Sports Illustrated features Muslim model in Hijab

Oct 25, 2017
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You can react differently here if you want, religion is religion to me. I view all religions as the same, or at least the Abrahamic ones. The ones that have influenced culture the most. Stuff like that shit Tom Cruise follows I won't even call a religion. That's a cult.

Why don't you want to wear it? Someone earlier said to me it's a way to essentially be closer to God and empower your belief. To me, that would suggest more men would want to try it out too?

What about covering your hair and/or face 24/7 doesn't make you interested? If you want to talk further why do you think hardly any other men don't want to do it?
1) Wait, who said I'm a Muslim?

2) People can wear the same things for different reasons. Now you may wish to take a seat for this because it's a very complex issue. See, one person might wear a pair of jeans because they think they look cool. Meanwhile another person might wear a pair of jeans because they are tough and durable. I know right? It's fucking mind blowing! But wait there's more! Some people buy brand new jeans that are pre-torn because it's fashionable. Meanwhile another person might wear a pair of 5 year old jeans that are torn just because they are comfortable! I know that sounds absolutely insane so we understand that you may need a few hours to digest this information.

3) I don't do it because I don't want to. I haven't sat down and written a 30,000 word thesis on every clothing choice I have ever made in my entire life, nor have I hired yougov or Gallup to conduct extensive polling on the thinking behind every fashion choice made by every man on the planet. I simply lack the resources to pay for such an endeavour and if I'm being honest, even if I did have that kind of money I don't think it would be all that productive or helpful for society.

4) Your reaction to a women exercising her freedom to wear what she wants is to insist that men wear what you want them to wear which is an interesting take to say the least.

5) Go eat a bag of circumcised dicks.
 

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1) Wait, who said I'm a Muslim?

2) People can wear the same things for different reasons. Now you may wish to take a seat for this because it's a very complex issue. See, one person might wear a pair of jeans because they think they look cool. Meanwhile another person might wear a pair of jeans because they are tough and durable. I know right? It's fucking mind blowing! But wait there's more! Some people buy brand new jeans that are pre-torn because it's fashionable. Meanwhile another person might wear a pair of 5 year old jeans that are torn just because they are comfortable! I know that sounds absolutely insane so we understand that you may need a few hours to digest this information.

3) I don't do it because I don't want to. I haven't sat down and written a 30,000 word thesis on every clothing choice I have ever made in my entire life, nor have I hired yougov or Gallup to conduct extensive polling on the thinking behind every fashion choice made by every man on the planet. I simply lack the resources to pay for such an endeavour and if I'm being honest, even if I did have that kind of money I don't think it would be all that productive or helpful for society.

4) Your reaction to a women exercising her freedom to wear what she wants is to insist that men wear what you want them to wear which is an interesting take to say the least.

5) Go eat a bag of dicks.
You're still refusing to elaborate on why you wouldn't want to wear a covering 24/7? Even if you're not religious. What is it about the hijab or other extensive coverings that don't do it for you? If you're non-religious then I'd expect it to be even easier for you to answer why you don't want your head, face or hair covered 24/7.

But as I said to the person earlier with the dress example, yes, we do tend to pick daily from a range of clothing that can sometimes be conservative or sometimes be more revealing. Especially if it's summer. Bikinis, crop tops, vests, etc. In winter you maybe go out looking like you're about to spend a night in the Antartica.

You don't tend to see people wear woolly hats in Summer though, do you? Just as you don't tend to see someone wear a bikini to a job interview. Whether it's the weather or more natural social expectations, people can be pushed into some sort of restricted selection.

I acknowledged this because that is choosing attire for varying situations. Wearing something 24/7 is not like that though. That should be obvious.

You can tell me to eat a bag of dicks, the anger that comes from my fellow men when I challenge them at least lets me know you're having some sort of internal debate with yourself, even if anger and lashing out is the outcome for now. I've had Catholics and Christians call me all sorts of names as well, it goes hand in hand at times with debating against Conservative religious views especially if they're deeply held.
 
Oct 25, 2017
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You can tell me to eat a bag of dicks, the anger that comes from my fellow men when I challenge them at least lets me know you're having some sort of internal debate with yourself, even if anger and lashing out is the outcome for now.
The only internal debate I had is just how harsh my language should be when responding to a bigot that thinks they are clever.
 

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The only internal debate I had is just how harsh my language should be when responding to a bigot that thinks they are clever.
Harsh language won't put me off, so say what you want. I've seen Conservative religious parents disown their own children because they challenged parts of the faith they aren't happy with, so calling me names is nothing on stuff like that.

You yourself know internally why you wouldn't wear the thing you are telling me you won't wear but won't elaborate on. That's the internal dialogue I know happens. People of faith get tested all the time, that's part of having a faith. It's also the only way to productively encourage those of a faith to rethink some of their positions.
 

CyberNeon

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Every human is free to wear what they want , but as a muslim , I always doesnt feel right tying Hijab to the Islam religion and make it a symbol for muslims/Islam and bringing it in the front when people want ( in a good will ) to celebrate Islam , because it is has nothing to do with Islam , and indirectly it empowers forcing muslim women to wear it , It was more of a culture thing due to weather/climate in Islamic-Originated areas rather than a religion thing and it is misrepresented as a religion thing ( whether intentionally by extremist or unintentionally ) , Some non-Muslim areas wears/wore some kind of headwears too due to the environment around them

That said , There are women who wear it by oppression ( either misunderstood as religious thing or by people around her ) and there are women who wear it without any kind of oppression , but personally being a muslim from a muslim Majority country , I think the percentage of oppressed is way higher than the non-oppressed , Most Women werent wearing it here in the 40's/50's/60's , until Wahhabism/extremists started to rise and started forcing it , I also don't want to bring up the awful treatment that any woman would usually get when she takes off the Hijab even from the closest people to her that reaches the beating up levels
 
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Rosenkrantz

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Jan 17, 2018
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You yourself know internally why you wouldn't wear the thing you are telling me you won't wear but won't elaborate on. That's the internal dialogue I know happens.
Mate, hijab isn't among five pillars of Islam, it's heavily advised to wear one, but it's not a deal breaker if you don't. You're conflating socio-cultural issues with religion here.
 

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Mate, hijab isn't among five pillars of Islam, it's heavily advised to wear one, but it's not a deal breaker if you don't. You're conflating socio-cultural issues with religion here.
Because a large part of its existence has been communicated through religious indoctrination and from authority figures representing the religion. The message being pushed women need to be modest for centuries have women looking for ways to uphold that belief.

The Bible doesn't say that much about homosexuality, but one line (like the lines in the Koran about modesty) was extrapolated into a genuine "war" on gay people. Calling them a sin, abhorrent and goodness knows how many years of Evangelicals beating Americans over the head to fear the gay. Get Mike Pence's electric chair out. The Bible has one line about men having sex with men (ironically IIRC it doesn't mention lesbians), so the whole world must oppose LGBT people being happy.

Then you can look at the Pope travelling around whining about condoms and pre-marital sex, meanwhile again the Bible doesn't say much about either.

Men who spread the faith often use their positions of power to sow influence and attempt to say they are delivering the word of God. So followers look to said authority figures as people to trust and believe, and you can get a couple of lines in a religious book made into a massive social-cultural issue.

You basically just said "I don't want to wear it" and seemingly wouldn't tell me why? So I asked you. If you asked me why I wouldn't want to wear one I can list a multitude of reasons? I did earlier on.
 

nib95

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Oct 28, 2017
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You can react differently here if you want, religion is religion to me. I view all religions as the same, or at least the Abrahamic ones. The ones that have influenced culture the most. Stuff like that shit Tom Cruise follows I won't even call a religion. That's a cult.

