Socialism |OT| The Dawn of a Red Era

[Deleted member 30788]

For real now, you think the problem that the left has is that there are too many people who like Stalin there?

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And here I thought it was the other way 'round. I kid I kid.. the problem the "left" has is that its an umbrella term so broad it's members can tell each other apart with such ease because it covers everything from a simple planned economy, to stateless societies and single state dictatorships. Communism, socialism, anarchism, social democracy, democratic socialism, eco socialism... Take your pick.

I'd love to see "the left" spoken of only in the contex of planned economic policies but that would be too hard wouldnt it. Seems today, being leftist means you are pro choice, not religious, PC pro rights and bonus points if you cal yourself non bnary. All those wolnerful buzzwords that sell clicks.

 

[Deleted member 721]

https://www.resetera.com/threads/im...atin-american-protests-becoming-riots.156587/

 

[Deleted member 25600]

I just want us all to get along!

 

[CrimzonSamurai]

I'd love to see "the left" spoken of only in the contex of planned economic policies but that would be too hard wouldnt it. Seems today, being leftist means you are pro choice, not religious, PC pro rights and bonus points if you cal yourself non bnary. All those wolnerful buzzwords that sell clicks.

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Speaking of socially reactionary ass tankies....

 

[pigeon]

Speaking of socially reactionary ass tankies....

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Hey, now. Just because that guy was a herrenvolk socialist who explicitly disavowed and sneered at social justice of the type I'm constantly told does not exist and is reactionary even to talk about doesn't mean he believed in the moral necessity of the Holodomor. Let's be careful about using the right terminology!

 

[Bonen no Max'd]

otherwise those results mostly seem to point to people complaining about tankies in general rather than as part of specific arguments in the thread (aside from House of Lightning, who called everyone a Stalinist).

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say what you will about my reactionary class-cooperationist politics, HoL never called me a stalinist :P

 

[Chikor]

I just want us all to get along!

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This is the socialism thread, of course we will argue. That whole "agreeing about everything" thing is more in the fascists wheelhouse.
As long as ya'll don't snitch on me to the Un-American Activities Committee we're all good as far as I'm concerned.

 

[Acorn]

Have you now or have you ever been a poster on socialist era's discord!?

 

[Deleted member 25600]

Have you now or have you ever been a poster on socialist era's discord!?

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I do not recall.

 

[Sibylus]

And what exactly is a tankie?
I donno, to me it looks like the word people shout when they don't want to debate someone on the left of them, and it's kinda sad to see it used ironically in a socialism thread.

Ya'll know that if Marco Rubio dragged your lefty ass to the new and improved committee for un-american activities 2.0 and ask you if you are now, or have ever been a tankie, saying "well actually, I consider myself more of an anarcho syndicalist" is not gonna help you, right?

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There's nothing wrong with using the term tankie if you're doing it right, come on. It's not always used correctly. There are liberals who use it incorrectly because they think anyone who doesn't like NATO or wasn't 100% convinced about some of the wilder media narratives about Russia is a "tankie". But it has a long pedigree in socialist terminology, specifically because of the Soviets putting down the Hungarian revolt, and I don't have any qualms in saying that someone who supports an undemocratic party bureaucracy style state thay crushes democratic dissent is, in fact, a tankie.


You can still critically engage with Marxist-Leninist history and theory and recognize and learn from the good and bad things the USSR and PRC and so forth did, and also sometimes just say you dislike tankies. R/communism is full of them. Doesn't matter if they have no real power in the left at the moment - you can still be frustrated by them!

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We've talked about it before, and I still generally agree with sphagnum, albeit I consider brushing Marxism-Leninism as a category with it is too broad, as there is nothing in it that strikes me as necessitating a crushing response to moves away from democratic centralism (as determined by said Soviet bureacracy). That in practice said bureaucracy was gripped by uncertainty and opposed courses during these crises certainly suggests to me that it's a tendency that doesn't map cleanly, even among Marxist-Leninists. And I make no bones about knowing fewer tankies than I can count on a hand. They're not consequential nor am I particularly worried about them, but at the same time they have that "proudly impossible to talk to" energy to them that inspires wry frustration. Maybe you've the right of it that the term has outlived all usefulness.

And I am 100%-certified fucked as a Committee goes regardless of what I say, lol. What's the play there other than putting on clown shoes and making it an insufferable circus?

