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Discontent

Member
May 25, 2018
4,232
Hi fellow ex-Muslim here and what you just said is 100% fucking bullshit.

The Qu'ran says nothing about the hijab and just states that both men and woman to dress modestly, also how dare you try and shame women who chooses not to wear the hijab.

It's their fucking choice and wearing one does not make one a better Muslim than those who chooses not to wear one. Furthermore anyone forcing women to wear one or not is not a real Muslim.

Only God can judge them.

You are the reason why Muslims around the world are given a negative image because of your sexist and backward mindset.

In no part of my post did I say women should be forced to wear it I quite clearly said they should be encouraged with love and compassion to wear it. If someone said to you 'dear brother/sister please don't drink alcohol, this is wrong' would that person be forcing you to not drink alcohol? That's why I said I don't support when women don't wear hijab just like I don't support when someone doesn't stop drinking alcohol. Maybe advocate is the better word to use.

I wholeheartedly agree with you someone that wears the hijab is not by default a better Muslim than the one who doesn't wear it. Doesn't mean that there's anything wrong with advocating it's usage. I never said to shame the women that don't wear it. Encouraging with love and compassion is a thing lol This sums it up quite well, https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=A3cxqvgWADY
 

Alice

Banned
Nov 2, 2017
5,867
"Women have a choice to wear it, but if they don't they're sinners"

The fuck am I even reading here?
 

Siggy-P

Avenger
Mar 18, 2018
11,865
"Women have a choice to wear it, but if they don't they're sinners"

The fuck am I even reading here?


Remember, saying religion isn't real is bad. But saying women should be pressured into wearing the Hijab is A-Okay apparently.

We've got to the point here were posters are defending hypothetical Muslims that wear the Hijab out of 100% choice with no outside pressure (something that obviously doesn't exist) yet letting this shit fly.
 

Siggy-P

Avenger
Mar 18, 2018
11,865
Oh look, another smug more-enlightened-than-thou westerner who knows everything about Muslim women without ever talking to any of them.

Yeah, I'm sure social pressure is not a thing that exists at all. I'm sure some Muslim women have never experienced any pressure at all...

Especially when I do know Muslim women, and it is a real thing they face. We have an actual Muslim woman in this thread saying it was real and the only people saying it aren't are Muslim men.

Your profile says you're not a woman either, so the fuck are you talking about?
 

Yunsar

Member
Oct 27, 2017
423
Yeah, I'm sure social pressure is not a thing that exists at all. I'm sure some Muslim women have never experienced any pressure at all...

Especially when I do know Muslim women, and it is a real thing they face. We have an actual Muslim woman in this thread saying it was real and the only people saying it aren't are Muslim men.

Your profile says you're not a woman either, so the fuck are you talking about?

I'm not saying social pressure doesn't exist, I'm just saying that there are actual Muslim women who willingly chooses to wear Hijab by their own volition. I live in Indonesia, the country with the largest population of Muslims in the world, and those kinds of women are an actual part of my daily life. You're the one who's generalizing Muslim women as a whole by literally saying the aforementioned group "obviously doesn't exist ."
 

Siggy-P

Avenger
Mar 18, 2018
11,865
I'm not saying social pressure doesn't exist, I'm just saying that there are actual Muslim women who willingly chooses to wear Hijab by their own volition. I live in Indonesia, the country with the largest population of Muslims in the world, and those kinds of women are an actual part of my daily life. You're the one who's generalizing Muslim women as a whole by literally saying the aforementioned group "obviously doesn't exist ."

And I'm willing to bet those women are subject to the "it's a choice but they should be told under no mistake they should wear it and they're wrong if they don't." BS the poster at the bottom of last page was going on about.

But I'm gonna stop posting in this thread now as it's blindingly obvious what posters actually support and what they truly genuinely don't give a shit about.
 

John Caboose

Member
Oct 26, 2017
2,199
Sweden
Every human is free to wear what they want , but as a muslim , I always doesnt feel right tying Hijab to the Islam religion and make it a symbol for muslims/Islam and bringing it in the front when people want ( in a good will ) to celebrate Islam , because it is has nothing to do with Islam , and indirectly it empowers forcing muslim women to wear it , It was more of a culture thing due to weather/climate in Islamic-Originated areas rather than a religion thing and it is misrepresented as a religion thing ( whether intentionally by extremist or unintentionally ) , Some non-Muslim areas wears/wore some kind of headwears too due to the environment around them

That said , There are women who wear it by oppression ( either misunderstood as religious thing or by people around her ) and there are women who wear it without any kind of oppression , but personally being a muslim from a muslim Majority country , I think the percentage of oppressed is way higher than the non-oppressed , Most Women werent wearing it here in the 40's/50's/60's , until Wahhabism/extremists started to rise and started forcing it , I also don't want to bring up the awful treatment that any woman would usually get when she takes off the Hijab even from the closest people to her that reaches the beating up levels

Quality post. It is important to see that it is yet another tool used for the oppression of women. There are unfortunately many such tools.
 

Yunsar

Member
Oct 27, 2017
423
And I'm willing to bet those women are subject to the "it's a choice but they should be told under no mistake they should wear it and they're wrong if they don't." BS the poster at the bottom of last page was going on about.

How would you know? You've never even met them. My own mother even had a phase when she would wear Hijab everyday, and when she decided to stop no one cared.
 

Assenzio

Alt account
Banned
Mar 18, 2019
775
This is the dumbest thing I've seen today.

You are not forced to wear the Hijab by religion, usually is the society that forces you ( for exemple it's impossible to see a woman without it in Iran but it's very common in Tunisia).

That being said wearing any kind of veil and then be a model is kind of dumb and not empowering at all. It would be empowering maybe if she takes it off, but wearing a veil is not just wearing a veil it's a choice to protect one's beauty and to maximise one's purity. Wearing a hijab by being a model it's like being vegetarian but using bacon as bread.

This is just a marketing stunt. I am not a muslim, but I know through my mother that chose to never wear one what it means.
 

Deleted member 888

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
14,361
tenor.gif


Zvonimir Boban is not obligated to debate you when it's clear that you have an anti religion agenda.

