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Volimar

volunteer forum janitor
Member
Oct 25, 2017
38,325
the other thing with section 31, higher ups in the fed knew about them in the ds9 era. the question is now when do they go super covert and disappear off the radar in the 23rd century. In ds9 iirc admiral ross implied he knew they exsisted but didn't say outright. the other notion that bothers me is with the L'rell arc the federation via s31 is basicly engaging in nation building something that doesnt feel very federation like, especally with the later fed vs klingon cold war of sorts in the post discovery/tos kirk era.


Voq knowing about them is the biggest sticking point for me. Okay maybe Captains know about them because they need to know. Okay maybe Discovery knows about them because they were also a super secret operation. But Voq. How would he know? In the short time that Ash was on Discovery? I don't buy that.
 
Oct 25, 2017
8,566
the other thing with section 31, higher ups in the fed knew about them in the ds9 era. the question is now when do they go super covert and disappear off the radar in the 23rd century. In ds9 iirc admiral ross implied he knew they exsisted but didn't say outright. the other notion that bothers me is with the L'rell arc the federation via s31 is basicly engaging in nation building something that doesnt feel very federation like, especally with the later fed vs klingon cold war of sorts in the post discovery/tos kirk era.
I know it's not federation yet but that's exactly what Starfleet ops was doing with the Klingons in Enterprise, they kidnapped Phlox and tried to hide it from Starfleet so they could help the Klingons avoid civil war because of the Augment stuff.

It's just weird that they're showing off their Section 31 comm badge to everyone and walking around where everyone can see them.

At this point I also assume the spinoff show will be fanservice about how they were behind the scenes at every famous event in Star Trek history in an attempt to redeem them... and maybe even cast the guy on DS9 as some SUPER secret rogue agent who was violating protocol. lol

I hope they don't do this, keep them on the darker side of gray. I don't want a redeemed Philippa, give us a reason why they got disbanded, hell make that the series final.
 

StallionDan

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
7,705
So apparently they actually have retcon the D7 out if S1 and it's now a Sech Class ship. Been this way for a few months at least.
 

golem

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,878
Voq knowing about them is the biggest sticking point for me. Okay maybe Captains know about them because they need to know. Okay maybe Discovery knows about them because they were also a super secret operation. But Voq. How would he know? In the short time that Ash was on Discovery? I don't buy that.
Eh with black badges being out in the open on at least the Discovery and her sister ship, it shows Section 31 was intent on making themselves distinct from normal Starfleet. Even if Discovery was sworn to secrecy regarding what was going on there, people will talk and rumors will spread especially about mysterious and eye catching symbology like the black badge. Also its shown at least some of Discovery's crew were scientists and essentially civilians before the war, they might not care as much about operational security as others. Ash could have easily heard about it through the rumor mill on his previous assignment.
 

Tukarrs

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,814
Voq knowing about them is the biggest sticking point for me. Okay maybe Captains know about them because they need to know. Okay maybe Discovery knows about them because they were also a super secret operation. But Voq. How would he know? In the short time that Ash was on Discovery? I don't buy that.

Voq could have found out via L'Rell. A high level Klingon General asked for S31 help with the Augment Virus during ENT and they assisted by providing Phlox.
 

Sephiroth503

Member
Oct 26, 2017
332
Great episode. Not going to lie, was on the edge of my seat for the end. Really like the visuals of a sinking ship too.

Anson Mount is fantastic, I hope CBS are taking note and will give his Enterprise its own show.
 

Entryhazard

One Winged Slayer
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
2,843
with the L'rell arc the federation via s31 is basically engaging in nation building something that doesn't feel very federation like,
Which is something the S31 did in more than one occasion, however it's possible that even when it was known that they do exist a lot of what they did might still have been kept secret even within the federation (as for example Pike might be much more disgusted if he knew what they actually do) and they just posed as espionage and information collection until their more egregious actions are going to get exposed resulting in the S31 getting "disbanded"
 

BossAttack

Member
Oct 27, 2017
42,949
I just knew this new Trek couldn't resist the temptation of S31 and in doing so have ruined them. The whole point of S31 is that they don't technically exist, they are a covert-ops part of the Federation that only the highest echelon even knows exist. And, they mostly operate independently of Starfleet. Now, they seem like some official organization that your regular Fleet Captain knows about and whose individuals can bark orders at Starfleet Captains.

