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PlanetSmasher

The Abominable Showman
Member
Oct 25, 2017
115,651
They got to do something with Elidibus... Like they can't pull another Emet-Selch without feeling like they're re-treading but at this moment unless they do something to change him up, then he can't help but feel like a major downgrade.

I still don't quite get Elidibus' angle. In the early chunks of the story he was in he was working for balance so neither side won out. But after he took Zenos' body he seems to just focus solely on destroying life and killing the WoL.

I originally thought that he was a rogue Ascian doing his own thing and trying to stop the Rejoining, but it doesn't seem like that's the case?
 
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Kalentan

Kalentan

Member
Oct 25, 2017
44,656
I still don't quite get Elidibus' angle. In the early chunks of the story he was in he was working for balance so neither side won out. But after he took Zenos' body he seems to just focus solely on destroying life and killing the WoL.

I originally thought that he was a rogue Ascian doing his own thing and trying to stop the Rejoining, but it doesn't seem like that's the case?

That's what I thought too.

Hence the White Cloak.
 

Deleted member 5596

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
7,747
I'm pretty sure that Emet mentioned that when an ascian gets 'killed', they just replace it with his/her reflections from one of the other worlds. The higher rank ones that are unbroken, cannot be replaced but the lower ones can still be around.
 

Doc Kelso

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,157
NYC
That's what I thought too.

Hence the White Cloak.
I believe his role was to make sure that no shards got tipped into "flood" status and that each Rejoining was done properly. Though I also have to wonder if he was also trying to make sure that none of the Rejoinings completely wiped out life on Eorzea, as it seems like that may have it's own issues. Though, yeah, once he possessed Zenos he kinda went off the deep end. Maybe he's just tired of our shit at this point.
 

Boddy

User Requested Ban
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
2,160
Elidibus probably wants us dead because the wol could cause a big imbalance between light and dark on the prime world.
 

skLaFarebear

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,174
Elidibus probably wants us dead because the wol could cause a big imbalance between light and dark on the prime world.

He straight up says he outright wants us dead considering how much we've fucked up his plans. He's created a wildcard in Zenos by exposing the truth of the world to him and it seems like his plan atm is to keep the Warriors of Darkness trapped in the first and have Warriors of Light from other shards come invade and try to kill them. How he plans to do that when even Emet couldn't I have no idea, but I assume that's what a majority of the 5.x content is gonna be based around as well as the WoL being the only one who can confront a Zenos who's thirsting for Zodiark's power.
 
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Kalentan

Kalentan

Member
Oct 25, 2017
44,656
Not probably, he straight up says he outright wants us dead considering how much we've fucked up his plans. He's created a wildcard in Zenos by exposing the truth of the world to him and it seems like his plan atm is to keep the Warriors of Darkness trapped in the first and have Warriors of Light from other shards come invade and try to kill them. How he plans to do that when even Emet couldn't I have no idea, but I assume that's what a majority of the 5.x content is gonna be based around as well as the WoL being the only one who can confront a Zenos who's thirsting for Zodiark's power.

He doesn't plan on keeping the player on the First, he can't, but he's trying to prevent the rest of the Scions from leaving the first.
 

skLaFarebear

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,174
He doesn't plan on keeping the player on the First, he can't, but he's trying to prevent the rest of the Scions from leaving the first.

Yeah you're right. I might have missed a quote in the cutscenes, but I assume at the least Elidibus is already aware that the player can travel back to the Source with no problem.
 
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Kalentan

Kalentan

Member
Oct 25, 2017
44,656
Yeah you're right. I might have missed a quote in the cutscenes, but I assume at the least Elidibus is already aware that the player can travel back to the Source with no problem.

For sure.

I wouldn't be shocked though if the WoL that he seemingly will try and get will go after the Scions, told the selfsame lie that they told Ardbert and Co.

I do wonder how many WoL exist across the remaining shards. IIRC the champions that Exarch summoned were all WoL from the remaining shards (there might be 5 shards left but there can be multiple WoL's on a single shard, obviously). Like technically Elidibus would need to worry about one of those WoL that helped fight Hades, right?
 