 

[Shy]

When did we start allowing Tankies in here ?

 

[Chikor]

We've talked about it before, and I still generally agree with sphagnum, albeit I consider brushing Marxism-Leninism as a category with it is too broad, as there is nothing in it that strikes me as necessitating a crushing response to moves away from democratic centralism (as determined by said Soviet bureacracy). That in practice said bureaucracy was gripped by uncertainty and opposed courses during these crises certainly suggests to me that it's a tendency that doesn't map cleanly, even among Marxist-Leninists. And I make no bones about knowing fewer tankies than I can count on a hand. They're not consequential nor am I particularly worried about them, but at the same time they have that "proudly impossible to talk to" energy to them that inspires wry frustration. Maybe you've the right of it that the term has outlived all usefulness.

And I am 100%-certified fucked as a Committee goes regardless of what I say, lol. What's the play there other than putting on clown shoes and making it an insufferable circus?

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There are like 12 ML in the US and you met so many of that specific sub-category of them that you had to come up with a term for them?
Where the hell ya'll hanging around?

But to be serious for a sec, I really think the left should not spend that much time hunting for leftist boogieman that looks like the caricature conservatives have for the left. For real, I don't think there is anything scary or dangerous in the "radical left".

 

[Sibylus]

There are like 12 ML in the US and you met so many of that specific sub-category of them that you had to come up with a term for them?
Where the hell ya'll hanging around?

I really think the left should not spend that much time hunting for leftist boogieman that looks like the caricature conservatives have for the left. For real, I don't think there is anything scary or dangerous in the "radical left".

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Twitter is a terrible place, and the one IRL tankie I happen to know hangs there. I don't so much as look for boogeymen there as I do other perspectives that might expand my horizons. I guess I've struck out for that tendency.

 

[Snowy]

"Tankie" is a legit term that describes a real subset of Leftists. Moreover, it reflects a genuine issue people tangle with, which is that the only socialist states to ever exist were and are problematic faves, at best. It's fine to use.

 

[Chikor]

"Tankie" is a legit term that describes a real subset of Leftists. Moreover, it reflects a genuine issue people tangle with, which is that the only socialist states to ever exist were and are problematic faves, at best. It's fine to use.

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Who are those people?
No seriously, is there like a political party of tankies?
Because what I see is most a whole lot of people in the left doing a whole lot of legwork trying to prove that there are in fact people who fit the bullshit lies that Ted Cruz tells on anyone who isn't capitalist.
It's also never ever well defined, so it can be anything from double loyalty traitors to MLs with a specific theory of change we don't like, though one thing is constant is that the left suck and there some really really bad and dangerous people on the RaDiCaL lEfT, and I really never ever seen any evidence for that, at least not in any numbers that matters.

 

[sphagnum]

TBH I'm still not quite sure why you're arguing. Do you think Stalinists don't exist, or do you think they're just so negligible that it's only playing into capitalists' hands to make fun of "tankies" because it gives people a term they can use overly broadly since accused "tankies" might not just be Stalinists?

My issue with Stalinists isn't that I don't like their "theory of change" per se. I think if the soviets in the USSR had been legitimately democratic, singlen party state and all, I would be fine with calling the USSR an actual socialist state. My issue with Stalinists is the constant warping of history the handwaving of atrocities, the betrayal of the ideals of socialism, etc.

 

[collige]

Who are those people?
No seriously, is there like a political party of tankies?
Because what I see is most a whole lot of people in the left doing a whole lot of legwork trying to prove that there are in fact people who fit the bullshit lies that Ted Cruz tells on anyone who isn't capitalist.
It's also never ever well defined, so it can be anything from double loyalty traitors to MLs with a specific theory of change we don't like, though one thing is constant is that the left suck and there some really really bad and dangerous people on the RaDiCaL lEfT, and I really never ever seen any evidence for that, at least not in any numbers that matters.

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Has anyone ever actually called tankies "dangerous"? They certainly suck, but everything I've seen indicates that they don't exist in large enough numbers to affect anything. I just see some really terrible takes on Twitter every once in a while.

 

[Chikor]

TBH I'm still not quite sure why you're arguing. Do you think Stalinists don't exist, or do you think they're just so negligible that it's only playing into capitalists' hands to make fun of "tankies" because it gives people a term they can use overly broadly since accused "tankies" might not just be Stalinists?

