Sony's New Patent for PS5 Could Eliminate Loading Screens Altogether

Ametroid

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Oct 27, 2017
5,510
Jak and Daxter released in 2001 ps2 open world game no loading screens 60fps ahead of its time!
 

Jedi2016

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Oct 27, 2017
1,578
Still trying to figure out how this is different from standard asset streaming that's been in use since the original Playstation...
 
Dec 31, 2017
274

Akinsa

Member
Oct 28, 2017
751
Wirth's Law pretty much makes makes eliminating loading times impossible - software becomes slower (eg. bulkier, more performance heavy) as hardware becomes faster, cancelling out any gains. That was something noted back in 1995 and is still the case today - Photoshop and other programs still take seconds to load, just as they did a decade ago despite the orders of magnitude more faster hard drives and processor speeds we have nowadays, and that will probably still be the case a decade from now.

Super-fast SSDs will probably just mean devs can load even more data then they can before, eventually to the point of necessitating the use of loading screens regardless (or loading animations, as is the case for many modern games).

Also known as Andy and Bill's law - "what Andy giveth, Bill taketh away." With Andy being former Intel CEO Andy Grove, and Bill being Bill Gates.
 

Tora

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Jun 17, 2018
948
Already not a fan of this marketing. 8k graphics lmfao, why did they have to name drop that stupid shit -- 8k Netflix sure.
 

mario_O

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Nov 15, 2017
1,386
If you've only gamed on consoles (like a PS4 Pro with aged tech) and never experienced an SSD, then yes it would be groundbreaking. This stuff has been around for years on PC.
I don't think Sony is using a standard off-the-shelf SSD drive. It's a propietary tech. You don't see big open worlds, like Spiderman, loading under a second on PC. I just bought a NVMe drive, which is 6 times faster than a SSD (sata), but the loading times in games is almost identical. Go figure.
It depends on the game, but on average a big open world game takes 10-12 seconds to load on a SSD and NVMe. Very far from Sony's almost instant times.
 
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Galava

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Oct 27, 2017
1,871
I don't think Sony is using a standard off-the-shelf SSD drive. It's a propietary tech. You don't see big open worlds, like Spiderman, loading under a second on PC. I just bought a NMVe drive, which is 6 times faster than a SSD (sata), but the loading times in games are almost identical. Go figure.
It depends on the game, but on average a big open world game takes 10-12 seconds to load on a SSD and NMVe. Very far from Sony's almost instant times.
Most probably is just some NVMe storage thingy with some optimizations to maybe improve some small things.
 

IIFloodyII

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Oct 26, 2017
9,982
That's what HZD does (and most modern open world games too I'd assume), you shoot a big cone in the direction you are looking, everything outside the view cone isn't fully loaded. I think it's just as much for performance as it is for removing unnecessary load screens.
 

kikiribu

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
3,449
I have no reason to believe this headline. They already showed us what loading on the PS5 is like. But minimal loading will be nice to have in The Witcher 3, those load screens are about 2 years long.
 

Metalmurphy

Banned
Oct 29, 2017
542
Most probably is just some NVMe storage thingy with some optimizations to maybe improve some small things.
Nothing specific so far but it's very likely an NVMe under pcie4. This is all we know do so far:

"Cerny claims that it has a raw bandwidth higher than any SSD available for PCs. That’s not all. “The raw read speed is important,“ Cerny says, “but so are the details of the I/O [input-output] mechanisms and the software stack that we put on top of them. I got a PlayStation 4 Pro and then I put in a SSD that cost as much as the PlayStation 4 Pro—it might be one-third faster." As opposed to 19 times faster for the next-gen console, judging from the fast-travel demo."
 

emag

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Oct 26, 2017
4,908
The article has very little to do with the patent (filed in 2012 as a continuation of a filling from 2001).

Here's the actual patented invention:

1. A method for dynamically loading game software, the method comprising: storing information in memory regarding a plurality of game environments, wherein each environment is associated with one or more next environments; and executing instructions stored in memory, wherein execution of the instructions by a processor: renders a game environment in which a character is located, identifies a plurality of game environments that are next to the rendered game environment based on stored information, wherein each next game environment is associated with a load boundary located in the rendered game environment, wherein the rendered game environment includes a plurality of load boundaries each located at a different distance to a boundary of the rendered game environment; detects when the character crosses one of the plurality of load boundaries in the rendered game environment, identifies which of the plurality of next game environments is associated with the crossed load boundary, and loads instructions corresponding to the identified next game environment associated with the crossed load boundary into a memory, wherein the loading of instructions for the identified next game environment is complete and ready to render when the character reaches the identified next game environment.
This is the standard area/asset streaming that we all are now familiar with. There's nothing new here for 2019 (legally, everything here would have to be from 2012 at best, but it's all from 2001).
 