Zvonimir Boban is not obligated to quote me either, but he chose to engage so I responded.

I'm criticising parts of religions or religious cultures, yes, but if you think that is an anti-religion agenda then I'm only sorry you appear unable to detach some of the examples of religious Conservatism I criticise from all the other parts of religions I don't mention or would even praise as being positive.

Maybe if people who were religious stopped holding onto some of the most objectively harmful or regressive things we could all move on and never have to have drawn out theological debates and arguments. People could believe in whatever God they want as a private and spiritual matter and actually be progressive alongside that. But humans are going to be humans and be full of fear that they have to follow whatever religion is their choice to the book/to what the Priest/Imam says.

So until that day where "everyone" is religious minus all the dehumanising or outdated shit in each given text people "in the current year" will continue to point to things that don't stand the test of time. Grown adults, men especially, are simply going to have to handle being challenged.

As I joked in my circumcision topic that was full of credible scientific backing for why its child abuse, if you're a grown man who thinks God is waiting at the gates of judgement to deny you entry to an afterlife because you didn't cut your baby boys penis, what kind of God is that? I know that is complete satire and ridicule of the religious concept of judgement prior to entry to heaven, but as a human being its a normal way to think. When should we ever respect people who want to harm or oppress others and/or expect us to do that to for THEIR respect?

I've said something to that effect to my dad in the past as he's Catholic and many devout Catholics are absolutely paralysed by the concept of judgement. It literally causes emotional and psychological abuse and an individual to live a life with fear. Fear of God judging them and every minor transgression on earth being a sin. Not to stray too far off into bringing up my personal childhood, but it is abuse inflicted on people primarily by Priests. The male authority figures who stand and cast judgement on their flock and instill fear in them. All the fields associated with psychology let us know these days coercing people by fear is a detriment to mental health and stability.

Another anecdote from my life. A priest from a funeral of my high school friends mum who committed suicide ranting on about suicide being a sin... at the funeral. A tragic end to someone's life who was seriously suffering from mental health issues and a priest is more concerned about letting everyone know about sinning and the holy judgement they could face if they sinned. The same nonsense many Catholic authority figures and the institute itself aims at gay people. You're a sin for existing, sort that out or God will smite you for having gay sex. What kind of God or men of those robes are worth respecting if they dehumanise a gay person when science and psychology "in the current year" know being gay isn't a choice? Oh the men writing the books at the time "didn't know better". Okay, you can somewhat make that argument men thousands of years ago feared the unknown and judged the minorities sleeping with the same sex. Not now.

Apply that same logic to wanting to treat women differently than men, or authority figures that think women have to be more modest than men. It's outdated bullshit that if you personally choose to hold onto you will be criticised. And yes, it's challenging to criticise the oppressed for their actions or those "forced" via shame and cultural expectation to confirm. But that doesn't mean you behave like a spineless jellyfish or progressive chameleon and change your own tune when it causes less friction/controversy or you can prevent yourself being called every name imaginable.

So people in this topic calling me everything under the sun whilst asking the mods to ban me can take a damn seat as I'm well versed in my own life and from watching others the abusive pressure put onto people via religion and religious authority figures. Something which modesty garbs are intrinsically tied up in. Their very existence and history is tied up in making sure people can visually see that a woman must be covered in public and identified as so by anyone else in the vicinity. The socio-cultural impact of it being normalized that women should be identified as being covered more than men in public is a real thing, whether men in this topic want to throw shit at me or not. This is how traditions propagate society and how authority figures can manage to take their preaching from a micro level to a macro level where nearly all the flocks obey.
 
Last edited:
Oct 25, 2017
1,659
Hull, England
User Banned (1 week): Islamophobic concern trolling
The Hijab was created by men as a means to cover women up whether they want to or not is that correct? if so, then is it an oppressive item of clothing, which is a bad thing one would assume?, why don't Muslim men wear it? why only women?.

Something else I have noticed is white English women in my city who have married Muslim men and wear a Hijab despite being born and raised not as a Muslim, why is that?, is it forced on them as part of marrying a Muslim man or a trend thing?.

I ask these questions as someone with no motive other than knowledge, I am an atheist so my religious / cultural knowledge is very very poor at best.
 

Alice

Banned
Nov 2, 2017
5,867
Oh look, another smug more-enlightened-than-thou westerner who knows everything about Muslim women without ever talking to any of them.

Are you ignoring the poster people are talking about right now on purpose? Because he's a prime example for that pressure that people have been talking about.

Telling someone that they have to dress a certain way or they're a sinner is pressure and force.
 

Discontent

Member
May 25, 2018
4,232
Remember, saying religion isn't real is bad. But saying women should be pressured into wearing the Hijab is A-Okay apparently.

We've got to the point here were posters are defending hypothetical Muslims that wear the Hijab out of 100% choice with no outside pressure (something that obviously doesn't exist) yet letting this shit fly.

People on here actively encourage atheism all the time. Not only that but they call religious people stupid, ignorant, vain, braindead and hundreds of other things. If a Muslim was to become an atheist because of what they read on here, would they have been forced into doing so?

Similarly, if I was to actively encourage Islam (if I did, I would try my best not to be dismissive, though. And I don't say that boastfully or that I'm better than them) and somebody became a Muslim because of what I told them would they have been forced into doing so? Of course not, everyone has their own brain. Now, what about if a Muslim man (or woman) says to a Muslim woman it's a noble thing to wear the hijab? Remember, I categorically said she should not be forced to do so and she should not be shamed for not wearing it. Also, if that person makes her feel inferior, THAT PERSON is sinful. You're acting like there's no loving way to convince someone of something.

You're being overtly sexist when you say roughly 800 million (or let's just say 50% of whom wear hijab for arguments sake) don't have the strength and determination of character, or the intelligence to make a decision and judge for themselves what they want to do. You're also being grossly sexist to the male Muslim population at large by saying they're forcing their women into something they don't want to do. Some of them do, most of them don't.