My issue with Stalinists isn't that I don't like their "theory of change" per se. I think if the soviets in the USSR had been legitimately democratic, singlen party state and all, I would be fine with calling the USSR an actual socialist state. My issue with Stalinists is the constant warping of history the handwaving of atrocities, the betrayal of the ideals of socialism, etc.

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No, I don't believe that there is a large contingent of the American left who has a better opinion about Stalin than the USSR politburo circa 1956, I really don't, and the only evidence I ever seen are stories about a friend of a friend two towns over whose Canadian girlfriend was super into Pol Pot. That, and memes from reddit.

I will quote myself again about what I think -

I have never met a "tankie" in real life, and I have been hanging around "far" leftist circles since the 90s. I've seen some edgelord people online who are posting dumb shit, and I've seen a whole lot of trolling, but I have yet to see any evidence that there is a big contingent of people in the west who believe that Stalin was a great leader and they are organizing politically to bring Stalin 2: electric gulagoo.​

I did however meet a lot of people who accused anyone who is on the left of them or didn't support American foreign policy of being a Stalinist, communist, or more recently, a "tankie".​

​

I think this whole "tankie" hysteria is somewhere between red scare 2.0 and an attempt to not engage honestly with people on the left.​

This thread mention "tankie" more than "fascist".

For real, you met that many Stalnist in your life that you have an actual theory about their ideological framework?
I honestly think this is mostly shadowboxing against a caricature of the left that doesn't really exist in real life.

 

[sphagnum]

No, I don't believe that there is a large contingent of the American left who has a better opinion about Stalin than the USSR politburo circa 1956, I really don't,

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Nobody said it's a huge contingent!

For real, you met that many Stalnist in your life that you have an actual theory about their ideological framework?

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It's a large part of the history of socialism!

 

[Deffers]

It's a large part of the history of socialism!

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They also, like... wrote down their philosophy, don't forget that. We aren't reconstructing Stalinist philosophy from a Russia-sized crime scene.

It's like with Posadism. I get to post J. Posadas' actual work about aliens here, and we get to meme about it.

It's fine, chikor. Let people dunk on tankies if they want. It's a bonding thing based on a shared desire for a better vision of socialism.

 

[Bonen no Max'd]

TBH I'm still not quite sure why you're arguing. Do you think Stalinists don't exist, or do you think they're just so negligible that it's only playing into capitalists' hands to make fun of "tankies" because it gives people a term they can use overly broadly since accused "tankies" might not just be Stalinists?

My issue with Stalinists isn't that I don't like their "theory of change" per se. I think if the soviets in the USSR had been legitimately democratic, singlen party state and all, I would be fine with calling the USSR an actual socialist state. My issue with Stalinists is the constant warping of history the handwaving of atrocities, the betrayal of the ideals of socialism, etc.

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wait are you saying you don't think political pluralism/multiparitism is a necessary condition for describing democracy?

 

[Madison]

if even Eric Hobsbawm had trouble being critical of the soviets when they crushed the hungarians, I think that we can be sure that tankies exist

 

[sphagnum]

wait are you saying you don't think political pluralism/multiparitism is a necessary condition for describing democracy?

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So long as a state exists, a single party is certainly not my preference. But if we're following Marxist thought straight through to its endpoint, the ultimate goal is the abolition of the state and that would require the abolition of political parties along with it. To keep it in good faith, let's say that the 1936 USSR Constitution had been enacted in full and that included the original intention that the party would transition from a "political" to a purely "administrative" operation that existed to carry out the will of the soviets without directing it. The claimed idea behind that was to begin the process of the withering away of the state. I think that is, in theory, justifiable.

In reality, it hasn't tended to work out!

 

[Deleted member 14459]

if even Eric Hobsbawm had trouble being critical of the soviets when they crushed the hungarians, I think that we can be sure that tankies exist

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I have met quite a few tankies through my work - not many in the US since the late 1990s tho. But I have met people usually in their early 20s who seem to think they are tankies, but they really fail the test of explaining their relationship to Leninist ideals. There are some members of the PKK (in the US) that I have come across recently that might fall under the tankie label, interestingly enough.