Metalmurphy

Banned
Oct 29, 2017
542
I have no reason to believe this headline. They already showed us what loading on the PS5 is like. But minimal loading will be nice to have in The Witcher 3, those load screens are about 2 years long.
That's rendering culling, something else entirely, the assets are already loaded and in memory, just not being rendered for performance optimization
 

dgrdsv

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Oct 25, 2017
2,701
Msk / SPb, Russia
I don't think Sony is using a standard off-the-shelf SSD drive. It's a propietary tech. You don't see big open worlds, like Spiderman, loading under a second on PC. I just bought a NMVe drive, which is 6 times faster than a SSD (sata), but the loading times in games is almost identical. Go figure.
It depends on the game, but on average a big open world game takes 10-12 seconds to load on a SSD and NMVe. Very far from Sony's almost instant times.
The tech is limited by physics, no matter how proprietary it is. What certainly can be wholly different is the software layer on top of what is essentially a standard tech. Games which are made for slow HDDs won't show that much user experience change when being ran off even the fastest SSD out there but if you code the game for the capabilities of this SSD and you use it not just as a pure storage media then sure, you may get a lot of things which seems impossible right now.

And the loading isn't really limited by SSD speeds these days so you won't see many benefits from NVMe in loading speeds.
 

Galava

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Oct 27, 2017
1,871
Nothing specific so far but it's very likely an NVMe under pcie4. This is all we know do so far:

"Cerny claims that it has a raw bandwidth higher than any SSD available for PCs. That’s not all. “The raw read speed is important,“ Cerny says, “but so are the details of the I/O [input-output] mechanisms and the software stack that we put on top of them. I got a PlayStation 4 Pro and then I put in a SSD that cost as much as the PlayStation 4 Pro—it might be one-third faster." As opposed to 19 times faster for the next-gen console, judging from the fast-travel demo."
So yeah, they are comparing it to SSD's, which are much slower than NVMe's. Not false advertising, but no new tech either.
 

slamhk

Member
Oct 27, 2017
805
have you seen this?


this is what i'm talking about dude
BTW, that demo isn't only to demonstrate the load times, but also how much faster spiderman could travel. In their Post-mortem GDC video about Spider-man the developer mentioned the world was divided in a grid and a specific amount of adjacent tiles in that grid could be loaded around spider-man's position. Because Spider-man moves so fast they had a specific budget (think of x amount of MB/s per tile) and the speed of how fast you could travel throughout the world was limited by that budget. Now this budget was made by testing how fast you could load in the data from the disk/hdd and process and render that within their target frame time. But it wasn't only that. They also had to do nifty tricks such as duplicating textures across the structure of their game s.t they would have a consistent seek time and that you wouldn't have to wait on the disk, which also increased the game size. (I'm typing this all from memory, so I could have made some mistakes). (gdc_talk), which also resembles what the patent is talking about.

With the advancement of the hardware for the PS5, where the SSD would primarily have an influence on how fast you could load data, I can see how they could possibly eliminate load times, which is an impressive achievement on consoles and maybe even have smaller games (The last part is my own speculation.)
 
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Metalmurphy

Banned
Oct 29, 2017
542
The tech is limited by physics, no matter how proprietary it is. What certainly can be wholly different is the software layer on top of what is essentially a standard tech. Games which are made for slow HDDs won't show that much user experience change when being ran off even the fastest SSD out there but if you code the game for the capabilities of this SSD and you use it not just as a pure storage media then sure, you may get a lot of things which seems impossible right now.
Which you know is going to happen at least on first party titles.
 
Jan 21, 2019
652
Fuck you, I like loading screens.
No sure if this is a joke or sarcasm, because I love loading screens, too. I love them so much that I even wait 5 seconds before turning a page in a book so that I have simulated loading screens while I read. I even changed my laptops SSD with a slow HDD to have more loading times when opening word documents.
 

Galava

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Oct 27, 2017
1,871
SATA-2 -> 3 Gbps transfer rate ---- 300MB/s throughput

PCie-4 -> 15.8 Gbps transfer rate ---- at x4 lanes = 7.8GB/s throughput




Doesn't matter if you put SSD, if it goes throuh SATA it's gonna be slow still. NVMe throuh pcie-4 is where's at.
 
