Sonic 3 & Knuckles vs Sonic Mania Plus: Which one is the best Classic Sonic game? [Stealth Sonic Mania praise thread]

[Lant_War]

Sonic Mania is probably the first Sonic game in a while that has been universally well received. Not that it isn't 100% deserved, because the whole game is simply amazing, but a ton of people in the fanbase have been saying that it's the best Classic Sonic game out of all of them. So, what do you think?

Imo, holy fuck of course it is. Sonic Mania Plus is straight up one of the best platformers of all time on every single possible aspect. The game is gorgeous as hell, with so much going on at any point in time (look at how smooth Sonic is in the gif above), the OST is amongst the best of gaming, and goddamn the levels are so well designed. Look at this, this is a single act from a 2-act zone and I have to put it on a Spoiler because it takes up the whole screen

Spoiler: Image taken from Sonic Retro

"Oh, but that's the final zone. Surely the other ones are much smaller" - W R O N G

Spoiler

To be fair to Sonic 3, its zones are pretty big as well but imo they're just not as tightly designed as Mania's. It's pretty telling that even the zone I dislike the most on Mania is still a blast to play through.

However, Sonic 3 still had some aspects where it was better than Mania, things like having animations for every stage transition, twice as many special stages, having more zones, etc. Then the Encore DLC came along and elevated Mania to perfection.

These guys? Back

Actual bonus stages? Gotcha

An entirely new gamemode that changes level design, the color pallete, explains why the new characters are here and adds a ton of replay value? We got that as well!
​

And that's not even getting into the better competition mode (no more stretched screens!), quality of life updates (stage transitions for all acts!) and other content like the 7 hard-as-fuck special stages. Imo, Sonic 3 and Knuckles is on par with base Sonic Mania, but Plus is straight up the best Sonic game ever made.

I think S3&K could have a chance at competing if they released a remake on the retro engine that adds all the options from Sonic 3 Complete, maybe adds it's own Encore mode and also has new playable characters, but considering how much SEGA hates Sonic 3 and Knuckles existing, I doubt that's ever going to happen.

 

[Kasey]

Sonic 2 is peak Sonic.

 

[sambills]

"which sonic game is better the one clouded by nostalgia or the one thats actually good"

 

[bangai-o]

What about Sonic & Knuckles? It is the better game that 3&Knuckles.

 

[Mauricio_Magus]

Sonic Mania Plus is the best Sonic game ever made by a god damn mile.

 

[Lant_War]

"which sonic game is better the one clouded by nostalgia or the one thats actually good"

Click to shrink...

Honestly this could be read both ways, lol. If you're saying that Sonic 3 and Knuckles is only liked because of nostalgia, I'm sorry but I can't agree with you, it's still an amazing game today.

 

[Vertpin]

Sonic Mania Plus was too good.

SMP > S2 > S3/SK > SCD >= S1

 

[Neoxon]

My vote goes to Sonic Mania (Plus), but I hope that future Mania games (if any) embrace Tyson Hesse's Classic Sonic design more with the sprites. For reference, here's a sprite mod that does exactly that.



Hell, embrace Tyson Hesse's art for all parts of Sonic, Classic & Modern.

 

[Virtua King]

3&K> Mania > 2 > 1 > CD

All are G.O.A.T tier, but 3&K is king for the best end game, bonus stages, and story, which are the weaknesses of Mania.

Oh, and Hyper Transformations, can't forget about that.

 

[Lant_War]

My vote goes to Sonic Mania (Plus), but I hope that future Mania games (if any) embrace Tyson Hesse's Classic Sonic design more with the sprites. For reference, here's a sprite mod that does exactly that.



Hell, embrace Tyson Hesse's art for all parts of Sonic, Classic & Modern.

Click to shrink...

That main menu Sonic is a little rough (understandable since it's a mod), but damn, it actually works perfectly in-game. Maybe they could let you choose between the Mania / Heese style?

 

[Deleted member 32804]

Sonic Mania is fantastic but there's no way I'm going to downplay S3K. Both games are excellent in their own way. I do think the sequel needs to be fully original though.

 

[competentcuttlefish]

Sonic Mania Plus is a love letter to the franchise, but S3&K is loaded with more original content.