Wilsongt

Member
Oct 25, 2017
18,502
This is actually the first expansion story that featured no primals. I wonder if one will show up in future patches or is Eden gonna be a primal.

You could argue that Vaulthy/Innocence acted as a primal.

He essentially "tempered" people and he accumulated a mass of aether eating sin eaters to "summon" Innocence.
 

Sky87

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,863
Loved the expansion, best one so far. I would really like some more backstory on Ran'jit though. He completely overpowers the entire cast of the Scions including the WoL, reminiscent of Zenos in Stormblood. Then towards the end he just unceremoniously gets killed off.
I get that they want big threatening villains, but i'd like some explanations as to how he's able to best the WoL like that. I thought he was a Sin Eater or something, but in the end he was just a man.

It also confused me when G'raha Tia said he was from the future and that changing the future would mean he'd cease existing. He did after all get introduced in the Crystal Tower raid years ago, which means he went to the future after he became the guardian of the tower. I would have liked some more callbacks to the Crystal Tower raid from ARR. Perhaps they didn't want to confuse people who did not do the raid.
 

skLaFarebear

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,174
For sure.

I wouldn't be shocked though if the WoL that he seemingly will try and get will go after the Scions, told the selfsame lie that they told Ardbert and Co.

I do wonder how many WoL exist across the remaining shards. IIRC the champions that Exarch summoned were all WoL from the remaining shards (there might be 5 shards left but there can be multiple WoL's on a single shard, obviously). Like technically Elidibus would need to worry about one of those WoL that helped fight Hades, right?

Yeah I can't see Elidibus using the same empathy approach that Emet used towards the WoD about the ascian history. Ultimately, the ascian cause would destroy their own shards so theoretically none of the WoL would agree to it. Which falls to him manipulating them to fight, which makes more sense and is line with his character, but also idk how he plans on doing that either.
 
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Kalentan

Kalentan

Member
Oct 25, 2017
44,656
It also confused me when G'raha Tia said he was from the future and that changing the future would mean he'd cease existing. He did after all get introduced in the Crystal Tower raid years ago, which means he went to the future after he became the guardian of the tower. I would have liked some more callbacks to the Crystal Tower raid from ARR. Perhaps they didn't want to confuse people who did not do the raid.

Well he didn't go into the future.

There's some alternate timeline out there that he just sat sleeping in the tower for ~200 or so years, not knowing about the 8th Umbral Calamity and then got woke up and told what happened and what they needed to do.

He was under the assumption that by preventing the Calamity, that future timeline would be erased along with him ever going there. But as he found out time doesn't work that way and so there will forever be a future timeline where the world is fucked.
 

Dalik

Member
Nov 1, 2017
3,528
That'd be interesting considering there hasn't been an update, and you'd think people would've figured it out sooner. Can you post the other bosses? I'm curious.
KQOwwlE.jpg
 

Cybit

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,326
Am I the only one who wonders whether Graha being alive means that we didn't actually prevent the 8th Umbral Calamity from happening??
 

Silver-Streak

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,007
So this has been bugging me since I finished the story, yet I couldn't find anyone mentioning it here or in reddit.

Why did the WoL just decide to stop blasting the overabundance of aether into the sky? When you beat Helminster Switch, after absorbing the Warden's aether, you blast it into the sky which causes the light to be forcibly parted, which reveals the night sky. This mimics the title screen. This is also the only time where the WoL doesn't seem to be affected by the Warden's aether.

After Helminster, you just absorb the energy and the sky's corruption just gradually fades. You then start being impacted by the corrupted aether.

So...did the WoL just forget? Did the writers forget? Did our entire corruption problem/soul cracking happen just because the WoL had aether constipation?

What I'm referring to is shown here in this video, starts around 41:45.

 
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Kalentan

Kalentan

Member
Oct 25, 2017
44,656
So this has been bugging me since I finished the story, yet I couldn't find anyone mentioning it here or in reddit.