Oct 27, 2017
4,180
Spain
Sounded like you were saying that it didnt even exist. Obviously more games utilizing it would be nice. The same could be said for 3D audio, use of the touchpad, etc.


Perhaps closer to launch of next gen we'll see this updated with Ps5 specific stuff, but right now its the tech war in the leadup to next gen, as Sony and MS try to develop the best box they can without giving away technology (patents) that could give their system an edge in various ways.
Most games could not possibly make it work because if how they operate. In all honesty, it's a massive gimmick. Now we will have to see what happens with this miraculous SSD solution of theirs.
 

dgrdsv

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Oct 25, 2017
2,701
Msk / SPb, Russia
SATA-2 -> 3 Gbps transfer rate ---- 300MB/s throughput

PCie-4 -> 15.8 Gbps transfer rate ---- at x4 lanes = 7.8GB/s throughput




Doesn't matter if you put SSD, if it goes throuh SATA it's gonna be slow still. NVMe throuh pcie-4 is where's at.
In practice though you will see a huge difference between HDD and SATA SSD due to a several orders of magnitude faster random pattern reads and you won't see almost any difference between SATA and NVMe SSDs unless you do the sequential read of dummy data test which is essentially a purely synthetic benchmark which you will only be able to see in real world when copying large amounts of data between two NVMe drives. And random reads on any SSDs aren't really limited by SATA speeds right now.
 

PLASTICA-MAN

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Oct 26, 2017
7,717
You k what? If this happens, I may miss loading screens (not loading times). I mean some loading screens are funny in games, some are funny videos like in spider-Man, some are interactive ones that can click on buttons to modiofy them like in DBZ games or Silent Hill 4 or others, there are even loading screens you collct for some games and are hard to unlock like in Fortnite and some are even animated. What will happen to those if they get elimintaed ?
I mean I saw what happened to Spider-Man and I don't like it at all because it toally eliminated a fun part of the game where loading are long funny videos.
They need to give us an option to eitehr keep them or completely delete them like how they gave us an option to improve PS1 games on PS2 and even running them ffastly which resulted in some winded dialogues like in Silent Hill which made the game unplayable. Some unexpected errors may happen so they don't need to fully eliminate them.
Too good can result in bad.
 

Taffy Lewis

Member
Oct 27, 2017
429
SATA-2 -> 3 Gbps transfer rate ---- 300MB/s throughput

PCie-4 -> 15.8 Gbps transfer rate ---- at x4 lanes = 7.8GB/s throughput




Doesn't matter if you put SSD, if it goes throuh SATA it's gonna be slow still. NVMe throuh pcie-4 is where's at.
There's no way the NAND used in the next Playstation is going to come close to saturating four PCIe 4.0 lanes.
 

melodiousmowl

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Jan 14, 2018
2,030
CT
It says patent continuation in the OP
And TBH,if they did whats in that patent they would have to make a custom SSD (probably soldered to the board), and with PCIe4, you can already hit a max of 7.something GB/s (current drives are are cresting 5) with off the shelf parts.

I mean it may still happen, but they can probably achieve similar results without resorting to making their own silicon.
 

melodiousmowl

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Jan 14, 2018
2,030
CT
SATA-2 -> 3 Gbps transfer rate ---- 300MB/s throughput

PCie-4 -> 15.8 Gbps transfer rate ---- at x4 lanes = 7.8GB/s throughput




Doesn't matter if you put SSD, if it goes throuh SATA it's gonna be slow still. NVMe throuh pcie-4 is where's at.
And to top it off, the current console systems cap a lot of expected IO to the lowest common denominator, which is probably random-reads on a 2.5in HD, and somewhere like 30MB/s right now.
 

PLASTICA-MAN

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Oct 26, 2017
7,717
I still can't understand why couldn't they adopt PCIe 5.0 instead of PCie 4.0. PCIe 5.0 is already here and by the time of the release of the consoles PCIe 6.0 will be nearing release.
 

etta

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,550
wat? you compare a solid state memory in mainstream phones to what cerny achieved in PS5?
Bringing the fastest SSD in the world available with PS5 by a good margin!
Itt, insecure people about their hardware if choice overreact without proper reading.

PS5 isn't just getting your traditional SSD btw.


Actually we do have claims this will be the fastest storage system better than anything in the market.
Lmao the thing isn’t even out yet and people acting like Cerny miraculously delivered some unprecedented tech that has never before existed in the entire universe in a $400 box.