(Side note and fun fact, Sega intended on releasing Sonic 3 and Sonic & Knuckles together after the fact as a Limited Edition. Prototypes exist and have been dumped).

 

[Lan]

S3&K for sure. Mania is really great, but it has these awkward difficulty spikes or design choices here and there that really pulled me out of the experience. For me, S3&K is the total package and peak Sonic.

 

[Lant_War]

Sonic Mania Plus is a love letter to the franchise, but S3&K is loaded with more original content.

(Side note and fun fact, Sega intended on releasing Sonic 3 and Sonic & Knuckles together after the fact as a Limited Edition. Prototypes exist and have been dumped).

Click to shrink...

Another fun fact: this exists but we never got it

 

[Neoxon]

That main menu Sonic is a little rough (understandable since it's a mod), but damn, it actually works perfectly in-game. Maybe they could let you choose between the Mania / Heese style?

Click to shrink...

I know, right? Imagine that on a wider scale for the entire cast. Tyson Hesse just understands Sonic on a fundamental level, & I'd love to see the games embrace his art style more (with Tyson himself being involved, of course). If the rumors are to be believed, he's already gonna be helping with the Sonic movie for the fixed version of Sonic. Plus he's doing official animated shorts for both Classic & Modern Sonic. Might as well go the whole 9 yards.

 

[wondermagenta]

I feel like Sonic 2's level design just struck a better balance between being big and open-ended but also just flowing really well with tight pacing. Having a boss to bookend every single stage is hype on a first playthrough, but now I find myself still replaying 2 way more than Mania because it just lets me move on with my life lmao. Same thing with the stage transitions IMO, it feels cool but slows down the pacing just a tad.

I'll say I vastly prefer Mania over 3 though.

 

[Kasey]

Click to shrink...

This is awful.

 

[Inuhanyou]

can i choose both?

 

[Dusk Golem]

There's a few things Sonic 3 & Knuckles does better than Sonic Mania especially when it comes to subtle environmental story telling and interconnected worlds (Mania does both of these things too, but it's a bit more hodgepodged due to a lot of the levels not naturally connecting and there being many returning stages), but Sonic Mania is a fantastic game. One with some room for improvement in a few areas I feel, but wins me over with it's creativity and design a lot of the time.

I do think Sonic 3 & Knuckles feels more... Natural? Outside of what I stated, the shortcuts feel organic, the character differences are more interesting, and there's a certain consistant atmosphere Sonic 3 & Knuckles has which is appealing. Sonic Mania has it's own different atmosphere which is also enjoyable, but the experience doesn't feel as organic. But again, the creativity on display and often the level design in Mania does make me give it the edge though Sonic 3 & Knuckles still does a few things better I feel.

I'd be very interested in a Sonic Mania sequel which has completely original zones and tells it's own story, this said. I feel the team could make something really special.

 

[dlauv]

Mania's kind of exhausting to play and there are too many linear physics gimmicks. It's good and deserves its praise, but I'd rather return to Sonic 2 or 3&K. I think Mania's problem is that it takes too much design influence from CD.

 

[milkyway]

I thought Sonic Mania was great and well polished but S3&K has the best soundtrack and in my opinion more interesting levels overall despite not having the polish Mania gets from being a modern game. It's a goddamn shame S3&K can't get the treatment it deserves because of music-related copyright issues but if this new Sonic 3 A.I.R. remaster and Sonic 3 Complete ever join forces it will be quite the package.

 

[Xero grimlock]

sonic 3 and knuckles. mania had too many reused levels, and too many times the levels outstayed their welcome.

 

[SolidChamp]

Nothing launches you into a light speed level nostalgia trip like thinking back on the days of your friend slamming his Sonic & Knuckles and Sonic 3 Genesis carts together like a boss because he's literally the only kid on the block who owns both.

 

[Deleted member 3815]

Sonic 3 & Knunckles is better as it offers more original content than what Mania did with it's measly 4 new levels, with half being good with the other half being downright god awful.

I will give Mania for the animation though.

 

[WestEgg]

Sonic Mania might be great, but

Sonic 2 is peak Sonic.

Click to shrink...

This post speaks the truth.

 

[AaronMT]

Mania.

3 and Knuckles is a good game but some levels are just straight up slogs to run through.

