I do enjoy Heroes more than Forces. Shadow? No way in hell lol. I hate pretty much everything in that game, for me it's an even worse display of all the faults in the series than 06 in some parts.
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Sonic the Hedgehog Community |OT| There’s no end to this franchise!
- Thread starter Professor Beef
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Shadow the Hedgehog is definitely the worst 3D Sonic by a country mile, at least by my measure. It's the only 3D Sonic game I never bothered to see the "true ending" for. I think I've seen 4 or 5 of the game's 11-ish endings and I cannot under any circumstances bring myself to see the rest. It's just too miserable to play.
Forces is the worst just because of how terribly, relentlessly, mediocre it is. Like, any previously bad game in the series you can at least try to say something about it: as bad of an idea as it was from the ground up, Shadow at least kind of goes head first into its dumb bullshit and becomes kind of camp for it, while it's vocal themes absolutely slap; as much of a mess as Sonic 06 is, there's a lot of ambition in them trying to really do a big, next gen take on the Sonic Adventure formula; the storybook games despite their game design issues do some fun, goofy things with placing the characters in Arabian and Arthurian myth; and as much as I dislike the execution I really appreciate the idea of scaling back to more of a platform focus like the first game and the early SMS games with Lost World's kind of "what if Sonic but Mario?" take.
Whereas Forces just feels like a gutted Sonic Generations
Whereas Forces just feels like a gutted Sonic Generations
Forces
Forces and lost world IMO kinda just feels like... obfuscating the lack of ideas. Forces in particular, just feels like a cynical appeal at three separate fan bases poorly. And is made worse mania...existing. A cool appeal to a very specific thing that is done well and has the time and money put into.
And to talk about the future on that note, its very clear since like...sonic boom that someone somewhere at sega realized that the people who liked sonic adventue era stuff are a market that can be sold to. Which is cool. But they have yet to put the time and effort and general commitment to something to sell to those people to actively entice them. And if they are going to continue to harken back to that time, like they tried to do with forces... they are gonna need to put the time money and effort in. And much like mania they need to focus on that. Because if they don't, we are gonna continue getting forces's .
Yeah it just feels...cynical. I feel like those older ones were " We have a good idea but we also have other ideas and we don't have the time and the money to work on all of these, oops here's a game " and maybe they weren't great but it felt like they were trying.
Forces and lost world IMO kinda just feels like... obfuscating the lack of ideas. Forces in particular, just feels like a cynical appeal at three separate fan bases poorly. And is made worse mania...existing. A cool appeal to a very specific thing that is done well and has the time and money put into.
And to talk about the future on that note, its very clear since like...sonic boom that someone somewhere at sega realized that the people who liked sonic adventue era stuff are a market that can be sold to. Which is cool. But they have yet to put the time and effort and general commitment to something to sell to those people to actively entice them. And if they are going to continue to harken back to that time, like they tried to do with forces... they are gonna need to put the time money and effort in. And much like mania they need to focus on that. Because if they don't, we are gonna continue getting forces's .
I understand Lost World hate, but I thought the ideas were okay. Level design wad pretty good imo. The fact that they didn't bother to get the controls right makes me lose faith in the franchise though. It's kinda baffling that they never bothered to actually get them right now that I think about it.
This is why I say Iizuka should be fired. He's far to close to the series to notice any of the criticism we are talking about.
I don't think the level design was good or a lot of the ideas. I think the only premise that's interesting is parkour as a navigation system, but that isn't even utilized in a way that is actually interesting. But that's me personally.
I enjoyed Sonic Forces, not enough to recommend it wholeheartedly, and it is one of the weaker 3D Sonics. It's just amazing in its vanilla flavor, and too many of its stages start up and end when things start picking up.
As an aside, I picked up the new Jakks Sonic figures at Target over the weekend, and I really like them. They're pose-able and bend-able instead of jointed. I hope these do well enough so we can get figures like Eggman, Amy, Blaze, etc.
As an aside, I picked up the new Jakks Sonic figures at Target over the weekend, and I really like them. They're pose-able and bend-able instead of jointed. I hope these do well enough so we can get figures like Eggman, Amy, Blaze, etc.
Why does it look like the bigger sonic's are in charge and are trying to plan an escape.I enjoyed Sonic Forces, not enough to recommend it wholeheartedly, and it is one of the weaker 3D Sonics. It's just amazing in its vanilla flavor, and too many of its stages start up and end when things start picking up.
