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Sony details their Cross Point ReRAM SSD technology [hard specs, potential PS5 SSD tech]

Oct 26, 2017
4,140
In April, Mark Cenry mentioned to Wired that PS5 will use a new advanced SSD technology that will be customized to provide access speeds that are higher than anything currently avaiable on the PC market. In the months after that, AMD introduced PCIe Gen4 to PC users, boosting SSD speeds from ~3GB/s to ~5GB/s [and above for RAID solutions]. Many have believed that Sony would use some version of this traditional NAND tech, only optimized for faster use and smaller CPU overhead.

But now, Sony has detailed their new big persistent memory technology push that aims to become direct competitor in to Intel's Optane. They call it Cross Point ReRAM, and they are accelerating to deliver it to market in 2020. Advantage of ReRAM is ability to become cheaper with smaller process nodes [Optane will not be easy beyond 14nm], faster speeds than NAND, less power and heat than NAND, etc. They are focusing a lot of their efforts on making a smart and low-power controller for this type of drive.



Target specs:
128GB drive [8 x 16GB] - 25.6 GB/s read, 9.6 GB/s write, PCIe gen5 x8, target wattage 14.6W+
256GB drive [16 x 16GB] - 51.2 GB/s read, 19.2 GB/s write, PCIe gen5 x16, target wattage 27.2W+


Price is unknown, but 25 GB/s read is a tremendous number. That's today PC DDR4 RAM speed area, and total decimation of retail PC SSDs. 16 chip version has faster [presumably sequential] read speeds than any consumer-made non-OC PC RAM drive. :)

If PS5 is using this technology, we should stop expecting large primary memory pool for launching games. The setup will undoubtedly use smaller ReRAM drive [even this 128GB is insane enough, they could gimp it to work at high speed and it will still be a monster] and mass "cold storage" drive with cheaper SSD/HDD.






Transfer speeds of older tech:
  • Today's retail PCIe gen4 x4 NVME SSDs top at around 5 GB/s.
  • Mass consumer PCIe gen3 NVME SSDs are around 3 GB/s
  • Old SATA3 SSDs are 512 MB/s
  • PS4 - HDD in PS4 [with very slow seek speeds of a laptop drive] is 150 MB/s sequential, 40 MB/s for small files [and can go lower for very small files, PS4 Spider-Man was made to load 20MB/s while Spidey is swinging across the city]
  • PS3 - 22 GB/s to VRAM, 25.6 GB/s to system memory [not counting other caches]
  • Xbox 360 - 21.6 GB/s to VRAM, 22.4 GB/s to system memory [not counting other caches]
  • Nintendo Switch - 25.6 GB/s to system LPDDR memory [at 1600MHz]
  • PC DDR4transfer rates:
    • DDR4 2133:17 GB/s
    • DDR4 2400:19.2 GB/s
    • DDR4 2666:21.3 GB/s
    • DDR4 3200:25.6 GB/s
 

Patitoloco

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,479
jeff_rigby, is that you?

It's a really interesting subject, it seems like a big improvement even compared to regular SSDs. Which makes me believe it's expensive as hell.
 

dark-shodan

Member
Oct 26, 2019
15


Sony Corp started to commercialize an ReRAM (resistive random-access memory) being developed by Sony Semiconductor Solutions Corp.

The ReRAM is targeted at "storage-class memories (SCMs)," non-volatile memories that feature a higher speed than NAND flash memory and fill the gap between DRAM and NAND flash memory. If an ReRAM for SCMs is commercialized, it will be a product in a new category for the Sony group, meaning a new business.

Specifically, Sony aims to commercialize an ReRAM developed based on Sony Semiconductor Solutions' cross point-type ReRAM suited for integration. In June 2017, Sony announced it as a technology that can realize 100-Gbit-class integration at 2017 Symposium on VLSI Technology (VLSI Symposium) (See related article).

At Flash Memory Summit (FMS) 2019, the world's largest-class event on flash memory, which took place from Aug 6 to 8, 2019, in Santa Clara, the US, Sony announced a driver technology for ReRAM, indicating that the company is moving forward with the development for commercialization.


As a memory for SCMs, there is Intel Corp's "Optane" non-volatile memory using the "3D XPoint" technology. While the Optane has a large presence in the SCM market, Sony emphasizes that its ReRAM has a smaller power consumption and can be more easily densified than the cross point-type phase-change memory (PCM) used by the Optane. Sony plans to release a module product at the time of commercialization as in the case of the Optane.


Sep 27, 2019



This news is from Nikkei Business known as very credible source.
 

MickZan

Member
Oct 28, 2017
404
I have no clue what this all means. Does this mean it comes with some kind of chip that can read normal HDDs really fast?
 

