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Love Machine

Member
Oct 29, 2017
4,238
Tokyo, Japan
Yeah, this is what should be alarming for people. SQ42 is supposed to launch any day now, Q3 2020 it is. Even if they push it back to Q4 or Q1 2021, by now that part of the game should be essentially feature-complete, so what they should be working on is correcting bugs, optimizing the engine, finalizing assets, maybe putting down the groundwork for post-launch support and the continuation of the story. Star Citizen is a whole other can of worms, but right now SQ42 should be at a point where laying down a public-compatible roadmap that explains the last touches they're adding to deliver the game in the very near future is an activity that should not take long.

And yet, they can't provide a roadmap in a timely fashion. They can't because there is too much stuff left to do. When it arrives, they'll no doubt point out the fact that some of the features will be iterated upon, that some of the additions they're making will make a certain update scheduled for 2021/2022 quicker and smoother. This is their comunication method. People want to know when they finally get to fly the ship they bought or when they can finally play the SQ42 story, instead what they get is this monster roadmap of stuff they worked on, canned, implemented, iterated.

All such a level of detail does is confuse people, bury the lead under a massive load of text and technical details that are completely irrelevant. If you as a player have not had the chance to experience the 2.5 version of one of their game system, what exactly does it tell you that they reverted it to 2.4 (which you also didn't play), while they moved features (you have not seen) onto the 3.0 iteration which will be worked on next year? It's "fried air" (to paraphrase an Italian figure of speech), because it's a wall of text that explains why they didn't deliver something you haven't even seen in its previous version. It could even be made up at that point.

If this were to be a well-managed project, after 8 years the features the game should launch with should not only be decided but be functionally ready, bar some bug-busting and other optimizations. Instead, this roadmap will likely contain lengthy explanations about how the shooting module is being reworked, how the walking animation is being iterated, how the crew AI is receiving fantastic new additions and so on. There's even gonna be percentages, hard dates, version numbers. You'll get to see they are working, that they're making legitimate progress towards something. But that something isn't release. That something is the next time the community makes an uproar about where the fuck is the game they backed almost a decade ago. By then, they'll find themselves under pressure to, once again, show meaningful progress with numbers, dates, version numbers, maybe even a fancy scripted gameplay video that will convince some that it's coming together.

But it's 2020. They missed over half a decade worth of deadlines, dates, promises. They are still selling content that will be created at a future date. They have still not cleared out of their roadmaps a lot of things that were already there several years ago. The community can still not play what they should have many quarters ago. At that point, what does it matter knowing that ship #324's interior are now complete? That the shooting module is near playable? That they finished filming all the scenes with Gillian Anderson? What does it all matter when you are still not getting closer to playing that stuff yourself?

Early access games exist. Various games that launched with a lot of missing features, with not enough depth or broken gameplay elements turned into fantastic games in the years (No Man's Sky, Sea of Thieves, Rainbow Six: Siege to mention a few). Even several feature-complete and function games got years' worth of great support (Fortnite, Minecraft, Elite Dangerous), turning them into something far greater. There's many ways to make a game bigger, bolder and more ambitious as time goes by. What accomunates all these games however is that, at one point, they launched. Maybe they got low ratings at first, maybe there was some naysaying, but when the project fulfilled its ambitions and potentials, people were on board.

Squadron 42 could absolutely launch like that, but it won't anytime soon. It won't anytime soon because they aren't finalizing anything, they're merely iterating, improving, reworking. They are not working with actual deadlines in mind. If they were, they'd be forced to make decision about what to cut, what to delay, and what to focus on making playable and functional now. But they aren't, because there's no rush. The money is coming in anyway, and this year they are breaking all records. The hype is higher than ever, so they are not in a rush to change their workflow.

