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5taquitos

Member
Oct 27, 2017
12,893
OR
Let me preface this post with a major caveat: I haven't actually owned a PS4 in over a year (not for lack of wanting one, just life stuff). These observations are based on news, reactions, threads here, and my own research.

I've been a lifelong Sony fan (something that would probably be immediately obvious with even a cursory look at my post history), but I'm feeling more disappointed in their actions, or lack thereof, as a company than I have in a long time. This may come off as a bit of a rant, but here are a few of the ways I feel that they've stagnated/lost touch, in no particular order:

  1. Crossplay – Not much needs to be said here that hasn't been said in countless threads already. Sony used to be the crossplay king, but they have retreated into their walled garden in recent years. I fear that they'll end up on the wrong side of gaming history if this continues.

  2. System updates – The last couple major version firmware updates have been lackluster at best, laughable at worst. 4.5, 5.0, and 5.5 have all had one or two good features surrounded by a bunch of blah. Compare this with their competition and it almost looks like they're not even trying. Dozens of highly-requested features remain absent or half-baked, and that's not even getting into PSN name changes. And why can't I use a disc install to play a digital copy?

    There's so much here specifically that I could get into—small and large tweaks that would vastly improve the user experience—but I won't bog this down with a feature request list. You all know what you'd like to see.

  3. Inventive smaller games – These still come around now and then, but there aren't nearly as many faux-indie games like we enjoyed in previous generations. Where are the weird games like Tokyo Jungle, Pain (hey, I enjoyed it for what it was), Noby Noby, etc.? I know that actual indies have come in to fill a lot of these gaps, but I really miss the weirdness from Sony's smaller developers/partners.

  4. Webstore/online shit – Sony's web presence continues to be a mess, with a webstore that regularly prevents you from using credit cards that worked the day before and sites that are incredibly clunky to navigate. They added a wishlist a couple years ago, but you still can't gift games, and to top it off, you have to manually delete games from the list that you've purchased. Plus, and maybe this is something on my end, I'm pretty sure the mobile version of the store hasn't worked for several weeks now.

  5. PSVR – I haven't tried it, so I can't speak to the actual quality, but it seems like a massive oversight to release a VR system but essentially require relatively ancient Move controllers. I've seen the patents for the new controllers, but they should have launched alongside the initial headset. I do get that they needed to strike a balance between capabilities and affordability, but I think they swung too far in the affordability direction. I also personally don't think there would have been anything wrong with limiting VR to Pro in order to maximize the available power, but that's a personal thing and I know many would disagree.

  6. Backwards compatibility – Yeesh. Obviously PS3 BC on PS4 is a nonstarter, I never expected it, but the PS2 on PS4 initiative has been a joke, and its borderline criminal that we can't play our PS1 and PS2 classics. I won't even ask for the ability to read my old discs; just let me fucking play the games I've purchased from the webstore. The recent PSNow download news is interesting, but I don't see it solving this issue at all.

  7. PS+ – The offerings have improved in recent months, this much is true, but the service is still not what it should be. Cloud saves should not be tied to the subscription service when the competition offers them for free. I'm not sure what you could offer as a subscription incentive beyond better free games, but the service feels barebones.

  8. Studio closures – I'm not a business expert, so I can't say that the various studio closures over the years haven't been warranted, but it's rough as a gaming fan to see so many of their smaller studios get shuttered over less-than-stellar performance, especially for a company that always seemed to pride themselves on the freedoms they gave to their studios. 989, Studio Liverpool, Evolution, Zipper, Incognito, Guerilla Cambridge: RIP. (Yes, I'm aware that not all of these closures have been recent.)

I hesitate to say that Sony is "arrogant," as I never much cared for that term, but I think "complacent" is an accurate characterization. Many will argue that it's natural for a market leader to rest on their laurels, but Sony has been squandering opportunity after opportunity in the last few years to continue to elevate the brand. They should be building off of their massive install base and offering reasons to believe that the PS5 will be a solid evolution of their efforts. Instead, it feels like they're coasting to the end of the generation.
 