Just stop.
 
Jan 29, 2018
9,387
I just knew this new Trek couldn't resist the temptation of S31 and in doing so have ruined them. The whole point of S31 is that they don't technically exist, they are a covert-ops part of the Federation that only the highest echelon even knows exist. And, they mostly operate independently of Starfleet. Now, they seem like some official organization that your regular Fleet Captain knows about and whose individuals can bark orders at Starfleet Captains.

Just stop.

I'll give them the benefit of the doubt for now. It's entirely possible that this season explains why S31 is driven further underground/disavowed.
 
Oct 25, 2017
8,566
I just knew this new Trek couldn't resist the temptation of S31 and in doing so have ruined them. The whole point of S31 is that they don't technically exist, they are a covert-ops part of the Federation that only the highest echelon even knows exist. And, they mostly operate independently of Starfleet. Now, they seem like some official organization that your regular Fleet Captain knows about and whose individuals can bark orders at Starfleet Captains.

Just stop.

They are part of the Starfleet charter though,that's where the name even comes from
 

BossAttack

Member
Oct 27, 2017
42,949
I'll give them the benefit of the doubt for now. It's entirely possible that this season explains why S31 is driven further underground/disavowed.

Nah, that still makes no sense.

They are part of the Starfleet charter though,that's where the name even comes from

I don't believe they are literally a part of the charter, it's likely some vague line within Section 31 of the Starfleet Charter that says "Starfleet will do what is necessary during times of need to protect the Federation." There isn't literally a part of the Starfleet Charter that recognizes a covert-black ops organization.

Outside of all the lore shit, Section 31 was only interesting in DS9 because they knew how to tow the line with such a concept. But, now everyone since then has been too attracted by the "covert" bullshit of S31 that they've forgotten how to write Star Trek.
 

JonnyDBrit

God and Anime
Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,015
Nah, that still makes no sense.



I don't believe they are literally a part of the charter, it's likely some vague line within Section 31 of the Starfleet Charter that says "Starfleet will do what is necessary during times of need to protect the Federation." There isn't literally a part of the Starfleet Charter that recognizes a covert-black ops organization.

Outside of all the lore shit, Section 31 was only interesting in DS9 because they knew how to tow the line with such a concept. But, now everyone since then has been too attracted by the "covert" bullshit of S31 that they've forgotten how to write Star Trek.

Or to put it another way, they use what's cited as 'Article 14, Section 31' to rationalise themselves, but it wasn't necessarily included specifically to legitimise them (though there is some speculation that the organisation, already in existence in some fashion, sought the addition of that section to gain legitimacy after the fact).

Have largely aired my noted issues with how people treat the concept, so largely in agreement on general sentiment, though still haven't got around to the most recent episode and thus will not qualify it in any regard as yet, positive or negative.
 
Oct 25, 2017
14,646
I'll give them the benefit of the doubt for now. It's entirely possible that this season explains why S31 is driven further underground/disavowed.

Easy to explain if they wanted to.

We've got a Terran Emperor already on her way to becoming the boss of the S31 ship she's on after being assigned to it a whole 5 minutes ago. It's easy to imagine that her machinations will continue and she may find herself in increasing positions of authority in the organization. It may be in her best interest to fly under the radar. Her empire is gone but she'll still find a powerful place for herself in this universe.

She may very well take the organization underground where she can operate more freely from then on as a sort of covert mob boss. The less Starfleet knows, the better.
 

JonnyDBrit

God and Anime
Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,015
Man, an episode like this makes me wonder when we're supposed to be past the point where things were uncomfortably expensive got the producers. Because the money is still onscreen.

Otherwise, I feel like this episode is pretty good in and of itself, but when taken in wider context demonstrates the shoe's current set of issues. The serialised focus means that, if characters aren't already included in the plot threads, it's harder to integrate them in. The first two episodes being relatively isolated because they hadn't picked up in hunting Spock gave them some room to either introduce or spotlight previously underdeveloped characters (albeit in minimal fashion), whereas by this point, it's harder to rationalise the relevancy of say, Airiam in affairs.