By your reasoning, you are mentally oppressing Muslim women by pretty much saying 'Listen, ladies, it's Mr (or Mrs) Right here. Look, listen, the only reason youre wearing the hijab is because you've been pressured to by the men. But that's not my reasoning and that's not what I'm saying. Because I know the Muslim women are intelligent enough to know when someone is full of it.
 

Discontent

Member
May 25, 2018
4,232
Please, don't take that as me trying to talk down to you. What I'm saying is we're all brothers and sisters of humanity and it's important not to be pessimistic in regards to each others intentions
 

Acorn

Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,972
Scotland
I personally know people that choose to wear a hijab, kinda sick of internet people trying to tell me otherwise or get into some "but what is free will really" wankery.
 

Food

Alt account
Banned
Mar 20, 2019
67
The Hijab was created by men as a means to cover women up whether they want to or not is that correct? if so, then is it an oppressive item of clothing, which is a bad thing one would assume?, why don't Muslim men wear it? why only women?.

Something else I have noticed is white English women in my city who have married Muslim men and wear a Hijab despite being born and raised not as a Muslim, why is that?, is it forced on them as part of marrying a Muslim man or a trend thing?.

I ask these questions as someone with no motive other than knowledge, I am an atheist so my religious / cultural knowledge is very very poor at best.

Jesus Christ. This thread has really shows what cesspool of bigots and racists reset has. Weird the mods are letting this run wild. Not much better than Neogaff at the moment.

Jews, Hindus, Christians, and Sikhs all have religious attire specific to sex or gender. Funny how you bigots are silent on that.

GTFO with your bigoted 'questions'. A white woman married to a Muslim man, can wear whatever she wants. We don't need your brand of racism and bigotry.
 

Food

Alt account
Banned
Mar 20, 2019
67
Yeah, I'm sure social pressure is not a thing that exists at all. I'm sure some Muslim women have never experienced any pressure at all...

Especially when I do know Muslim women, and it is a real thing they face. We have an actual Muslim woman in this thread saying it was real and the only people saying it aren't are Muslim men.

Your profile says you're not a woman either, so the fuck are you talking about?

What the fuck are you talking about? What does some women being pressured have to do with the topic? All people in all customs are pressured to follow traditions. That is pretty damned obvious. Jewish women are pressurised to wear wigs, and shave their heads. Funny how you bigots don't throw hissy fits about that.

Many women choose to wear the Hijab freely, and want to. That is a fact. Just like the person this thread is about.

Crazy how the bigots go nuts when the see a hijab. Sad.
 

Goldtones

Banned
Oct 29, 2017
270
Jesus Christ. This thread has really shows what cesspool of bigots and racists reset has. Weird the mods are letting this run wild. Not much better than Neogaff at the moment.

Jews, Hindus, Christians, and Sikhs all have religious attire specific to sex or gender. Funny how you bigots are silent on that.

GTFO with your bigoted 'questions'. A white woman married to a Muslim man, can wear whatever she wants. We don't need your brand of racism and bigotry.

Yet you're the one making the most racist comments in this thread.
 

Haze

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,775
Detroit, MI
That's the weakest excuse for oppression ever.

The thing is, as actual Islamic people have said in this thread, is that the religion itself does not require the attire. That's policy written through "interpretations" and societal norms developed through those.

Muslim women outside of places that enforce, for example, sharia law, can and do choose to wear the headgear as a submission to God in the same way as other religions use attire (Jews, Sikhs, etc). And especially in America, many wear it as a sign of ethnic pride and a way to assert their identity (See. The photo spread this thread is about).

Ultimately, it is a very complex thing and to completely disregard those nuances in favor of absolutely dismantling the concept of the attire is disingenuous.
 

Siggy-P

Avenger
Mar 18, 2018
11,865
Jesus Christ. This thread has really shows what cesspool of bigots and racists reset has. Weird the mods are letting this run wild. Not much better than Neogaff at the moment.

Jews, Hindus, Christians, and Sikhs all have religious attire specific to sex or gender. Funny how you bigots are silent on that.

GTFO with your bigoted 'questions'. A white woman married to a Muslim man, can wear whatever she wants. We don't need your brand of racism and bigotry.
What the fuck are you talking about? What does some women being pressured have to do with the topic? All people in all customs are pressured to follow traditions. That is pretty damned obvious. Jewish women are pressurised to wear wigs, and shave their heads. Funny how you bigots don't throw hissy fits about that.

Many women choose to wear the Hijab freely, and want to. That is a fact. Just like the person this thread is about.

Crazy how the bigots go nuts when the see a hijab. Sad.

You're not worth arguing with. All you do is take peoples posts and exagurate then to 100 in an attempt to get attention from the mods.

There's evidently no middle ground for you.


Again, I'll ask though, are you gonna address the person last page saying women should be pressured into wearing it?
 

DIE BART DIE

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,845
To be clear, I am not in support of when Muslim women don't wear hijab. I'm just calling you out on this false info. According to the religion they are sinful and there's no two ways about it, but they are our beloved sisters and by no means are they outside the fold of Islam.They should be told in no uncertain terms that they're doing wrong and encouraged with love and compassion to wear the hijab. At the time of the early Muslims there were women that weren't wearing hijab in public and they weren't punished or forced to wear it.

This is the most sinister thing I've read in this thread.

Also, women being "expected/advised" to wear it and saying women "should be encouraged with love and compassion to wear it" in your country may not technically imply forced coercion...but it sure sounds like heavy societal pressure, at least.
 

Alice

Banned
Nov 2, 2017
5,867
The thing is, as actual Islamic people have said in this thread, is that the religion itself does not require the attire. That's policy written through "interpretations" and societal norms developed through those.

Muslim women outside of places that enforce, for example, sharia law, can and do choose to wear the headgear as a submission to God in the same way as other religions use attire (Jews, Sikhs, etc). And especially in America, many wear it as a sign of ethnic pride and a way to assert their identity (See. The photo spread this thread is about).

Ultimately, it is a very complex thing and to completely disregard those nuances in favor of absolutely dismantling the concept of the attire is disingenuous.