Soon enough they'll officialize SQ42 not making Q3. They'll give a lengthy explanation as to why, about how they delayed the game but the final stretch will actually be quicker and more effective than ever. And threads like these will be made in 3, 6, 12 months as well because SQ42 isn't going to release for the foreseeable future. We'll share the same memes, the same outrage, the same considerations, but unless an investor comes in and turns the place around its head or a lawsuit fucks them up, nothing is going to change. Because the model they chose, the comunication they went for, the roadmap systems they built means they can always change plans, move back, iterate, improve, scrap. It's transparent, so it's fine.
This post hits like a bucket of ice cold water.
Thank you for taking the time - it was difficult to accurately express in words just how crazy this whole thing is.

I often think SC looks incredible, and wish Elite could have just a handful of the sandbox features it has.
But then after watching gameplay for more than 5 minutes it becomes apparent how difficult these things are to make, and how easily they break; how quickly that illusion is spoiled. I'm sure there are a lot of talented people who've been building out that world for years... I wonder at what level the reality of their situation is felt, and how motivated they are to "complete" it with the current model.
 

Deleted member 2254

user requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
21,467
This post hits like a bucket of ice cold water.
Thank you for taking the time - it was difficult to accurately express in words just how crazy this whole thing is.

I often think SC looks incredible, and wish Elite could have just a handful of the sandbox features it has.
But then after watching gameplay for more than 5 minutes it becomes apparent how difficult these things are to make, and how easily they break; how quickly that illusion is spoiled. I'm sure there are a lot of talented people who've been building out that world for years... I wonder at what level the reality of their situation is felt, and how motivated they are to "complete" it with the current model.

I don't have money in Star Citizen in any shape or form, but the game's ludicrous ambition is something I can't ignore. But on Era alone we've been through years of threads about how things are speeding up, about how clear the future for the game is, about how this is the final stretch now, about how SQ42 is entering beta any day now... and 3 years or so later, we are at the same spot.

Transparency can rapidly turn into excuses once you don't deliver what you've promised time after time. Imagine if your boss asked you to make a report about the latest sale you've made. A 2-week work, tops, considering you have a lot of other things to do inbetween. Every week then you send your boss a mail about the progress you're making. At first you started implementing other clients. By now all clients are showing up in this report. It also features an analysis of a decade's worth of analytics of the company. You were trying to include a 3D chart of the efficiency of each of your colleagues, but you had to scrap that eventually. Now you're working on a roadmap that should pinpoint exactly how far the entire project is.

Meanwhile your boss has been waiting for your report, a 2-week work, for years. You have not delivered that.
 

Iron Eddie

Banned
Nov 25, 2019
9,812
And hey, I could be totally wrong about it too. It won't be the first time.

Its been years, so I'm kinda over it all to be honest - yet I still see actual evidence of progress, so I wish them all the best.
The game looks impressive and it's a huge undertaking. My personal opinion is they should not be taking crowdfunding any longer until the game is released. Then you charge people money for a finished product. That's how things should normally work. Instead it looks like the crowdfunding keeps the project growing with no release date in sight.

It's pretty easy to be less accountable if you don't have any pressure. The crowdfunding gives them autonomy.
 

elyetis

Member
Oct 26, 2017
4,564
The future roadmap can be both a good thing because we get more tranparency, while at the same time being a very bad way to tackle people complain.

It's feel like a perfect example of both trying to kick the can ( possibly up to two month to finaly give the news people want, something which is likely to show something they have yet to announce : SQ42 beta delayed by at least another 6 month to 2021 ), and obfuscate/sidestep the answer ( the objective isn't to show the state of the game, but to be able to show how hard at work they currently are ).
 

xii_7

Alt Account
Banned
Aug 1, 2020
240
The game looks impressive and it's a huge undertaking. My personal opinion is they should not be taking crowdfunding any longer until the game is released. Then you charge people money for a finished product. That's how things should normally work. Instead it looks like the crowdfunding keeps the project growing with no release date in sight.

It's pretty easy to be less accountable if you don't have any pressure. The crowdfunding gives them autonomy.

The entire point of being crowd-funded was to be autonomous...

It's not a "normal" situation. It always has been a crowd-funding project, and everyone knew that going in. I don't think it's unethical to continue to take in money from a willing backer group who still want to support the project (for the record, I haven't spent any more money on it aside from the initial pledge way back when).

