Star Trek Discovery - Season 2 |OT| Exploration is logical

Dec 12, 2017
412
Like you said, Star Trek has the Tal Shiar and Obsidian Order as a classic sci-fi tool of using aliens as a mirror to humanity. What's more is that those organization benefit from the lack of details and obscurity from a narrative perspective. I don't see how a show that will need to go into detail about a human equivalent of those amoral organizations is appealing.
I think there's the potential for a compelling series which pushes those ideas even further. However, I'm not thrilled w/ the idea of it being in the same timeline as Disco, w/ evil-ish Michelle Yeoh

...I think I just desperately want more DS9-style Trek in general.
 
Oct 26, 2017
6,975
I'm kind of looking forward to the S31 stuff.

Even if all they are at this stage is like a S31 lite compared to what they eventually become in committing mass genocide of The Founders. More subversion, recon, misinformation and spying than outright mass murder to further maintain the Federations goals and ideals.
 
Oct 25, 2017
4,743
Toronto
I finally caught up on Season 1 in the past couple of weeks. I had very low expectations for it, but enjoyed it a lot, even if it was a bit more serious than what we're used to. (Plus, it was fun seeing a bit of local scenery in it.)

Caught the first episode of the new season, and I'm enjoying the slightly more relaxed tone. (Also, I look forward to seeing the episode I watched them film down at the Scarborough Bluffs.)
 
Oct 26, 2017
3,618
Austria
I kinda disliked E03. Too many introductions in one episode and some stuff is handled pretty poorly and fast to make drive the story forward instead of making it more interesting.
I also think the Klingons are totally not interesting in any way in this season.
 
Oct 27, 2017
1,161
Pennsylvania
I finally caught up on Season 1 in the past couple of weeks. I had very low expectations for it, but enjoyed it a lot, even if it was a bit more serious than what we're used to. (Plus, it was fun seeing a bit of local scenery in it.)

Caught the first episode of the new season, and I'm enjoying the slightly more relaxed tone. (Also, I look forward to seeing the episode I watched them film down at the Scarborough Bluffs.)
Glad you’re enjoying your time with the show so far. Welcome aboard! :)
 
Oct 25, 2017
2,572
Tilly was diabolical. She's supposed to be command material, not some blithering idiot who cannot articulate to her colleagues what an entity is trying to communicate to her.
If she had acted as go between between the science crew and the entity, by asking questions and relaying answers things could have been sorted much quicker. Or at least looked a little scientific/futuristic/star trek.

and then there's Amanda acting like like a school kid with a silly secret when telling Burnham about stealing Spock's medical records.

And then there's Ash/Voq having a cheeky secret communication with Michael - USING A 5'8" HOLOGRAM.

It's all so dumbed down.

Where are all the sci-fi stories that Roddenberry collected from writers over the years. Real sci-fi shorts that deserve the Trek treatment.
The important part is that Tilly is still a cadet. She still has a long way to go in her training.

As noted in a lot of her personal logs, she still suffers from anxiety... but like her superiors have seen, she performs amazingly well when she does get into the flow.

Also contrast her behavior to her mirror universe counterpart -- that should be enough to show the kind of character Prime Tilly is.
 
Oct 26, 2017
6,975
Was Section 31 referenced in the first episode of Discovery? Didn't someone mention black uniforms aboard Discovery?
it was in there somewhere. I recall Burnham noticing the black badges though at that point it may not have been clear to the writers what those black badges were supposed to be.
 
Oct 25, 2017
2,379
As someone who isn't really a fan of the OG Star Trek series. I appreciate what it was but was never able to get into it, and I thought the recent movie were a good bit of fun. Anyway, as one of those people I enjoy this show a decent amount!

Not surprising seeing the old school trek fans liking episode 2 but I liked 1 and 3 more. Reminds me of the fringe fans that wanted the more procedural stuff over the serialized drama. I thought they were straight loco.
 
Oct 25, 2017
1,120
Boston, MA
I kind of assumed that the black badges denoted Starfleet top-secret rank missions. Since Discovery and her sister ship were working on secret technology, yet plenty of people at the correct level of access knew about them.

In a sense, giving Starfleet a publicly acknowledged skunkworks that occasionally oversees a classified project is an excellent cover for Section 31. Most would think it paranoid to suggest there's an even more secret security level than what is already top-secret. Meanwhile the skunkworks provides Section 31 with a wide selection of potential recruits and valuable assets to snatch up.
 