Also, while I have some misgivings still, I do think the usage of Section 31 was handled well. It does play into that notion discussed previously about how at this point in time, that aside of being more specifically equipped - loved Pike's reaction to the commbadge - they also are much more... Definitely Starfleet, for lack of a better word. There's no hesitance in helping out the Discovery - though yes, a priority of self-preservation - and they are clearly answerable to someone, both internally and externally. It does feel like something where their MO changes over time, or in this case was previously a lot better, than just the writers realising they could play with spy stuff.

Though there is clearly still an element of that, yes.
 
Oct 25, 2017
14,646
Man, an episode like this makes me wonder when we're supposed to be past the point where things were uncomfortably expensive got the producers. Because the money is still onscreen.
If I'm remembering correctly, the old showrunners got booted after episode 5 (this one). Then Kutzman took over.

So within the next couple episodes we'll see if they managed to keep the season feeling consistent after their departure. It's been going really well so far, fingers crossed it doesn't suddenly fall off a cliff next week. We're now entering Kurtzman's domain.
 

Palette Swap

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
11,201
I've watched the whole show over the past two weeks, and I'm all caught up. Honestly, I haven't found Star Trek this exciting since DS9 ended.

Season 1 really shifted gears for me with the mirror universe, which made me roll my eyes at first, and the show has been consistently great for me ever since.

I like where they're taking Section 31 so far, and having Georgiou in it makes a ton of sense. My only frustration right now is with the constant Spock blue balls. This OT should just be The Search for Spock at this point.
 

JonnyDBrit

God and Anime
Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,015
If I'm remembering correctly, the old showrunners got booted after episode 5 (this one). Then Kutzman took over.

So within the next couple episodes we'll see if they managed to keep the season feeling consistent after their departure. It's been going really well so far, fingers crossed it doesn't suddenly fall off a cliff next week. We're now entering Kurtzman's domain.

Gotcha, thanks.

I've watched the whole show over the past two weeks, and I'm all caught up. Honestly, I haven't found Star Trek this exciting since DS9 ended.

Season 1 really shifted gears for me with the mirror universe, which made me roll my eyes at first, and the show has been consistently great for me ever since.

I like where they're taking Section 31 so far, and having Georgiou in it makes a ton of sense. My only frustration right now is with the constant Spock blue balls. This OT should just be The Search for Spock at this point.

Funny that, considering the email I recently got from the Star Trek Newsletter...
VI2OIV4.jpg
 

Typhon

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,105
the other thing with section 31, higher ups in the fed knew about them in the ds9 era. the question is now when do they go super covert and disappear off the radar in the 23rd century. In ds9 iirc admiral ross implied he knew they exsisted but didn't say outright. the other notion that bothers me is with the L'rell arc the federation via s31 is basicly engaging in nation building something that doesnt feel very federation like, especally with the later fed vs klingon cold war of sorts in the post discovery/tos kirk era.

Is it really any different from what Kirk did with prewarp civilizations in TOS?

Errand of Mercy
A Private Little War
Friday's Child
 

Effect

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,945
Voq knowing about them is the biggest sticking point for me. Okay maybe Captains know about them because they need to know. Okay maybe Discovery knows about them because they were also a super secret operation. But Voq. How would he know? In the short time that Ash was on Discovery? I don't buy that.
Ash has both the original Tyler's and Voq's memories. Ash Tyler was a real person and they say that a few times in season 1. So it wasn't Voq pretending to be a starfleet officer the Ash persona is a copy of the real person that existed. So that original Ash could have known about Section 31 and as a result the current Ash would know.

Right now Ash Tyler that we know just as Voq's memories and knowledge. His personality is that of Ash. That was the whole issue toward the end of season 1 and why he was going crazy and ended up killing Culber. The two personalities were fighting for control and the Voq one was killed off so the Ash one could live.
 

MHWilliams

Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,473
I don't believe they are literally a part of the charter, it's likely some vague line within Section 31 of the Starfleet Charter that says "Starfleet will do what is necessary during times of need to protect the Federation." There isn't literally a part of the Starfleet Charter that recognizes a covert-black ops organization.

Outside of all the lore shit, Section 31 was only interesting in DS9 because they knew how to tow the line with such a concept. But, now everyone since then has been too attracted by the "covert" bullshit of S31 that they've forgotten how to write Star Trek.