 

[onpoint]

I like even solo 3 better if I'm being honest. I couldn't be bothered to finish Mania.

 

[Robsolete]

I absolutely loved the look and sounds of Mania but for me the level design, as well as the insistence on including literally anything from Sonic CD, were big drawbacks. The levels felt very much like a fan game and lacked a certain flow that I associate with the original trilogy. They were beautiful yes, but I found them generally unrewarding to traverse. Remove the time limit to allow for exploration without risking death, get rid of the points of no return and I feel they would be dramatically improved. And for the love of all things holy can we ditch that Sonic CD special stage, pretty please?

 

[Strangelove_77]

Can I just vote for regular Sonic Mania? I hate those new characters.

 

[Roubjon]

I think the second half of sonic mania kinda drops the ball and the bosses and levels become more frustrating than fun. Sonic 3 & Knuckles is my fav.

 

[Kyari]

Mania is so good, and its really neat that they brought back Mighty and Ray from obscurity.

 

[Lant_War]

Can I just vote for regular Sonic Mania? I hate those new characters.

Click to shrink...

I mean, you can ignore them.

 

[ThatsMyTrunks]

I don't agree with the results thus far, but any winner is a winner for all in this election.

 

[Kapryov]

Sonic 2 is the best "pure" Sonic game. Clearly.

Sonic 3 and Knuckles is also the best though, they equally share #1.

Sonic Mania comes close to being the best 2D Sonic, there's only a couple of small issues (one of which being that it's partially made up of reimagined zones instead of new ones).

I'll vote for S3+K in the poll.

 

[Saikyo]

The pinball bonus stage is terrible lol, not much better than make blue spheres the bonus stages in mania...Ray is a great addition with his "mario cape" moveset but Mighty unfortunately is not that great...

Also because of the longer stages its harder to finish mania in one sitting, after FBZ I need to pause when S3&K its near the end, death egg zone also is a slam dunk to end the game than Titanic monarch.

Talking about extras, s3&k let you play as knuckles in sonic 3 stages and play as hyper knux/sonic and let you save continues and lives, sonic mania plus encore mode is "neat" but the revised emerald stages are badly balanced compared to vanilla.

TL:DR Mania plus is a great game with a lot of stuff but S3&K is more balanced and "polished"...also it doesn't have original layout stardust speedway or oil ocean zone, both are boring stages...they saved metallic madness thought.

 

[BocoDragon]

Sonic Mania is excellent but as others have said, the recycled zones disqualify it from being the best ever Sonic to me. Sonic 3&K for me, but Mania is still great.

 

[AWizardDidIt]

Sonic CD baybee

 

[Aminga]

I loved mania but sonic CD will always be my favorite. Everything from the opening theme song to the time travel mechanic, it was amazing, and the first time you raced against metal sonic is something I wont ever forget!

 

[competentcuttlefish]

Another fun fact: this exists but we never got it

Click to shrink...

I hate you for reminding me

 

[Polioliolio]

However, Sonic 3 still had some aspects where it was better than Mania, things like having animations for every stage transition, twice as many special stages, having more zones, etc. Then the Encore DLC came along and elevated Mania to perfection.

These guys? Back

Actual bonus stages? Gotcha

An entirely new gamemode that changes level design, the color pallete, explains why the new characters are here and adds a ton of replay value? We got that as well!
​

And that's not even getting into the better competition mode (no more stretched screens!), quality of life updates (stage transitions for all acts!) and other content like the 7 hard-as-fuck special stages. Imo, Sonic 3 and Knuckles is on par with base Sonic Mania, but Plus is straight up the best Sonic game ever made.

I think S3&K could have a chance at competing if they released a remake on the retro engine that adds all the options from Sonic 3 Complete, maybe adds it's own Encore mode and also has new playable characters, but considering how much SEGA hates Sonic 3 and Knuckles existing, I doubt that's ever going to happen.

Click to shrink...

Some things I don't like about Mania +

The Bonus game is terrible. I can't believe playing the same pinball screen over and over again is considered acceptable. I'd rather have any other bonus stage. This just isn't very good and not fast playing enough for a bonus.

