Sonic the Hedgehog Community |OT| There’s no end to this franchise!

Setsune

Member
Oct 27, 2017
772
Basically 100% Middle Mouth for the Sonic characters. I know that's a divisive subject, but there's a lot of head-on Sonic shots in here.

It bugs me a little that the Luigi sequence doesn't have the usual Mario jump sound effects, even if it was just for the intro.
 

BlazeHedgehog

Member
Oct 27, 2017
363
I'm surprised by how budget that intro feels. These things used to feel so grandiose!



Now it's in game assets, in game lighting, no special rendering, but also like... just really flat direction in general? All the action is super pedestrian.

I mean, I guess I understand. Sochi 2014 really felt like they were struggling to adapt to the HD generation of consoles, and didn't have any kind of big scale CG intro to speak of at all. Rio's CG intro was also similarly bland, but I figured that was more about how poorly Sochi did.

But I guess this is just our lot now.
 

TheOGB

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
5,768
Even the main theme doesn't sound very exciting this time around. Weird.

And I forgot how 'early Wii era' the Rio opening felt.
 

Birdie

Member
Oct 26, 2017
5,828
Sonic Forces was like 9.99 the other day on PSN...over now.

Is it worth it at that price?
 

Village

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,891
Sonic Forces was like 9.99 the other day on PSN...over now.

Is it worth it at that price?
...do really want to play as shadow or fuck around in a sonic based CaC , if no then no. Even then buy it on PC so you can mod it

Basically 100% Middle Mouth for the Sonic characters. I know that's a divisive subject, but there's a lot of head-on Sonic shots in here.

It bugs me a little that the Luigi sequence doesn't have the usual Mario jump sound effects, even if it was just for the intro.
Middle mouth is best 1 billion percent.

Best the best design combo is, middle mouth and when an artist extends the nose part of their muzzle out a bit like Mickey mouse. Evan Stanley does it for the comics. Literally makes everyone look better
 

Setsune

Member
Oct 27, 2017
772
I think we're at a point where we're more down on Sonic Forces than Sonic 06. 06 is kind of a curiosity at this point. We know they were trying something big but fell flat on their face, we know they can do better by now, and when it blows up, it does so in spectacular fashion. It's a trainwreck of a game; literally, there's a level about trains repeatedly wrecking, often through no fault of your own.

But Forces? It's just... a bad version of Generations. They could've gone back to the Generations code base (before they mutilated it for Lost World) and just added in new levels and a few new gimmicks, and they would've been much better off. It feels like Plan C, like something huge fell through (Boom?), and so they gave up and scraped something together in the most boring and unimaginative way possible.

It's a shame because the Avatar stuff was approaching something neat. I like the basic idea of create-a-character, the wire grappling hook, and a Wispon with different ammo types with different effects.
 
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Professor Beef

Professor Beef

Official ResetEra™ Chao Puncher
Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,177
The Digital World
I dunno, it's hard for me to determine a "winner" between a race to the bottom re: 06 and Forces. Like, 06 objectively is a bad and broken game. But Forces, despite being a completed game in comparison (to my knowledge), has people mystified in how bland it is.
 

Xpike

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,257
i hate forces more than 06
at least 06 had some ambition behind it, an ambition that ended up being its downfall
forces is a wet fart that sonic team tried to pass as something else
 

Baladium

Member
Apr 18, 2018
2,607
Down in Pumpkin Hill
So much hate for Forces, and it’s totally reasonable. I bought it at launch full price, dumped 30+ hours into it, and enjoyed it for what it was, despite its many flaws. I’d recommend it for $10. Clearly I’m in the minority here on this. lol

But one of my great admissions of shame as a Sonic fan is never getting the chance to play through 06 in its entirety as a sort of “rite of passage”, if you will, so I can’t compare the two. I was too busy drowning in regret for getting conned into buying Sonic Genesis that year. 🥴
 

Rurouni

Member
Dec 25, 2017
571
Forces is the first mainline 3D Sonic where i actively wanted it to flop in spades the more i saw of it prior to release, spending four years only to have shat out a product so aggressively soulless and undercooked is beyond inexcusable. Fuck that shit.

Sonic Team absolutely deserved getting clowned by Mania existing, they bought the embarrassment upon themselves. The more I think about Forces the more angry I get, ugh.
 