Oct 25, 2017
2,968
Honestly one of the questions I've been curious about with regards to Section 31 is what their relationship with Starfleet Intelligence must be. Like, Sloan poses as a member of Starfleet Intelligence, but was that provided to him or merely assumed on his part, with SI proper none the wiser? Meanwhile in Enterprise, they seem to have information that Starfleet Intelligence itself does not, which suggests it does not either primarily or only source information from them, possibly due to such a conflict in methodology. Yet it's not like say, the division of the FBI and CIA in real life, or MI5 vs MI6, where one is domestically inclined and the other is foreign focused - both seem to deal in threats to the Federation in general while maintaining agents in foreign powers. And they've each provably kept a feed on threats that one would generally consider 'a big fucking deal'. So... what is the dividing line here?
 
Oct 25, 2017
2,017
DS9 seemed to hint that Starfleet Intelligence were aware of them in some fashion but seemed to choose to let them carry on and not ask questions.
 
Oct 25, 2017
7,544
I’m getting caught up on the season-Captain Pike is awesome. What a great choice. Hope he’s around for a long long time.
 
Oct 27, 2017
374
I finally caught up on Season 1 in the past couple of weeks. I had very low expectations for it, but enjoyed it a lot, even if it was a bit more serious than what we're used to. (Plus, it was fun seeing a bit of local scenery in it.)

Caught the first episode of the new season, and I'm enjoying the slightly more relaxed tone. (Also, I look forward to seeing the episode I watched them film down at the Scarborough Bluffs.)
Whoa, no idea they went there on loc. When?
 
Oct 25, 2017
812
The important part is that Tilly is still a cadet. She still has a long way to go in her training.
She's not a cadet anymore, she's an officer since last season's finale. She should have explained a little more what was going on, I can understand that she wanted that thing out of her but maybe talking to it would have been a good idea to find out what its agenda is.
 
Oct 25, 2017
1,149
The problem with that is when Tyler was shown the black badge he immediately said Section 31, not Starfleet Intelligence.
My broad guess is that at some point Section 31 is officially sanctioned by Starfleet and gets kicked out or the program gets terminated. At that point it becomes a pet project of rogue admirals and agents etc
 
Oct 27, 2017
421
The problem with that is when Tyler was shown the black badge he immediately said Section 31, not Starfleet Intelligence.
He could have known about it through the Klingon side. S31 worked with a high level Klingon General in Enterprise, and L'Rell is from the House of Mo'Kai (spies).
 
Oct 28, 2017
767
Re: Section 31

They are rogue agents in Starfleet intelligence, united by their politics more so than anything. Sort of like a "deep state" agent.
Enterprise revealed that their justification is based on Article 14, Section 31 of Starfleet's charter. That reference makes it clearer that the namesake 'Section 31' may not actually refer to a secret group supervised by the upper ranks, but rather just a collection of individuals who have gone rogue.
 
Oct 25, 2017
1,652
I assumed Ensign was like Private/Seaman/Airman and they weren't officers until they hit lieutenant, although star trek has very few ranks to being with.
There is an enlisted Corps in Starfleet. Chief O’Brien, for example, was an enlisted crewman. It just doesn’t come up all that often at all.

Ensign is in the officer ranks.
 
Oct 25, 2017
2,585
The Ocean
The Navy doesn't have all that many either, but I'd like to see ST put an effort into naming some just to see not everyone is an officer.

https://www.federalpay.org/military/navy/ranks
Chief O'Brien wasn't an officer on DS9. He was the head of Station engineering, but a lowly ensign had higher rank than he did. I mean, Burnham was a specialist in season one. That's your equivalent.
 
Oct 25, 2017
5,078
Re: Section 31

They are rogue agents in Starfleet intelligence, united by their politics more so than anything. Sort of like a "deep state" agent.
Enterprise revealed that their justification is based on Article 14, Section 31 of Starfleet's charter. That reference makes it clearer that the namesake 'Section 31' may not actually refer to a secret group supervised by the upper ranks, but rather just a collection of individuals who have gone rogue.
Section 31 is autonomous, not rogue. DS9 made it perfectly clear that the upper ranks knows it exists, but prefers to maintain plausible deniability. It's akin to the CIA's Directorate of Operations, tasked with covert actions. Some members may go rogue, but the group itself is quietly allowed to exist by Starfleet; where do you think they get all their stuff or the ability to come and go freely within the Federation?

