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Sonic Mania dev Stealth launches Kickstarter for Vertebreaker, an action platformer [Update: Campaign Cancelled]
- Thread starter Lant_War
- Start date
It pains me to see some of the creators of the brilliant sonic mania finding things so difficult, and like many here I also hope that sega are engaging some of the creators at least to continue that project because it was so excellent.
But I think a lot of era truly doesn't understand how rare the mania situation was or how big companies usually treat their brands, most licensing deals involve teams going to big companies and pitching amazing ideas and then having to pay huge upfront costs as part of either a minimum guarantee or straight up one off licensing AND you'll be on the hook for all development costs AND it'll have a bunch of stipulations about how you can use it etc etc. the one adavantage if that kind of setup is the revenue generated is usually split so you won't be just a one off if you find success, though you're definitely not seeing close to most of that money. I assume this is how many of the other external ip licenses projects are handled.
Yeah that setup is dumb and more companies should be engaging talented and passionate indies to do interesting stuff with things they really aren't leveraging but that's also just the unfortunate business standard.
Anyway back to the main topic, best of luck to this creator and I hope their reboot of the Kickstarter goes well.
But I think a lot of era truly doesn't understand how rare the mania situation was or how big companies usually treat their brands, most licensing deals involve teams going to big companies and pitching amazing ideas and then having to pay huge upfront costs as part of either a minimum guarantee or straight up one off licensing AND you'll be on the hook for all development costs AND it'll have a bunch of stipulations about how you can use it etc etc. the one adavantage if that kind of setup is the revenue generated is usually split so you won't be just a one off if you find success, though you're definitely not seeing close to most of that money. I assume this is how many of the other external ip licenses projects are handled.
Yeah that setup is dumb and more companies should be engaging talented and passionate indies to do interesting stuff with things they really aren't leveraging but that's also just the unfortunate business standard.
Anyway back to the main topic, best of luck to this creator and I hope their reboot of the Kickstarter goes well.
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I think most of us (at least on Era) understand that a successful project like Mania doesn't equal a large payday for the developers.
I think what some of us are confused about is the apparent disinterest in Sega to capitalize on Mania's incredible success, both critically and commercially.
I guess it's possible Sega approached Stealth, Whitehead, and the rest of the team to develop a sequel....but I honestly doubt it. Sega should have created a brand new studio for these guys after Mania's success and let them go crazy on a brand new 2D entry.
I wonder if Sega resents that the sonic game that people loved didn't come from an inside development team.
I imagine the team getting upstaged by a totally different group of people could have hurt some egos. Kind of like Bethesda reaction to New Vegas being such a hit and even overshadowing FO3 in some ways.
I totally agree that it's a terrible move to ignore the success of the mania project, they should be going all in on this approach.
But many things done in the games industry make no sense to me and still continue because "that's just how things are done".
They haven't confirmed it either way but I could see it happening. It would really suck if Stealth was left out, though. Maybe he'll be invited to join in light of this move?
Also from what I remember, Whitehead himself was helping out with Freedom Planet 2, which probably means he's had a somewhat more secure paycheck.
I feel like some stuff should be clarified here though cause people here don't seem to actually know which Mania devs were involved with this or where they are at right now:
So Sonic Mania was made by a bunch of independent developers. This included Christian Whitehead, Headcannon, PagodaWest Games, as well as a bunch of people outside of those devs.
Christian Whitehead, PagodaWest, and some of the others who worked on Mania went on to start Evening Star. We don't really know what they're up to right now but it's fair to assume they're working on an (unannounced) video game. A couple of Mania's artists, Paul Veer and Midio, went on to work on Cadence of Hyrule.
Headcannon, which afaik only consists of Simon Thomley/Stealth, went on to work on projects with other people, which included a Darkwing Duck pitch that wasn't picked up, and is/was leading Vertebreaker. There can be a lot of reasons for why he's not working with Evening Star, him not working with them or on a Mania sequel doesn't necessarily mean he was screwed over, there's not really reason to believe that he was right now.
I hope he lands on his feet, I can imagine this Kickstarter failing being a motivation killer for him on top of being bad for him financially.
So Sonic Mania was made by a bunch of independent developers. This included Christian Whitehead, Headcannon, PagodaWest Games, as well as a bunch of people outside of those devs.
Christian Whitehead, PagodaWest, and some of the others who worked on Mania went on to start Evening Star. We don't really know what they're up to right now but it's fair to assume they're working on an (unannounced) video game. A couple of Mania's artists, Paul Veer and Midio, went on to work on Cadence of Hyrule.