SSF1991

Member
Jun 19, 2018
144
I bought it at launch full price, dumped 30+ hours into it, and enjoyed it for what it was, despite its many flaws. I’d recommend it for $10. Clearly I’m in the minority here on this. lol
You're not alone though! I enjoyed Forces too.

Unfortunately, it feels like discussing Forces in the Sonic fanbase is borderline impossible for me to do, even 2 years after it came out. Mainly because of the toxicity and entitlement.
 

Setsune

Member
Oct 27, 2017
772
You're not alone though! I enjoyed Forces too.

Unfortunately, it feels like discussing Forces in the Sonic fanbase is borderline impossible for me to do, even 2 years after it came out. Mainly because of the toxicity and entitlement.


"Toxicity and Entitlement"? Apologies if our standards aren't so aggressively low that "can't even approach the game they made six years beforehand on prior-gen hardware" draws our ire. What snobs we must be.

It's ok if Forces captures your attention; I could see a lot of younger people in particular being hooked by the "My Adventures with Sonic" angle. But don't play victim because we call out a wildly disapponting game for being so to the apparent majority of us. Sonic Team, whoever designed this game, clearly did not have a good finger on the pulse of what was wanted and expected of them by 2017. That's not entitlement, that's "Hey, singular fans are now making robust and functional engines for 3D Sonic gameplay. And badly edited writing, a bewildering plot with multiple missed opportunities (Null Space), and surprisingly low production values aren't making up for that technical shortcoming. Please step your game up, or find someone who will."

TL;DR: Don't get mad just because we're past eating whatever they eventually decide to slop on the plate.

Edit: For the record, I think they did get the message this time, and if my suspicions are correct and they're doing an SA1 remake, I believe it'll be a nice step up both tech and production-wise. Hiring back the Adventure Field designer was a good sign. That being said, if the next thing they wheel out is Sonic Forces 2: With New Hat, that wouldn't be a great look.
 
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Professor Beef

Professor Beef

Official ResetEra™ Chao Puncher
Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,177
The Digital World
Forces for sure had some bangers. At least it didn't screw up the bare minimum required of a Sonic game.
You're not alone though! I enjoyed Forces too.

Unfortunately, it feels like discussing Forces in the Sonic fanbase is borderline impossible for me to do, even 2 years after it came out. Mainly because of the toxicity and entitlement.
I'm not sure I would call criticizing Forces "toxic" since, while I tend to try to be easier on it than most people, it is very deserving of the very commonly used title "aggressively mediocre."

Although even with that, I would never be delusional enough to say that Sonic 06 had "ambition." That's just desperately trying to see something that isn't there.
 

ValKiryuSonicEX

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
1,036
I would say both had ideas that needed to be fleshed out with time or better management, but 06 had a lot more than technical problems, everyone can try to fix the game with mods and whatnot, but it still would be a mediocre game.

Forces is just...spinning wheels and return to some bad habits.

and if I'm gonna be honest? Infinite sucked (so does his theme), and I ain't too fond of some of the other series villains or "rivals" either.
 

Setsune

Member
Oct 27, 2017
772
Remember that epic rematch with Chaos?

Classic Sonic jumped at him once and he died in a cutscene.

Although even with that, I would never be delusional enough to say that Sonic 06 had "ambition." That's just desperately trying to see something that isn't there.
Eh, I mean they were trying to do the Sonic Adventure thing again, changing the style and tone of the series. There was a lot cut out just to get the game out of the door, which we know about to some extent. (You can even trick the game into loading things like the cars in downtown, bits of Super Sonic, only one console version has the gondolas, etc.) They originally planned to do 4 versions of every stage, but ultimately only released 3. They planned additional campaigns for every single playable character, including Metal Sonic. There were going to be anniversary music packs. There's a multiplayer mode, and some hint that there was online play planned, and the hint that the Secret Rings minigames may have originally been designed for '06. They were very proud of their engine doing time-of-day changes in real-time, and they were experimenting with some form of VR, or at the very least first-person gameplay.

Sonic '06 at least got the Very Hard versions, Boss Rush mode, and Team Attack Amigo stages as DLC. The only DLC Forces got was the preorder bonus Shadow episode with 3 stages, Super Sonic (which they initially intended to charge for after a bit), and a couple of Sega character outfits. Oh, and a meme shirt. They didn't even do more costume DLC, despite the avatar creator. That's really weird now that I think about it.