Why don't you want to wear it? Someone earlier said to me it's a way to essentially be closer to God and empower your belief. To me, that would suggest more men would want to try it out too?

What about covering your hair and/or face 24/7 doesn't make you interested? If you want to talk further why do you think hardly any other men want to do it?

For me to be challenging men around this as being "extreme", even if I am bordering on satirical as I know why you don't want to wear it 24/7, the same reason nearly anyone wouldn't, is what is wrong. Challenging people, especially men, to think about the views they hold in their heads is not an extreme course of action.

It's a necessity when it comes to religion and religious institutes, given the imbalance of power men have enjoyed.
Firstly, it's not 24/7 lol. And the reason more men don't do it is because the veil for men isn't mentioned in the Qur'an, though dressing with loose attire and covering private parts etc is. Many men observe covering their hair with topi's etc anyway because it was recommended by the prophet and because he himself used to do it.

Men are still actually supposed to initiate hijab by being the first to lower their gaze, hence it isn't right for a man to say a women has to wear hijab because otherwise she might grab his attention, because he should not be gawking first and foremost in the first place. Ultimately it is her choice alone.

That said, because of the religious advisory, many Muslim women choose to follow it and wear a hijab, as mentioned to be closer to the religion and have a sense of Islamic identity not just in belief, but dress code. It should be stressed that nobody should be able to be forced to wear it, and neither should a man be forced to dress in loose clothing or whatever either, though of course in some countries these rules are wrongly enforced.

Ultimately, religion does not proscribe to all the more modern views of equality, in the sense that it makes distinctions between men and women due to differences in biological and philological make up etc, and this happens to go through to fashion, nurture and so on too (as it does in much of modern day culture too, hence men and women still largely have different dress codes, toilets etc). In that sense, whilst there is equality in the sense of respect, love, chores, right to work, raise children or whatever, there are some things that are different, eg whilst women may have the hijab, as a random example, men have more fiscal and asset responsibility, eg in marriage, what the husband earns or receives is both of theirs, but what the wife earns or receives is only hers if she so chooses it (a rule that is designed to give women more security and fiscal freedom). Ultimately it's all personal choice as to whether people follow these guidances or not.

Also that imbalance of power by men you speak of hasn't just been enjoyed by religion, it has been enjoyed culturally, economically, socially and politically all over the world and still is to this day. It's probably one of the reasons you yourself, as a white man, find it so easy to tell other women what is or isn't right or proper for them to believe or follow.
 
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Firstly, it's not 24/7 lol. And the reason more men don't do it is because the veil for men isn't mentioned in the Qur'an, though dressing with loose attire and covering private parts etc is. Many men observe covering their hair with topi's etc anyway because it was recommended by the prophet and because he himself used to do it.

Men are still actually supposed to initiate hijab by being the first to lower their gaze, hence it isn't right for a man to say a women has to wear hijab because otherwise she might grab his attention, because he should not be gawking first and foremost in the first place.

That said, because of the religious advisory, many Muslim women choose to follow it and wear a hijab, as mentioned to be closer to the religion and have a sense of Islamic identity not just in belief, but dress code. It should be stressed that nobody should be able to be forced to wear it, and neither should a man be forced to dress in loose clothing or whatever either, though of course in some countries these rules are wrongly enforced.

Ultimately, religion does not proscribe to all the more modern views of equality, in the sense that it makes distinctions between men and women due to differences in biological and philological make up etc, and this happens to go through to fashion, nurture and so on too (as it does in much of modern day culture too, hence men and women still largely have different dress codes, toilets etc). In that sense, whilst there is equality in the sense of respect, love, chores, right to work, raise children or whatever, there are some things that are different, eg whilst women may have the hijab as an example, men have more fiscal and asset responsibility, eg in marriage, what the husband earns or receives is both of theirs, but what the wife earns or receives is only hers if she so chooses it (a rule that is designed to give women more security and fiscal freedom).

Also that imbalance of power by men you speak of hasn't just been enjoyed by religion, it has been enjoyed culturally, economically, socially and politically all over the world and still is to this day. Its probably one of the reasons you yourself, as a white man, find it so easy to tell other women what is or isn't right or proper for them to believe or follow.
It's my understanding a veil is not specifically mentioned for women in the Koran either? Or there is at least some sort of interpretation of modesty instead of the Koran being fully explicit. I'm certain the Koran says women should dress modestly, not "Women should wear a veil". The interpretation of modesty is what men have implied it is, which is often cover your face and hair. And yes, you can take it off at home, but most of current day life is public. Very few people live at home all the time.

But even if I'm not 100% right there, what you're saying is the Koran views men and women differently? That's a core part of my point about the religious texts, a point which modern societies have largely rejected as of those times. Especially if it implies women have to do things men don't, or by nature have more responsibility to suppress over-eager men than those men take control of their own behaviours.

You're correct on your last sentence, but the churches and religious institutes were some of the most severe and powerful implementors of what we could probably say enabled modern day rape culture, the male gaze and issues with men in general. Considering how closely people hold their religious beliefs to their identities, they are some of the hardest things in life to challenge or criticize. And it has largely been men who run the churches, run the mosques and are the "voices of authority" that I spoke about in a post above. What do you think happens when things are a boys or mens club? Need I go off on a tangent about the rampant paedophilia and the covering up of it by the men running the Vatican?

I understand that and have some empathy for people who feel judgement day will come for them and they have to prove they followed their religion of choice "correctly". But that empathy doesn't extend to thinking I should fear challenging people for being called names or it implied I treat any one religion differently from another. I don't. The individual religious person routinely feels it is their religion I am targetting unfairly, but that's because that individual doesn't give a shit if I critique another religion. It's their religion that makes it personal and potentially upsets them. I get that, but that doesn't mean I'm going to be phased by being called names or having accusations thrown at me. That's almost part and parcel of challenging anyone who is religious, hence why blaspheming has been a major issue throughout history. Societies used to kill people for blaspheming and in fact, some still do.
 
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nib95

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It's my understanding a veil is not specifically mentioned for women in the Koran either? Or there is at least some sort of interpretation of modesty instead of the Koran being fully explicit. And yes, you can take it off at home, but most of current day life is public. Very few people live at home all the time.

But even if I'm not 100% right there, what you're saying is the Koran views men and women differently? That's a core part of my point about the religious texts, a point which modern societies have largely rejected as of those times. Especially if it implies women have to do things men don't, or by nature have more responsibility to suppress over-eager men than those men take control of their own behaviours.

You're correct on your last sentence, but the churches and religious institutes were some of the most severe and powerful implementors of what we could probably say enabled modern day rape culture, the male gaze and issues with men in general. Considering how closely people hold their religious beliefs to their identities, they are some of the hardest things in life to challenge or criticize. And it has largely been men who run the churches, run the mosques and are the "voices of authority" that I spoke about in a post above. What do you think happens when things are a boys or mens club? Need I go off on a tangent about the rampant paedophilia and the covering up of it by the men running the Vatican?

I understand that and have some empathy for people who feel judgement day will come for them and they have to prove they followed their religion of choice "correctly". But that empathy doesn't extend to thinking I should fear challenging people for being called names or it implied I treat any one religion differently from another. I don't. The individual religious person routinely feels it is their religion I am targetting unfairly, but that's because that individual doesn't give a shit if I critique another religion. It's their religion that makes it personal and potentially upsets them. I get that, but that doesn't mean I'm going to be phased by being called names or having accusations thrown at me.
It is open to interpretation, but some choose to go ahead and wear it because even if it wasn't necessary, it'd still be more pious due to the advisory, and because it's also a symbol of religious identity which many feel empowered by. The closest things for men I suppose would be dressing in looser clothing and growing out their beards longer. Again, not compulsory, but that many men choose to do anyway just to be closer to their religion.