Whiterose

The Fallen
Oct 26, 2017
8,937
New York
Target specs:
128GB drive [8 x 16GB] - 25.6 GB/s read, 9.6 GB/s write, PCIe gen5 x8, target wattage 14.6W+
256GB drive [16 x 16GB] - 51.2 GB/s read, 19.2 GB/s write, PCIe gen5 x16, target wattage 27.2W+
Something tells me PS5 will not ship with 128GB. Even 256GB is garbage. I'm scared, hold me Jeff.

Edit: Whoops. Read it wrong as it being the sole drive in the console.
 
Last edited:

Whiterose

The Fallen
Oct 26, 2017
8,937
New York
Its supposed to be an additional layer between SSD and RAM i think, not a replacement of either one
Interesting, so a space where games are off-loaded temporary, like RAM?

So you'll need an SSD and this acting together. Now I see it. I can definitely see 128GB for base consoles, and 256GB for the Pro version.
 

dark-shodan

Member
Oct 26, 2019
15


Sony has established the memory business unit, device structure, memory implementation, circuit design, to full-scale development of such applications. Had once made the SRAM, the memory revival of 20 years. The CMOS image sensor of the match ball, but now are equipped with DRAM to be produced at Micron Hiroshima factory, it is a strong possibility to mount a ReRAM the future. ReRAM is unnecessary complex software development, excellent low power consumption, it is suitable for large capacity. In the future, the possibility to go eat a part of the DRAM and flash is enough. I where is might have become important do this foundry.


from Google translation.
 

Tokklyym

Member
Oct 28, 2017
162
Torrana
This is super interesting and impressive.

But I wonder if that means the mass storage solution will still be a platter drive?
 
OP
OP
DieH@rd
Oct 26, 2017
4,140
IMO, the most cost effective use of this tech is:

128GB of half-speed ReRAM [still a beast] + 1TB commercial mass storage user-interchangeable M.2 drive [+external USB drive for expansion if user wants it].


Hasn't this been squashed in the next thread due to rerams rediculous costs?
We'll know for sure in less than 6 months when Sony officially details PS5.
 

modiz

Member
Oct 8, 2018
7,297
Interesting, so a space where games are off-loaded temporary, like RAM?

So you'll need an SSD and this acting together.
yea, what this would mean is the game will load itself onto the ReRam, a portion of the game that is currently needed most on the Ram itself, and then in gameplay you could switch the data in the ram in practically no time.

this would also mean that SSD drives will be replacable as devs wont need to have an SSD baseline for in game streaming.
 

lemmykoopah

Member
Oct 29, 2017
349
Anyone else not feeling excited at the prospect of these SSD techs being an important selling point for next gen? I mean, this generation I've rarely been annoyed by excessive loading times or sluggish behavior during installs, patches etc. Am I missing something here?
 

mnz

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,733
So, how much does it cost? Anything smaller than 128 GB available?
I feel like the price point is really important for PS5.
 

TheUnforgiven

Member
Nov 23, 2018
246
IMO, the most cost effective use of this tech is:

128GB of half-speed ReRAM [still a beast] + 1TB commercial mass storage user-interchangeable M.2 drive [+external USB drive for expansion if user wants it].



We'll know for sure in less than 6 months when Sony officially details PS5.
I dont understand how this can be made possible at the price point of a console, even if we're looking at $500.

Also the abundant usage of PCIE in the form factor of a console seems hard.

4xPCIE 64gb of that ReRam with a 512 gb SSD for cold storage might be doable, anything over that feels hard to believe when pricing is a strong focus.

Anyone else not feeling excited at the prospect of these SSD techs being an important selling point for next gen? I mean, this generation I've rarely been annoyed by excessive loading times or sluggish behavior during installs, patches etc. Am I missing something here?
Have a look at spiderman demo running on this, this widly impacts how gameplay can be conceived, its not just load times.
 

nsilvias

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,419
Anyone else not feeling excited at the prospect of these SSD techs being an important selling point for next gen? I mean, this generation I've rarely been annoyed by excessive loading times or sluggish behavior during installs, patches etc. Am I missing something here?
gameplay potential is held back by loading speeds
 

Kemono

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
2,247
If this is build into the PS5 how can MS compete?

Even ith ssds ms would have load times and sony nearly none.
 

Sei

Member
Oct 28, 2017
2,616
LA
Memristor, I thought I'd never hear that again.

50 GB/s is an insane number. I hope they do it.
 

CosmicGP

Member
Oct 28, 2017
1,578
Anyone else not feeling excited at the prospect of these SSD techs being an important selling point for next gen? I mean, this generation I've rarely been annoyed by excessive loading times or sluggish behavior during installs, patches etc. Am I missing something here?
Yes.