I don't think there would be a single corporate entity on Earth that would just stop taking in money - especially considering that their product is still under development...and with at least 450+ employees needing to be paid and supported.. I don't really get why you need them to stop making money to be a thing. Wouldn't that just be irresponsible?

And they are being held accountable. There's plenty of backers not happy with the lack of progress being shown..and their voices aren't exactly being ignored. It's easy to assume the worst I suppose.
 

Iron Eddie

Banned
Nov 25, 2019
9,812
The entire point of being crowd-funded was to be autonomous...

It's not a "normal" situation. It always has been a crowd-funding project, and everyone knew that going in. I don't think it's unethical to continue to take in money from a willing backer group who still want to support the project (for the record, I haven't spent any more money on it aside from the initial pledge way back when).

I don't think there would be a single corporate entity on Earth that would just stop taking in money - especially considering that their product is still under development...and with at least 450+ employees needing to be paid and supported.. I don't really get why you need them to stop making money to be a thing. Wouldn't that just be irresponsible?

And they are being held accountable. There's plenty of backers not happy with the lack of progress being shown..and their voices aren't exactly being ignored. It's easy to assume the worst I suppose.
Of course it's easy to assume the worst. They broke many promises and still have no release date in sight.
 

gozu

Member
Oct 27, 2017
10,410
America
After all the names I've been called over the years just for supporting a developing game.

I don't think that was the reason.

You have to understand that those people are slaves to such base things as arguments, evidence, logic and reason whereas you and I have something much, much better.

It's called faith.

So ignore all their desperate, vain attacks and namecalling. "You're naive! You're foolish! You're being conned!" they'll say, as they pretend they are looking out for you.

Right! AS! IF!

Let us LOL together in unison at those haters: Lol lol lol 😂
 

xii_7

Alt Account
Banned
Aug 1, 2020
240
I don't think that was the reason.

You have to understand that those people are slaves to such base things as arguments, evidence, logic and reason whereas you and I have something much, much better.

It's called faith.

So ignore all their desperate, vain attacks and namecalling. "You're naive! You're foolish! You're being conned!" they'll say, as they pretend they are looking out for you.

Right! AS! IF!

Let us LOL together in unison as those haters: Lol lol lol 😂

Cool. You're better than me on all levels, oh wise one.
 
Jul 17, 2018
480
The entire point of being crowd-funded was to be autonomous...

It's not a "normal" situation. It always has been a crowd-funding project, and everyone knew that going in. I don't think it's unethical to continue to take in money from a willing backer group who still want to support the project (for the record, I haven't spent any more money on it aside from the initial pledge way back when).

I don't think there would be a single corporate entity on Earth that would just stop taking in money - especially considering that their product is still under development...and with at least 450+ employees needing to be paid and supported.. I don't really get why you need them to stop making money to be a thing. Wouldn't that just be irresponsible?

And they are being held accountable. There's plenty of backers not happy with the lack of progress being shown..and their voices aren't exactly being ignored. It's easy to assume the worst I suppose.

They're not autonomous anymore, thry sold 50mil worth of the company last year.

And no, they're not being held accountable by any backers. The backers can't influence the pace or quality of the dev cycle in any way. They're not even informed on what is being worked upon and what isn't (vide: the roadmap debacle).
 

Iron Eddie

Banned
Nov 25, 2019
9,812
Are you like 100% sure that's what's happening?
It sure appears that way. Every year we get a delay.

This quote from Chris Roberts in January 2017 is also very interesting,
In January 2017, when asked about the financial situation of Star Citizen, Chris Roberts said: "I'm not worried, because even if no money came in, we would have sufficient funds to complete Squadron 42. The revenue from this could in-turn be used for the completion of Star Citizen."

That was over 3 years ago. So tell me, if this isn't happening when is the game coming out?
 

xii_7

Alt Account
Banned
Aug 1, 2020
240
They're not autonomous anymore, thry sold 50mil worth of the company last year.