Headcannon, which afaik only consists of Simon Thomley/Stealth, went on to work on projects with other people, which included a Darkwing Duck pitch that wasn't picked up, and is/was leading Vertebreaker. There can be a lot of reasons for why he's not working with Evening Star, him not working with them or on a Mania sequel doesn't necessarily mean he was screwed over, there's not really reason to believe that he was right now.
I hope he lands on his feet, I can imagine this Kickstarter failing being a motivation killer for him on top of being bad for him financially.
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Really sad to see someone put so much into a great game and get cut out from the rewards of its success.
I hope he finds some work soon to get out of debt. He's clearly talented, so someone should give him a chance.
I hope he finds some work soon to get out of debt. He's clearly talented, so someone should give him a chance.
Definitely would be a good way to use their money.
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First I've even heard of this game, was so excited seeing a Ristar-like game...and then the cancellation vid...
This is a depressing way to start the day. Best of luck to the team.
This is a depressing way to start the day. Best of luck to the team.
Sonic Mania is an incredible game, everyone involved should be doing great so this is heartbreaking.
Heartbreaking that someone as talented as Stealth wasn't able to convince enough people to back his game, and even more crushing that SEGA took advantage of dedicated, extremely talented developers by having Mania made under a very disproportionate revenue deal.
Hopefully he's able to land of his feet soon, I have to imagine somebody would want to pick him up. Much like what happened to Milton Guasti of AM2R, who then got scooped up by Moon Studios for Ori 2.
Hopefully he's able to land of his feet soon, I have to imagine somebody would want to pick him up. Much like what happened to Milton Guasti of AM2R, who then got scooped up by Moon Studios for Ori 2.
Was hoping this would be an announcement that they found a publisher or something.
I don't know the exact scope of Headcannon's involvement in Mania but I still think it's ridiculous that anyone involved with a project to the point where their logo gets a splash screen is forced in debt.
Feel awful for the devs and that video that was posted is downright depressing. Hopefully they can find some kind of success.
I don't know the exact scope of Headcannon's involvement in Mania but I still think it's ridiculous that anyone involved with a project to the point where their logo gets a splash screen is forced in debt.
Feel awful for the devs and that video that was posted is downright depressing. Hopefully they can find some kind of success.
Sonic Mania is one of the best games ive ever played, and one of its developers is broke two years after said game released. This is the games industry.
Guessing after the Forces fiasco they just decided to put Sonic games on the backburner for a while.
Which is a damn shame, since Mania 2 would have helped cemented that it was not a fluke and keep the train rolling.
Hurt so bad to watch this. My heart goes out to him and all indie folk. Its incredibly difficult to make it these days as a game developer. I circled the toilet myself after i got outta animation school from student debt as nothing I did paid anything. I was forced into college again to defer debt and into another field entirely and that's practically successful these days because I didnt capsize my life goin into the industry? It's like every story is a nightmare for everyone.
Such a horribly pricey industry that not only do creators not get paid but they have to go insanely into debt just to ship even if they get all the way to the end of development. Hurts to find out all he got was milestone money from mania. Changes my concept of what 3rd party developers actually make from things.
Such a horribly pricey industry that not only do creators not get paid but they have to go insanely into debt just to ship even if they get all the way to the end of development. Hurts to find out all he got was milestone money from mania. Changes my concept of what 3rd party developers actually make from things.
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Yeah, things weren't looking great for the campaign, and it's really sad to hear that merely two years after the release of Mania one of the developers is broke. Hope he can find other opportunities, because he's very talented.
SEGA confirmed earlier this year that they're working on the next Sonic game.
It's very hard these days to get a videogame Kickstarter funded for over 100k unless you have a well-known IP attached to it so asking for a quarter of a million is a complete non-starter.
I don't know their exact deal, but generally the entity that takes on the risk, takes on the reward. If you're funding the game, you get royalties. If you're being paid a flat fee to make a game, you don't, but you get the flat fee even if the game bombs. Like when I worked on the Penny Arcade RPGs, we self-funded the game so when it came out, we got the lion's share of the royalties with PA getting a smaller amount for the IP & what they did. Conversely, I would be fine with a deal with Sega where they paid us a good flat fee to make a Phantasy Star Mania & we didn't get a cent from royalties.
It is sad though that someone that was involved with a very successful game a couple years ago is having trouble getting funding to make a new game.
