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Squadron 42 Beta has been delayed by another 3 months

Dec 9, 2017
814
It's well documented that refunds were frequently withheld until backers threatened litigation or actually took Roberts to court in some cases. Stop lying.
Heck CIG has even shown up to small claims court to put down some of the heavier spenders attempts at getting a refund. That's what happened to some guy last year who had spent $4.5k on the game and wanted out.
 

aggrocrog

Member
Oct 29, 2017
699
LO-fucking-L at trying to tie this into the crunch debate because you've read some thread titles recently that used the word.
LOL at using strong language to deflect that ppl here whine constantly about game delays and never consider the relationship between meeting deadlines and crunch. It's not just a few thread titles, but maybe you're new.
 
Oct 26, 2017
3,867
LOL at using strong language to deflect that ppl here whine constantly about game delays and never consider the relationship between meeting deadlines and crunch. It's not just a few thread titles, but maybe you're new.
They've been telling their developers the game has a 2 year deadline, for the last 7 years running. If you think that's a good recipe for avoiding crunch, I don't know what to say.
 
Dec 23, 2018
161
LOL at using strong language to deflect that ppl here whine constantly about game delays and never consider the relationship between meeting deadlines and crunch. It's not just a few thread titles, but maybe you're new.
CIG has always been crunching. Maybe they are crunching less now given that they've pretty much cut down on their usual second half of the year media tour where they would crunch for the game shows to push out a demo that wasn't at all indicative of the state of the game. But I can guarantee you that they still crunch and its more noticeable toward the end of the year since thats usually the time where they set up the "Jesus Patch" thats supposed to fix all the problems of the game before stripping it up and relegating a bunch of its points to the year after.

It wasn't that long ago that CIG had basically everyone hands on deck to try and push out an update that was half baked on the fucking 23rd of December.
 

aggrocrog

Member
Oct 29, 2017
699
They've been telling their developers the game has a 2 year deadline, for the last 7 years running. If you think that's a good recipe for avoiding crunch, I don't know what to say.
It doesn't really matter what they're telling their devs, it only matters if they're actually crunching. MasterOfMagnet suggests that they have been, but I've seen the opposite problem. CIG operates like there is no real deadline and constantly adding features, which further exacerbates the problem.
 

Tulipunaruusu

Member
Oct 13, 2018
70
Well how long should you be able to get refunds on a crowdfunded project? For Steam it is two hours max and GOG pays your refund in their own store credit.
Despite neither necessarily having any work put into that game. With PS4 you have no refunds.

Cloud Imperium handed out refunds until the big 3.X Alpha version development leap in early 2018 with planetary technology. You had up to five years to ask your money back which I think is fair in comparison.

Especially when you bought into resourcing a crowdfunded game project which can either deliver whatever was it to you in the first place or not. Not into an investment or pre-order.

Sure I doubt anyone guessed the various troubles but they werent't either promising that people who worked as leads on Crysis 3 would by the way be making these games from 2015 on.
 
OP
OP
marzoo

marzoo

Member
Jun 1, 2018
2,311
CIG has always been crunching. Maybe they are crunching less now given that they've pretty much cut down on their usual second half of the year media tour where they would crunch for the game shows to push out a demo that wasn't at all indicative of the state of the game. But I can guarantee you that they still crunch and its more noticeable toward the end of the year since thats usually the time where they set up the "Jesus Patch" thats supposed to fix all the problems of the game before stripping it up and relegating a bunch of its points to the year after.

It wasn't that long ago that CIG had basically everyone hands on deck to try and push out an update that was half baked on the fucking 23rd of December.
THIS


also:
 

Flutter

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,293
It doesn't really matter what they're telling their devs, it only matters if they're actually crunching. MasterOfMagnet suggests that they have been, but I've seen the opposite problem. CIG operates like there is no real deadline and constantly adding features, which further exacerbates the problem.

They are definitely crunching.
 

Flutter

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,293
Delaying the beta release is not proof that they aren't crunching btw, God of War had to delay the release date because they couldnt meet even while crunching.