Ultimately, it isn't really your place to criticise the choices these women make, especially when it doesn't concern, involve or harm you. Sure due to freedom of speech etc you theoretically have the right to, but it only comes off as making you seem like a rude and discriminatory bigot. It would be like me criticising women for wearing heels or whatever else. Yes I could wax lyrical about how heels are a male designed fashion item or construct that in the 1900's were rebranded and pushed by men to further sexualise and commodify women, but who the fuck am I to criticise any women over that choice of hers? Such criticism just comes off as rude and obnoxious.
 

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Nothing I've said in this topic is extreme, that is the issue here. When you view my points as extreme no wonder some people think they cannot debate or challenge religions/religious practice/Conservative views.

Are my views on Christianity and Catholicism extreme? I was "obsessed" with them growing up as that was the two main religious forces thrust on me and the community/country I live in. The moral codes of them, the regressive views pushed by them and the Conservative ideals of them were what I challenged and still do today.
You're all over the place. And you're in a thread about a woman's clothing, literally complaining and ranting about Islam, instead of supporting her. Legit raving. " Oh its a thread about a Muslim woman. Better go in to rant about Islam!" It's just incredible the amount of ranting and whining you are doing about this. Yes, definitely obsessed. I don't even know what the relevance of 75% of what you are spouting is.

Didn't you literally have your thread creation abilities suspended due to constant Islamaphobic threads? The amount of time you have spent raving about Islam puts you in the company of vile racist alt right people. Seems about right.

It just shows how disingenuous you are comparing criticising Christianity to Islam. Like it's the exact something. We don't need anymore boring white people like you, obsessing over and ranting over Islam, thinking they are smart or original. We get it. You are obsessed and biased.

Boring white people who think they are smart obsessing over Muslims while ignoring the explosion of Neo Nazis who spout the exact same things.
 

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It is open to interpretation, but some choose to go ahead and wear it because even if it wasn't necessary, it'd still be more pious due to the advisory, and because it's also a symbol of religious identity, which many feel empowered by. The closest things for men I suppose would be dressing in looser clothing and growing out their beards longer. Again, not compulsory, but that many men choose to do anyway just to be closer to their religion.

Ultimately, it isn't really your place to criticise the choices these women make, especially when it doesn't concern, involve or harm you. Sure due to freedom of speech etc you theoretically have the right to, but it only comes off as making you seem like a rude and discriminatory bigot. It would be like me criticising a women for wearing heels or whatever else. Yes I could wax lyrical about how heels are a male designed fashion item or construct that in the 1900's was pushed by men to further sexualise and commodify women, but who the fuck am I to criticise any women over that choice of hers? Such criticism just comes off as rude and obnoxious.
And that interpretation has historically been stated by men, not necessarily women. Are you really going to suggest the 3 main religions and their institutes haven't been controlled by and ran by men? Is there even any female Imams? I don't think so. Just like the Catholic Church won't allow female priests. Only some Christian denominations have let female pastors be the head of churches.

It is 100% my place to critique religion and religious culture. As it is anyones. Freedom of speech goes hand in hand with freedom of religion. That is necessary to stop blasphemy laws or people stating blasphemy should be punishable/avoided. That has never ended well throughout history.

You're in a thread about a woman's clothing, literally complaining and moaning about Islam, instead of supporting her. It's just incredible the amount of ranting and whining you are doing about this. Yes, definitely obsessed.

Didn't you literally have your thread creation abilities suspended due to constant Islamaphobic threads? The amount of time you have spent raving about Islam puts you in the company of vile racist alt right people. Seems about right.

It just shows how disingenuous you are comparing criticising Christianity to Islam. Like it's the exact something. We don't need anymore boring bigoted white people like you, obsessing over and ranting over Islam. We get it. You are obsessed and biased.

Boring white people who think they are smart obsessing over Muslims while ignoring the explosion of Neo Nazis who spout the exact same things.
No, it was due to a Dark Souls 3 topic. Searching your memory banks for confirmation bias it seems. Someone else like yourself did decide to say I created too many topics about Islam, then ran a mile when I pointed them to more topics created about the Catholic Church and multiple instances of paedophilia/corrupt priests. Funny how that mirrors exactly what I said above, each religious person thinks it's only their religion being spoken about because they ignore the others. You don't care about the others being spoken about because it's only personal if your religion is mentioned.

And how is it disingenuous to compare the Abrahamic religions that all take from similar sources and often say similar things? I know each religious person thinks they have the right religion and the others are wrong, but to live in any society where religions are mixed and it's not a theocracy, all of them will be challenged and criticised.
 

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And that interpretation has historically been stated by men, not necessarily women. Are you really going to suggest the 3 main religions and their institutes haven't been controlled by and ran by men? Is there even any female Imams? I don't think so. Just like the Catholic Church won't allow female priests. Only some Christian denominations have let female pastors be the head of churches.

It is 100% my place to critique religion and religious culture. As it is anyones. Freedom of speech goes hand in hand with freedom of religion. That is necessary to stop blasphemy laws or people stating blasphemy should be punishable/avoided. That has never ended well throughout history.



No, it was due to a Dark Souls 3 topic. Searching your memory banks for confirmation bias it seems.

And how is it disingenuous to compare the Abrahamic religions that all take from similar sources and often say similar things?
Yes, discrimination in the west towards Islam and Christianity is exactly the same. Its the same situation. Stop being wilfully dim to defend your bigoted obsession with Muslims. Every single thread of this sort, here you are, this boring intellectual warrior telling his how bad Islam is, one post after another. It's rather pathetic your obsession.
 

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Yes, discrimination in the west towards Islam and Christianity is exactly the same. Its the same situation. Stop being wilfully dim to defend your bigoted obsession with Muslims. Every single thread of this sort, here you are, this boring intellectual warrior telling his how bad Islam is, one post after another. It's rather pathetic your obsession.
If you go back a hundred years or so, Christians will have been saying they were discriminated against. In fact, just go to America in the last few years. Evangelicals will tell you abortion laws, gay marriage laws and trans rights are oppressing their religious beliefs/rights. Evangelicals routinely think they are being discriminated against.

The difference in the West, largely speaking, is it has been normalized to criticise Christianity/Catholicism because we've had generations of doing so. Not that that doesn't stop some Conservative Christians or Catholics stating they're being discriminated against.

If you're going to start talking about racism or Trumps Muslim ban, then those clear cut cases of genuine discrimination have nothing to do with me challenging religious texts, cultural views and male dominance.
 

Kisaya

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Hey, I think I remember you from the old place. If you don't mind me asking, why did you stop wearing a hijab?
It attracted too much attention from Muslims when they saw me with a boy, at a bar, and other activities that Muslims (especially women) don’t usually engage in. I was constantly judged and shamed by people in the Arab Muslim community when they were able to identify me in those situations, so I just wanted to look less visible.

Honestly, I find this type of mentality selfish. My wife wears a hijab, of her own choosing and volition. It's hard enough for Muslims in Western countries as it is right now with all the intense bigotry, hatred, vilification, ostracisation, racism etc, and this sort of "pandering" as you refer to it, is the only thing that actually improves acceptance and understanding.