 

[Snowy]

Who are those people?
No seriously, is there like a political party of tankies?
Because what I see is most a whole lot of people in the left doing a whole lot of legwork trying to prove that there are in fact people who fit the bullshit lies that Ted Cruz tells on anyone who isn't capitalist.
It's also never ever well defined, so it can be anything from double loyalty traitors to MLs with a specific theory of change we don't like, though one thing is constant is that the left suck and there some really really bad and dangerous people on the RaDiCaL lEfT, and I really never ever seen any evidence for that, at least not in any numbers that matters.

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There are a shit ton of Tankies on Reddit, which is arguably the most visible platform for Western leftists at the moment.

 

[Chikor]

Nobody said it's a huge contingent!

It's a large part of the history of socialism!

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So to recap, it's a poorly defined term that no one seem to be able to agree about what it is, but we're sure it's not describing any meaningful political force in the US, and yet it somehow sounds exactly like bullshit liberals and conservatives tell about anyone left of center.

So why are ya'll so attached to this term?

It's a shitty ad-hominem attack under the best conditions, and I'm really not sure those conditions ever existed here. For real, can you point a case where you think someone was called a tankie on this forum and they were in fact huge fans of Stalin or whatever?

 

[Chikor]

There are a shit ton of Tankies on Reddit, which is arguably the most visible platform for Western leftists at the moment.

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I have yet to see any evidence that "tankie" is a real political force in the US or a danger to anyone or anything, and I'm still not sure I understand what you think a tankie is.
But I do see a whole lot of people collecting dossiers of dank r/fullcommunism memes so they can show that yes, Macro Rubio is right and the Radical left is indeed Just As Bad.

Ya'll really believe in that horseshow theory crap?
This is literally shit that the US came up with because they couldn't handle the fact that all the real Bad Guys in WW2 were right wing.

 

[sphagnum]

So to recap, it's a poorly defined term that no one seem to be able to agree about what it is,

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I've stated a couple times now what it means, as broad as it is. It can be used in bad faith but that doesn't mean it doesn't mean something

For real, can you point a case where you think someone was called a tankie on this forum and they were in fact huge fans of Stalin or whatever?

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I don't really put much stock in unimportant forum interactions when it comes to whether I think a word makes sense.

You keep doing this thing where you go "Do you really think", "So you all believe", "Are you really claiming" etc and then inserting something that nobody said but which you wish they said. Argue against what people are actually saying!

 

[Chikor]

I've stated a couple times now what it means, as broad as it is. It can be used in bad faith but that doesn't mean it doesn't mean something



I don't really put much stock in unimportant forum interactions when it comes to whether I think a word makes sense.

You keep doing this thing where you go "Do you really think", "So you all believe", "Are you really claiming" etc and then inserting something that nobody said but which you wish they said. Argue against what people are actually saying!

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I tried my best to explain why I don't like this term and why I really don't think people on the left should use it.
I think a lot of people in this thread seem to be really attached to it, and I think you're ignoring the way it's actually used in the real world.

I am asking you those question because I'm trying to understand why you think this is something we should keep on doing.

Seriously, why not call all those Stalinists ya'll always run into "Stalinists"?

This is a vague "scary left" term and I think that stuff is never helpful.

 

[sphagnum]

Seriously, why not call all those Stalinists ya'll always run into "Stalinists"?

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Variety is the spice of life!

 

[Deleted member 14459]

As someone else has stated, Stalinism's characteristics of authoritarianism combined with its apologism makes it mostly a potent ideology for online sects...

I would recommend that everyone who has not done so read this blog-post by a former tankie/Stalinist to get the stock of tankies in the US right now (it's the same authors who wrote the rather central piece " Where's the Winter Palace?" the critique of M-L tendencies in US socialist party politics)

edit: wrong link - i meant this piece: https://theleftwind.wordpress.com/2...ling-accounts-coming-to-terms-with-stalinism/

 

[sphagnum]

As someone else has stated, Stalinism's characteristics of authoritarianism combined with its apologism makes it mostly a potent ideology for online sects...

I would recommend that everyone who has not done so read this blog-post by a former tankie/Stalinist to get the stock of tankies in the US right now (it's the same authors who wrote the rather central piece " Where's the Winter Palace?" the critique of M-L tendencies in US socialist party politics)

edit: wrong link - i meant this piece: https://theleftwind.wordpress.com/2...ling-accounts-coming-to-terms-with-stalinism/

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This is a really excellent piece, and it brings back a lot of memories for me. Nice to see how self-critical the author is too.