Sisko brought it up to Starfleet Command and nothing happened. Section 31 has existed and will continue to exist.
 
Oct 25, 2017
2,968
So, funny thing, I only got around to properly watching Point of Light today, and given the discussion around Section 31 and all...

This almost makes me wonder if the organisation is potentially in some kind of decline by the point of DS9. Obviously part of this is going to be down to the relative limits of effects technology and budget, but well, compare this James Bond-esque level of equipped - special gadgets for subterfuge as much as combat, a specialised stealth ship with fucking folding warp nacelles - to later on, where a lot of what they do involves borrowing existing equipment and personnel for very unusual purposes. Like whoever writes the checks at Starfleet Command decides nah, they don't really need to give these guys their own ships if the current iteration of the Enterprise will most likely deal with anything that would require such.
 
Oct 26, 2017
6,975
So, funny thing, I only got around to properly watching Point of Light today, and given the discussion around Section 31 and all...

This almost makes me wonder if the organisation is potentially in some kind of decline by the point of DS9. Obviously part of this is going to be down to the relative limits of effects technology and budget, but well, compare this James Bond-esque level of equipped - special gadgets for subterfuge as much as combat, a specialised stealth ship with fucking folding warp nacelles - to later on, where a lot of what they do involves borrowing existing equipment and personnel for very unusual purposes. Like whoever writes the checks at Starfleet Command decides nah, they don't really need to give these guys their own ships if the current iteration of the Enterprise will most likely deal with anything that would require such.
I'd not look into the tech they have available too much, as you noted a bunch of that is just down to what can be done on a TV show today compared to 15-20 years ago.

I'll sure be interesting to see where the S31 stuff goes and to find out more about it. Was it always known but ignored or was it once more integral to the Federation before gradually being pushed underground more and more as time went on. Moving away from spec ops and direct infiltration of agents to more overarching goals like mass genocide as seen in DS9.
 
Oct 25, 2017
1,298
SoCal
I'd not look into the tech they have available too much, as you noted a bunch of that is just down to what can be done on a TV show today compared to 15-20 years ago.

I'll sure be interesting to see where the S31 stuff goes and to find out more about it. Was it always known but ignored or was it once more integral to the Federation before gradually being pushed underground more and more as time went on. Moving away from spec ops and direct infiltration of agents to more overarching goals like mass genocide as seen in DS9.
I think after Section 31 was introduced on DS9, people started reading it back into the past media, especially The Undiscovered Country, where not-Sisko's dad and not-Odo were supposedly members of S31 who were trying to torpedo the Federation-Klingon peace process. If that's the case, then maybe the Federation started taking a hard line against the organization, forcing it into hiding, even amongst Starfleet intelligence.
 
Oct 25, 2017
2,968
I think after Section 31 was introduced on DS9, people started reading it back into the past media, especially The Undiscovered Country, where not-Sisko's dad and not-Odo were supposedly members of S31 who were trying to torpedo the Federation-Klingon peace process. If that's the case, then maybe the Federation started taking a hard line against the organization, forcing it into hiding, even amongst Starfleet intelligence.
Man, that would be a particularly effective bit of canon welding if so. Like, that is precisely the sort of thing where one could expect S31's intentions to run counter to what the Federation President (and most of the Federation public) generally want, to the point that such an attempt made public would leave a lot of awkward questions about its future.
 
Oct 25, 2017
5,078
Man, that would be a particularly effective bit of canon welding if so. Like, that is precisely the sort of thing where one could expect S31's intentions to run counter to what the Federation President (and most of the Federation public) generally want, to the point that such an attempt made public would leave a lot of awkward questions about its future.
The novels retcon a whole bunch of stuff as Section 31 plots and plans. The Omega molecule from Voyager and the relocation that kicked off Insurrection. Admiral Cartwright from Stark Trek 4 was revealed as a Section 31 operative (meaning the sabotage of the Khitomer Conference would've retroactively been an S31 thing).

Basically, what folks who dislike S31 miss is that it also provides a ton of cover for the long-running "evil Admiral" trope of Star Trek. If the Federation is entirely on the up-and-up and a utopia, why are all these high-level officers going evil all the goddamn time?
 