As an aside, I picked up the new Jakks Sonic figures at Target over the weekend, and I really like them. They're pose-able and bend-able instead of jointed. I hope these do well enough so we can get figures like Eggman, Amy, Blaze, etc.
Forces is straight up the worst mainline Sonic game. There is nothing of value in it whatsoever. It has no reason to be played. Sonic 06 might not be good, but there are some things of value in it and I don't regret playing it. Forces is just such a nothing of a game. Even the goddamn music sucked. The music. In a Sonic game. Unbelievable.
Technically, Forces is less bad than 06. Forces though is much more dull and lifeless. I'm still salty about Heroes being made instead of a Sonic Adventure 3.
I don't think Iizuka's removal is going to do anything to make for positive change. In fact, with how instrumental he was in getting the likes of Mania greenlit in the first place, excising him may just make things worse, if it means we can't get more like that.
What I'm hoping the whole restructuring of its studios that Sega has done in the last few years will just make it so that "Sonic Team", part of the newly boosted CS2, will now have access to two things that they've lacked: a wealth of talent to help make the games better and the dev time to make it so.
I know the new, action-oriented direction for Shin Sakura Taisen isn't to everybody's liking, but at the very least, I would say that game is doing a decent job of showing off what the Hedgehog Engine 2.0 can do more than Forces ever could. Gives me hope that they'll only continue to get better with it.
Maybe I just liked ideas thrown into the levels. Low tier Mario, but I think it was the most fresh in all of the series.
I'm tired of people trying to credit Iizuka with mania. He had years to make a mania type game and never saw it through. Yes, he was the one that told them to remix old levels instead of just a few new ones but he's washed up.
He's not a visionary when it comes to gameplay, controls, or story. I've seen enough, even his good games arent exactly great ideas. I'm not saying he bares sole responsibility, it's obvious a bunch of people there need to go.
The franchise is surviving off meme ability these days. It's an embarrassment.
And Forces was the last straw for me. Terrible classic gameplay, terrible writing, terrible 3d gameplay, nonexistent level design (this is probably segas trash budget), They made a game to appeal to boost, classic, and adventure fans and proved they don't understand any of them.
This is a failure on all front. Somebody has to go.
There is SO MUCH busywork to be done in Shadow, and it's impossible to tell whether or not you missed something if you don't follow a guide. For all the faults of Sonic Heroes -- and Shadow does improve on it on one front by allowing warps between checkpoints -- unless you were playing as Team Chaotix you knew more or less what you were in for, and it was the stuff most people liked out of SA2. I just want a mod that lets me skip the tutorial when playing as Team Rose.
Lost World is the first time i legitimately had serious buyers remorse for a 3D Sonic game (which says a lot) and easily hits many notes of everything I fucking hate about the current direction of modern sonic games right down the Pontac-tier script, having the audacity to resort to ripping off Mario of all things is too much of a mockery swallow.
For me its worse than 06 & Shadow combined, i didn't even bother with Forces nor Boom just by virtue that their existence as is is enough to make me despise them as soulless products. I'd really like to believe that Haruki Satomi's comments about wanting to win back fan trust in 2015 was more than lip service because as it stands this in my belief the shittiest era of all time for Sonic games, yes even worse than fucking the Saturn era.
For me its worse than 06 & Shadow combined, i didn't even bother with Forces nor Boom just by virtue that their existence as is is enough to make me despise them as soulless products. I'd really like to believe that Haruki Satomi's comments about wanting to win back fan trust in 2015 was more than lip service because as it stands this in my belief the shittiest era of all time for Sonic games, yes even worse than fucking the Saturn era.
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I beat Shadow 100%, lost the save file, and while I've replayed Unleashed, Heroes, Colors and countless runs of SA1, it is absolutely unthinkable that I'd go back to achieve that again. I'm too old for that shit
I had an Action Replay and a cheat code to make Shadow basically play itself via infinite Chaos Control and I still couldn't be bothered to get six endings
Has anybody here got the 326 "variants" of endings in Shadow The Hedgehog? That must be a fun ride
There's a speed run category for that and last I remember hearing the record was 13 hours?
What'd he say he was gonna do with Scourge?