And no, they're not being held accountable by any backers. The backers can't influence the pace or quality of the dev cycle in any way. They're not even informed on what is being worked upon and what isn't (vide: the roadmap debacle).

Yeah I'm not sure about that 50 mil. I thought that was for marketing?
So who "owns" them now? What capacity of influence do they have?

Backers are directly influencing the way the game is played. That's the point of the Issue Council? It's the entire point of the open development strategy - people find bugs, comment on how it plays etc.....and changes are made. The pace of development and quality of dev cycle....well isn't that intrinsic to the workings of the development and management teams and the development and management teams only? How would backers influence that exactly?

The "roadmap debacle" you speak of...well that's kinda irrelevant know.....but I know you don't care or believe it.

It sure appears that way. Every year we get a delay.

This quote from Chris Roberts in January 2017 is also very interesting,
In January 2017, when asked about the financial situation of Star Citizen, Chris Roberts said: "I'm not worried, because even if no money came in, we would have sufficient funds to complete Squadron 42. The revenue from this could in-turn be used for the completion of Star Citizen."

That was over 3 years ago. So tell me, if this isn't happening when is the game coming out?

I have no clue when the games are coming out. Years. Because they are still making them....again, slowly, but surely

There's no actual evidence that they are purposefully slowing development to reap in more of that sweet backer money, but it seems like you want to hold CR to task for what he's said anyway. Fair enough.


Edit: but fuck it. Yeah I'm probably being naive. I have no reason to trust any company, let alone defend them.

At the end of the day, all I really care about is if the games get released. And by the looks of things they will be....eventually.
If not, well then...I'm wrong and will eat CROW.
 
Last edited:
Jul 17, 2018
480
Yeah I'm not sure about that 50 mil. I thought that was for marketing?
So who "owns" them now? What capacity of influence do they have?

Backers are directly influencing the way the game is played. That's the point of the Issue Council? It's the entire point of the open development strategy - people find bugs, comment on how it plays etc.....and changes are made. The pace of development and quality of dev cycle....well isn't that intrinsic to the workings of the development and management teams and the development and management teams only? How would backers influence that exactly?

The "roadmap debacle" you speak of...well that's kinda irrelevant know.....but I know you don't care or believe it.



I have no clue when the games are coming out. Years. Because they are still making them....again, slowly, but surely

There's no actual evidence that they are purposefully slowing development to reap in more of that sweet backer money, but it seems like you want to hold CR to task for what he's said anyway. Fair enough.


Edit: but fuck it. Yeah I'm probably being naive. I have no reason to trust any company, let alone defend them.

At the end of the day, all I really care about is if the games get released. And by the looks of things they will be....eventually.
If not, well then...I'm wrong and will eat CROW.

According to Forbes, Clive Calder invested $46 mil. It was for marketing but I'd venture a guess he will have lots of say in the development seeing he gave them 1/6th of their entire budget. The "we're going completely independent" argument is null and void.

The Issue Council is mostly alpha/beta testing. People are getting paid to test games, here they pay (sometimes thousands) to test them. I'm talking about direct action - people can moan as much as they want but the money ticker is still going up and CI aren't really motivated to make any radical changes. As others have noted - this system basically encourages them to develop the game as long as they can and the backers can't really do anything about it.
 

Jegriva

Banned
Sep 23, 2019
5,519
Remember those who bought a new computer for this game 3 years ago.

I always forget about this game until threads like these pop up. That's an absurd amount of money
I remember the comments on some threads: "Do not buy Elite Dangerous (an actual game that shipped in 2014), wait for Star Citizen!".
 

chezzymann

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
4,042
The main thing that upsets me is how in depth all their ships are. It's ridiculous. I know it's where they get their money for the rest of the game but it would be so much cooler if all that effort put into dozens of ships was put into more parts of the games world.
 

Techno

Powered by Friendship™
The Fallen
Oct 27, 2017
6,437
Have they finished the bartender yet? I really need to know the roadmap for that.
 