Why did the WoL just decide to stop blasting the overabundance of aether into the sky? When you beat Helminster Switch, after absorbing the Warden's aether, you blast it into the sky which causes the light to be forcibly parted, which reveals the night sky. This mimics the title screen. This is also the only time where the WoL doesn't seem to be affected by the Warden's aether.

After Helminster, you just absorb the energy and the sky's corruption just gradually fades. You then start being impacted by the corrupted aether.

So...did the WoL just forget? Did the writers forget? Did our entire corruption problem/soul cracking happen just because the WoL had aether constipation?

What I'm referring to is shown here in this video, starts around 41:45.



It is kind of weird but we weren't dispersing the energy from our bodies in that cutscene. Just wielding it.
 

Sibylus

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,728
I wouldn't have tired of seeing that sky-tearing animation play every time, but my hunch is they tried to keep things moving faster after the first time.

Am I the only one who wonders whether Graha being alive means that we didn't actually prevent the 8th Umbral Calamity from happening??
They did, which isn't to say an 8th umbral calamity can't happen in the future with different shards involved. My understanding is that he branched out of the black rose 8th calamity timeline as soon as he traveled to the past in the First.
 

Silver-Streak

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,007
I wouldn't have tired of seeing that sky-tearing animation play every time, but my hunch is they tried to keep things moving faster after the first time.


They did, which isn't to say an 8th umbral calamity can't happen in the future with different shards involved. My understanding is that he branched out of the black rose 8th calamity timeline as soon as he traveled to the past in the First.

I always took it as they thought they were using Back to the Future time travel rules. Turns out they were using Avengers Endgame time travel rules.
 

Sibylus

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,728
I always took it as they thought they were using Back to the Future time travel rules. Turns out they were using Avengers Endgame time travel rules.
I've not seen Endgame, but it makes me think of a weak form of quantum multiverse conceptions of time (many branches, but coherent enough that travelers can cross from one existing branch into another without creating a brand new version of another existing branch).
 

AwShucks

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,951
I'm here! I really loved how the lights on the platform summoned the other players in the last trial. Awesome connection between the cutscenes and the trial itself.

Not that I WANTED anyone important to die, but none of the allies dying seemed a bit too "Everything ends up happy!" It's also interesting to try and figure out the patch stories vs the 6.0 setups in the final cutscenes. I imagine Zenos and Thancred/Ryne stories will be patch stories and Elidibus will be 6.0 the final showdown sort of thing. Also, apparently the WoL is part Ascian?

Is it just me or does Alisaie have a thing for the WoL? Either that or just intense admiration. I loved her trying to wake up Alphinaud at the end.

Overall Il Mheg might be one of my favorite visual areas of the entire game and the Titania design + music + fight + subsequent cutscene with Feo Ul is a stand out memory of the entire expansion for me. And the Dohn Mheg dungeon was so good.

Do I think it was better than Stormblood? Absolutely. Even the solo Duty theme rivals the Stormblood boss theme for me. Though I probably prefer the Shinryu fight over the final Emet-Selch fight. Was it better than Heavensward? That's a tough one. Visually it's close. Obviously drastically different but I love how Heavensward looks. Storyline wise, I probably prefer Heavensward just a bit.

And now (well Tuesday, can't play tonight because of maintenance and life) I'll try out Dancer, do the two post MSQ dungeons, continue to level my RDM.
 

B.K.

Member
Oct 31, 2017
17,030
They did, which isn't to say an 8th umbral calamity can't happen in the future with different shards involved. My understanding is that he branched out of the black rose 8th calamity timeline as soon as he traveled to the past in the First.

It's been a while since I went through the Alexander story, but did it go into any detail about how Alexander's time travel deals with paradoxes? Since the Crystal Tower was sent to the first through a combination of Alexander and Omega's abilities, how Alexander deals with paradoxes might explain how he and the Crystal Tower still exist on the first.
 
Oct 25, 2017
5,459
There are 9-10 ascians left.