Heromanz

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
20,202
I mean the main problem they have if they have no reason. they are going to sell a hundred million + PS fours by the time PS5 comes around. And clearly not in the stuff is it affecting its bottom line.
 

Kuro

Member
Oct 25, 2017
20,660
PSVR is fine PS+ just put out Black OPS 3, Studio closures happen to everyone its just the nature of the business and I fully expect PS5 to have backwards compat with PS4. The only thing I can agree on is the PS Store is fucking awful. Also I don't play features and I don't play multiplayer games on consoles very often and when I do its not like I have a bunch of friends that play on other consoles exclusively so crossplay is pointless to me.

The only major disappointing thing for me with the PS4 at the moment is lack of UHD player and is why I haven't even thought of buying a Pro.
 

Wollan

Mostly Positive
Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,816
Norway but living in France
Regarding number 3: Just get yourself a PSVR. There's 150+ unique & inventive games to play around with.

edit: (why am I enabling this thread)
 
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kennyamr

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
3,587
New York, NY, USA
PSVR is fine PS+ just put out Black OPS 3, Studio closures happen to everyone its just the nature of the business and I fully expect PS5 to have backwards compat with PS4. The only thing I can agree on is the PS Store is fucking awful. Also I don't play features and I don't play multiplayer games on consoles very often and when I do its not like I have a bunch of friends that play on other consoles exclusively so crossplay is pointless to me.
I support this statement.

Also, I use the website version of the PS Store to do everything I need. It is so, so much better than the one on the PS4. Never had a problem with it, thankfully.
 

Deleted member 25108

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 29, 2017
2,877
I don't think anyone can argue against this. It's pretty clear that the PS4 became too successul for it's own good, because there has been a clear change of direction. It feels like the corporate side of Sony took over pretty early this generation and the gamer exec side of Playstation were sidelined.


It's not so much that Sony has become arrogant, but Sony has become very corporate.

Now that is not to say Nintendo or Microsoft are not exactly the same behind closed doors, but you get the impression that decisions are at least being made by people who understand gaming, not people who only look at spreadsheet and graphs.

It's a worrying trend in a industry where things can change on a dime. Sony may find themselves in a losing position next generation because the lack of reinvestment this one.
 

Ascenion

Prophet of Truth - One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,105
Mecklenburg-Strelitz
I believe I said it in the old place, but again, the Xbox One is a superior system to use. It's better at everything but the games. Sony has never been particularly good on the Software/UI side of the console. And PSN is still a mess and more than archaic on the back end.
 

Kuro

Member
Oct 25, 2017
20,660
I believe I said it in the old place, but again, the Xbox One is a superior system to use. It's better at everything but the games. Sony has never been particularly good on the Software/UI side of the console. And PSN is still a mess and more than archaic on the back end.
This is completely ignoring how slow the ui for Xbox One was for at least the first 3 years of its life or the fact that MS fucked up the whole download process while Sony had a smooth system in place from launch. I also still don't get the narrative that LIVE is that much better when its the same shit to me you gotta pay for but still end up with p2p games when that shit is free on PC.
 

Bitch Pudding

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,202
I agree. Sony's hardware and software / service revenue performance in the last couple of years clearly supports that theory.
 

Fisty

Member
Oct 25, 2017
20,227
Good thing games are the only thing that really matters, I guess.

A lot of your points are either so minor I can't even believe you wasted the time to type them out, or just business as usual. BC I guess may be a negative for the 5000 people that still have PS2 discs laying around, but that's about it.

And seriously, your opinion on PSVR is beyond useless since you haven't even tried it. They fucked up and made it so affordable it's the best selling VR headset? The fools!!!
 

Betty

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
17,604
With this generation winding down I'd say it's unlikely we'll see any big changes to the ecosystem regarding crossplay, BC even name changes etc.

Hopefully they're a bit more forward thinking with PS5.
 

JeffGubb

Giant Bomb
Verified
Oct 25, 2017
842
I'm basing this on talking with him for about a half hour last year, and then watching him mingle at Sony's post-event party before E3 this year: I think Shawn Layden knows how to do his job, but I also think he is ... playing up his gamer-facing side. He gets on the ground and talks to fans, he wears video game T-shirts, and he's not so disconnected that he's constantly putting his foot in his mouth.