I think Sonic 06 was ambitious, probably way too much so. They were trying for a modern Final Fantasy atmosphere. They were trying to simultaneously release on two brand new consoles, at least one of which was well-known to be a pain to work on, for a strict holiday deadline. Their team got chopped in half for Secret Rings. They brought back the idea of a human girlfriend for Sonic, which they had planned back for Sonic 1, and let's not forget THEY KILLED SONIC. Now don't get me wrong, Sonic '06 failed to deliver on nearly all of this and faceplanted so hard that it left an indent on the concrete, and many ideas were bad to begin with, but they had ambition in spades, I think.

Edit: Silver was a character specifically designed to use in-engine physics interactions on items as his primary tool and weapon.
 
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TheOGB

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
5,768
I could see Forces being more frustrating for some because by all means it should have been a slam dunk, or at least an easy layup to simply do Generations but better. But after all that time and on next gen hardware it came out Generations but worse.

But it can't be understated how much of a mess Sonic 06 is. Maybe you'll find a trainwreck more entertaining in a way, but it's still a damn wreck.
 

Setsune

Member
Oct 27, 2017
772
But it can't be understated how much of a mess Sonic 06 is. Maybe you'll find a trainwreck more entertaining in a way, but it's still a damn wreck.
Oh, absolutely. 06 left some scars. I don't mean to sound like an evangelist for the game, my point was that it was ambitious, not good or well-executed or thought out.

06 is Plan 9 from Outer Space, and Forces is a forgettable made-for-TV RomCom. It's okay to like the RomCom, but a lot of people who watched it thought it was bland at best, and when you see it took 4 years to make and was directed by Guillermo del Toro, you're asking, "Uh, everything ok there, G. Man?"
 

BlazeHedgehog

Member
Oct 27, 2017
363
Sonic 06 was definitely ambitious. I get the feeling that game was originally pitched as an open world title. There's not tons of evidence to suggest this, and if it was pitched as open world it was probably axed super early on (like the time of day system). But the game was absolutely way, way, way bigger at some point. Like Setsune covered, there's evidence of just, tons and tons of stuff that was cut. Again, Setsune covered a lot of this, but just in the files:

- A more robust minimap with more icons to denote mission items, enemy positions, NPC positions, etc.
- I could have sworn when I went digging in the files for myself, I found evidence of racing time trial ghosts, but TCRF doesn't mention it...
- Online leaderboards (the world ranking from Sonic Adventure) was slated to return. It's possible they wanted you to be able to download time trial ghosts from the leaderboard.
- SA2-style sub-objectives for levels were planned, possibly tied to an unused mission mode menu
- From the sound of the text describing the menu, they intended to have a special co-op version of story mode with its own unique plot, with mention of having to "work together to reach the goal."
- Lots of multiplayer stuff was cut. The game was slated to have online multiplayer with way more modes than just racing. HUD elements for up to four players are still present on the disc, and magazine previews mentioned things like doing quizzes and stuff in multiplayer. There's also mention of a tag mode in the game files.
- Tons and tons of planned DLC. Very Hard, Super Hard and "Ultimate" difficulty modes are mentioned in the code (we only got one of those), as is the capability to have DLC for all of the "Amigo" sub-characters (Amy, Blaze, Tails, Knuckles, Rouge, and Omega). Also mentioned is DLC to play as Super Sonic, Super Silver, Super Shadow, and Metal Sonic.
- DLC was also meant to include the ability to watch the original Sonic 06 real time tech demo.
- DLC packs would also add classic music to the game, for some kind of music customization system similar to Sonic Generations.

And that's just leftovers. Who knows what stuff was considered for this game that never even made it that far in to the data.
 

Village

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,891
Forces is a conundrum.

Forces on one hand is a mediocre pile of nothing, with half hearted appeals to multiple parts of the fanbase that largely don't work, makes mistakes from 2006, reuses entire level design structure from colors, and due to the length of the game and its levels ...doesn't feel like much of game.

On the other it has in combination with mania has pushed sonic down a road where they can't rely on the things they were relying on anymore. Half heart appeals don't cut, mania exists folks want the real deal of thier sonic preference. And boost? Folks are now tired of that. They gonna have to go with something else, and they have been kinda avoiding that. And if they do nostalgia problably adventure nostalgia because they seem rather fond of that these days.... they gonna have to go whole hog. And they have been avoiding that. Either way forward, they gonna have to do some shit they kinda don't want to do.

This nothing game of disappointment and redundancy is somehow also the thing that I feel broke various camels backs.

The things I would give to know, what in the hell sonic game is being developed right now.
 