A lot of dropped plot threads, pre first reboot, had me super in. Mecha Sally, what happened to the echidnas, Geoffrey St. John's (and Hershey's) fate, who the real traitor was, etc. When the reboot happened, I completely understood why it was necessary, but it didn't make it sting any less.
This reminds me of how much I actually enjoyed what they were doing with Thrash the Tasmanian Devil. The idea of having the last survivor of a race that was historically screwed over by Knuckles' people in the past, and thus, having a major bone to pick with Knuckles, was something that I could have seen living on in the reboot (or IDW).
Too bad, for obvious reasons, the character had to go because he was attached to the "Penders' Echidnas" storyline, instead of say, having roots from Tikal's era.
Thrash was a great addition, I wanted to see his and Knuckles's feud get even more fierce (certainly felt like it was heading that way).
To respond to the bottom part, I always feel weird in this conversation. Because I didn't like most of the shit in the prereboot comics the stories or anything, there were a few cool characters but I was largely ok when they throw that shit in the trash. It was cathartic for me when Ian literally had a character throw all of knuckles's family in the trash.
As for the top part, on his podcast he didn't say too much but he basically explained he would be this super huge world level threat but failed to mention the core of why that character worked and he seemed to be making the same mistake DC made. Someone on the previous page suggested that scourge is the reverse flash, no that's inaccurate scourge is superboy prime.
For all those unfamiliar super boy prime is the superman from the prime universe who got trapped a time pocket with earth golden age superman and lois and with alexander luthor. He makes a sacrifice that allows the DC universe to live. This was during an event basically meant to clean up the DC universe and make it a single universe for a while. Later when that descion was going to be reversed they decided to bring the character back, but like scourge he became a living parody. Eventually superboy prime is defeated an sent to a version of our universe where's just some nerd on a computer living in his moms basement complaining about the golden days of comic books.
And that's what I think scourge is , or rather functions best as, a parody. Scourge how I interpeted him Is basically what people think sonic characters are ( and a parody of some fan-fiction characters ) He's litterally a recolor of sonic with character design/personality alamagamations from various characters who gets a girl for... no reason other than merely existing because he has no interesting personality whatsoever and think he's the coolest thing in the world. Under ian's pen everyone hates him and thinks he's shitty because they are basically reacting to a purposefully shittier version of them. And if you want to bring scourge back I feel he should continue being that parody. He shouldn't be like they did with superboy prime for a while/ what they keep teasing is just bring him back for the sake of bring him back, you loose the parody. It felt like Ian was just going to bring him back to make him a world level threat. Maybe upon further elaboration he does go into the parody thing. But I feel like just bring him back ruins it. If he comes back, he should either be a complete joke and characters are beyond him, or any power he gets should be something he trips and falls into like last time and takes credit for it.
However I would prefer if scourge just... never came back? He is associated with ... kinda the worst thing to happen in a peice of sonic media, and much like a lot of the other archie mainstays there is so much of a bad taste in my mouth I would prefer them all gone.
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Ian flynn is great and legit think he should work on the games. Ian flynn has flaws and one of those lets me totes believe in a reboot scenario he would just bring scourge back change him for reasons and it would just loose the sting it had. I like ian's willingness to flip the scipt, sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't.
I'll be one of the first to admit that pre-reboot Archie had a LOT of garbage about it (and I do mean a LOT), and I think it was honestly for the better that the reboot had to jettison quite a bit of it. Namely, the echidnas, as well as how the original video game and SatAm characters (except Sally) being largely sidelined in a series that was originally built for them.
That said, however, I do find myself missing quite a bit of some of the old stuff, as well. The whole multiverse appeal, or at least, Scourge and the increasingly "Transfomers Shattered Mirror-esque" Evil Mobius setting. Mammoth Mogul, once we got past the bullshit "chosen one" stuff with Tails, and a guy who was just more like an immortal, Kingpin-like character, content to "wait his turn" until Sonic lived his lifespan while doing his shady business. Where they seemed to going with the Dark Arms. What could have been with Thrash, the very one who did us all a solid when he got rid of all the echidnas. And a few other bits here and there, like Shard.
Admittedly, we're still VERY early on in the IDW Sonic's career, and I do hope that it enjoys a very long life. But much like the IDW TMNT series, I do hope that it finds a way to "eventually" rework elements from other, older media into itself. Because there's certainly some stuff from both pre and post reboot that I would like to see reworked into the new ongoing. And if actual game characters like Fang, Mighty, Ray, Bean and Bark aren't going to be included, anyway, then it wouldn't be like "they're (re)introducing material that could have been reserved for actual SegaSonic content".