But he reminds me a bit of Bill Gates talking about how his favorite game is Fuzion Frenzy. He likes the products he works on, but they are just products that he works on. I'm trying to avoid saying he's "not a 100% true gamer!" because I honestly don't think that is the problem. I just think that on the Don Mattrick meter, he scores pretty high. He's more of a Don than a Phil Spencer (not that he's perfect or anything). Layden listens to his internal advisers and doesn't worry about taking the temperature of consumers because they will come to PlayStation; PlayStation doesn't have to go to them.

I think Layden could probably turn all of this around if he felt the pressure, but I think he needs someone around him to make him feel the pressure of where the gaming market is going even when the company is on top.
 
OP
OP
5taquitos

5taquitos

Member
Oct 27, 2017
12,893
OR
BC I guess may be a negative for the 5000 people that still have PS2 discs laying around, but that's about it.
Did you just ignore the part where I specifically said it wasn't about physcial discs? Pretty sure many more than 5000 people have purchased PS1 and PS2 classics on the store...
 

sora87

Member
Oct 27, 2017
6,866
I'm with you on inventive smaller games, but the rest doesn't really effect me and i use my ps4 daily
 

potatohead

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
3,889
Earthbound
They can't pull a new strategy every other year or every year. This doesn't make sense.

Their "underneath side" or corporate or whatever you want to call it is working on PS5. Just because it's not headline news doesn't mean things aren't happening in the background or people are "sleepy"

This is reminiscent of lazy developers, just applied to an even more non-specific entity.
 

Ascenion

Prophet of Truth - One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,105
Mecklenburg-Strelitz
This is completely ignoring how slow the ui for Xbox One was for at least the first 3 years of its life or the fact that MS fucked up the whole download process while Sony had a smooth system in place from launch. I also still don't get the narrative that LIVE is that much better when its the same shit to me you gotta pay for but still end up with p2p games when that shit is free on PC.

I never said live was better. Live is actually worse now than compared to the 360 days. Also what download process? Downloads are faster on the Xbox One in my experience, unless you mean disc installs? They both take the same amount of time, you can just start PS4 games faster. The Xbox One UI I believe was influenced by net speed. I have gigabit internet, it was never slow like some experienced for me. Plus a lot of it's shortcomings were from Changing what the console was a few months before launch.
 

DieH@rd

Member
Oct 26, 2017
10,568
I don't expect platform holders to constantly evolve year after year. Xbox evolved from disastrous launch to consumer-focused gaming company, but they had to do that. They are now [rightfully] trying to exploit every possible attack point on compeititon. Few years ago it was mods in Bethesda games, then emulation, and now crossplay. Sony is in the place of dominance, and they were always clear on their cross-platform approach.

Crossplay – Not much needs to be said here that hasn't been said in countless threads already. Sony used to be the crossplay king, but they have retreated into their walled garden in recent years. I fear that they'll end up on the wrong side of gaming history if this continues.
You are over-reacting. Sony is by far the leader in console crossplay, both with PC and Vita/mobile. They started early with past consoles [even on PS2]. They now have over 75 crossplay titles in their PS4 games library.

Yes, the situation with Epic accounts is weird, but hopefully it will be ironed out eventually.
 

sappyday

The Fallen
Oct 27, 2017
2,798
User Warned: System Wars
Sony is back on their arrogance level, the same level they were at the end of the PS2, but we all saw what happened with their next system. We'll see how Sony handles the PS5 because if it weren't for their first party studios I would have jumped ship to Xbox by now just thanks to how Phil Spencer has changed a lot of it.
 

HotEars

Banned
Nov 4, 2017
207
I may be in the minority (or perhaps the majority?) and none of those complaints that OP brought up bother me, nor did they cross my mind.