Also, it isn't even commented as a reason why it's delayed from the devs at all.
 

firehawk12

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,120
Well how long should you be able to get refunds on a crowdfunded project? For Steam it is two hours max and GOG pays your refund in their own store credit.
Despite neither necessarily having any work put into that game. With PS4 you have no refunds.

Cloud Imperium handed out refunds until the big 3.X Alpha version development leap in early 2018 with planetary technology. You had up to five years to ask your money back which I think is fair in comparison.

Especially when you bought into resourcing a crowdfunded game project which can either deliver whatever was it to you in the first place or not. Not into an investment or pre-order.

Sure I doubt anyone guessed the various troubles but they werent't either promising that people who worked as leads on Crysis 3 would by the way be making these games from 2015 on.
To be fair, even Sony offered refunds when some game was delayed (I think it was South Park).

It's weird because I've seen and been a part of so many scam kickstarters that I just consider it gambling now. But this is a kickstarter that is in scam territory but somehow is still in business and has hundreds of millions of dollars behind it, which makes it actually seem reasonable that you could get your money back somehow even if it's probably been long spent.
 

Tulipunaruusu

Member
Oct 13, 2018
70
It's weird because I've seen and been a part of so many scam kickstarters that I just consider it gambling now. But this is a kickstarter that is in scam territory but somehow is still in business and has hundreds of millions of dollars behind it, which makes it actually seem reasonable that you could get your money back somehow even if it's probably been long spent.
Given that crowdfunders didn't get a long term bank account from Cloud Imperium Games but helped to make and shape the company that was released upon the world I do not think there is that much to blame. At least anyone involved. Or at least none other than those who made pledges to get the project over the minimum line and in action. Maybe they should pay those who are in agony.

Kickstarter type of crowdfunding is quite horribly risky as you get nothing by default. Yet is has potentially brought myself and others games like Kingdom Come: Deliverance, a Czech national romantic medieval RPG and Squadron 42, potential resurrection of space war opera. Which are not exactly your usual game projects available for purchase elsewhere eventually.

CIG at least has put those dollars gathered into fueling passions of their talented workers who only began to have effect during the great European transformation of CIG in 2014-2016. I wouldn't say scam is the proper word to describe that process of employing hundreds of people since is easy to forget the difficulties it took for a crowdfunded game studio to even become much a game studio in terms of talent. And now they are employing Cryengine masters which was never promised.
 

Absoludacrous

The Fallen
Oct 26, 2017
1,127
LOL at using strong language to deflect that ppl here whine constantly about game delays and never consider the relationship between meeting deadlines and crunch. It's not just a few thread titles, but maybe you're new.
No, I think it's much more likely that you've fundamentally misunderstood both what's happening at Star Citizen and the nature of the crunch debate. To the point that you're muddying the waters of a serious issue because you're so desperate to not drown in this argument but all you have left are straws. But hey, maybe you're new.
 

Claven

Game Localization
Verified
Aug 22, 2018
2,804
Well how long should you be able to get refunds on a crowdfunded project? For Steam it is two hours max and GOG pays your refund in their own store credit.
Despite neither necessarily having any work put into that game. With PS4 you have no refunds.

Cloud Imperium handed out refunds until the big 3.X Alpha version development leap in early 2018 with planetary technology. You had up to five years to ask your money back which I think is fair in comparison.

Especially when you bought into resourcing a crowdfunded game project which can either deliver whatever was it to you in the first place or not. Not into an investment or pre-order.
It's getting incredibly hard trying to believe you're arguing in good faith at all, because Roberts promised refunds in case of non-delivery and then tried to weasel out of honoring that promise. This is, like, a matter of public record, you can't spin it.
 

Tulipunaruusu

Member
Oct 13, 2018
70
It's getting incredibly hard trying to believe you're arguing in good faith at all, because Roberts promised refunds in case of non-delivery and then tried to weasel out of honoring that promise. This is, like, a matter of public record, you can't spin it.
I would be interested to see that oath. Or how legally binding document it makes given the nature of crowdfunding where you are not owned about anything. The gameless again shall not have a game while the only refund any backer is offered is a broken dream.