She's hyper active as well, does cross country cycling, swimming, charity runs and all the rest, eg things that most bigots would ordinarily regard as examples of "assimilation", so for her, this type of marketing is important, it bridges the gap and let's more people know that actually not all hijabis (especially in Western countries) are these oppressed, house barred victims that people love to champion, and that instead it's a lack of this sort of "pandering" that actually forces more hijabis into hiding or into leading less active lives, in fear of bigotry and racism.
It’s also selfish when hijab wearing Muslims don’t protect and speak out against their community for shaming those who don’t wear the hijab. As someone who was a house barred victim, I had no one from the Muslim community help me when I was suffering from abuse from my parents. To this day I am excommunicated from the Yemeni-American community in New York, and will be referred to as the woman who shamed her family for removing the hijab and leaving home.

So much domestic violence happens because of a piece of cloth. When I start seeing more hijab wearing Muslims advocating for non-hijab wearing women, instead of being condemned for making our choice, then I can celebrate these initiatives with them.
 

BuddyDharma

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Oct 27, 2017
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And that interpretation has historically been stated by men, not necessarily women. Are you really going to suggest the 3 main religions and their institutes haven't been controlled by and ran by men? Is there even any female Imams? I don't think so. Just like the Catholic Church won't allow female priests. Only some Christian denominations have let female pastors be the head of churches.

It is 100% my place to critique religion and religious culture. As it is anyones. Freedom of speech goes hand in hand with freedom of religion. That is necessary to stop blasphemy laws or people stating blasphemy should be punishable/avoided. That has never ended well throughout history.



No, it was due to a Dark Souls 3 topic. Searching your memory banks for confirmation bias it seems. Someone else like yourself did decide to say I created too many topics about Islam, then ran a mile when I pointed them to more topics created about the Catholic Church and multiple instances of paedophilia/corrupt priests. Funny how that mirrors exactly what I said above, each religious person thinks it's only their religion being spoken about because they ignore the others. You don't care about the others being spoken about because it's only personal if your religion is mentioned.

And how is it disingenuous to compare the Abrahamic religions that all take from similar sources and often say similar things? I know each religious person thinks they have the right religion and the others are wrong, but to live in any society where religions are mixed and it's not a theocracy, all of them will be challenged and criticised.
'Cuz under the guise of rational criticism and free thought you're really just attempting to show intellectual and moral superiority. Are you arguing against religious oppression and bigotry? Or ar you arguing to demonstrate your worldview as the only just, ethical, and universal way of thinking, using others' religious oppression to deflect from your own chauvinism?
 
Oct 25, 2017
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It attracted too much attention from Muslims when they saw me with a boy, at a bar, and other activities that Muslims (especially women) don’t usually engage in. I was constantly judged and shamed by people in the Arab Muslim community when they were able to identify me in those situations, so I just wanted to look less visible.



It’s also selfish when hijab wearing Muslims don’t protect and speak out against their community for shaming those who don’t wear the hijab. As someone who was a house barred victim, I had no one from the Muslim community help me when I was suffering from abuse from my parents. To this day I am excommunicated from the Yemeni-American community in New York, and will be referred to as the woman who shamed her family for removing the hijab and leaving home.

So much domestic violence happens because of a piece of cloth. When I start seeing more hijab wearing Muslims advocating for non-hijab wearing women, instead of being condemned for making our choice, then I can celebrate these initiatives with them.
Damn, this is fucked up and depressing.
 

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'Cuz under the guise of rational criticism and free thought you're really just attempting to show intellectual and moral superiority. Are you arguing against religious oppression and bigotry? Or ar you arguing to demonstrate your worldview as the only just, ethical, and universal way of thinking, using others' religious oppression to deflect from your own chauvinism?
It's not my fault if me simply speaking and taking time to try and articulate myself is seen as "intellectual and moral superiority". I'm speaking my mind like those are doing whose replies to me consist of basically just calling me names and telling me to fuck off.

Just because I can restrain myself and not reply "fuck off" back, has nothing to do with intelligence or moral superiority. It's because I've been here, seen it all and collected the badges from debating with Christians and Catholics, some of them in my own family, around very similar Conservative religious talking points. I've been called everything under the sun. It doesn't bother me, so you can add to the list if you want.

I still stand by saying history will continue not to reward Conservatism because timelines repeatedly show less and less people hold onto Conservative ideals when exposed long enough to more humane, idealistic and free ways of living/expressing themselves.
 

nib95

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9,997
And that interpretation has historically been stated by men, not necessarily women. Are you really going to suggest the 3 main religions and their institutes haven't been controlled by and ran by men? Is there even any female Imams? I don't think so. Just like the Catholic Church won't allow female priests. Only some Christian denominations have let female pastors be the head of churches.

It is 100% my place to critique religion and religious culture. As it is anyones. Freedom of speech goes hand in hand with freedom of religion. That is necessary to stop blasphemy laws or people stating blasphemy should be punishable/avoided. That has never ended well throughout history.
As I said, you have the right to, but it just makes you come off as a rude, bigoted fool. There's levels to these things. We all have our thoughts about different things, and some of those thoughts can be negative, insensitive, unhealthy or unkind to bang on about. For example I think Goth clothing looks rather silly (sorry Goth people of Era), but I'm not going to go around criticising or berating people for choosing to wear such clothes for whatever reasons they have. If anything I'd support them because that decision is something that gives them peace, comfort or joy, and it certainly doesn't negatively impact me in any way.

Likewise I wouldn't criticise high heels for the reasons I've stated above (even though I happen to love the look of heels, call me culturally brainwashed).

The reality is that millions of women around the world choose (key word choose, I'm not advocating or defending it being forced on anyone) to wear the hijab for a multitude of reasons, and as much as you may not like that, if you were a decent person you'd accept it, because it is ultimately a harmless decision they've taken that is actually none of your business.

Honestly I've read countless posts from you about Islam, about Muslim women etc, and I feel like you have a lot of growing up to do. This narrow minded, bigoted, superiority complex that you have, it's not healthy, and it's not likely to help you in life either. Try and learn to be more accepting and understanding of different people, and worry about and concentrate on improving yourself before criticising others, who are at the end of the day doing you no harm.
 
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Deleted member 888

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As I said, you have the right to, but it just makes you come off as a rude, bigoted fool. There's levels to these things. We all have our thoughts about different things, and some of those thoughts can be negative, insensitive, unhealthy or unkind to bang on about. For example I think Goth clothing looks rather silly (sorry Goth people of Era), but I'm not going to go around criticising people for choosing to wear such clothes for whatever reasons they have. If anything I'd support them because that decision is something that gives them peace, comfort or joy, and it certainly doesn't negatively impact me in any way.

Likewise I wouldn't criticise high heels for the reasons I've stated above (even though I happen to love the look of heels, call me culturally brainwashed).

The reality is that millions of women around the world choose to wear the hijab for a multitude of reasons, and as much as you may not like that, if you were a decent human being you'd accept it, because it is ultimately a harmless decision they've taken that is actually none of your business.

Honestly I've read countless posts from you about Islam, about Muslim women etc, and I feel like you have a lot of growing up to do. This narrow minded, bigoted, superiority complex that you have, it's not healthy, and it's not likely to help you in life either. Try and learn to be more accepting and understanding of different people, and worry about and concentrate on improving yourself before criticising others who are at the end of the day doing you no wrong.
It really doesn't, because I'm not the one calling people names or telling them to fuck off. I argue passionately, but I do so within reasonable boundaries that would be expected within a religious debate. Or any debate really. You're telling me to grow up, I would politely suggest many men in this topic might need to be more capable of being challenged without crumbling at the first hurdle.