My only complaint about the PS4 is that Ghost of Tsushima isn't releasing today.
 

potatohead

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
3,889
Earthbound
You are over-reacting. Sony is by far the leader in console crossplay, both with PC and Vita/mobile. They started early with past consoles [even on PS2]. They now have over 75 crossplay titles in their PS4 games library.

Yes, the situation with Epic accounts is weird, but hopefully it will be ironed out eventually.
People just suffer from most-recentism and react overwhelmingly to headline news more than anything else.

All this complaining about the migrant crisis in America, as bad as it is, and Trump is a total dick.... there's worse shit going on in Yemen for years and the entire world is willfully ignoring it. Millions of people on verge of starvation. But we only hear about a few things that are more popular or superficially more pertinent.
Sony is back on their arrogance level, the same level they were at the end of the PS2, but we all saw what happened with their next system. We'll see how Sony handles the PS5 because if it weren't for their first party studios I would have jumped ship to Xbox by now just thanks to how Phil Spencer has changed a lot of it.
Example of FUD and over reactionary people^
 

mute

▲ Legend ▲
Member
Oct 25, 2017
25,097
They are behaving like someone with the lead they have would be expected to, I guess.
 

Deleted member 30681

user requested account closure
Banned
Nov 4, 2017
3,184
As someone whose been a life long Playstation fan, and s person who only games on Playstation all Sony has as of this point is exclusives. They are lacking on almost every other front, and while I personally understand the situation Sony is in regarding PS3 backwards compatibility, the PS5 will be their only chance to prove that they actually care and want people's libraries to go with them onto next generation.

Some will view this as hyperbole, but frankly the Sony of the PS4 reveal event is all but dead, and we are currently seeing the return of a very arrogant Sony which we haven't seen since late PS2/early PS3.
 

liquidtmd

Avenger
Oct 28, 2017
6,134
I just want PS1 games out of that tbh, which is even crazier - it's money on the table for a function the PS3 has.
 

violent

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,678
Every company that makes gaming devices is trash in their own special way. They are also strong in very particular ways. In the end, put your money on the games. Buy what you enjoy, play what you buy, and leave the politics to someone who has no better use of their time.
 

Bunkles

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
5,663
Crossplay– Not much needs to be said here that hasn't been said in countless threads already. Sony used to be the crossplay king, but they have retreated into their walled garden in recent years. I fear that they'll end up on the wrong side of gaming history if this continues.

I think this is a bit dramatic. Sony crossplays with a ton of systems and no one was complaining about lack of Xbox before. The wrinkle that Sony failed to get ahead of, PR wise, was Switch and Fortnite account lock. Had Sony treated Switch as a mobile platform and not a competitor like Xbox then we wouldn't even be having this conversation.
 

Fisty

Member
Oct 25, 2017
20,227
Did you just ignore the part where I specifically said it wasn't about physcial discs? Pretty sure many more than 5000 people have purchased PS1 and PS2 classics on the store...

Whew glad you zeroed in on the one single thing you could respond to without better explaining your position.

They did plenty of work on those PS2 games, and you don't know what their licensing agreements looked like for those games on PS3. Luckily, there are still 3 Sony systems you can play those PS1 classics on, and all those old PS2 Classics still work on PS3.
 
May 17, 2018
3,454
Definitely agree with 3 and 8.

PS3 had so many weird games that I absolutely adored. But, I also think that speaks to how stagnated indie games have become IMO. Hardly anyone is willing to take big risks these days because it's even harder now to get noticed. No one's willing to make a Tokyo Jungle or a Dyad.
 

VirtuaRacer

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
542
Crossplay – Not much needs to be said here that hasn't been said in countless threads already. Sony used to be the crossplay king, but they have retreated into their walled garden in recent years.

PS4 players can cross-play with PC, Mac, and mobile players remember, so this is not strictly accurate.
PSVR – I haven't tried it, so I can't speak to the actual quality, but it seems like a massive oversight to release a VR system but essentially require relatively ancient Move controllers.

Cost. Sony recognise that console VR needs to be affordable.
PS+ – The offerings have improved in recent months, this much is true, but the service is still not what it should be. Cloud saves should not be tied to the subscription service when the competition offers them for free. I'm not sure what you could offer as a subscription incentive beyond better free games, but the service feels barebones.