Current games don't take advantage of SSD speeds so it only speeds up regular PC games some.

But apparently if devs start developing games with SSD as standard spec, we're going to see something special.
 
OP
OP
DieH@rd
Oct 26, 2017
4,140
Anyone else not feeling excited at the prospect of these SSD techs being an important selling point for next gen? I mean, this generation I've rarely been annoyed by excessive loading times or sluggish behavior during installs, patches etc. Am I missing something here?
Some games do have excessive load times, but more importantly, devs want more speed so they could make much more ambitious games. According to some reports, faster storage is their #1 request for nextgen. SSDs will enable creation of much more impressive games, less "finger in the ear/crawl through a crack" artificial slowdowns, larger openworld games, faster movement through such games, and possibly, brand new genres.

Most famously, Insomniac devs limited themselves to 20 MB/s of open world data transfer when Spidey is swinging across the city. They went that low because HDD in PS4 is interchangeable, and users can put 10+ year old laptop shit drive with awful speed in it and all games HAVE to work on it. They had to invest a lot of effort on optimization and compression of data to achieve the visuals we got.
 

panda-zebra

Member
Oct 28, 2017
1,622
Anyone else not feeling excited at the prospect of these SSD techs being an important selling point for next gen? I mean, this generation I've rarely been annoyed by excessive loading times or sluggish behavior during installs, patches etc. Am I missing something here?
Seriously? Storage solutions dictate massively the absolute baseline for game potential, across platforms. Having SSD as standard raises the bar massively in terms of how games are planned and designed to how long we sit waiting to get into them and more besides.

And if I never see a fucking squeeze-through-the-gap disguised load again it'll be too soon. And as a Destiny 2 player, fuuuuuuuuck the time-to-game from boot for that on console.
 

Whiterose

The Fallen
Oct 26, 2017
8,937
New York
Anyone else not feeling excited at the prospect of these SSD techs being an important selling point for next gen? I mean, this generation I've rarely been annoyed by excessive loading times or sluggish behavior during installs, patches etc. Am I missing something here?
With better loading time, the bottleneck moves from drives; hard drive speed is a big bottleneck, so a cache drive that's fast may help. This also standardizes the console's read/write cycle. You'll see developers doing more with games, and it's not just loading time that'll benefit. It's loading large textures and enemies and maps and effects, and more without worries.
 

dark-shodan

Member
Oct 26, 2019
15



 For custom SSD is, dare from the fact that is referred to as a "custom", only that something from the existing SSD and mSSD is different is seen. Not leaving the only speculative, as mentioned the author at the expected of September, although the hybrid SSD large capacity combines HDD and SSD which the purpose, next-generation MRAM and ReRAM the SSD portion It is considered that it would realize the ultra-high-speed access in the adoption of the "custom" SSD. If the hybrid, the capacity of the SSD portion will compatible high capacity and cost containment since fewer.

Google Translation.

The writer is Trinity game studio developer, Tanigawa Hajime.
 

SmartWaffles

Member
Nov 15, 2017
3,169
I feel this is actually going to be some form of memory cards for their imaging business. It seems to be excessively expensive for something mainstream like a console.
 

modiz

Member
Oct 8, 2018
7,297
one of the most exciting things about using this technology in a console IMO, is that if the game is fully loaded on the ReRam, it could reload the entire Ram in less than a second, that would mean stuff like fast travel loading wont exist anymore, games like God of War could have instantaneous realm travel, etc. game data streaming will be a thing that devs wont need to even think about.
 

Kemono

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
2,247
ReRam is not exclusive to Sony.
That may be but if ms hasn't designed scarlet with ReRam in mind than maybe it isn't somethign they can just tack on now without changing to much.

This isn't tunring the clock dial up a notch on their pcu/gpu. This is new hardware.

I surely hope they have something like that in store or they'll not hear the end of it ( "if" the ps5 uses something like that).

They can get it from Samsung/Micron/whoever is willing to make it.
Is that something that can "just" be added at will if the hardware isn't designed to use it?
 
Feb 10, 2018
15,641
That may be but if ms hasn't designed scarlet with ReRam in mind than maybe it isn't somethign they can just tack on now without changing to much.

This isn't tunring the clock dial up a notch on their pcu/gpu. This is new hardware.

I surely hope they have something like that in store or they'll not hear the end of it ( "if" the ps5 uses something like that).
Well there's nothing to indicate either one has or has not designed there next gens with reram in mind.
MS + Sony do loads of things, and these things they do don't automatically have some kind of relation to there next gen consoles.