I'm also sorry to say being incredibly challenging of religions and religious tradition/culture and practices has helped me a lot in life. It's enabled me to break free of my own Conservative religious upbringing, and be unafraid in the face of accusations of blasphemy or worse simply because someone who is religious doesn't like the idea that they may get challenged.
 

Food

Alt account
Banned
Mar 20, 2019
67
'Cuz under the guise of rational criticism and free thought you're really just attempting to show intellectual and moral superiority. Are you arguing against religious oppression and bigotry? Or ar you arguing to demonstrate your worldview as the only just, ethical, and universal way of thinking, using others' religious oppression to deflect from your own chauvinism?
Well he's obviously not arguing against religious oppression, He is arguing in favour of it. Obviously we have a crisis of extreme Neo Nazi bigotry in the west. Not only does he ignore this, he is literally following in their footsteps of bigoted obsession over Islam. Mini Tommy Robinson we got over here. So brave.

His response to you tells you everything you need to know. He thinks he is collecting scalps, defeating people and being a badass. Jesus Christ. A boring bigoted Hitchens knock off thinking he is collecting scalps. Hilarious. Just another brave white man, proving his worth on an anonymous message board.
 

Siggy-P

Avenger
Mar 18, 2018
4,519
For the record I wanna apoligise if of my posts in this thread came across as dismissive or antagonistic towards any Muslim women who choose to wear the Hijab.

But of the few or so muslim women I've known (from Uni, work and social groups, etc), they usually take any opportunity they can to avoid wearing the Hijab. Usually any enviroent in which there are no Muslim men around. One mentioned to me that she secretly sometimes goes out drinking if she can even through she's not "supposed to". This is ofcourse anecdotal. But regardless it really drives me to question the belief that there's no social pressure involved in the choices of what they they wear.

Now I don't think anyone here disagreeing with the Hijab is implying, or means to imply, that the woman in the OP should be wearing a bikini or that Muslim women should be wearing less. But rather that it's not necessarily helpful to pretend like the Hijab or Burkha or equivilent is usually worn as a fully autonomous choice.
 

Food

Alt account
Banned
Mar 20, 2019
67
1) Wait, who said I'm a Muslim?

2) People can wear the same things for different reasons. Now you may wish to take a seat for this because it's a very complex issue. See, one person might wear a pair of jeans because they think they look cool. Meanwhile another person might wear a pair of jeans because they are tough and durable. I know right? It's fucking mind blowing! But wait there's more! Some people buy brand new jeans that are pre-torn because it's fashionable. Meanwhile another person might wear a pair of 5 year old jeans that are torn just because they are comfortable! I know that sounds absolutely insane so we understand that you may need a few hours to digest this information.

3) I don't do it because I don't want to. I haven't sat down and written a 30,000 word thesis on every clothing choice I have ever made in my entire life, nor have I hired yougov or Gallup to conduct extensive polling on the thinking behind every fashion choice made by every man on the planet. I simply lack the resources to pay for such an endeavour and if I'm being honest, even if I did have that kind of money I don't think it would be all that productive or helpful for society.

4) Your reaction to a women exercising her freedom to wear what she wants is to insist that men wear what you want them to wear which is an interesting take to say the least.

5) Go eat a bag of circumcised dicks.
Dudes, a bigoted prick. Not sure why the mods here don't ban such people.
 

Deleted member 888

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14,361
Well he's obviously not arguing against religious oppression, He is arguing in favour of it. Obviously we have a crisis of extreme Neo Nazi bigotry in the west. Not only does he ignore this, he is literally following in their footsteps of bigoted obsession over Islam. Mini Tommy Robinson we got over here. So brave.

His response to you tells you everything you need to know. He thinks he is collecting scalps, defeating people and being a badass. Jesus Christ. A boring bigoted Hitchens knock off thinking he is collecting scalps. Hilarious. Just another brave white man, proving his worth on an anonymous message board.
Dudes, a bigoted prick. Not sure why the mods here don't ban such people.
Accuse me of a badass on an internet forum, go for the lowest denominator on a messageboard which is calling someone names whilst ironically publicly calling for mods to ban the person you are calling names?

I think there is some irony in there somewhere.

I'm not afraid to have passionate and heated debates on Resetera within the rules, and I'm not sure why I should be?
 

Food

Alt account
Banned
Mar 20, 2019
67
If you go back a hundred years or so, Christians will have been saying they were discriminated against. In fact, just go to America in the last few years. Evangelicals will tell you abortion laws, gay marriage laws and trans rights are oppressing their religious beliefs/rights. Evangelicals routinely think they are being discriminated against.

The difference in the West, largely speaking, is it has been normalized to criticise Christianity/Catholicism because we've had generations of doing so. Not that that doesn't stop some Conservative Christians or Catholics stating they're being discriminated against.

If you're going to start talking about racism or Trumps Muslim ban, then those clear cut cases of genuine discrimination have nothing to do with me challenging religious texts, cultural views and male dominance.
JFC. Why are we tolerating someone repeating vile racist alt right talking points?

Its damned bizarre that someone who completely downplays the existence of Islamaphobia in western society as if it does not exist at all, is allowed on these message boards.

We literally have a guy here excusing racism, claiming its just something people claim and Islamaphobia is not a big deal at all. This tells you everything you need to know.

Nothing to do with you? LOL. You are ranting and raving about Muslims non stop. Not just in this thread. You contribute to Islamaphobia. Nothing to do with you. Straight up delusional. Taking scalps. LMAO. Those are some sad responses.
 
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Deleted member 888

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JFC. Why are we tolerating someone repeating racist alt right talking points?

Repeated complaining that its okay to criticise Christians, and that even they claim they are oppressed like Muslims. Holy shit. No wonder you are such a bigot.

Nothing to do with you? LOL. You are ranting and raving about Muslims non stop. Not just in this thread. You contribute to Islamaphobia. Nothing to do with you. Don't know what you are more, boring or bigoted.
Can you read the post you are quoting? It's pretty clear what the point being made is. You can see examples of Christians and Catholics stating they are being discriminated against because people challenged some of their views. To an extent, you may have to go further back in time because we have had multiple generations of the "enlightenment movement" enabling more and more Westerners to feel comfortable criticizing the Catholic Church/Christianity. Go back far enough and we had blasphemy laws and were putting gay people in jail.

Leading us to things like the paedophilia scandals being reported on, you know, something the Church was able to hide for many years and people were scared to speak up. It didn't matter how much the Church said they were lies or priests were being persecuted, the truth was dug up and people lay criticism on the Church.

What discrimination are you talking about? No, Trumps Muslim ban or pockets in Europe hating all brown people is not the same as Evangelicals being upset gay marriage passed. All of my points in this topic are about the religions and their cultural views, I've never been talking about the extremities you are somehow suggesting I am comparing between religions?

I can't actually quite tell if you're trolling or something.
 

Parvaati

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
1,866
It attracted too much attention from Muslims when they saw me with a boy, at a bar, and other activities that Muslims (especially women) don’t usually engage in. I was constantly judged and shamed by people in the Arab Muslim community when they were able to identify me in those situations, so I just wanted to look less visible.



It’s also selfish when hijab wearing Muslims don’t protect and speak out against their community for shaming those who don’t wear the hijab. As someone who was a house barred victim, I had no one from the Muslim community help me when I was suffering from abuse from my parents. To this day I am excommunicated from the Yemeni-American community in New York, and will be referred to as the woman who shamed her family for removing the hijab and leaving home.

So much domestic violence happens because of a piece of cloth. When I start seeing more hijab wearing Muslims advocating for non-hijab wearing women, instead of being condemned for making our choice, then I can celebrate these initiatives with them.
Thank you for sharing this. You are a brave person.