Rurouni

Member
Dec 25, 2017
571
Regarding initial plans for 06, it wouldn't surprise me if the other playable cast outside of Sonic/Silver/Shadow who were limited to segments of certain stages were planned to have more dedicated levels for themselves.
 

Supaidaman

Member
Oct 25, 2017
419
The things I would give to know, what in the hell sonic game is being developed right now.
That is how I'm feeling right now. I have no idea what they're doing and it just gets me more nervous (yeah lol)

A SA1 remake? Another Forces-like? Random different 3D game? Mania 2 by a random team inb4 dimps ?

Everything is possible and I have no faith in the team to deliver a good experience of any kind.
 

Village

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,891
I feel like mania 2 is like a seperate thing. Like there's a classic brand and if that happens, its gonna happen regardless of what's happening in 3d sonic , not as a response.

Everything is possible and I have no faith in the team to deliver a good experience of any kind.
Thanks for elegantly summing up how I feel.

Could litterally be anything. I personally think they might be in some ways leaning towards an adventure-ey thing. I made a thread about it, but they have been trying to ...actively make an effort to try and use adventure nostalgia since sonic boom('s premise ) . And they kinda haven't stopped and nostalgia is in vogue so that's where I feel. They might try a kinda serious story, might actually be another playable person .

I will say this, if that sonic cartoon is real, and it comes out before the new game. Might be a good vibe check for what the game might be in terms of visuals and tone
 

SSF1991

Member
Jun 19, 2018
144
"Toxicity and Entitlement"? Apologies if our standards aren't so aggressively low that "can't even approach the game they made six years beforehand on prior-gen hardware" draws our ire. What snobs we must be.

It's ok if Forces captures your attention; I could see a lot of younger people in particular being hooked by the "My Adventures with Sonic" angle. But don't play victim because we call out a wildly disapponting game for being so to the apparent majority of us. Sonic Team, whoever designed this game, clearly did not have a good finger on the pulse of what was wanted and expected of them by 2017. That's not entitlement, that's "Hey, singular fans are now making robust and functional engines for 3D Sonic gameplay. And badly edited writing, a bewildering plot with multiple missed opportunities (Null Space), and surprisingly low production values aren't making up for that technical shortcoming. Please step your game up, or find someone who will."

TL;DR: Don't get mad just because we're past eating whatever they eventually decide to slop on the plate.
I never said it was wrong to dislike this game. In fact, despite me enjoying the game, I still think it's flawed and it could've been much more enjoyable. I completely understand why people don't like Forces. I also understand that there are some people out there that don't take criticism of a video game that well, and they've mentioned "toxicity and entitlement", like I did, with different intentions. I've seen that myself. But that doesn't mean you should get so defensive at me because of that. We don't know each other at all. Besides, unfortunately, there are also some Sonic fans out there (not all of them, but more than I'd like to see) that have been very hostile to people who have enjoyed this game, and it has been very unwelcoming to those like me. And I mean "fuck you for liking this game, my opinion is fact and you're why we can't have better things" hostile. I've been on the receiving end of that many times. I just want people to criticize a game without being a dick about it. That's the toxicity and entitlement I refer to.

Perhaps I should've been more clear in what I meant, as I get so blunt with expressing how I feel that the context behind it can sometimes get lost, but that doesn't mean you should make assumptions and put words in my mouth. I also don't appreciate being told I'm "playing victim", when you have no idea what I've had said to me in the 2 years that this game has been out.

I'm not sure I would call criticizing Forces "toxic" since, while I tend to try to be easier on it than most people, it is very deserving of the very commonly used title "aggressively mediocre."
I never said criticizing Forces was toxic. I never even said "Forces was good". Just that "I enjoyed it". Hell, I've criticized the game as well. I just want to have a peaceful, mature conversation about this game. That's all.
 

Setsune

Member
Oct 27, 2017
772
Regarding initial plans for 06, it wouldn't surprise me if the other playable cast outside of Sonic/Silver/Shadow who were limited to segments of certain stages were planned to have more dedicated levels for themselves.
They absolutely were. I think the general belief is the Team Attack Amigo DLC where you play as Tails, Blaze, and Omega was them scavenging the best of what they could finish. (It's worth noting they even slightly improved Tails' controls in this mode, but only this mode.)


Unless you meant completely fresh themes, locations, etc, built uniquely for them?
 