7 red masks are left at most. Probably 5, including Elidibus.
Nabriales, Igeyorhm, Lahabrea, and Emet-Selch are all killed in the MSQ.
Mitron and Loghrif were confirmed killed by Ardberts party on the First.
That's 6 of the 13 overlords confirmed dead.
Gaius also has another 2 Overlord masks on his belt that he presumably killed.
Emmerololth, Pashtarot, and Altima haven't been seen since ARR and have done nothing so far, though I presume they're still around. (Edit: Emmerololth is in the Eureka storyline apparently. I haven't done that yet.)
Fandaniel, Halmarut, and Deudalaphon have never even been mentioned, so I suspect they'll be name dropped as ones Gaius killed, just like Mitron and Loghrif.

There could be any number of black masks around though.
 
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Sibylus

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,728
It's been a while since I went through the Alexander story, but did it go into any detail about how Alexander's time travel deals with paradoxes? Since the Crystal Tower was sent to the first through a combination of Alexander and Omega's abilities, how Alexander deals with paradoxes might explain how he and the Crystal Tower still exist on the first.
I don't recall much of Alexander other than it becoming aware of its own destructive tendencies in the hands of men and it deleting itself from time or something. Which does on first blush sound vaguely similar to what the Exarch and the Crystal Tower did, albeit with less destructive finality.
 

PlanetSmasher

The Abominable Showman
Member
Oct 25, 2017
115,651
7 red masks are left at most. Probably 5, including Elidibus.
Nabriales, Igeyorhm, Lahabrea, and Emet-Selch are all killed in the MSQ.
Mitron and Loghrif were confirmed killed by Ardberts party on the First.
That's 6 of the 13 overlords confirmed dead.
Gaius also has another 2 Overlord masks on his belt that he presumably killed.
Emmerololth, Pashtarot, and Altima haven't been seen since ARR and have done nothing so far, though I presume they're still around. (Edit: Emmerololth is in the Eureka storyline apparently. I haven't done that yet.)
Fandaniel, Halmarut, and Deudalaphon have never even been mentioned, so I suspect they'll be name dropped as ones Gaius killed, just like Mitron and Loghrif.

There could be any number of black masks around though.

I imagine we won't see Altima at all, or if we do she'll be revealed to be the force that created Ultima, the High Seraph. It'd be too confusing to have a second villain with essentially the same name.
 

Lord Vatek

Avenger
Jan 18, 2018
21,509
7 red masks are left at most. Probably 5, including Elidibus.
Nabriales, Igeyorhm, Lahabrea, and Emet-Selch are all killed in the MSQ.
Mitron and Loghrif were confirmed killed by Ardberts party on the First.
That's 6 of the 13 overlords confirmed dead.
Gaius also has another 2 Overlord masks on his belt that he presumably killed.
Emmerololth, Pashtarot, and Altima haven't been seen since ARR and have done nothing so far, though I presume they're still around. (Edit: Emmerololth is in the Eureka storyline apparently. I haven't done that yet.)
Fandaniel, Halmarut, and Deudalaphon have never even been mentioned, so I suspect they'll be name dropped as ones Gaius killed, just like Mitron and Loghrif.

There could be any number of black masks around though.
Emmerololth is dead.
 

Saint-14

Banned
Nov 2, 2017
14,477
Do the remaining Ascians that aren't from Amaurote even pose much threat? There is only one of them left and I'm not sure what they can do.
 

Hikari

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
23,689
Elysium
So Eden is the area in the final cutscene of Shadowbringers right? They showed the snowy area in the patch notes. I hope the lore ties into the MSQ and it has something to do with how the scions can't get back.
 

Dalik

Member
Nov 1, 2017
3,528
It's been a while since I went through the Alexander story, but did it go into any detail about how Alexander's time travel deals with paradoxes? Since the Crystal Tower was sent to the first through a combination of Alexander and Omega's abilities, how Alexander deals with paradoxes might explain how he and the Crystal Tower still exist on the first.
Pretty sure Alexander timeline worked on a closed loop
The greatest mystery of Alexander raid was how the primal suddenly appeared years ago to the aura character and how the goblin chief knew everything we would do in advance, turns out we ourselves kinda made Alexander travel back in time to the day the aura witnessed it and the goblin picked up the journal our goblin friend was writing in the present about our deeds so that's how he knew. Another example is how we ended up saving ourselves when in front of a mega ass laser during Alexander prime Battle, we travel back in time to save our past selves.
 