I’m glad there is a response like this to challenge nib’s because his is so handwavey and damaging, imo.
 

MilesQ

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,980
'Member when Audioboxer was stanning hard for Neo Nazi and all around cuntbag Count Dankula?

Pepperidge farm remembers.
 

Rosenkrantz

Member
Jan 17, 2018
1,498
Because a large part of its existence has been communicated through religious indoctrination and from authority figures representing the religion.
Um, there're no authority figures in Islam, you have scholars, but 95% of Muslims wouldn't be able to name one (or their madhhab for that matter), and no, imam in a local mosque isn't a relegious authority, just a guy who can recite Quran, read Arabic and has a little training in Muslim theology. There's no equivalent of Pope in Islam (ayatollah is close, but Shias of the forum can explain his role better and with more nuance than me). I don't see a point in conflating socio-cultural and religious issues, just because Saudi royal family uses bogus religious justification to silence their critics, including scholars by the way, doesn't mean that their actions are actually justified by religion.
 

Deleted member 888

User requested account closure
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14,361
'Member when Audioboxer was stanning hard for Neo Nazi and all around cuntbag Count Dankula?

Pepperidge farm remembers.
Completely disingenuous. I didn't like the law being used in the way it was, I have never stated my approval of the person.

Just in the same way as I didn't like the French rapper who was arrested and charged.
 

nib95

Member
Oct 28, 2017
9,997
It attracted too much attention from Muslims when they saw me with a boy, at a bar, and other activities that Muslims (especially women) don’t usually engage in. I was constantly judged and shamed by people in the Arab Muslim community when they were able to identify me in those situations, so I just wanted to look less visible.



It’s also selfish when hijab wearing Muslims don’t protect and speak out against their community for shaming those who don’t wear the hijab. As someone who was a house barred victim, I had no one from the Muslim community help me when I was suffering from abuse from my parents. To this day I am excommunicated from the Yemeni-American community in New York, and will be referred to as the woman who shamed her family for removing the hijab and leaving home.

So much domestic violence happens because of a piece of cloth. When I start seeing more hijab wearing Muslims advocating for non-hijab wearing women, instead of being condemned for making our choice, then I can celebrate these initiatives with them.
I think you made the right decision. The hijab is in some ways a sign of religious piety, so it may have seemed contradictory to some in your community to see you doing some of those things, though of course it isn't their place to judge.

Also I'm very sorry to hear of the issues you faced. I agree with you that more Muslim women (and men) should support those who choose to stop wearing it, but as with life in general, too many people these days are sad, judgemental and petty, and feel the need to put others down in order to make themselves feel better or more superior. It's a sad and sorry thing. Just take solace in knowing that those people probably have their own set of issues they're dealing with, hence they are the way they are.

Ironically in my family it was the polar opposite. My parents would actually pressure my sisters to stop wearing the hijab, because they felt that post 9/11 it made them too much of a target for bigotry, racism and even potential hate crimes.

On your last note, your support of those who choose to wear the hijab should ideally not be on the condition that more people support those who choose not to wear one. One wrong doesn't justify another, and just because others did not support you in your decision to stop wearing the hijab, it doesn't mean you should stop supporting those who make a decision to start wearing one. That only lends to a cycle of a lack of support that ultimately leads to more pain, loss or suffering for more people. The more moral support for either decision among said communities, the better.
 
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Food

Alt account
Banned
Mar 20, 2019
67
Can you read the post you are quoting? It's pretty clear what the point being made is. You can see examples of Christians and Catholics stating they are being discriminated against because people challenged some of their views. To an extent, you may have to go further back in time because we have had multiple generations of the "enlightenment movement" enabling more and more Westerners to feel comfortable criticizing the Catholic Church/Christianity. Go back far enough and we had blasphemy laws and were putting gay people in jail.

Leading us to things like the paedophilia scandals being reported on, you know, something the Church was able to hide for many years and people were scared to speak up. It didn't matter how much the Church said they were lies or priests were being persecuted, the truth was dug up and people lay criticism on the Church.

What discrimination are you talking about? No, Trumps Muslim ban or pockets in Europe hating all brown people is not the same as Evangelicals being upset gay marriage passed. All of my points in this topic are about the religions and their cultural views, I've never been talking about the extremities you are somehow suggesting I am comparing between religions?

I can't actually quite tell if you're trolling or something.
What are you talking about? I don't know what relevance this has.

If you go back a hundred years or so, Christians will have been saying they were discriminated against. In fact, just go to America in the last few years. Evangelicals will tell you abortion laws, gay marriage laws and trans rights are oppressing their religious beliefs/rights. Evangelicals routinely think they are being discriminated against.

The difference in the West, largely speaking, is it has been normalized to criticise Christianity/Catholicism because we've had generations of doing so. Not that that doesn't stop some Conservative Christians or Catholics stating they're being discriminated against.

If you're going to start talking about racism or Trumps Muslim ban, then those clear cut cases of genuine discrimination have nothing to do with me challenging religious texts, cultural views and male dominance.
This post is just disgusting. Completely downplaying the existence of Islamaphobia in western society. Thats some hardcore alt right ideology here. " The Christians are oppressed too! Muslims aren't really." Fucking insane. It really just tells me everything I need to know. Also going back 100 hundred years? Wtf. Its not 100 years ago. Carry on ranting about Islam, young Dawkins. Passionate badass collecting scalps. LOL. The way you see your self is so sad.
 

Deleted member 888

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14,361
Um, there're no authority figures in Islam, you have scholars, but 95% of Muslims wouldn't be able to name one (or their madhhab for that matter), and no, imam in a local mosque isn't a relegious authority, just a guy who can recite Quran, read Arabic and has a little training in Muslim theology. There's no equivalent of Pope in Islam (ayatollah is close, but Shias of the forum can explain his role better and with more nuance than me). I don't see a point in conflating socio-cultural and religious issues, just because Saudi royal family uses bogus religious justification to silence their critics, including scholars by the way, doesn't mean that their actions are actually justified by religion.
I know there is no figure like the Pope, but Imams are routinely the speakers that followers look up to. I would say that is somewhat an authority figure. Just in the same way I think a Priest is an authority figure.

Those figures influence socio-cultural views and actions. That's the basis of how one Church could end up being known as an anti-gay Church whereas another has a Priest who is more progressive.

If you have a lot of individual Churches or Mosques saying something, then that is how the micro becomes the macro. That IS socio-cultural because the Church, or the Mosque, or the Priest/Imam handle morality and how to live life.

Religion is often seen as the all-encompassing code for how to live life, I think you could at least agree with me on that point. But that itself contradicts the fact that in socio-cultural development other sources will challenge and encroach on religion wanting to be the one-stop shop. Whether it is biology, psychology, sociology or general trends and discoveries in the scientific fields.

What are you talking about? I don't know what relevance this has.



This post is just disgusting. Completely downplaying the existence of Islamaphobia is western society. Fucking insane. It really just tells me everything I need to know. Carry on ranting about Islam, young Dawkins. Passionate badass collecting scalps. LOL. The way you see your self is so sad.
What on earth are you talking about? Islamophobia exists in Western society. Fearing or abusing people of another race or religion on irrational grounding is unacceptable and exists.

Challenging religious views or culture is not irrational unless you make it so.
 
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Siggy-P

Avenger
Mar 18, 2018
4,519
JFC. Why are we tolerating someone repeating vile racist alt right talking points?

Its damned bizarre that someone who completely downplays the existence of Islamaphobia in western society as if it does not exist at all, is allowed on these message boards.

We literally have a guy here excusing racism, claiming its just something people claim and Islamaphobia is not a big deal at all. This tells you everything you need to know.