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Baladium

Member
Apr 18, 2018
2,607
Down in Pumpkin Hill
You're not alone though! I enjoyed Forces too.

Unfortunately, it feels like discussing Forces in the Sonic fanbase is borderline impossible for me to do, even 2 years after it came out. Mainly because of the toxicity and entitlement.
🤜🤛

And I mean "fuck you for liking this game, my opinion is fact and you're why we can't have better things" hostile. I've been on the receiving end of that many times. I just want people to criticize a game without being a dick about it. That's the toxicity and entitlement I refer to.
Unfortunately this sentiment is all too common on Era (and heck, anywhere nerd stuff is being discussed). It will always exist. And the Sonic fanbase in particular will always be subdivided into groups that tolerate and defend praiseworthy aspects of the consensus mediocre games and those that will never find those games redeemable no matter what.

I try to look at the positives as much as I’m able to, but Era makes it difficult to do that sometimes without second-guessing myself. lol
 

Setsune

Member
Oct 27, 2017
772
You literally just accused me of putting words in your mouth, then you agree with that statement. Ok.
 

DragonSJG

Member
Mar 4, 2019
2,831
Forces is a conundrum.

Forces on one hand is a mediocre pile of nothing, with half hearted appeals to multiple parts of the fanbase that largely don't work, makes mistakes from 2006, reuses entire level design structure from colors, and due to the length of the game and its levels ...doesn't feel like much of game.

On the other it has in combination with mania has pushed sonic down a road where they can't rely on the things they were relying on anymore. Half heart appeals don't cut, mania exists folks want the real deal of thier sonic preference. And boost? Folks are now tired of that. They gonna have to go with something else, and they have been kinda avoiding that. And if they do nostalgia problably adventure nostalgia because they seem rather fond of that these days.... they gonna have to go whole hog. And they have been avoiding that. Either way forward, they gonna have to do some shit they kinda don't want to do.

This nothing game of disappointment and redundancy is somehow also the thing that I feel broke various camels backs.

The things I would give to know, what in the hell sonic game is being developed right now.
Forces was such a waste and felt like false advertising .

I think they can make the boost work.
 
Oct 25, 2017
3,322
the problems with forces had nothing to do with it being a boost game. it was a very bad boost game that was obviously scrapped together on top of lost world's movement rather than built on the unleashed/generations gameplay engine. it felt wrong and it moved wrong and the level design was awful.
 

Village

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,891
the problems with forces had nothing to do with it being a boost game. it was a very bad boost game that was obviously scrapped together on top of lost world's movement rather than built on the unleashed/generations gameplay engine. it felt wrong and it moved wrong and the level design was awful.
I agree with everything you are saying

I also know we live in a world where sonic team interprets criticism the way it does and general audiences don't have the nuance to communicate that or that some of em even care to. And these things feed into themselves.

edit: Me personally I think boosting in combination with parkour and a SA2 like trick and scouring system I think is the way to go platforming wise sonic and friends have the potential to essentially be DMC platforming characters with the options and speed. I just don't trust the studio and the company who owns that studio to interpret the criticism they have been receiving in a way for us to get anywhere near that point. We have just gotten past "Ok maybe having a story of substance is fine" and we are till dealing with " Shitty Friends " aftermath. And its been years a decade + and its shown not to enhance these games, if anything the removal of characters or the paring down of their importance has made it a lot worse for people. And we are still dealing with this. The people making the criticism don't know or don't care in some malicious cases to actually specifiy for to look deeper into what the problem is. And it feeds onto itself, and sega to this day has shown inclination to not listen to these loud and to be honest wrong people.

Because and this is speculation on my part, they offer quick " Well if we just do this things will get better " solutions to the problems rather than actually having to go in and... think about why people like the stuff they like and how things work
 
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SmokedSalmon

Member
Apr 1, 2019
589

Another fan 3D Sonic control test thingy got a demo release today. I really like the way this one controls. Of course, this is just a test so there really isn't any levels or anything. Still a fun little thing to download and try though.

edit: It took me a while to figure it out but you switch between the trio by pressing F2. F1 will bring out those floating skate board things too which is an interesting touch.
 
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Sciz

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,545
An earlier version of that one was going around a while back, but it's nice to see that it's still under development. Easily one of the best in terms of control and animation work.
 

Village

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,891


Didn't know the animal characters also got the equestrian jackets.
Nice.

Those are some nice boots

also like the olympic shoes better than his normal ones...he should just wear those
 
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