The complimentary games improved a lot longer ago than just in "recent months". You can backup your saves localy for free on PS4, if you're not aware. And since you like making comparisons, the competition lock way more features behind their premium subscription than Sony do. Would you like Sony to place all forms of voice communication, free-to-play games, streaming, and Share Factory uploads behind PS Plus so you feel you're getting better value for money? Because that's exactly what "the competition" do.
Studio closures – [...] Yes, I'm aware that not all of these closures have been recent.

Then why mention them, and why not balance your concern by mentioning the studios that Sony have opened in the same timeframe, or the studios they have considerably expanded?

That's some conspicuously bad cherry-picking OP.

Edit: Your post also ignores what Sony have done right this generation. They have the most powerful base hardware (it took an extra year and $100 more for Microsoft to one-up them). Faster disc install times. All 70+ million PS4's are HDR compatible. PS4 has a VR headset! Let that sink in for one moment. I swear if Xbox offered Virtual Reality support this would be touted as another feather in Microsoft's cap and to denounce Sony as being "behind the times". Only on ResetEra do people keep adducing VR as a bad thing. It's most peculiar.

How about praising Sony for getting out ahead with broader and more intuitive streaming/media sharing options, background music, Remote Play, Share Play, custom button mapping; all things that Microsoft took a lot longer to add to the Xbox One UI, in some cases years.

Maybe it's about time we had a thread pointing out what Sony have done right vis-a-vis the competition for a change?
 
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Deleted member 13645

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
6,052
I also still don't get the narrative that LIVE is that much better when its the same shit to me you gotta pay for but still end up with p2p games when that shit is free on PC.

I've spent a lot of time with both consoles. PS4 OS is easier to use and more intuitive, but the Xbox OS/ecosystem has a lot more features. Digital refunds, LFG system, achievement leaderboards, back compat, gamepass, better store (though i find both pretty bad in general), faster downloads for me (that definitely seems to differ per person though). It feels more robust and I feel like I get more worth from my gold subscription than PS+, but it has come with a level of bloat that can be kinda annoying. I kinda like the simplicity of the Playstation OS but it feels almost lonely to me to use with how social and robust the Xbox ecosystem feels.
 

Noctis

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,373
New York City
I don't expect platform holders to constantly evolve year after year. Xbox evolved from disastrous launch to consumer-focused gaming company, but they had to do that. They are now [rightfully] trying to exploit every possible attack point on compeititon. Few years ago it was mods in Bethesda games, then emulation, and now crossplay. Sony is in the place of dominance, and they were always clear on their cross-platform approach.


You are over-reacting. Sony is by far the leader in console crossplay, both with PC and Vita/mobile. They started early with past consoles [even on PS2]. They now have over 75 crossplay titles in their PS4 games library.

Yes, the situation with Epic accounts is weird, but hopefully it will be ironed out eventually.
Gamers are fickle at the end of the day, they just react to whatever recent news and then go on with a "doom and gloom" scenario rant.
 

nib95

Contains No Misinformation on Philly Cheesesteaks
Banned
Oct 28, 2017
18,498
A couple of your complaints seem fair, but many are misplaced. You're also kind of focusing on only the negatives whilst omitting the positive aspects, in things like Share Play, much faster installs, quicker overall UI, Share Factory, PNG/Jpeg captures, streaming, recording, USB media exports, PS Now (with downloads being added soon), improved parties, voice chat, trophies, Pro down-sampling, dynamic themes, PS VR, rest mode, external HDD support, PS Vue, no F2P paywall and so on. A lot of these things are far more important, beneficial and popular among gamers than some of the stuff you've listed like crossplay.

They're still doing inventive smaller and bigger games too with stuff like Concrete Genie, Dreams, The Gardens Between, Wattam and so on.