Nothing to do with you? LOL. You are ranting and raving about Muslims non stop. Not just in this thread. You contribute to Islamaphobia. Nothing to do with you. Straight up delusional. Taking scalps. LMAO. Those are some sad responses.
He is not excusing racism. Obviously there's some inter-poster history relating other threads in the past that I ain't getting into, but it's pretty clear cut in this thread that he is differentiating between Muslims as people and certain aspects of Muslim communities customs.

You can tell him he's wrong if you think so but repeatedly posting he's an anti-islamic bigot is obviously a attempt to get the mods to ban him. And that would be an interesting turn of events when the only Muslim woman in this thread seems to say she doesn't wear the Hijab.



Edit:
I edited the above slightly after re-reading it as I realised I was dragging another poster into it in a manner I shouldn't have and they probbaly don't want. Audioboxer should maybe tone down the "religion is BS" aspect but at the same time most posters in this thread apparently aren't Muslim women and arguing for the rights of hypothetical Muslim women who wear the Hijab without any social pressure should never take precedence over the rights of real Muslim women who are ostracised for choosing not to wear one.
 
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Kisaya

Member
Oct 25, 2017
637
Brooklyn ⇾ Chicago
I think you made the right decision. Also I'm very sorry to hear of the issues you faced. I agree with you that more Muslim women (and men) should support those who choose to stop wearing it, but as with life in general, too many people these days are sad, judgemental and petty, and feel the need to put others down in order to make themselves feel better or more superior. It's a sad and sorry thing. Just take solace in knowing that those people probably have their own set of issues they're dealing with, hence they are the way they are.

Ironically in my family it was the polar opposite. My parents would actually pressure my sisters to stop wearing the hijab, because they felt that post 9/11 it made them too much of a target for bigotry, racism and even potential hate crimes.

On your last note, your support of those who choose to wear the hijab should ideally not be on the condition that more people support those who choose not to wear one. One wrong doesn't justify another, and just because others did not support you in your decision to stop wearing the hijab, it doesn't mean you should stop supporting those who make a decision to start wearing one. That only lends to a cycle of a lack of support that ultimately lends to more pain, loss or suffering for more people. The more moral support for either decision among committees, the better.
To clarify, I support women who make the choice of wearing the hijab. But as Rare Opiums said, wearing hijab is not considered a form of oppression in many communities, and way too often hijab-wearing Muslims are glorified while those who don't often have to deal with isolation and abuse. People focus way too much on the hijab, modesty (which btw I hate using this term, as if non-hijab wearing Muslims are not modest), and a woman's dress more than the bigger issues our community faces like rape, domestic violence, wars, famine.
 

Deleted member 888

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14,361
He is not excusing racism. Obviously there's some inter-poster history relating other threads in the past that I ain't getting into, but it's pretty clear cut in this thread that he is differentiating between Muslims as people and certain aspects of Muslim communities customs.

You can tell him he's wrong if you think so but repeatedly posting he's an anti-islamic bigot is obviously a attempt to get the mods to ban him. And that would be an interesting turn of events when the only Muslim woman in this thread seems to say she doesn't wear the Hijab for reasons that aren't too far off what Audioboxer is describing.
It's frustrating because it's as if some of the posters replying to me actually think I like Tommy Robinson or even Markus Meechan. I don't. They're all wasters. But conflating the worst examples of people talking about Islam with every single person who dares talk about Islam is some incredibly dishonest debating. It's a tactic which aims to cord off the ability for normal, decent and moral people to object to and/or challenge things they see within a religion or around religious culture. If you scare people enough into thinking they'll get called Tommy Robinson, they'll soon keep their mouths shut. That's a separate issue from actual racism and/or bigotry. But all throughout history religious people have tried to find ways to outright have blasphemy laws, if not imply anyone blaspheming in their eyes get tarred and feathered.

The individual is always an individual. I take every person on the merits of their overall package, personality and beliefs. Whatever religion they are. I've never advocated for the removal or destruction of religion, I'm not an anti-theist. I think there are a lot of positives with all the major religions, but a lot to talk about too. I simply think speech is always the best challenge to ideas, and history proves that. Wars and crusades fought around religion did not work, it just resulted in dead and/or jailed people. If talking fails then democracy has ultimately failed.

I'm very consistent and I think that is something that people get confused around. You're only supposed to be consistent if it means only ever having one target or one talking point. Stay away from controversial engagement or else. I don't work like that, nor does my brain. I can simultaneously talk about section 127 in the UK, as well as whatever the section is in France, without that meaning I think Markus Meechan is a sound guy. He's not. He's a sad case of right-wing radicalization on the internet (a growing problem indeed), irrespective of his claims he was once a communist. He joined UKIP. He thinks he's a martyr when at most in my eyes he's simply one of the same cases as a few others where we need to examine when section 127 is used.

Many criminals and thugs are outright scum, but that doesn't mean every law society has, has to be approved of or remain unchallenged if it can be used against bad people. That's just Miles bringing up unrelated baggage to try and poison the well in here. Posters who don't like me and instead try to pressure moderation to ban me whilst ironically being the ones throwing around name-calling or whatever.

As if me all throughout my life debating religious doctrine and beliefs is anywhere near as detrimental, bigoted or even as violent as thugs like Robinson or radicalizers like Meechan and the rest of right-wing shitposting online.
 

Canucked

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,830
I'm shocked the Swimsuit Issue still exists.

It was a product of the super-model era, when everyone knew the models more than brands.
It was pre #me too
Print media is fading.
Women in sports are gaining more respect.

I am all for whoever wanting to be in it wearing whatever they want. If the Swimsuit Issue still exists in ten years I'll be shocked.
 

nu_faust

Member
Oct 27, 2017
103
Philly <=> İstanbul
just dropping some facts to give ppl some perspective

for the majority of women born in Islamic societies (you know where %99 of worlds Muslim populations actually live in), you are expected/advised/forced to wear the hijab, you don't have the luxury of choosing not to wear it.

the repercussions of not wearing include being ashamed, being cast out by your community, being beaten, being jailed.

the only places where Muslim born women have right choose not to wear the hijab, are either in the west or in secularized countries (Turkey, Azerbaijan, Bosnia, etc)

this lady like a lot of muslim women living in the west made hijab part of her religious & cultural identity and want to express herself this way, all the power to her. yet this doesn't change the fact that hijab is a symbol of oppression and a tool for patriarchal control for hundreds of millions of women in Islamic societies.
 

DIE BART DIE

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,563
It attracted too much attention from Muslims when they saw me with a boy, at a bar, and other activities that Muslims (especially women) don’t usually engage in. I was constantly judged and shamed by people in the Arab Muslim community when they were able to identify me in those situations, so I just wanted to look less visible.



It’s also selfish when hijab wearing Muslims don’t protect and speak out against their community for shaming those who don’t wear the hijab. As someone who was a house barred victim, I had no one from the Muslim community help me when I was suffering from abuse from my parents. To this day I am excommunicated from the Yemeni-American community in New York, and will be referred to as the woman who shamed her family for removing the hijab and leaving home.

So much domestic violence happens because of a piece of cloth. When I start seeing more hijab wearing Muslims advocating for non-hijab wearing women, instead of being condemned for making our choice, then I can celebrate these initiatives with them.
I'm sorry for all the bullshit you've had to go through. People like you are the definition of brave. I hope you have good people in your life now.
 