The Ray sprite is too big. Stand him next to Sonic. Make him Look up. His head is really big, and yet this character is otherwise shown to be somewhat smaller than sonic. The sprite just ain't there for me. It definitely has the rom hack feel.


That's somewhat nitpicky. I loved Mania. But I'm not sure I'd call overall better than the other Sonic games. Tough call, but it has some tiny quirks that keep it from feeling like the lost sonic game it appears to be.


edit: And yeah, needs more new brand new content. When they first showed Mania, I was like 'Oh shit, this is like the true Sonic sequel we never got', but it doesn't quite feel like that, it feels like a celebration of the older stuff, reworkings of sprites and mechanics. Still, again, have to say I love Mania. I will buy more Mania, but I stop short of calling it the best classic sonic game. It just feels separate.

 

[Confused Cheeseburger]

Mania is the best sonic game ever.

 

[Deleted member 34949]

Honestly? I think 3&K and Mania are on par. The first half of Mania (culminating in the Metal Sonic fight) is probably the greatest stretch of game in the entire series. But then on the other hand, everything from Lava Reef onwards in S3&K is bonafide platforming greatness.

I think I'd probably lean towards Mania even in spite of it's zone reuse because it's level gimmicks tow the line between "fun" and "overstays it's welcome" a bit more consistently than S3&K.

 

[Deleted member 48897]

I said a long time ago that I think Mania is great but I think S3K does a better job of presenting senses of place and progression (especially with the cute pantomime cutscenes between stages) and overall does a better job of mixing pure speed with more technical and annoying bits. I think Mania has obviously significantly better spritework and color management but has too many bits that feel like a chore to play -- and some levels are just too long.

I do like Mania's time attack mode though. That's the good shit right there.

 

[Lindsay]

No option for Sonic 3 vanilla? Cause that'd be my pick.

 

[No Depth]

Played Mania and S3K back to back a couple years ago.

It's close, but absolutely I overall preferred S3K. The updated levels in Mania were mixed. Some slightly improved, others worse I felt. Transitions were stronger in S3K(Complete), and there is something about the flow and package that just won me over.

I was a huge S1/2 fan way back in the 90's but never played 3K until after Mania. I didn't know what to expect and coming off Mania, I was shocked that I walked away thinking the older S3K was the best Sonic videogame I think I ever played.

 

[Deleted member 34949]

I do like Mania's time attack mode though. That's the good shit right there.

Click to shrink...

Mania's time attack reset button should be standard for any platformer with a time attack mode, tbh

 

[Polioliolio]

My vote goes to Sonic Mania (Plus), but I hope that future Mania games (if any) embrace Tyson Hesse's Classic Sonic design more with the sprites. For reference, here's a sprite mod that does exactly that.



Hell, embrace Tyson Hesse's art for all parts of Sonic, Classic & Modern.

Click to shrink...

Some of that looks pretty good, but there are some animation decisions I think look particularly bad and too cartoony.
I'm not opposed to embracing the animation style, but these sprites aren't all doing it well.

 

[lvl 99 Pixel]

they're both close to being perfect Sonic games

 

[SolVanderlyn]

While I appreciate the thread and do think it's Sonic Mania, crying out I'M BEING STEALTHY provides quite the opposite effect.

Sonic 3 is really close, though. I feel like I like half of Mania's zones more and half of S3 & K's more. Ice Cap and Mushroom Hill and Angel Island are great, but so are Mania's Lava Reef, Starlight and Studiopolis.

I only give it to Mania because it's newer and feels newer. Otherwise it's really hard for me to choose.

 

[Petohtalrayn]

Overall Sonic Mania, but 3 & Knuckles is a close second.

I agree with Dusk in that S3K does the cutscenes better and feels more consistent overall. Like, there's no moment to be found in Mania that felt as impressive as the interactive cutscene in hidden palace

Sonic Mania does the best it can to bring all the classics together into one package though. The overall mechanics are refined, level collision feels more polished, rolling up into a ball feels more reliable because of that. The remixed stages all ended up being more enjoyable and interesting for me. The elemental shields interacting with the environment is awesome and should be expanded on further. Drop dash is great.

The soundtrack in both games.. damn, just fantastic stuff. I was never a fan of CD's JP/EU soundtrack but absolutely love the Mania tracks for those stages.