I know what actual Islam preaches, I have muslim family, not like that at all matters - That's why I'm reacting to a certain poster. One, you may notice, none of the people arguing for the freedom to choose from a muslim perspective have actually taken any energy to discrediting or even disagreeing with. We have had an actual muslim woman in this thread talk about how she's being treated for not wearing the Hijab, and yet, all the fucking focus is here on a bunch of goddamn men slinging shit at eachother.

It's all sorts of disgusting what's going on here.
 

Food

Alt account
Banned
Mar 20, 2019
67
You're not worth arguing with. All you do is take peoples posts and exagurate then to 100 in an attempt to get attention from the mods.

There's evidently no middle ground for you.


Again, I'll ask though, are you gonna address the person let page saying women should be pressured into wearing it?

LMAO

You're not worth arguing with.

Then you attempt to argue with me. Good job.

Am I going to address that person? I replied to you. What kind of inane say nothing response is this? " Reply to that person!" Um no, why should I reply to a post a million people have already responded to?

Going back to what I said, all religions, traditions and customs have people especially some women being pressured into it. Obviously. That is not what this thread is about, so its fucking bizarre you are posting reply after reply about it. But I guess bigotry doesn't have much rhyme or reason.

Only thing disgusting here is the pathetic bigots criticising a woman for an article of clothing she chooses to wear.
 

Deleted member 888

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
14,361
The thing is, as actual Islamic people have said in this thread, is that the religion itself does not require the attire. That's policy written through "interpretations" and societal norms developed through those.

Muslim women outside of places that enforce, for example, sharia law, can and do choose to wear the headgear as a submission to God in the same way as other religions use attire (Jews, Sikhs, etc). And especially in America, many wear it as a sign of ethnic pride and a way to assert their identity (See. The photo spread this thread is about).

Ultimately, it is a very complex thing and to completely disregard those nuances in favor of absolutely dismantling the concept of the attire is disingenuous.

My best understanding from reading English translations of the Koran is that it mentions women being modest. It doesn't specifically refer to veiling, but more so people interpret pretty open-ended statements.

Verses that have to do with hijab:

1 – Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

"And tell the believing women to lower their gaze (from looking at forbidden things), and protect their private parts (from illegal sexual acts) and not to show off their adornment except only that which is apparent (like both eyes for necessity to see the way, or outer palms of hands or one eye or dress like veil, gloves, headcover, apron), and to draw their veils all over Juyoobihinna (i.e. their bodies, faces, necks and bosoms) and not to reveal their adornment except to their husbands, or their fathers, or their husband's fathers, or their sons, or their husband's sons, or their brothers or their brother's sons, or their sister's sons, or their (Muslim) women (i.e. their sisters in Islam), or the (female) slaves whom their right hands possess, or old male servants who lack vigour, or small children who have no sense of feminine sex. And let them not stamp their feet so as to reveal what they hide of their adornment. And all of you beg Allaah to forgive you all, O believers, that you may be successful"

[al-Noor 24:31]

2 – Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

"And as for women past childbearing who do not expect wedlock, it is no sin on them if they discard their (outer) clothing in such a way as not to show their adornment. But to refrain (i.e. not to discard their outer clothing) is better for them. And Allaah is All‑Hearer, All‑Knower"

[al-Noor 24:60]

"Women past childbearing" are those who no longer menstruate, so they can no longer get pregnant or bear children.

We shall see below the words of Hafsah bint Sireen and the way in which she interpreted this verse.

3 – Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

"O Prophet! Tell your wives and your daughters and the women of the believers to draw their cloaks (veils) all over their bodies (i.e. screen themselves completely except the eyes or one eye to see the way). That will be better, that they should be known (as free respectable women) so as not to be annoyed. And Allaah is Ever Oft‑Forgiving, Most Merciful"

[al-Ahzaab 33:59]

4 – Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

"O you who believe! Enter not the Prophet's houses, unless permission is given to you for a meal, (and then) not (so early as) to wait for its preparation. But when you are invited, enter, and when you have taken your meal, disperse without sitting for a talk. Verily, such (behaviour) annoys the Prophet, and he is shy of (asking) you (to go); but Allaah is not shy of (telling you) the truth. And when you ask (his wives) for anything you want, ask them from behind a screen, that is purer for your hearts and for their hearts. And it is not (right) for you that you should annoy Allaah's Messenger, nor that you should ever marry his wives after him (his death). Verily, with Allaah that shall be an enormity"

[al-Ahzaab 33:53]

With regard to the Ahaadeeth:

1 – It was narrated from Safiyyah bint Shaybah that 'Aa'ishah (may Allaah be pleased with her) used to say: When these words were revealed – "and to draw their veils all over Juyoobihinna (i.e. their bodies, faces, necks and bosoms)" – they took their izaars (a kind of garment) and tore them from the edges and covered their faces with them.

Narrated by al-Bukhaari, 4481. The following version was narrated by Abu Dawood (4102):

May Allaah have mercy on the Muhaajir women. When Allaah revealed the words "and to draw their veils all over Juyoobihinna (i.e. their bodies, faces, necks and bosoms)", they tore the thickest of their aprons (a kind of garment) and covered their faces with them.

Shaykh Muhammad al-Ameen al-Shanqeeti (may Allaah have mercy on him) said:

This hadeeth clearly states that what the Sahaabi women mentioned here understood from this verse – "and to draw their veils all over Juyoobihinna (i.e. their bodies, faces, necks and bosoms)" – was that they were to cover their faces, and that they tore their garments and covered their faces with them, in obedience to the command of Allaah in the verse where He said "and to draw their veils all over Juyoobihinna (i.e. their bodies, faces, necks and bosoms)" which meant covering their faces. Thus the fair-minded person will understand that woman's observing hijab and covering her face in front of men is established in the saheeh Sunnah that explains the Book of Allaah. 'Aa'ishah (may Allaah be pleased with her) praised those women for hastening to follow the command of Allaah given in His Book. It is known that their understanding of the words "and to draw their veils all over Juyoobihinna (i.e. their bodies, faces, necks and bosoms)" as meaning covering the face came from the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him), because he was there and they asked him about everything that they did not understand about their religion. And Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