 

[Chikor]

Variety is the spice of life!

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But come on now, that's not how tankie is used, right?
Even just online, it's not like there is a bot army or a giant reddit brigade of people who argue that Stalin did nothing wrong an they're winning people over and the "SaNe LeFt" must purge them over.
It's either this vague "I'M a GoOd LeFtY bEcAuSe I hAtE bAd LeFtIeS" act where people on the left pretend that they're actually super concerned about eh bullshit caricatures that Gelnn Beck tells his audience about the left ("the love Stalin and think pol pot did nothing wrong!") or when people want to imply that someone who don't support the US foriegn policy is a foriegn agent, but you don't have

As someone else has stated, Stalinism's characteristics of authoritarianism combined with its apologism makes it mostly a potent ideology for online sects...

I would recommend that everyone who has not done so read this blog-post by a former tankie/Stalinist to get the stock of tankies in the US right now (it's the same authors who wrote the rather central piece " Where's the Winter Palace?" the critique of M-L tendencies in US socialist party politics)

edit: wrong link - i meant this piece: https://theleftwind.wordpress.com/2...ling-accounts-coming-to-terms-with-stalinism/

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Aren't you just describing Stalinists?
And I don't think that's how tankie is being used, I am not going to call you out but search how used the term in this thread and I don't think it would be fair to say that you were talking about Stalinist.

p.s.
I think acting like the WWP is important political movement or that it holds positions that are so illegitimate that one must only talk about them in terms like "tankies" and purge them from every conversation is exactly what I'm talking about.

 

[GiantBreadbug]

I think there's definitely a very real population of actual tankies in the classic sense, but I almost exclusively encounter it as being a quick and easy-to-use smear by anyone to the right of leftists when US foreign policy is held up against the light. So in a sense it has definitely had its meaning requisitioned by people (including liberals) trying to create this adjacency between socialists of all kinds and people who genuinely apologize for authoritarian tactics.

I guess this could just be my particular experience with seeing it used.

 

[Chikor]

I think there's definitely a very real population of actual tankies in the classic sense, but I almost exclusively encounter it as being a quick and easy-to-use smear by anyone to the right of leftists when US foreign policy is held up against the light. So in a sense it has definitely had its meaning requisitioned by people (including liberals) trying to create this adjacency between socialists of all kinds and people who genuinely apologize for authoritarian tactics.

I guess this could just be my particular experience with seeing it used.

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Tankies has been used in this way for under 10 years. I don't think there is a classic sense there.
And while I continue to be unclear about exactly what is and isn't a tankie, I don't think there was any time in US's history where people on the far left were an urgent problem the US had to solve, and I don't think it's a concern right now, at all and on any level. For real, I'm not sure what you are all so scared of, but there is no revolutionary left in the US, not really.

The GOP always screamed that RaDiCaL lEfTiStS aRe ThE rEaL tHrEaT, and every few years the Democrats join in to purge everyone who is too leftist, sometime it's "the anarchist menace", sometime it's "communist infiltrators". I hope if we get a "tankie hunt", at least socialists wouldn't participate, because in the last red scare the left pretty much all snitched on itself.

 

[Bonen no Max'd]

i don't think tankies are a meaningfully threatening contingent of people but i do find them annoying and enjoy making fun of them as a result

 

[pigeon]

Tankies have clearly been extremely threatening to the discussion in this thread since they have literally taken it over

 

[Pekola]

Tankies have clearly been extremely threatening to the discussion in this thread since they have literally taken it over

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Explain.

 

[pigeon]

Explain.

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there have been a lot of posts discussing tankies

 

[GiantBreadbug]

Tankies has been used in this way for under 10 years. I don't think there is a classic sense there.
And while I continue to be unclear about exactly what is and isn't a tankie, I don't think there was any time in US's history where people on the far left were an urgent problem the US had to solve, and I don't think it's a concern right now, at all and on any level. For real, I'm not sure what you are all so scared of, but there is no revolutionary left in the US, not really.