Also, all your PS VR points are essentially daft and anti-consumer. You want Sony to lock off VR use for only Pro, which would make it unplayable for the vas majority of PlayStation owners, why? To make things even more expensive and limited just for some prettier visuals? Also, you criticise the use of Move controllers, but that is a Pro-consumer decision by Sony to keep things affordable and allow users who already had them to invest without too much further cost. You act as if having a new mandatory PS VR £100+ controller on top of the cost of the unit would actually be a good thing, when it wouldn't.

I'd also argue PS+ has been very good lately. Lastly, whilst they've shuttered a few studios, they've massively expanded, aquiried or created new ones too. Eg ND is now a two team studio, as is Guerilla Games. I believe they're expanding Sony Santa Monica to be the same. Then you've got Kojima Productions, a new as of yet unnamed studio in the works and so on. They've gained more than they've lost.

As per your list, they've got a long way to go on some aspects, especially compared to some of the competition, but it's not like they've not pushed on services in their own way in other aspects.

Side note, can't say I've had issues with the online store. Perhaps it's a regional thing?
 
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Sylmaron

Member
Oct 28, 2017
1,506
Definitely agree with 3 and 8.

PS3 had so many weird games that I absolutely adored. But, I also think that speaks to how stagnated indie games have become IMO. Hardly anyone is willing to take big risks these days because it's even harder now to get noticed. No one's willing to make a Tokyo Jungle or a Dyad.
Thankfully we'll get Dreams and I'm not sure Microsoft or Nintendo would be willing to fund such a game.
 

Meg Cherry

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,279
Seattle, WA
It really feels like Sony is setting itself up for a significant misfire with the PS5. Each step they've taken in the past few years feels like a step away from the system's original pitch - holding players back arbitrarily, rather than providing a platform that gets out of the way for games to be great. If that same sprit is building a new system - it might be an issue.
 

funky

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
8,527
Sony dropping the ball with indies this gen has been a real bummer as the download scene on PS3 was great/

Losing SSM's indie team to Annapurna hit the PS4 pretty hard. They didnt even try and replace it. It just went away.
 

jacks81x

Self-requested ban
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
2,460
NYC
3. Bound, Hohokum, Here They Lie, What Remains of Edith Finch, The Tomorrow Children, etc. Those smaller, "weird" games are out there.

8. Only Evolution and Guerrilla Cambridge are recent. In the same timeframe they've added 3 new studios: Pixelopus, Manchester, and San Diego #2.
 

David

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
1,002
Neo Yokio
I don't expect platform holders to constantly evolve year after year. Xbox evolved from disastrous launch to consumer-focused gaming company, but they had to do that. They are now [rightfully] trying to exploit every possible attack point on compeititon. Few years ago it was mods in Bethesda games, then emulation, and now crossplay. Sony is in the place of dominance, and they were always clear on their cross-platform approach.


You are over-reacting. Sony is by far the leader in console crossplay, both with PC and Vita/mobile. They started early with past consoles [even on PS2]. They now have over 75 crossplay titles in their PS4 games library.

Yes, the situation with Epic accounts is weird, but hopefully it will be ironed out eventually.
This reads as a Sony PR.
 

Rosebud

Two Pieces
Member
Apr 16, 2018
43,597
Hm... nothing of this really affects me and I don't see why should bother others. VR is on the beginning and a lot of people like it, they just founded new studios, Kojima is making the weirdest game of all, PS+ games are great. They should improve their store and put BC on PS5, yeah.

I also play on Nintendo and could make a bigger list of real issues, but it doesn't matter because I love Zelda, Mario, Splatoon. Games are all that matters.
 

Deleted member 30681

user requested account closure
Banned
Nov 4, 2017
3,184
I just want PS1 games out of that tbh, which is even crazier - it's money on the table for a function the PS3 has.
I don't know why they can't at the very least bring back the PS1 classics that were on PS3/PSP/and Vita and make them available on PS4. PS1 games can fucking run on a toaster and it doesn't seem that Sony had any licensing issues when it comes to getting already existing PS1 classics to be playable on their handheld devices.

I'm frankly incredibly disappointed with their PS2 classics stuff, because it started out rather well, but the last major thing to get released was the Jak and Daxter stuff. It's wasted potential for what was a very good idea.