"And We have also sent down unto you (O Muhammad) the Dhikr [reminder and the advice (i.e. the Qur'aan)], that you may explain clearly to men what is sent down to them, and that they may give thought"

[al-Nahl 16:44]

Ibn Hajar said in Fath al-Baari: There is a report of Ibn Abi Haatim via 'Abd-Allaah ibn 'Uthmaan ibn Khaytham from Safiyyah that explains that. This report says: We mentioned the women of Quraysh and their virtues in the presence of 'Aa'ishah and she said: "The women of Quraysh are good, but by Allaah I have never seen any better than the women of the Ansaar, or any who believed the Book of Allaah more strongly or had more faith in the Revelation. When Soorat al-Noor was revealed – "and to draw their veils all over Juyoobihinna (i.e. their bodies, faces, necks and bosoms)" – their menfolk came to them and recited to them what had been revealed, and there was not one woman among them who did not go to her apron, and the following morning they prayed wrapped up as if there were crows on their heads. It was also narrated clearly in the report of al-Bukhaari narrated above, where we see 'Aa'ishah (may Allaah be pleased with her), who was so knowledgeable and pious, praising them in this manner and stating that she had never seen any women who believed the Book of Allaah more strongly or had more faith in the Revelation. This clearly indicates that they understood from this verse – "and to draw their veils all over Juyoobihinna (i.e. their bodies, faces, necks and bosoms)" – that it was obligatory to cover their faces and that this stemmed from their belief in the Book of Allaah and their faith in the Revelation. It also indicates that women's observing hijab in front of men and covering their faces is an act of belief in the Book of Allaah and faith in the Revelation. It is very strange indeed that some of those who claim to have knowledge say that there is nothing in the Qur'aan or Sunnah that says that women have to cover their faces in front of non-mahram men, even though the Sahaabi women did that in obedience to the command of Allaah in His Book, out of faith in the Revelation, and that this meaning is also firmly entrenched in the Sunnah, as in the report from al-Bukhaari quoted above. This is among the strongest evidence that all Muslim women are obliged to observe hijab.

Adwa' al-Bayaan, 6/594-595.

2 – It was narrated from 'Aa'ishah that the wives of the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) used to go out at night to al-Manaasi' (well known places in the direction of al-Baqee') to relieve themselves and 'Umar used to say to the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him), "Let your wives be veiled." But the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) did not do that. Then one night Sawdah bint Zam'ah, the wife of the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him), went out at 'Isha' time and she was a tall woman. 'Umar called out to her: "We have recognized you, O Sawdah!" hoping that hijab would be revealed, then Allaah revealed the verse of hijab.

Narrated by al-Bukhaari, 146; Muslim, 2170.

3 – It was narrated from Ibn Shihaab that Anas said: I am the most knowledgeable of people about hijab. Ubayy ibn Ka'b used to ask me about it. When the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) married Zaynab bint Jahsh, whom he married in Madeenah, he invited the people to a meal after the sun had risen. The Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) sat down and some men sat around him after the people had left, until the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) stood up and walked a while, and I walked with him, until he reached the door of 'Aa'ishah's apartment. Then he thought that they had left so he went back and I went back with him, and they were still sitting there. He went back again, and I went with him, until he reached the door of 'Aa'ishah's apartment, then he came back and I came back with him, and they had left. Then he drew a curtain between me and him, and the verse of hijab was revealed.

Al-Bukhaari, 5149; Muslim, 1428.

4 – It was narrated from 'Urwah that 'Aa'ishah said: The Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) used to pray Fajr and the believing women would attend (the prayer) with him, wrapped in their aprons, then they would go back to their houses and no one would recognize them.

Narrated by al-Bukhaari, 365; Muslim, 645.

5 – It was narrated that 'Aa'ishah (may Allaah be pleased with her) said: "The riders used to pass by us when we were with the Messenger of Allaah (S) in ihraam, and when they drew near to us we would lower our jilbabs from our heads over our faces, then when they had passed we would uncover them again.

Narrated by Abu Dawood, 1833; Ibn Maajah, 2935; classed as saheeh by Ibn Khuzaymah (4,203) and by al-Albaani in Kitaab Jilbaab al-Mar'ah al-Muslimah.

6 – It was narrated that Asma' bint Abi Bakr said: We used to cover our faces in front of men.

Narrated by Ibn Khuzaymah, 4/203; al-Haakim, 1/624. He classed it as saheeh and al-Dhahabi agreed with him. It was also classed as saheeh by al-Albaani in Jilbaab al-Mar'ah al-Muslimah.

7 – It was narrated that 'Aasim al-Ahwaal said: We used to enter upon Hafsah bint Sireen who had put her jilbab thus and covered her face with it, and we would say to her: May Allaah have mercy on you. Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning): "And as for women past childbearing who do not expect wedlock, it is no sin on them if they discard their (outer) clothing in such a way as not to show their adornment" [al-Noor 24:60]. And she would say to us: What comes after that? We would say: "But to refrain (i.e. not to discard their outer clothing) is better for them". And she would say: That is confirming the idea of hijab.

Narrated by al-Bayhaqi, 7/93.

For more information please see Question no. 6991.

Veiling seems to be a man-made socio-cultural tradition to go to the furthest extremes of modesty, where even the face and/or hair has to be covered. Whereas in most cultures now we are primarily concerned with covering the genitalia in public as an expectation. Which like it or not does have psychologically grounded reasoning backing it up, because children exist in public before we even consider how spaces tend to be "invaded" in public whether it's on a train or in crowded areas. No one would want people's cocks, balls and arses bare and rubbing off each other.

More practical issues like weather and dressing for the occasion exist too, but they aren't public mandated 24/7 expectations. The face is one of the most important things for able-bodied (non-blind) humans to interact with. Facial expressions, lip watching, eye contact and more are the foundation of interaction and acceptance amongst the species. Hence why full-face veils are met with such abhorrent responses. At least with hair only veiling the face tends to be unobstructed.