The GOP always screamed that RaDiCaL lEfTiStS aRe ThE rEaL tHrEaT, and every few years the Democrats join in to purge everyone who is too leftist, sometime it's "the anarchist menace", sometime it's "communist infiltrators". I hope if we get a "tankie hunt", at least socialists wouldn't participate, because in the last red scare the left pretty much all snitched on itself.

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Yeah I should have put the word "classic" in quotes cuz I meant it in a kinda silly way.

But I mean I pretty much agree with you about how at this point its become much more of a dogwhisle than anything else regardless of what ideology out of which it was born.

 

[TheHunter]

Pigeon is correct, Tankies suck.

 

[Luminish]

Sure, tankies suck, but are you claiming there are tankies in this topic, and if so, who?

I don't like these overly general accusations which can't be defended against because it's too general to know what you're talking about.

 

[pigeon]

Pigeon is correct, Tankies suck.

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I mean I do think this but please don't put any aspect of this totally ridiculous discussion on me, I have not made any such statements in these last few pages

 

[TheHunter]

Sure, tankies suck, but are you claiming there are tankies in this topic, and if so, who?

I don't like these overly general accusations which can't be defended against because it's too general to know what you're talking about.

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Oh no, there doesn't seem to be any here.

I thought we were just taking some time out to dunk on those whacky guys!

 

[Luminish]

Cool, just needed to be sure.

And I don't see anything wrong with discussion about the usefulness of the term. Personally I think the term is extremely helpful to signal disownership of some of the crappy stuff that was done under the name of socialism throughout history. Fair or not, the things tankies stand for is kinda what most people assumes socialism is about because Americans don't have much experience with socialism outside of the demonizing of the USSR throughout the cold war.

So even if there are literally 0 tankies in real life, it's important to make clear those things are something we do not want let to happen again. And "tankie" is a good way to alienate those tendencies onto an outsider group which can be mocked. It's just a bonus that we can lump that mockery with whatever amount of tankies that do actually exist.

 

[Chikor]

Cool, just needed to be sure.

And I don't see anything wrong with discussion about the usefulness of the term. Personally I think the term is extremely helpful to signal disownership of some of the crappy stuff that was done under the name of socialism throughout history. Fair or not, the things tankies stand for is kinda what most people assumes socialism is about because Americans don't have much experience with socialism outside of the demonizing of the USSR throughout the cold war.

So even if there are literally 0 tankies in real life, it's important to make clear those things are something we do not want let to happen again. And "tankie" is a good way to alienate those tendencies onto an outsider group which can be mocked. It's just a bonus that we can lump that mockery with whatever amount of tankies that do actually exist.

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The real issue capitalists have with socialism is not "the crimes of Stalin", it's that it aims to take money from rich people and give it to the poor. Them claiming that their issue is "authoritarianism" or that "kim jong un is a bad person" is a bad faith concern trolling and it always have been. I really don't think the left you play along.

Anti-capitalists don't oppose capitalism because they like gulags, that's bullshit that Capitalists says. We really don't need to act like the what Carlson Tucker say antifa is actually exists in the America left, because they're really not there. And there really isn't a harsh enough words that you can condemn those right wing boogeymen that would make them act like your political position is a legitimate one.

The left tried it during the last cold war, that "signaling disownership" manifested itself in blacklisting, and seeing who get called a "tankie" these days, I am really worried we might go down that path again.

 

[Pekola]

I mean I do think this but please don't put any aspect of this totally ridiculous discussion on me, I have not made any such statements in these last few pages

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This all started because of your silly joke.

 

[Deleted member 14459]

Agreeing with Chikor that the term is not very useful - it's imprecise (moreso that eg 'trot') and lazy - eg all stalinists are tankies but not all tankies are stalinists, pressumably all tankies are m-ls but not all m-ls are tankies etc. Maybe it has some value as a meme also for socialists, but not much beyond that.

I think a more pertinent question is if you as socialists refuse/would refuse political work/action/organizing together with tankies?

 

[Chikor]

I think a more pertinent question is if you as socialists refuse/would refuse political work/action/organizing together with tankies?

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I honestly don't think the left should spend too much thinking about how we will cancel people on the left that I'm still not sure exist in any number that matters.
I think all it achieves is giving an air of respectability to what I still think is first and foremost a right-wing caricature of the left.

 

[Madison]

oh my god is TankieGate still going