I don't know their exact deal, but generally the entity that takes on the risk, takes on the reward. If you're funding the game, you get royalties. If you're being paid a flat fee to make a game, you don't, but you get the flat fee even if the game bombs. Like when I worked on the Penny Arcade RPGs, we self-funded the game so when it came out, we got the lion's share of the royalties with PA getting a smaller amount for the IP & what they did. Conversely, I would be fine with a deal with Sega where they paid us a good flat fee to make a Phantasy Star Mania & we didn't get a cent from royalties.
It is sad though that someone that was involved with a very successful game a couple years ago is having trouble getting funding to make a new game.
Harsh. It's so risky to start a video game indie business on your own. My friends and I all have other jobs so when we made our game we were working full time at those jobs and making the game on the side. I absolutely feel like that's how you need to go about it because while a game can make big bucks, there's no guarantee how successful it will be. While Vertebreaker did look promising, I admittedly did not kick start it. I feel really bad for the guy and his team. They're talented people and hopefully they get another big break someday.
Sadly, external development is always treated like this by publishing companies. You agree on their terms and then fuck off if it sells a trillion copies.
To all devs, try to include a clause in your contract that includes a tiny, tiny share of sales (including streaming platforms and subscription-related downloads) so you can get a bit of a bonus if it's successful.
To all devs, try to include a clause in your contract that includes a tiny, tiny share of sales (including streaming platforms and subscription-related downloads) so you can get a bit of a bonus if it's successful.
That's some crazy shit that the Mania devs aren't getting any form of royalties. Sad to hear about Stealth's situation, I hope he finds a way to make things work in the future.
Well that was depressing :(
I hope Stealth bounces back. Join Galaxy Trail and make Freedom Planet Mania or something.
I hope Stealth bounces back. Join Galaxy Trail and make Freedom Planet Mania or something.
This just had to pop up and break during my internet news "vacation", hadn't it.
On one hand, I'm sorry for Stealth; he was definitely into this project, setting it up for a while. On the other hand I am not surprised at all that it didn't take off. Crowdfunding got harder these days, and their budget was realistic, etc..
The royalty situation is pretty standard in game dev from what I've seen on the news though. Not sure what the "shocked" people expected, especially since the whole thing got into the spotlight during SAG-AFTRA strikes.
On one hand, I'm sorry for Stealth; he was definitely into this project, setting it up for a while. On the other hand I am not surprised at all that it didn't take off. Crowdfunding got harder these days, and their budget was realistic, etc..
The royalty situation is pretty standard in game dev from what I've seen on the news though. Not sure what the "shocked" people expected, especially since the whole thing got into the spotlight during SAG-AFTRA strikes.
Stealth is the patriarch of the entire sonic hacking community, he is literally the one who started the entire scene. There would be no Christian Whitehead, without Stealth.
Neither does pointing out that Christian Whitehead was the director in the first place.
I really feel like Sega have done these guys propper dirty.
They single handedly revitilized the Sonic video games brand and made it respectable again.
Before Sonic games were an utter joke in how terrible they were.
They single handedly revitilized the Sonic video games brand and made it respectable again.
Before Sonic games were an utter joke in how terrible they were.
Pretty sure that was in response to people in this thread assuming Stealth's the entire Mania dev team. There's plenty of posts in here assuming that cause he's not working on a Mania 2, that Sega screwed him over. While the reality is a bunch of the Mania team, including the director Christian Whitehead, started their own studio (Evening Star) last year that Stealth's not a part of. And we have no idea if they're making a Sonic game, or if they even want to make one. There's also no reason to believe Sega (nor Evening Star) screwed Stealth over also.
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He's not making Mania 2, his company is assisting with Freedom Planet 2.
christian whitehead is personally assisting with freedom planet 2, but as far as i know evening star's next project is completely unannounced
Yup, on top of that looks like he's long been done with his work on FP2:
That was a very difficult video to watch. I hope he can land back on his feet, he's such a talent.
No, it was contract work. If the devs did get royalties then that would probably be a first for a game like this.
I was under the impression that this was the case, like how everyone assumes Alpha Dream's bankrupcy was because the 3DS sales were going south so the royalties weren't enough to add to their pay.
Thanks for your input. People in this thread don't really seem to differentiate between the Mania team, Evening Star and Headcannon. Mighty confusing for someone not all too familiar with their respective involvement with Sonic Mania and their respective current status.
You shouldn't be surprised that people on this forum are as ignorant as they are regarding game development.
Alpha Dream was a bit bigger, so maybe they could negotiate out some royalties, but if they got a flat payment instead the problem would be getting another flat payment for another project while previous ones did not work out. You know, just like with the "why didn't Sega order Mania 2" subthread here, except for the question part.
