...

lol this is almost certainly satire.

 

[sphagnum]

I saw bernie the other day. It was electric

Click to shrink...

But did you dance with him?

 

[Deleted member 22490]

But did you dance with him?

Click to shrink...

Only if he was the devil in the pale moonlight

 

[Acorn]

Only if he was the devil in the pale moonlight

Click to shrink...

 

[IpKaiFung]

you know what does my head in?

All these people using failed communist states as an example of why socialism doesn't work. Yet happily use the NHS.

 

[Shy]

you know what does my head in?

All these people using failed communist states as an example of why socialism doesn't work. Yet happily use the NHS.

Click to shrink...

GET THE GOVERNMENTS HANDS OF MY MEDICAID!!

 

[Deleted member 721]

the right is winning in uruguay by a difference of 1%

sigh

 

[Heromanz]

But did you dance with him?

Click to shrink...

If only

 

[sphagnum]

the right is winning in uruguay by a difference of 1%

sigh

Click to shrink...

Fight, fail, fight again, fail again, fight again.

 

[Deleted member 721]

some news about brazil, bolsonaro is leaving his actual party because of in-fighting, corruption etc, and creating his own party where all his family members have a high position in the board, bolsonaro is the president and one of his sons is the vice-president, its basicaly a fascist party: nationalism, anti-communism, guns, family, god, tradition. The number of the party is 38 in homage to the .38 caliber.
this is the logo of it

 

[Deffers]

some news about brazil, bolsonaro is leaving his actual party because of in-fighting, corruption etc, and creating his own party where all his family members have a high position in the board, bolsonaro is the president and one of his sons is the vice-president, its basicaly a fascist party: nationalism, anti-communism, guns, family, god, tradition. The number of the party is 38 in homage to the .38 caliber.
this is the logo of it

Click to shrink...

Gun worship is just so, so alienating.

 

[Deleted member 7130]

The fascist nepotist party

 

[GiantBreadbug]

some news about brazil, bolsonaro is leaving his actual party because of in-fighting, corruption etc, and creating his own party where all his family members have a high position in the board, bolsonaro is the president and one of his sons is the vice-president, its basicaly a fascist party: nationalism, anti-communism, guns, family, god, tradition. The number of the party is 38 in homage to the .38 caliber.

Click to shrink...

This is horrifying news! I hate it.

 

[Acorn]

some news about brazil, bolsonaro is leaving his actual party because of in-fighting, corruption etc, and creating his own party where all his family members have a high position in the board, bolsonaro is the president and one of his sons is the vice-president, its basicaly a fascist party: nationalism, anti-communism, guns, family, god, tradition. The number of the party is 38 in homage to the .38 caliber.
this is the logo of it

Click to shrink...

Fucking hell.

 

[Deleted member 721]

btw sphagnum since there's a bunch of sw discussion lately i remembered this about the last jedi and the spark discourse in the movie:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iskra

iskra means "the spark" in russian



""From a spark a fire will flare up"" iskra
to
"We are the spark that will light the fire that will restore the Republic." The last jedi


its likely they didnt knew about this, but its a fun coincidence

 

[sphagnum]

Actually, I wouldn't be surprised if Rian did know about it. TLJ has a rather obvious anti-capitalist slant (the war profiteers on Canto Bight, Snoke being bizarrely decked out in a golden bathrobe). I'm positive that Rose is named Rose because she's a working class girl.

 

[3bdelilah]

Era, what are your views about China and their (alleged?) abhorrent inhuman treatment of the Uighur peoples? Some of the socialists I talk to online seem to either downplay the whole thing, or simply citing Western propaganda. Most of the time they happen to be MLs, whereas DemSocs, anarchists, etc. tend to be more critical of China.

Seeing as how a lot of "official" news from otherwise "credible" venues report the accusations as true, I have to admit my already not so positive views of the Chinese governments (for example in terms of economic policies, I don't think a socialist country should have hundreds of billionaires, but that's another discussion) sink to even lower depths.

What say you? Am I falling for western propaganda, or are most people here critical of China?

 

[Deleted member 82]

Though I'm not super familiar with China, I'd have to imagine most people here a) don't recognize China as an actual socialist country, but as an example of state capitalism, b) generally think their government is pretty shit, c) but also acknowledge that a number of people unfairly hate on China in general in a pretty egregious display of racism and/or whataboutism.

Well, that's more or less how I view things anyway.

 

[Heromanz]

Era, what are your views about China and their (alleged?) abhorrent inhuman treatment of the Uighur peoples? Some of the socialists I talk to online seem to either downplay the whole thing, or simply citing Western propaganda. Most of the time they happen to be MLs, whereas DemSocs, anarchists, etc. tend to be more critical of China.

Seeing as how a lot of "official" news from otherwise "credible" venues report the accusations as true, I have to admit my already not so positive views of the Chinese governments (for example in terms of economic policies, I don't think a socialist country should have hundreds of billionaires, but that's another discussion) sink to even lower depths.

What say you? Am I falling for western propaganda, or are most people here critical of China?

Click to shrink...

Of course it's real. and like 99% socialist people don't think China socialist because they're not.

 

[Deleted member 31817]

Era, what are your views about China and their (alleged?) abhorrent inhuman treatment of the Uighur peoples? Some of the socialists I talk to online seem to either downplay the whole thing, or simply citing Western propaganda. Most of the time they happen to be MLs, whereas DemSocs, anarchists, etc. tend to be more critical of China.

Seeing as how a lot of "official" news from otherwise "credible" venues report the accusations as true, I have to admit my already not so positive views of the Chinese governments (for example in terms of economic policies, I don't think a socialist country should have hundreds of billionaires, but that's another discussion) sink to even lower depths.