Oct 25, 2017
2,968
The novels retcon a whole bunch of stuff as Section 31 plots and plans. The Omega molecule from Voyager and the relocation that kicked off Insurrection. Admiral Cartwright from Stark Trek 4 was revealed as a Section 31 operative (meaning the sabotage of the Khitomer Conference would've retroactively been an S31 thing).

Basically, what folks who dislike S31 miss is that it also provides a ton of cover for the long-running "evil Admiral" trope of Star Trek. If the Federation is entirely on the up-and-up and a utopia, why are all these high-level officers going evil all the goddamn time?
See, an important distinction there though is that such retcons serve the purpose that I feel Section 31 had as a narrative device originally - to be a criticism of security agencies that feel they have total freedom to do as they wish in defending the state, regardless of how amoral it may be (especially when backing up nominal utopias/democracies/whatever, yes). At risk of teetering over the line from 'necessary evil' into just straight up evil, which sadly to say is not that unrealistic, and not even unprecedented within DS9 generally, nevermind the franchise as a whole.

That said, if taken as an explanation for the evil Admiral thing, I can't help but imagine S31 may be a bit resources strapped compared to previous centuries because everybody that would sign a blank check keeps getting tried for treason.
"What do you mean Pressman didn't get the cloaking device back?!"
 
Oct 25, 2017
5,078
See, an important distinction there though is that such retcons serve the purpose that I feel Section 31 had as a narrative device originally - to be a criticism of security agencies that feel they have total freedom to do as they wish in defending the state, regardless of how amoral it may be (especially when backing up nominal utopias/democracies/whatever, yes). At risk of teetering over the line from 'necessary evil' into just straight up evil, which sadly to say is not that unrealistic, and not even unprecedented within DS9 generally, nevermind the franchise as a whole.

That said, if taken as an explanation for the evil Admiral thing, I can't help but imagine S31 may be a bit resources strapped compared to previous centuries because everybody that would sign a blank check keeps getting tried for treason.
"What do you mean Pressman didn't get the cloaking device back?!"
Yeah, I was partially joking with the evil Admiral thing, though... yeah, a good three or four are Section 31 retcons at this point.

The DS9 iteration was sort of the opposite end of the Maquis, sort of holding up a mirror to the Federation and going, "What does a utopia really mean?" Section 31 is "What does it take to keep it alive?" while the Maquis is "What if you want no part of it?" Which are always interesting questions, because we know for a fact that malcontents don't always give up because of diplomacy.
 
Oct 25, 2017
2,968
Yeah, I was partially joking with the evil Admiral thing, though... yeah, a good three or four are Section 31 retcons at this point.

The DS9 iteration was sort of the opposite end of the Maquis, sort of holding up a mirror to the Federation and going, "What does a utopia really mean?" Section 31 is "What does it take to keep it alive?" while the Maquis is "What if you want no part of it?" Which are always interesting questions, because we know for a fact that malcontents don't always give up because of diplomacy.
And otherwise, what are people prepared to do in its name? Toppling a foreign government (or a key official therein) to make it more favourable to your own is a pretty sketchy kind of 'necessary', but well, it's not really unfamiliar territory for the nation that produced this show.

In this regard, I do find how they were handled in Point of Light interesting. Because, well... While there is some extreme subterfuge involved, and their hiring criteria begs a lot of questions, their actual goal and methods aren't too objectionable. They literally save a baby, and then allow its parent a relative freedom in terms of deciding its fate. It's certainly something regular Starfleet officers couldn't have easily done, but it is rather decidedly a good thing (unless they reveal it grows up to be, I dunno, a new head of house Duras or whatever).
 
Oct 27, 2017
1,161
Pennsylvania
For those interested, here is a pretty nice breakdown of the Star Trek content currently in development over at CBS:

https://www.digitalspy.com/tv/ustv/a26164957/star-trek-universe-franchise-tv/

Unlike the troll videos on YouTube who are claiming that Discovery is a massive failure and that CBS may be about to can "All Trek" claiming they have inside sources, this article paints a different picture of the Star Trek situation in that CBS is fairly happy with Star Trek: Discovery and hopes that an expanded Trek universe will also expand the ratings for the current show.
 
Oct 25, 2017
2,810
If Disco suddenly became too expensive I think we'd get at least a final season with more personal, smaller stories than an out right cancellation but considering how much Star Trek CBS is putting into production I think Disco is doing fine, if not great.