Deleted member 5596

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
7,747
According to Forbes, Clive Calder invested $46 mil. It was for marketing but I'd venture a guess he will have lots of say in the development seeing he gave them 1/6th of their entire budget. The "we're going completely independent" argument is null and void.

The Issue Council is mostly alpha/beta testing. People are getting paid to test games, here they pay (sometimes thousands) to test them. I'm talking about direct action - people can moan as much as they want but the money ticker is still going up and CI aren't really motivated to make any radical changes. As others have noted - this system basically encourages them to develop the game as long as they can and the backers can't really do anything about it.

As long the game brings money I'd imagine Clive will be happy, so I don't think he cares much about the actual development side of things.
 

Iron Eddie

Banned
Nov 25, 2019
9,812
I have no clue when the games are coming out. Years. Because they are still making them....again, slowly, but surely

There's no actual evidence that they are purposefully slowing development to reap in more of that sweet backer money, but it seems like you want to hold CR to task for what he's said anyway. Fair enough.


Edit: but fuck it. Yeah I'm probably being naive. I have no reason to trust any company, let alone defend them.

At the end of the day, all I really care about is if the games get released. And by the looks of things they will be....eventually.
If not, well then...I'm wrong and will eat CROW.

You're right, you have no clue when it's coming because nobody is holding them accountable. That's the whole point. I'm not suggesting they are being lazy or doing nothing but it sure appears they have set themselves up financially to keep delaying the project and expanding on what was originally planned. You are also talking about the same company who were forced by law to offer refunds because some backers got sick of the lack of transparency such as a release date.

If you keep accepting funding what incentive is there to finish the product any time soon? That is the question you cannot answer because of this lack of transparency. Year after year is the same thing, delays. There comes a point where you have to just set a goal and reach it, not keep changing goals otherwise there will be constant delays.
 

Deleted member 5596

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
7,747
No, the money brought in so far is budget, not sales. These are incomparible. Unless you're ok with dudes getting interest from non refundable donations, which would be, uh, extremely problematic.

But they are 'selling' things, those aren't donations anymore, and donations in any case is basically free money to a private owned company. Having the 10% of the company means that they own part of the profits they make and whatever they don't spend in keep running the business is...well, you get it.

I'm not saying is ok, just that Cloud Imperium is not a bunch of people making games in their garage with their KS money. Is a full blown capitalist venture that is already generating income.
 
Last edited:

Vimto

Member
Oct 29, 2017
3,714
So if I was to buy the game now would I be able to do this straight of the bat?
youtu.be

Star Citizen: Planetary Landing & Sandworm Attack Gameplay (60fps) - CitizenCon 2016

Planetary exploration & sandworm encounter. Star Citizen 2016 Gameplay◢Twitter - http://twitter.com/MassiveNetwork◢Facebook - http://fb.me/MassiveNetwork◢Sub...

Looks stunning, even if 3 years old.
The worm is not in the game, not for another 5 years if this pace keeps up.

As for the rest im not sure.
 

Arebours

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,656
I don't have money in Star Citizen in any shape or form, but the game's ludicrous ambition is something I can't ignore. But on Era alone we've been through years of threads about how things are speeding up, about how clear the future for the game is, about how this is the final stretch now, about how SQ42 is entering beta any day now... and 3 years or so later, we are at the same spot.
To me the ambition of star citizen is like the ambition of going to home depot with a truckload of money and the idea to build a luxury mansion. But without a plan in hand. Only a mental image of Bruce Waynes estate or something. So one buys every other shiny thing to "try things out": all kinds of floor boards, faucets and power tools.

Ever since the first day they've shown their fancy graphics tech. That's the only thing people seem to be talking about. Super realistic rendering tech, 3d models crafted by artisans and whatnot. Big red flag. It's fucking backwards to make a game like that. It's like building a house by starting to work on the dining room Swarovski chandelier instead of the foundation. The only thing this approach guarantees is that every single time you go back to do some actually important work, the chandelier design will have to change. And since it's the most expensive piece in the house... well you do the math.
Sure if you are on game #3 in franchise x then you can do that because you have a foundation and most sequels are at best paint-jobs anyway. But for a brand new groundbreaking mega ambitious game?