What say you? Am I falling for western propaganda, or are most people here critical of China?

Click to shrink...

I've had tankies try to tell me it's CIA propaganda soooo

 

[IpKaiFung]

China ain't communist or socialist.

It's hyper capitalism with chinese style authorotarianism.

It's funny because if the right wingers get their way that's what they're gonna end up with.

 

[3bdelilah]

Alright, glad to hear my view on them is the most shared one here on Era. Also, why do many MLs defend China? If anything, you'd think because of the Sino-Soviet split, they'd still harbour ill will towards them.

 

[Deleted member 31817]

Alright, glad to hear my view on them is the most shared one here on Era. Also, why do many MLs defend China? If anything, you'd think because of the Sino-Soviet split, they'd still harbour ill will towards them.

Click to shrink...

Something something got rid of landlords something something

 

[Deffers]

Alright, glad to hear my view on them is the most shared one here on Era. Also, why do many MLs defend China? If anything, you'd think because of the Sino-Soviet split, they'd still harbour ill will towards them.

Click to shrink...

Tankies worship at the altar of force like the fash do.

 

[Deleted member 31817]

Tankies worship at the altar of force like the fash do.

Click to shrink...

It's really fucking gross. The one example of horseshoe theory not being complete BS I guess.

Which sucks because basically all the best leftist meme pages are from tankies :/

I've had people tell me the Uighur thing is an entire CIA propaganda piece to demonize China, that the Hong Kong protestors are in the wrong bc they're neoliberal agitators trying to undermine a communist state etc.

 

[Deffers]

It's really fucking gross. The one example of horseshoe theory not being complete BS I guess.

Which sucks because basically all the best leftist meme pages are from tankies :/

I've had people tell me the Uighur thing is an entire CIA propaganda piece to demonize China, that the Hong Kong protestors are in the wrong bc they're neoliberal agitators trying to undermine a communist state etc.

Click to shrink...

Hilariously, or perhaps tragically, it would seem a lot of online tankies are COINTELPRO, given the fact that MLs have their own volunteer division in Rojava. Or had, anyway.

 

[SurrenderDorothy]

Critical support and all that shite.
Tankies can be an annoying lot. Not all of us MLs excuse imperialist powers solely because they stand against Western hegemony.

The worst is when I show proof of what China is doing to the Uighur people, it would be dismissed as Western propaganda.
The gall to say that shit, when I know someone personally who is from the region. That's the problem with these Larpers, they're so far away from certain struggles that they think they can say whatever the hell they like, damn the evidence. They'll just call you a 'lib', lol. Or 'Sinophobic'.

I even had one stupid mfer claim that it's fine because Uighurs are all Jihadi types anyway, and that this is merely re-education.
You can excuse any wrongdoing this way. All of a sudden, supposed Leftists sound a lot like Israelis who defend their apartheid.

 

[Deleted member 31817]

Critical support and all that shite.
Tankies can be an annoying lot. Not all of us MLs excuse imperialist powers solely because they stand against Western hegemony.

The worst is when I show proof of what China is doing to the Uighur people, and all of that would be dismissed as Western propaganda.
The gall to say that shit, when I know someone personally who is from the region. That's the problem with these Larpers, they're so far away from certain struggles that they think they can say whatever the hell they like, damn the evidence. They'll just call you a 'lib', lol. Or 'Sinophobic'.

I even had one stupid mfer claim that it's fine because Uighurs are all Jihadi types anyway, and that this is merely re-education.
You can excuse any wrongdoing this way. All of a sudden, supposed Leftists sound a lot like Israelis who defend their apartheid.

Click to shrink...

Oh yeah that too, some acknowledge flat out what China is doing and paint it as necessary for the security of the state.

Obviously I heavily disagree with that shit, but the most amusing part is they're defending tragedies all for a regime that isn't even remotely communist or socialist.

 

[SurrenderDorothy]

Oh yeah that too, some acknowledge flat out what China is doing and paint it as necessary for the security of the state.

Obviously I heavily disagree with that shit, but the most amusing part is they're defending tragedies all for a regime that isn't even remotely communist or socialist.

Click to shrink...

Absolutely. But when this is mentioned, they'll deflect either way.
Nowadays I just call them chuds and be done with the conversation, can't talk to these types.

 

[sphagnum]

Tankies can be an annoying lot. Not all of us MLs excuse imperialist powers solely because they stand against Western hegemony.

Click to shrink...

Are you sure you're not just a Marxist, or a Leninist, rather than a Marxist-Leninist? Tankie is an insult specifically for MLs!

 

[Deleted member 31817]

I'm not really sure on what a Marxist-leninist is tbh

Like how is that different than just being a supporter of Lenin's ideas

 

[Shy]

Heromanz Why did you ask for your thread to be locked. I was about to post in it.

 

[Heromanz]

Heromanz Why did you ask for your thread to be locked. I was about to post in it.

Click to shrink...

It was a disaster and i didn't want yo keep being reminded of it

 

[Shy]

It was a disaster and i didn't want yo keep being reminded of it

Click to shrink...

I didn't think it was a disaster.

It's my fault. I should of posted sooner.

 

[Heromanz]

I didn't think it was a disaster.

It's my fault. I should of posted sooner.

Click to shrink...

it became a thread about people bitching about mods and I didn't want to be a part of that

 

[SurrenderDorothy]

Are you sure you're not just a Marxist, or a Leninist, rather than a Marxist-Leninist? Tankie is an insult specifically for MLs!

Click to shrink...

Maybe. In fairness, I'm still reading theory and learning. I call myself a 'Tankie' sometimes ironically in jest, I know it is used as an insult in general.
I just happen to agree a lot with MLs, so I classified myself under that political ideology.