But hair veiling is still built on the grounds of sexism, implying that women have to be modest with their hair. There's a reason there is the viral before/after pictures of the Islamic revolution in Iran where women looked like equals to men and then after women ended up veiled.
 

Haze

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,775
Detroit, MI
My best understanding from reading English translations of the Koran is that it mentions women being modest. It doesn't specifically refer to veiling, but more so people interpret pretty open-ended statements.
I'm pretty sure all of the abrahamic religions are equally misogynistic in their text and propose that women be "modest" and are essentially second-class beings to men. If we're going to criticize Islam then we have to be fair and also criticize Judaism and Christianity. Maybe even more, I'm just only versed in the anthemic religions to the extent that I can discuss it like this. The "veiling" comes from the prophet veiling his wives but it's not alluded to that other women should be veiled. The system of veiling is absolutely a societal construction and that's why in some Muslim majority countries, it isn't a mandated law like it is in some others.

I know what actual Islam preaches, I have muslim family, not like that at all matters - That's why I'm reacting to a certain poster. One, you may notice, none of the people arguing for the freedom to choose from a muslim perspective have actually taken any energy to discrediting or even disagreeing with. We have had an actual muslim woman in this thread talk about how she's being treated for not wearing the Hijab, and yet, all the fucking focus is here on a bunch of goddamn men slinging shit at eachother.

It's all sorts of disgusting what's going on here.

You also have people giving anecdote that they choose to wear the hijab for various reasons. What it really boils down to, is that within this context, women can choose to wear or not to wear it for whatever reason they want.
 

Siggy-P

Avenger
Mar 18, 2018
11,865
Am I going to address that person? I replied to you. What kind of inane say nothing response is this? Going back to what I said, all religions, traditions and customs have people especially some women being pressured into it. Obviously. That is not what this thread is about, so its fucking bizarre you are posting reply after reply about it. But I guess bigotry doesn't have much rhyme or reason.

So no then. You aren't gonna adress them. Why not? Do you not find what they wrote objectionable?




Yes, we should be protecting a woman's right to wear a Hijab if she chooses to. I've been called a white traitor saying similar in real life.

But for the most part that rarely seems to be the case. We can't pretend like the massive societal and communal pressure isn't real and for the most part in Muslim communities, all encompassing. You can argue that me and Audioboxer are pushing a narrative but the few actual Muslim posters in this thread support our narrative to a T.

Though we have more than a few liberal Muslims on this site, I don't think it's an exaguration to say that they aren't all super liberal and left wing. You can't ignore Muslim men trying to force the Hijab onto other Muslim women just because it's usually the Right Wing attacking Muslims. Especially when we have a Muslim man advocating pressuring women I to wearing a Hijab in this very thread. That's not in the benefit of anyone.
 

Deleted member 888

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
14,361
I'm pretty sure all of the abrahamic religions are equally misogynistic in their text and propose that women be "modest" and are essentially property. The "veiling" comes from the prophet veiling his wives but it's not alluded to that other women should be veiled.

You also have people giving anecdote that they choose to wear the hijab for various reasons. What it really boils down to, is that within this context, women can choose to wear or not to wear it for whatever reason they want.

Well I know that, I've said as much throughout this topic. All the Abrahamic religions copy from each other and/or have very similar passages and traditions of treating women as property more than equals. Man "made" religions and the power structures throughout history have favoured male-dominated institutes and males being the authority figures. Catholicism and Islam still to this day feature male-dominated power structures with gender segregation at varying degrees from the top to the bottom.
 

Food

Alt account
Banned
Mar 20, 2019
67
My best understanding from reading English translations of the Koran is that it mentions women being modest. It doesn't specifically refer to veiling, but more so people interpret pretty open-ended statements.



Veiling seems to be a man-made socio-cultural tradition to go to the furthest extremes of modesty, where even the face and/or hair has to be covered. Whereas in most cultures now we are primarily concerned with covering the genitalia in public as an expectation. Which like it or not does have psychologically grounded reasoning backing it up, because children exist in public before we even consider how spaces tend to be "invaded" in public whether it's on a train or in crowded areas. No one would want people's cocks, balls and arses bare and rubbing off each other.

More practical issues like weather and dressing for the occasion exist too, but they aren't public mandated 24/7 expectations. The face is one of the most important things for able-bodied (non-blind) humans to interact with. Facial expressions, lip watching, eye contact and more are the foundation of interaction and acceptance amongst the species. Hence why full-face veils are met with such abhorrent responses. At least with hair only veiling the face tends to be unobstructed.

But hair veiling is still built on the grounds of sexism, implying that women have to be modest with their hair. There's a reason there is the viral before/after pictures of the Islamic revolution in Iran where women looked like equals to men and then after women ended up veiled.

JFC. I cannot believe you are here every single time I have popped into this thread. Every single time. You might want to get outside.
 

Goldtones

Banned
Oct 29, 2017
270
What a scintillating well explained post. You seem very smart.

You're the only person in here I've seen attacking a race.

It's also hilarious to see you complain about the style of posts while pushing your right wing beliefs in the style of Trump even down to the randomly ending you posts with SAD.
 

Food

Alt account
Banned
Mar 20, 2019
67
So no then. You aren't gonna adress them. Why not? Do you not find what they wrote objectionable?




Yes, we should be protecting a woman's right to wear a Hijab if she chooses to. I've been called a white traitor saying similar in real life.

But for the most part that rarely seems to be the case. We can't pretend like the massive societal and communal pressure isn't real and for the most part in Muslim communities, all encompassing. You can argue that me and Audioboxer are pushing a narrative but the few actual Muslim posters in this thread support our narrative to a T.

Though we have more than a few liberal Muslims on this site, I don't think it's an exaguration to say that they aren't all super liberal and left wing. You can't ignore Muslim men trying to force the Hijab onto other Muslim women just because it's usually the Right Wing attacking Muslims. Especially when we have a Muslim man advocating pressuring women I to wearing a Hijab in this very thread. That's not in the benefit of anyone.