Section 31 was in Enterprise, which takes place before Discovery. So the current version of them makes them out to be the Tal Shiar or Obsidian Order, a known unknown. (That last comparision was made in DS9 I believe.) Akin to CIA black sites and black projects in the real world.

But yes, most of that came post-DS9, so I guess your point still stands.
 

opalheart

Member
Apr 5, 2018
114
First time posting in the OT. The second season has been MUCH better than the first so far. I like the more situational episodes. And +1 for unburying your gays
 

Kschreck

Member
Oct 27, 2017
6,069
Pennsylvania
ComicBook has a decent writeup theorizing that (speculation but potential spoilers)
time travel could play a key role in Discovery at some point this season based on the mention of tachyon particles in episode 5. Will Discovery be transported to the far future heading into season 3? Will the story involve linking Picard to Discovery via a time travel story? Some Kelvin universe connection? Temporal Cold War?
Who knows but you can read the story here:

https://comicbook.com/startrek/2019...very-time-travel-red-angel-tachyon-particles/

Do you guys have any theories? What would you like to happen?
 

Deleted member 5028

User requested account closure
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Oct 25, 2017
9,724
ComicBook has a decent writeup theorizing that (speculation but potential spoilers)
time travel could play a key role in Discovery at some point this season based on the mention of tachyon particles in episode 5. Will Discovery be transported to the far future heading into season 3? Will the story involve linking Picard to Discovery via a time travel story? Some Kelvin universe connection? Temporal Cold War?
Who knows but you can read the story here:

https://comicbook.com/startrek/2019...very-time-travel-red-angel-tachyon-particles/

Do you guys have any theories? What would you like to happen?
Comicbook.com. Isn't that just a massive click bait machine?

My theory is the red angels are evolved Kelpians.
 

Quinton

Specialist at TheGamer / Reviewer at RPG Site
Member
Oct 25, 2017
17,255
Midgar, With Love
ComicBook has a decent writeup theorizing that (speculation but potential spoilers)
time travel could play a key role in Discovery at some point this season based on the mention of tachyon particles in episode 5. Will Discovery be transported to the far future heading into season 3? Will the story involve linking Picard to Discovery via a time travel story? Some Kelvin universe connection? Temporal Cold War?
Who knows but you can read the story here:

https://comicbook.com/startrek/2019...very-time-travel-red-angel-tachyon-particles/

Do you guys have any theories? What would you like to happen?

I've theorized that Discovery would eventually end up in the distant future ever since original creator Bryan Fuller answered an interview question about whether or not we would see characters like Data and Geordi on the show somehow, he cheekily replied with "Not at first, at least." (Or something along those lines.) Is it possible he was merely indicating we would see iconic characters in general, AKA Spock? Sure! But that was the moment I first blinked.

Add to that the distant-future Short Trek, my belief that the red angels could in some way connect to the Kelvinverse's red matter (hello, "Spock's destiny"), the fact that the Picard show will tie into the destruction of Romulus, and the creative team's common dedication to winks and nods and I can definitely see it happening.

EDIT: I forgot another big one: the whole melodrama question about why Spock never mentions Burnham again probably isn't the downer inability for them to reconnect that some are expecting. It could be that the Discovery crew getting catapulted intol the future becomes some top-secret 31-esque mission that requires everyone's families to go silent.
 
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Oct 25, 2017
8,566
I hope for no time-travel, no Kelvin connections and the red-angels aren't a race we currently know of, but I doubt I'll get even a single one of those requests, let alone all three.
 

Tukarrs

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,814
The mention of Tachyons, and the USS Discovery having orders ' to wait' in Calypso until the 33rd Century heavily implies that time travel will be involved.

There's very little story reasons for why the ship needs to be the Discovery in Calypso.
 
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DBT85

Resident Thread Mechanic
Member
Oct 26, 2017
16,252
The mention of Tachyons, and the USS Discovery having orders ' to wait' in Calypso until the 33rd Century heavily implies that time travel will be involved.

There's very little reasons story reasons for why the ship needs to be the Discovery in Calypso.
It's possible that the short has nothing to do with the season. It was an interesting episode even if it did never get a follow up.
 

Deleted member 5028

User requested account closure
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Oct 25, 2017
9,724
It's possible that the short has nothing to do with the season. It was an interesting episode even if it did never get a follow up.
Thematically they might be on to something.
Tilly's short Trek has her interact with an alien species alone. You could draw parallels to May's storyline.
We will be following up on Saru's episode this week.
There wasn't any announcement that Mudd will return, but you can't rule that out somewhere down the line.
This could mean that Discovery and Calypso will come into play at some point.
 