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Kalentan

Kalentan

Member
Oct 25, 2017
44,656
Hey guys in regards to Eden talk. At least for a day or so, please spoiler tag discussion of it. There might be those who are unable to do it today but still wish to discuss the main story of the expansion.

Thanks!

Edit: 7/18, Rules are no longer in place.
 
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thespartin

One Winged Slayer
Avenger
Oct 27, 2017
159
Well he didn't go into the future.

There's some alternate timeline out there that he just sat sleeping in the tower for ~200 or so years, not knowing about the 8th Umbral Calamity and then got woke up and told what happened and what they needed to do.

He was under the assumption that by preventing the Calamity, that future timeline would be erased along with him ever going there. But as he found out time doesn't work that way and so there will forever be a future timeline where the world is fucked.
Is it possible that time travel works like Graha though it would, but he is still around simply because we STILL havent completely averted the 8th calamity? That would give them a few patches of content of us trying to figure out what else needs to be done, plus it could loop back to simply keeping the WoL alive and as long as Zenos is still running around, the bad time line is still in existence.
 

Rellyrell28

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
28,939
So the lady from E2 being the Oracle of darkness is totally gonna turn into Ultimencia in 5.4
right?
 

Sibylus

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,728
Love how much tied-in feeling Eden is to the future story development.

The potentiality for an Oracle of Darkness set against Ryne could suggest that things are indeed poised for an endgame where Hydaelyn and Zodiark aren't pulling any of their punches against each other. It further suggests Ryne isn't bound to the shard, if the Oracle of Darkness can cross the bounds then what's another?

In less MSQ big picture stuff, with other elements to be added and so much of the map to fill in, I wouldn't be surprised if the Empty becomes the site of the next generation of exploration content and the impetus for future trials against "seed" primals (or more public dungeons like Baldesion Arsenal).
 

Kromeo

Member
Oct 27, 2017
17,850
I assume we'll get altered versions of Garuda, Ifrit, Shiva, Ramuh.. Who knows what they'll use for dark element if there;s going to be one
 

Luigi87

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,105
I think that scene was meant to be more symbolic than anything. The Warrior of Light [and Darkness] wasn't
So the lady from E2 being the Oracle of darkness is totally gonna turn into Ultimencia in 5.4
right?
I dunno about that. We already know what she looks like under the armor though, from Nomura's artwork months ago... Assuming that's her
 
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Kalentan

Kalentan

Member
Oct 25, 2017
44,656
Man, I'm stuck at work and I keep jumping to this thread anytime I get a notification and all I see his:

SPOILER

SPOILER

SPOILER

haha.
 

Dreamboum

Member
Oct 28, 2017
22,862
SO um

Seeing the different versions of the OG primal, isn't that a textbook example of creation magic snowballing because WoL misremembered a few things about Lev and Titan?
 

Zomba13

#1 Waluigi Fan! Current Status: Crying
Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,931
But aren't those primals just what the versions in the first look like?

No.


Those are us, the WoL summoning Titan and Leviathan. It's not the firsts version, the first doesn't have a Titan or Leviathan or at least none in that we know of. Those primals were summoned off of our recolections of the fights. Titan is FULL of landslides and bombs because the fight had a lot of knockbacks and bombs, Leviathan has two heads because of the split target mechanic thing (head and tail) and there was knockback/falling off when the rails broke.

If it was the firsts version of them, they'd be summoned by other beasts or people, not us. This is WoL not knowing how to summon/too much ele aether/misremembering.
 
Oct 25, 2017
936
After playing this raid, I fully expect a future raid during the Garlemond Expansion to take place in a kind of "reactor", while we face failed "weapons", themed by FF7 :)