I don't hate every archie thing, but i'm not fond of a lot of it. And I can understand if you like more of it you want it reincorporated. Now recently Ian flynn did one of his teases at some archie annoucement, this could be nothing or it could be the thing you wanted.
Personally I just don't think those elements will ever come back, for a few reasons. I think IDW's success plays into that I feel
(Unfortunately) Flynn's tease was actually for something unrelated, a Cosmo the Mighty Martian revival. Not that I was expecting anything relating to Archie Sonic, and again, that's something that I don't think will be touched on for a while. But at least it seems he's still hopeful. There's likely reasons why Flynn's been pretty hush-hush on doing anymore continuances for "Lost Hedgehog Tales", and I'm sure doing things like taking the Metal Virus, which was originally intended for the lead up to #300, and plopping them into the IDW run, are just a sample of that.
And I'm a patient guy.
On the topic Forces: I think there is a lot, lot worse out there within the franchise. It is not even really that bad, just really stupid/embarrassing. It is very easy too. I got all of the achievements pretty casually except the one that expects you to get some ungodly amount of rings.
I think it is very very far from being the worst 3D Sonic game outright, but it feels like the one with the least passion put into it for sure. I would say 06 or Lost World 3DS is the worst mainline title. Although I find them more charming in their own crappy ways if that makes sense.
I think it is very very far from being the worst 3D Sonic game outright, but it feels like the one with the least passion put into it for sure. I would say 06 or Lost World 3DS is the worst mainline title. Although I find them more charming in their own crappy ways if that makes sense.
Forces is not a good game, but saying it's worse than Sonic 06 or even the worst Sonic game seems more like recency bias at play since the game still relatively fresh. Forces is a C- while Sonic 06 gets an F. Hell the story book games and Boom are way worse. The worst thing about Forces is that it exists.
I'd agree that out of the 3D games, Forces has the least amount of passion put into it, which is why I think it's judged harsher than maybe what it deserves. Unlike say '06, there's nothing inherently bad or broken, and if you enjoy the boost formula, you can eek out some fun. Personally, I enjoyed it far more than Lost World, and somehow got 40 hours of mileage out of it. With that said though, Forces is a budget title, and a mediocre one at that, so I wouldn't recommend it unless you're a big fan of the boost gameplay.
I don't think anyone is saying it is on a technical level worse than boom or 06. Its just... as a game a lot less interesting an engaging than both of them. As an game how it presents itself is incredible cynical and I don't think its wrong to point that out. And I think its cynicality and how it approaches its presentation can definately leave a worse taste in someone's mouth than a technically bad game that kinda has some fun shit in it.
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Actually, he says it took him 53 days and basically had to take breaks to get it done. Some of that is because the game crashed (98 times, according to his stats).
The actual timer recorded 181 hours of play for the 100% full clear. If played without taking any breaks, that's seven and a half days. He said that was his first and will likely be his only attempt at doing it.
It's at least possible to beat Forces while not insignificant portions of 06 are straight up unplayable unless you have a lot of patience. Shit like the endless combat sections, the ball puzzle, and the mach speed sections put it far below any Sonic game because none of it is fun. Anybody interested is better off watching a let's play or a review to get the most enjoyment out of it which is something that can't be said about any other video including Forces.
OP
OP
Man if that game crashed ONCE on me I would just assume the universe is giving me a sign.
I think being completely uninteresting and inspiring no desire to play the game is its own kind of failure and should not be discounted. Is forces unplayable? No you can play it and beat it quickly. It is somehow to me less interesting than multiple " unplayable " games and that's a massive failure in its own right
I don't get fully on board the Forces hate train but, like, it's yet another game that does Green Hill Zone again followed by Chemical Plant Zone again.
What an absolute legend.
You'd have to pay me good money to do what he did.
The final hit really. I try to xatch up and be in range for a homing shot but the icon doesnt show up
Edit- wait maybe it is this mod i am uaing that ia affecting the boss' hitbox and stuff?
That's when you skydive right? I think you just have to get right next to his cockpit basically. Both vertically and horizontally aligned. There's not really a trick to it. Though I think you can also get the final hit during the running sections too.