Discontent

Member
May 25, 2018
98
User Banned (1 Week): Condescending and sexist rhetoric
just dropping some facts to give ppl some perspective

for the majority of women born in Islamic societies (you know where %99 of worlds Muslim populations actually live in), you are expected/advised/forced to wear the hijab, you don't have the luxury of choosing not to wear it.

the repercussions of not wearing include being ashamed, being cast out by your community, being beaten, being jailed.

the only places where Muslim born women have right choose not to wear the hijab, are either in the west or in secularized countries (Turkey, Azerbaijan, Bosnia, etc)

this lady like a lot of muslim women living in the west made hijab part of her religious & cultural identity and want to express herself this way, all the power to her. yet this doesn't change the fact that hijab is a symbol of oppression and a tool for patriarchal control for hundreds of millions of women in Islamic societies.
Sir/madam, desist lol. Women of 99% of the world's Muslim population not being able to choose not to wear it might be a tad exaggerated don't you think? You contradict yourself by excluding the secularised countries which account for a sizeable portion of the Muslim world. I'm from Pakistan (200 m population) and can tell you from first hand experience and can prove it too if you like that in the vast majority of places women are not forced to wear the hijab and women without hijab can be seen in pretty much all major cities. Being expected/advised is far removed from being forced to do something and I don't see how it can be seen as oppression. India has a Muslim population of roughly 180 million. It's not a Muslim country anymore but you did clearly refer to 99% of the Muslim population of the world.

Hijab is optional in Indonesia, the worlds largest Muslim population (203m). As a side note, for those that think Islam was spread by the sword, no Muslim army ever went to Indonesia, the place where most Muslims are. Turkey has 80 million population. Syria, Egypt, Morocco, Dubai...and there's probably other examples. We should make sure to consult sheikh google before we generalise 99% of a quarter of the world's population.

To be clear, I am not in support of when Muslim women don't wear hijab. I'm just calling you out on this false info. According to the religion they are sinful and there's no two ways about it, but they are our beloved sisters and by no means are they outside the fold of Islam.They should be told in no uncertain terms that they're doing wrong and encouraged with love and compassion to wear the hijab. At the time of the early Muslims there were women that weren't wearing hijab in public and they weren't punished or forced to wear it.
 

Mr-Joker

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
5,822
Why is it soo touchy for you to discuss with me your own modesty dressing as a man? What hits a nerve when I discuss that with you? It's clothing, it shouldn't be that hard for you to discuss with me and let me know if you yourself would wear clothing that covers your head and/or hair 24/7 and if not, why not?



Zvonimir Boban is not obligated to debate you when it's clear that you have an anti religion agenda.
 

nib95

Member
Oct 28, 2017
9,997
just dropping some facts to give ppl some perspective

for the majority of women born in Islamic societies (you know where %99 of worlds Muslim populations actually live in), you are expected/advised/forced to wear the hijab, you don't have the luxury of choosing not to wear it.

the repercussions of not wearing include being ashamed, being cast out by your community, being beaten, being jailed.

the only places where Muslim born women have right choose not to wear the hijab, are either in the west or in secularized countries (Turkey, Azerbaijan, Bosnia, etc)

this lady like a lot of muslim women living in the west made hijab part of her religious & cultural identity and want to express herself this way, all the power to her. yet this doesn't change the fact that hijab is a symbol of oppression and a tool for patriarchal control for hundreds of millions of women in Islamic societies.
Please don't talk out of pure ignorance or in exaggerated terms. The Muslim world isn't just Saudi Arabia, Iran or the Emirates you know, and if you stepped out of your propaganda based bubble and actually visited many Muslim countries, you'd realise huge portions of the female population in said countries don't wear the hijab at all.

Some of the countries with the largest Muslim populations in the world are actually liberal on wearing of the hijab. For example, in Bangladesh where my family originate from, a country with a Muslim population greater than Saudi Arabia, the Arab Emirates and Iran combined, and in which there have been several successive female prime ministers, the majority of females in the country do not wear a hijab, instead the hindu style of covering whilst still showing hair is more common than even the Islamic version of hijab. Hell, even anecdotally, when I visit Dhaka (something I do fairly often for business reasons) I see considerably more women not wearing the hijab than I do wearing it. It is a similar thing in Pakistan, which has an even bigger population. There was actually a high profile case in Pakistan recently where a Pakistani tech firm fired a female employee for choosing to wear the hijab, stating that it spoiled the company image. Naturally that didn't go down well.

Likewise in Indonesia, the country with the largest Muslim population in the world, close to half the population of female Muslims in the country do not wear a hijab. Hell, up until 2015 female police officers were banned from wearing the hijab in Indonesia, and in certain jobs it still is. Then you have other Muslim countries like Lebanon where only 17% of the female population wear hijab and so on.

That isn't to say that the hijab isn't overwhelmingly prevelant in many Islamic countries, or in cases even enforced (rare), but your summary and implication here just comes off as dishonest and grossly hyperbolic.

Also, there is a massive difference between being advised to wear something, and being forced to. It seems extremely disingenuous to try and conflate the two together as if they somehow encompass a similar thing.
 
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Siggy-P

Avenger
Mar 18, 2018
4,519
To be clear, I am not in support of when Muslim women don't wear hijab. I'm just calling you out on this false info. According to the religion they are sinful and there's no two ways about it, but they are our beloved sisters and by no means are they outside the fold of Islam.They should be told in no uncertain terms that they're doing wrong and encouraged with love and compassion to wear the hijab. At the time of the early Muslims there were women that weren't wearing hijab in public and they weren't punished or forced to wear it.
Wow.

Be real interesting if the people attacking Audioboxer say nothing about this post.
 

Mr-Joker

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
5,822
To be clear, I am not in support of when Muslim women don't wear hijab. I'm just calling you out on this false info. According to the religion they are sinful and there's no two ways about it, but they are our beloved sisters and by no means are they outside the fold of Islam.They should be told in no uncertain terms that they're doing wrong and encouraged with love and compassion to wear the hijab. At the time of the early Muslims there were women that weren't wearing hijab in public and they weren't punished or forced to wear it.
Hi fellow ex-Muslim here and what you just said is 100% fucking bullshit.

The Qu'ran says nothing about the hijab and just states that both men and woman to dress modestly, also how dare you try and shame women who chooses not to wear the hijab.

It's their fucking choice and wearing one does not make one a better Muslim than those who chooses not to wear one. Furthermore anyone forcing women to wear one or not is not a real Muslim.

Only God can judge them.

You are the reason why Muslims around the world are given a negative image because of your sexist and backward mindset.
 

Discontent

Member
May 25, 2018
98
Hi fellow ex-Muslim here and what you just said is 100% fucking bullshit.

The Qu'ran says nothing about the hijab and just states that both men and woman to dress modestly, also how dare you try and shame women who chooses not to wear the hijab.

It's their fucking choice and wearing one does not make one a better Muslim than those who chooses not to wear one. Furthermore anyone forcing women to wear one or not is not a real Muslim.

Only God can judge them.

You are the reason why Muslims around the world are given a negative image because of your sexist and backward mindset.
In no part of my post did I say women should be forced to wear it I quite clearly said they should be encouraged with love and compassion to wear it. If someone said to you 'dear brother/sister please don't drink alcohol, this is wrong' would that person be forcing you to not drink alcohol? That's why I said I don't support when women don't wear hijab just like I don't support when someone doesn't stop drinking alcohol. Maybe advocate is the better word to use.

I wholeheartedly agree with you someone that wears the hijab is not by default a better Muslim than the one who doesn't wear it. Doesn't mean that there's anything wrong with advocating it's usage. I never said to shame the women that don't wear it. Encouraging with love and compassion is a thing lol This sums it up quite well, https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=A3cxqvgWADY