Kschreck

Member
Oct 27, 2017
6,069
Pennsylvania
The mention of Tachyons, and the USS Discovery having orders ' to wait' in Calypso until the 33rd Century heavily implies that time travel will be involved.

There's very little reasons story reasons for why the ship needs to be the Discovery in Calypso.

Holy shit, I forgot all about this and they did say the Shorts linked up to this season... 😮
 

Deleted member 5028

User requested account closure
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Oct 25, 2017
9,724
I've theorized that Discovery would eventually end up in the distant future ever since original creator Bryan Fuller answered an interview question about whether or not we would see characters like Data and Geordi on the show somehow, he cheekily replied with "Not at first, at least." (Or something along those lines.) Is it possible he was merely indicating we would see iconic characters in general, AKA Spock? Sure! But that was the moment I first blinked.

Add to that the distant-future Short Trek, my belief that the red angels could in some way connect to the Kelvinverse's red matter (hello, "Spock's destiny"), the fact that the Picard show will tie into the destruction of Romulus, and the creative team's common dedication to winks and nods and I can definitely see it happening.

EDIT: I forgot another big one: the whole melodrama question about why Spock never mentions Burnham again probably isn't the downer inability for them to reconnect that some are expecting. It could be that the Discovery crew getting catapulted intolerance the future becomes some top-secret 31-esque mission that requires everyone's families to go silent.
And possibly to this. We always wondered why Spock would go so far to be court-martialled for Pike in his final TOS appearance. I guess it's loyalty to his old captain for going so far to save him. Starfleet is a promise after all. Even then, Spock didn't break and tell all.
 

Kyberpunk

Member
Oct 28, 2017
127
I was expecting the mid-Season 1 twist to be that Discovery had jumped to the 24th/25th Century, before I found out they had gone to the Mirror Universe. So I am 100% on board with the idea of time-travel and Calypso coming into play. Especially since Season 2 so far is doing a good job of wrapping up any plot threads that would tether the series to the 23rd Century (sending Georgiou and Ash off to Section 31, wrapping up the Klingon War, resolving Burnham's issues with Sarek and now Spock...)

Picture the Season 2 finale: As a result of the Red Angel tachyon stuff, the Discovery crew get zapped into the far future. Section 31 is able to put safeguards in place to ensure they return safely - such as instructing the ship's computer to wait at the same exact coordinates for 1000 years, until one day, the Discovery crew reappear on board... Cue Season 3.
 

DBT85

Resident Thread Mechanic
Member
Oct 26, 2017
16,252
Disco season 3 in the 33rd Century would mean anything set between Nemisis and then would be a prequel. Do it.
 

Skyfireblaze

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,257
One of the 4 Short Treks that you can only watch legally if you live in the US, because reasons.

Disco is adrift in space for a thousand years upgrading herself and comes across a stranger in need of assistance.
Calypso is available on Netflix abroad too
Theyre on netflix intl now under trailers
I thought the short treks were out on Netflix?

Edit: well beaten
Well that's a dumb place to put them isn't it. When did they get added?

Not that I hadn't seen them anyway.

The more you know, thanks! Can I watch them all right now mid-season?
 

golem

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,878
Well that's a dumb place to put them isn't it. When did they get added?

Not that I hadn't seen them anyway.
I think right before Season 2 started. Yeah it was dumb but im assuming there was some kind of contractual issue around them. Hopefully it works smoother overseas for the next batch of Short Treks
 

Skyfireblaze

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,257
Wow Calypso was really trippy in a good way.

I hope Craft or whatever his name is made it home, the whole story was really touching and it was crazy to see the Discovery with a Andromeda-like AI named Sora. I really want to know what happened to her.
 

DBT85

Resident Thread Mechanic
Member
Oct 26, 2017
16,252
To the point in 100 years nobody even knows they ever existed? Like I said, it like us forgetting the SS ever existed. Not gonna happen.
Do we know who actually knows about them at this point? A crew on a highly classified ship, an admiral and now Pike who seemed a little bemused by their existence.

I assume at this point you're just hate watching? lol