LMAO

So your refutation is why am I not going to reply to an old post, tons of people have replied too? What kind insane rationale is that? No offence, but that is just flat out dumb, and has nothing to do with anything. Pure deflection, when someone is unable to prove a point.

Umm, half the thread has already replied to him telling him he is wrong, he even accepted that himself. If I thought those people were wrong, I would reply to them. Not sure why I should parrot 100 other replies. Fucking bizarre and utterly irrelevant.
 

Deleted member 888

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
14,361
JFC. I cannot believe you are here every single time I have popped into this thread. Every single time. You might want to get outside.

Look, I've not reported anyone in this topic and have "let" you and others call me for everything under the sun, but your posts in here are insanely hostile and confrontational and you only have 66 posts on Resetera, yet seem to know everything about me and others. Even mentioning my topic creating rights being taken away which was before your account was registered.

If I was a betting man I'd say you come across like an alt-account with past baggage on some sort of vengeance run to ban-bait and name call until you either get the posters banned you don't like, because people slip up and react emotionally to you calling them shit, or your own account gets nuked.

Don't be telling me to grow up or go outside if your own contributions are majority inflammatory accusations and name calling of fellow posters. Also, complaining about me being in the topic at the same time as yourself, that's some irony right there. How about you take your own advice and "go outside" if you don't want to be in the topic with other posters?
 

Haze

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,775
Detroit, MI
Well I know that, I've said as much throughout this topic. All the Abrahamic religions copy from each other and/or have very similar passages and traditions of treating women as property more than equals. Man "made" religions and the power structures throughout history have favoured male-dominated institutes and males being the authority figures. Catholicism and Islam still to this day feature male-dominated power structures with gender segregation at varying degrees from the top to the bottom.

As long as we're keeping a fair critique of these same religions that's fine and that's critiquing in good faith. Much of the world's misogyny in general stems from the prevalence of how these faiths were interpreted and weaponized for male power structure over centuries and persists today.
 

Deleted member 888

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
14,361
As long as we're keeping a fair critique of these same religions that's fine and that's critiquing in good faith. Much of the world's misogyny in general stems from the prevalence of how these faiths were interpreted and weaponized for male power structure over centuries and persists today.

Well, of course. As someone who has no eggs in any given basket why wouldn't I critique all religions, I do? As I said earlier in this topic the challenging part of debating with someone who adheres to one religion is they personally feel you are only "coming after" them. Sometimes they could be right if they can genuinely prove someone never criticises any other religion. Most of the time it's simply blinkered emotional attachment, because when other religions get criticised you don't care if you think they're the wrong or incorrect ones. It's only personal when it's your religion someone is talking about.

I even said in one post, from a psychological point of view, I get that. I have some empathy for why individuals are more emotional and animated if it's their religion of choice being spoken about. Why wouldn't they be? People care about the things they hold close to them/believe in, whilst potentially not caring as much about the things they don't believe in. Find me a religious person who has dual-religiosity. I bet you can't. As in someone who is both a Muslim and a Christian. None of the mainstream religions support that, they all either violently in some cases in the texts, or at least philosophically oppose "false Gods and prophets". There is only one true God.

At most you'll maybe find some religious people who'll say I see others from other faiths as being part of my faith, as there only is one God, but they're just misguided. Or you could find a cultural Jew, or cultural Muslim or cultural Christian who isn't really religious persay, but more spiritual and thinks everyone has a spiritual connection to the possibility of a creator.

But you don't find devout followers of multiple faiths. So each individual will be primarily concerned with criticism, satire or ridicule coming towards the religion they hold as truth. I'll say it again, I get that, but whatever you believe happens when you die, the earth and humans are the earth and humans. Facts, science, psychology and biology matter on this earth. Education and time passing since the Abrahamic books were written brings us to points in our current history where a lot of the shit that happened or was said thousands of years ago is either factually wrong or behaviourally immoral. Not seeing men and women as equal is both. Factually wrong and immoral. So it doesn't matter what religion it is, or what religious culture it is, if things are going on that clash with current day ethics, knowledge and expectations, they'll be criticised.
 

Haze

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,775
Detroit, MI
Well, of course. As someone who has no eggs in any given basket why wouldn't I critique all religions, I do? As I said earlier in this topic the challenging part of debating with someone who adheres to one religion is they personally feel you are only "coming after" them. Sometimes they could be right if they can genuinely prove someone never criticises any other religion. Most of the time it's simply blinkered emotional attachment, because when other religions get criticised you don't care if you think they're the wrong or incorrect ones. It's only personal when it's your religion someone is talking about.

I even said in one post, from a psychological point of view, I get that. I have some empathy for why individuals are more emotional and animated if it's their religion of choice being spoken about. Why wouldn't they be? People care about the things they hold close to them/believe in, whilst potentially not caring as much about the things they don't believe in. Find me a religious person who has dual-religiosity. I bet you can't. As in someone who is both a Muslim and a Christian. None of the mainstream religions support that, they all either violently in some cases in the texts, or at least philosophically oppose "false Gods and prophets". There is only one true God.

At most you'll maybe find some religious people who'll say I see others from other faiths as being part of my faith, as there only is one God, but they're just misguided. Or you could find a cultural Jew, or cultural Muslim or cultural Christian who isn't really religious persay, but more spiritual and thinks everyone has a spiritual connection to the possibility of a creator.

But you don't find devout followers of multiple faiths. So each individual will be primarily concerned with criticism, satire or ridicule coming towards the religion they hold as truth. I'll say it again, I get that, but whatever you believe happens when you die, the earth and humans are the earth and humans. Facts, science, psychology and biology matter on this earth. Education and time passing since the Abrahamic books were written brings us to points in our current history where a lot of the shit that happened or was said thousands of years ago is either factually wrong or behaviourally immoral. Not seeing men and women as equal is both. Factually wrong and immoral. So it doesn't matter what religion it is, or what religious culture it is, if things are going on that clash with current day ethics, knowledge and expectations, they'll be criticised.