'Chris Roberts' promised a minimum viable product in the game client contractual lingo and released 3.X-versions upon the world. I am glad he didn't stop there. Or when the first troubles began given the fruitful expansion to Europe that followed.
 
Oct 27, 2017
2,019
I would be interested to see that oath. Or how legally binding document it makes given the nature of crowdfunding where you are not owned about anything. The gameless again shall not have a game while the only refund any backer is offered is a broken dream.

'Chris Roberts' promised a minimum viable product in the game client contractual lingo and released 3.X-versions upon the world. I am glad he didn't stop there. Or when the first troubles began given the fruitful expansion to Europe that followed.



SC is as far away from the MVP as it was 2 years ago.

 

HylianSeven

Community Resetter
Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,428
I'm sure it will get delayed again. I point this out in almost every Star Citizen thread, but the project has been horribly mismanaged and I think is probably is a scam. You shouldn't sell jpegs of ships for thousands of dollars before there's even a game to play with them.

Elite Dangerous released, has had expansions with another coming this year, and many other updates.

In the time since SC's Kickstarter Shemue 3 was announced, kick-started, and will come out this year. We have had two Smash Bros. games. Final Fantasy 7 Remake (part 1 that is) comes out early next year.

Yet it seems CIG has little progress to show for it all. SC is a scam and the only way to convince me otherwise is when the game comes out.
 

Komo

Member
Jan 3, 2019
2,864
Yet it seems CIG has little progress to show for it all. SC is a scam and the only way to convince me otherwise is when the game comes out.
Little progress? I mean if it had little progress I wouldn't be able to play the game. It has full fledged modes already part way in it. It's not some pipe dream that doesn't exist. It very much exists.
 

Man God

Member
Oct 25, 2017
19,225
I still think my favorite fact about this whole debacle is that they once promised to disclose all of the financials if the game wasn't out within a certain time frame and then a month or so before that was met they changed the TOS and deleted that line.
 

senj

Member
Nov 6, 2017
1,137
Well how long should you be able to get refunds on a crowdfunded project? For Steam it is two hours max and GOG pays your refund in their own store credit.
If Steam took your money in exchange for something whose alpha only showed up 5 years later, I'd probably call their refund window a bit short
 
Jul 17, 2018
319
Little progress? I mean if it had little progress I wouldn't be able to play the game. It has full fledged modes already part way in it. It's not some pipe dream that doesn't exist. It very much exists.
'it has full fledged modes already part way in it' about a $200mil game developed over 7 years is one of the funniest lines itt so far.
 

spad3

Member
Oct 30, 2017
4,417
California
*something related to star citizen gets delayed again*
internet:


tbh, S42 looked fucking fantastic. I mean honestly I would rather have a finished product than a rushed one, but cmon now, don't announce something centuries before it even touches the market.
 

Noodle

Member
Aug 22, 2018
1,248
I did stumble onto this article:


What the hell is going on with Star Citizen?
Some backers are asking for their money back. Media reports are emerging that suggest Roberts has made a few questionable project management decisions. A release-date timeline touted by Roberts in January has completely slipped.
FEATURE CREEP

But this doesn't fully explain the overly ambitious release dates announced by Roberts.

Roberts bristles when asked about these slipped dates. "I'm damned if I do and I'm damned if I don't. I have some backers saying, don't give me dates. Make it right. Don't rush it. And then I have some people go, where is the game? I want to play it right now.
The scale of Star Citizen is one of the chief beefs of those backers who are losing patience, who say that the massive game currently being developed is not the same as the one they are now waiting for.
"I totally believed in it, but after so much delay, I just wanted my money back." He adds that the growing scale of the project and the delays made him feel that Cloud Imperium "had been dishonest and that the game was going downhill."
This was written in 2015. 4 years ago. A time some people claim development had barely started, and it was already at the stage where we had interviews on feature creep, missed dates, and mismanagement.