It's not ambition it's hubris.
 
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Daneel_O

Member
Oct 28, 2017
294
There's no actual evidence that they are purposefully slowing development to reap in more of that sweet backer money, but it seems like you want to hold CR to task for what he's said anyway. Fair enough.

Of course they are not purposefully slowing development, but they are also not taking any action towards ending it, by not setting definite goals, allowing themselves to constantly rework and tune even core systems, spending not-trivial resources into non-gameplay features and content, and on and on and on they go...

They can get away with this because they revenue stream is ever-increasing even if they don't release a full game, while almost every other developer has to work towards a full product to reap some $$$. Basically any incentive to work no matter what for pushing out the game is void, and you cannot ignore this fact.

I also think part of CIG truly believes or believed that continuing to work on SC and SQ42 "until it's done" trying in good faith to make the best version ever of everything involved is the best approach.

The problem is, no matter how much effort you put into it, any technology or project you work on for almost a decade is bound to collapse if you are not willing to keep it into focus and take some hard decisions.

Technology gets outdated, people leave or lose motivation, any new idea pushes back or breaks another ten, and eventually people will stop waiting for quarterly patches with a fraction of what was envisioned a long time ago.

So if I was to buy the game now would I be able to do this straight of the bat?
youtu.be

Star Citizen: Planetary Landing & Sandworm Attack Gameplay (60fps) - CitizenCon 2016

Planetary exploration & sandworm encounter. Star Citizen 2016 Gameplay◢Twitter - http://twitter.com/MassiveNetwork◢Facebook - http://fb.me/MassiveNetwork◢Sub...

Looks stunning, even if 3 years old.

Then you have things like this video that paint a much shadier picture at least on the senior management at CIG.

As far as I know, apart from the planetary tech (which is actually impressive technology), most of that demo turned out to be a scripted set piece that is quite different from in game experience even at this point. Not to mention all the fancy new features that the guy in the video lists for the upcoming patches that are nowhere to be seen.
This is where I stop seeing good faith, because in hindsight, that video was a planned effort to deceive backers and the public on the status of the project, as they continue to do up to this moment with the whole SQ42 fiasco.

They are free to continue developing these games for as long as they need/want if enough people support them, but if they have to do so with false promises, fake demos and outright lies (not to mention all the predatory practices with their MTX business), I think everybody should start to draw a line and make them accountable.
 

bounchfx

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,673
Muricas
i really can't help but think there's going to be another game that starts, and ends, development quicker than SC and winds up being the same kind of game, with similar features, but is actually made and released. and then people will realize it was possible and roberts industries was simply milking their fans, because, well, it keeps working. It's insanely disrespectful but hey, people keep paying in.

i still stand by the fact that they should have made and released the original plan, without going hog and bloating it all, and then simply updated it over time or made sequels, at least then I could take it seriously. Instead it's constant feature creep, which anyone can tell you who has worked in game dev is nothing but pain and disappointment 99% of the time. Can't lie though, it's fun to look down this barrel of a game every so often then if just to see the discussion surrounding it. It's certainly unique.
 
Nov 8, 2017
6,334
Stockholm, Sweden
I backed this in the beginning when it was a game about space ships shooting each other.
Since then it turned into an FPS and now it seems to be some kind virtual product shopping experience, multi-currency confusion machine.
If I want to try and claw some money back is it best to try and sell my ship (hornet f7c LTI) or request a refund?

Nah, you won't be seen that money again, but rest assured that you contributed to making a janky suicidal looking virtual bartender.
 

Akira86

Member
Oct 25, 2017
19,600
I don't have any money in the game. I do find it interesting people who find amusement in the negative side of the drama. I'll put any energy towards hoping they put out a finished product that is even 75% of the way to where they want to go with it.
 

Carlius

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
3,000
Buenos Aires, Argentina
Some SC stans are having a normal one:

ASCC8vX.jpg


That last sentence, wow
beautiful.