I agree and I'm honestly all here for a completely secular society. But I can also see the benefits that came and still come from religion and that will likely never happen or at least not anytime remotely soon. In the mean time, I think religions need to accommodate the way the world has changed and change themselves. It wouldn't be the first time, as we all know Protestantism has splintered over a dozen major times so it's very possible for these religions to coexist in harmony with the current and future state of the world. Will it? I don't know.
 

Yunsar

Member
Oct 27, 2017
423
Telling someone that they have to dress a certain way or they're a sinner is pressure and force.

When have I ever said that? I only said Siggy-P should stop generalizing Muslim women because women who chooses to wear Hijab all on their own actually does exist in our current reality, whether you want to believe it or not. And I clearly never said that all Muslim women should wear Hijab, in my previous post I even wrote how my own mother doesn't wear Hijab anymore.
 

Puroresu_kid

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
9,465
I never quite understood why so many seem desperate to see a Muslim women's hair.

Sikhs wear turbans and its not an issue but a women wearing an Hijab seems to cause crazy reactions.
 

Deleted member 888

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
14,361
I agree and I'm honestly all here for a completely secular society. But I can also see the benefits that came and still come from religion and that will likely never happen or at least not anytime remotely soon. In the mean time, I think religions need to accommodate the way the world has changed and change themselves. It wouldn't be the first time, as we all know Protestantism has splintered over a dozen major times so it's very possible for these religions to coexist in harmony with the current and future state of the world. Will it? I don't know.

Secular laws and separation of Church and state should be mandatory, but religions will never and should never be outlawed/aimed to be removed. Unless we're talking actual cults masking as religions. As much as I want to say televangelicals are cults fleeceing people of money, I do have to give in and admit there is still a difference between branches of Christianity and fucking Scientology. Scientology really steps into the realms where nations, Governments and so on should be classing it as a scam/cult or potentially illegal pyramid scheme.

Everyone has to change and accommodate to reality and facts. Secular societies still jailed gay people, there are non-religious people today still denying gender dysphoria and things coming out from biological and psychological fields which have been researching and trying to understand the frictions between sex and gender. It's not just religious people who need to "get educated" to modern times.

The more challenging and difficult thing with religions though is just how devout people hold the word of God or the word coming from authority figures. It becomes an incredibly personal and hostile environment when people stroll in and say, modern medicine and psychology now says trans people have scientific backing and someone is still holding onto gay people being a sin before they even get met with "men/women can be born in women/men's bodies". Blasphemy is such a hard battlefield to walk through, as you are seen to be personally offending someone's higher power, someone's God.

The Old Testament got a "re-write" by men in order to try and conveniently sweep some of the violence under the rug, but it is my understanding the Koran is largely seen as the unalterable word of God. It just means things could be a bit more challenging or require different approaches to speak about one religion over another, but that doesn't mean giving one a pass over another. They should all be fair game for the same kinds of conversations, debates and critique we put to anything. Religious people have to accept that as well, you can't just imply when it's your religion in the spotlight it's "unfair", but when it's everyone else's religion, you don't bat an eyelid.

I never quite understood why so many seem desperate to see a Muslim women's hair.

Sikhs wear turbans and its not an issue but a women wearing an Hijab seems to cause crazy reactions.

Men face nowhere near the same amount of historic oppression by the male-dominated and ran institutes. If you want people to simply call a turban a form of modesty garb, many probably will. The difference in severity of challenging it probably will simply come down to knowledge about how history has treated women and still does today. Men and women have rarely ever been seen as equals, and religion has been one of the strongest proponents of gender segregation and gender inequality.
 
Last edited:

Wackamole

Member
Oct 27, 2017
16,932
It's a fucking crime we even have to discuss this. Let her wear what she wants. What SHE wants. Not what insecure backwards men want who are incapable of dealing with independent women. Muslim, atheist or otherwise.
 
Last edited:
Oct 27, 2017
11,505
Bandung Indonesia
And I'm willing to bet those women are subject to the "it's a choice but they should be told under no mistake they should wear it and they're wrong if they don't." BS the poster at the bottom of last page was going on about.

But I'm gonna stop posting in this thread now as it's blindingly obvious what posters actually support and what they truly genuinely don't give a shit about.

You don't know what you're talking about, and if there is one person who don't give a shit about people who may feel differently about the subject, claiming you are the one and only correct voice, it's you.
 

Puroresu_kid

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
9,465
Hi fellow ex-Muslim here and what you just said is 100% fucking bullshit.

The Qu'ran says nothing about the hijab and just states that both men and woman to dress modestly, also how dare you try and shame women who chooses not to wear the hijab.

It's their fucking choice and wearing one does not make one a better Muslim than those who chooses not to wear one. Furthermore anyone forcing women to wear one or not is not a real Muslim.

Only God can judge them.

You are the reason why Muslims around the world are given a negative image because of your sexist and backward mindset.

A theological debate isn't required but I'll say the Koran alone isn't the answer here. The Koran also doesn't tell one how to pray, when to pray or how to do the hajj pilgrimage correctly.

Put it simply one can argue the religion requires a women to cover her hair but as all humans we make a choice on whether we practice this demands. It's no different to Muslims being told not to drink alcohol yet some will.

I don't need to theologically tell someone they are wrong it's just we all have our own flaws, vices, etc etc and try to practice one's religion the best they can.
 

Alice

Banned
Nov 2, 2017
5,867
When have I ever said that? I only said Siggy-P should stop generalizing Muslim women because women who chooses to wear Hijab all on their own actually does exist in our current reality, whether you want to believe it or not. And I clearly never said that all Muslim women should wear Hijab, in my previous post I even wrote how my own mother doesn't wear Hijab anymore.

You should read the posts the person you're replying to has replied to.
 
Oct 27, 2017
11,505
Bandung Indonesia
Man, some of you will be dying of shock it seems, to see that there are actually plenty of Muslim women here in the biggest Muslim country in the world who could wear stuff like shorts or tank tops and just walking down the street and no one would bat an eye on them. Similarly. plenty of strong, independent women also wear stuff like hijabs out of their own volition, and even there are those who see such a clothing as empowering in itself.

Not denying that at some places women do get the pressure yes, but don't throw all Muslim women all in one basket, is all I'm saying.