Star Citizen was originally due to be launched at the end of 2014. Although some limited modules are available to backers — two dogfighting maps (called Arena Commander), some spaceship racecourses, a hangar to store ships and a social hub — the vast bulk of the game is still in development.
It will also be connected to the single player campaign, Squadron 42 which will be given a new launch date at CitizenCon in October. It's reasonable to assume a 2016 launch date for that too, although Cloud Imperium may surprise. Squadron 42 is planned as a trilogy of full game campaigns.
So far, 2015 has been a tough year for Star Citizen backers. Yes, there have been tweaks and new starships added, but they've also had to deal with delays to other much-anticipated modules.

The game's Persistent Universe was originally supposed to be out in 2014, so it's not surprising that patience is wearing a little thin in some quarters.
 

Outrun

Member
Oct 30, 2017
1,763
I did stumble onto this article:












This was written in 2015. 4 years ago. A time some people claim development had barely started, and it was already at the stage where we had interviews on feature creep, missed dates, and mismanagement.
Yep.

Some of the backers go to such lengths to explain away the deadlines and release dates that CR and CIG themselves set.
 

DerpHause

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,804
LOL at using strong language to deflect that ppl here whine constantly about game delays and never consider the relationship between meeting deadlines and crunch. It's not just a few thread titles, but maybe you're new.
How dare people be upset about poor expectation management. Because it's the players fault that those deadlines and release schedules were set up in the first place right? So any disappointment when they aren't met is unjustified because we as players created this problem.

Wait, no, that makes no sense.

Maybe we should indeed be responding as we are at Chris Roberts and his continued failure to either run his operation smoothly, set reasonable, deadlines control the scope of his project or probably all of the above.
 
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Fularu

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,346
How dare people be upset about poor expectation management. Because it's the players fault that those deadlines and release schedules were set up in the first place right? So any disappointment when they aren't met is unjustified because we as players created this problem.

Wait, no, that makes no sense.

Maybe we should indeed be respond as we are at Chris Roberts and his continued failure to either run his operation smoothly, set reasonable, deadlines control the scope of his project or probably all of the above.
Roberts hasn’t respected a single deadline in all his career, you’re not expecting him to compromise his vision and utopia with such trivial matters now, do you?

There’s a reason the industry wants nothing to do with him
 

MechaBreaker

Member
Jun 26, 2018
2,041
This quote from Ken Lord, the subject of the piece, is so on point I can’t believe it: “They didn’t just figure out how to sell DLC for a game that didn’t yet exist, they figured out how to sell scope creep itself.”

That’s like a perfect summation of what it feels like hearing about star citizen currently.
 
Oct 26, 2017
3,867
"No one at Origin had much time to bask in the rapturous reception accorded to Wingleader at the 1990 Summer Consumer Electronics Show. Their end-of-September deadline for shipping the game was now barely three months away, and there remained a daunting amount of work to be done.

At the beginning of July, executive producer Dallas Snell called the troops together to tell them that crunch time was beginning in earnest; everyone would need to work at least 55 hours per week from now on. Most of the people on the project only smiled bemusedly at the alleged news flash. They were already working those kinds of hours, and knew all too well that a 55-hour work week would probably seem like a part-timer’s schedule before all was said and done.

At the beginning of August, Snell unceremoniously booted Chris Roberts, the project’s founder, from his role as co-producer, leaving him with only the title of director. Manifesting a tendency anyone familiar with his more recent projects will immediately recognize, Roberts had been causing chaos on the team by approving seemingly every suggested addition or enhancement that crossed his desk. Snell, the brutal pragmatist in this company full of dreamers, appointed himself as Warren Spector’s new co-producer. His first action was to place a freeze on new features in favor of getting the game that currently existed finished and out the door."

 

mutantmagnet

Member
Oct 28, 2017
8,070
Ouch. I feel really bad for that guy. Hopefylly this story deters some people who will get sucked into this project most likely to fail by spring 21.
 

Youngfossil

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,365
I can kinda see both sides, This is crazy how much it's delayed and what should have been out by now

BUT

A game of this scale and scope has never been done before not even close. There are going to be some unexpected roadblocks