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Star Trek Franchise |OT| To Boldly Go.....

Jan 29, 2018
2,204
Deviating from the the "All Good Things..." timeline, we find that the doctor that Picard married and then divorced post-Nemesis was actually Pulaski.
 

StallionDan

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,516
Command makes no sense for the character as seen on DS9.
Her character on DS9 is young and still finding herself. She believed being a councillor was the right thing as that is what Ezri trained for. But she is a Dax, and being forced to take command during a Defiant mission made her realise she had more to offer as Ezri Dax than just Ezri.

So she transferred to command and was stationed on the Avatine, then when her superiors died during a Borg attack she took command and was made acting Captain, later being fully given the position.
 

fuchsdh

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
4,598
Her character on DS9 is young and still finding herself. She believed being a councillor was the right thing as that is what Ezri trained for. But she is a Dax, and being forced to take command during a Defiant mission made her realise she had more to offer as Ezri Dax than just Ezri.

So she transferred to command and was stationed on the Avatine, then when her superiors died during a Borg attack she took command and was made acting Captain, later being fully given the position.
Eh, still. Having every character go into command feels like nonsense practically and also intimates that anything else is worthless as a career path.
 

butalala

Member
Nov 24, 2017
930
Yeah, it's seriously silly. I haven't read the books, but it feels like there was someone that really crushed on Nicole Boer (which is understandable) and decided to move her character to a perceived cooler role on a super ship with super abilities. It feels like the kind of storyline I'd come up with my Lego figures when I was a kid.
 

StallionDan

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,516
Troi took up command training in TNG, the Admiral from STD was a councillor. Why it an issue Ezri did the same, especially given Dax's experience.
 

chrominance

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,410

Cheerilee

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,950
That was basically the plot of a TNG episode. lol
Troi took up command training in TNG, the Admiral from STD was a councillor. Why it an issue Ezri did the same, especially given Dax's experience.
Troi was a counselor who held an honorary, symbolic sort of rank. During a crisis, she was briefly put in charge, and she began to realize that she was ill-equipped for the authority she had been given by that rank. About a year later, Captain Jellico gave her shit for wearing casual clothes while on duty. Maybe Captain Picard doesn't care if she disrespects her position, but Captain Jellico does care, so he ordered her to wear a uniform. She decided to continue wearing the uniform even after he left, because she agreed with his negative assessment of her casual attitude, and decided to start working on a change. Another year later, and she's taken some command training and secured herself a non-symbolic promotion, proving that her rank has now been earned, and increasing her usefulness among her crewmates.

Curzon Dax was a diplomat. Jadzia Dax was a scientist (and a first officer, and a sometimes Captain). Having a symbiote doesn't make a Trill a copy of the previous Trill, it boosts the stats of the host and gives them access to a lot more tools. Their lives are pretty much supposed to be unique, so as to add richness and diversity to the symbiote. Curzon and Jadzia were exceptional people before they were ever joined (as a way to maximize efficiency). Ezri was a common nobody who was never supposed to merit a joining. Her lack of exceptionalism is what makes her unique among Dax hosts, and provides the symbiote with a fresh new perspective. Ezri Dax chose to go into counseling, to try and help individual people who were going through difficult times, like she was. Theoretically, the Dax symbiote should be helping her to become an amazing counselor.

It seems like the opposite of Ezri's character arc to have her fall into a Troi-like situation where she is forced to take command, only to realize that Jadzia was a skilled Captain, and then to decide that counseling is for losers, it's better for her to lean entirely on her inherited symbiote experiences and become a Starship Captain and go pew pew with the lasers and shoot Borg, because that helps way more people than the puny 1:1 approach that Ezri was taking towards helping individual people and making the world a slightly better place.
 

firehawk12

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,080
Actually, I was thinking of the Q episode where Picard sees himself as a failure for not taking command and ending up as an unambitious blue shirt Ensign. lol

I never thought of it, but it does seem like getting into management is the default path for any Starfleet officer. Which I suppose explains why there are still non-commissioned officers, even though O'Brien us the only one.
 

StallionDan

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,516
I obviously gave a shorthand version but there are entire books about Ezri's struggle with what she wants to be and why.

Ezri Tigan never thought she would be good in command, even after joining she still didn't. But she wanted to help people which is why she became a councillor which was Ezri's plan. When DS9 ends it basically there after she stops trying be Jadzia.

But Ezri Dax isn't Ezri Tigan, and the Dax experiences along with being put in situations that forced her to command made her realise she could help way more people that way, in command as Ezri Dax without trying to be Jadzia.
 

fuchsdh

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
4,598
Actually, I was thinking of the Q episode where Picard sees himself as a failure for not taking command and ending up as an unambitious blue shirt Ensign. lol

I never thought of it, but it does seem like getting into management is the default path for any Starfleet officer. Which I suppose explains why there are still non-commissioned officers, even though O'Brien us the only one.
But that works because we know Picard. You sub in Kirk or Janeway or Sisko it’d be much the same, if shaded a bit differently.

One of my disappointments with Discovery is it initially promised a more lower decks approach to a series but it really just turned into the same business as usual, except with more anonymous bridge crew members.
 

firehawk12

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,080
They also say Riker is a failure for wanting to stay on the Enterprise for far too long though. There seems to be a natural progression to Captain, regardless of your spec, unless you choose to either derail your career in some way and don’t want it or you simply are incapable.
 

Lagamorph

Member
Oct 26, 2017
4,596
But that works because we know Picard. You sub in Kirk or Janeway or Sisko it’d be much the same, if shaded a bit differently.

One of my disappointments with Discovery is it initially promised a more lower decks approach to a series but it really just turned into the same business as usual, except with more anonymous bridge crew members.
There are many ways to describe Discovery. "Business as usual" for Star Trek is absolutely not one of them.
 
Oct 25, 2017
4,275
Yeah seems like Captain or one of the top scientist in whatever field you're in are the main goals in Star Trek. Anything else is basically grunt work almost.
 

butalala

Member
Nov 24, 2017
930
I think the glorification of the captain's chair comes down to Kirk's demotion to captain in The Voyage Home and then his message to Picard in Generations about "leaving the chair."

One of my disappointments with Discovery is it initially promised a more lower decks approach to a series but it really just turned into the same business as usual, except with more anonymous bridge crew members.
I thought the thing they said about disco was that the main character would not be the captain, which is something they've held to so far. Michael is the Science officer or something, isn't she?
 

chrominance

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,410
I think the glorification of the captain's chair comes down to Kirk's demotion to captain in The Voyage Home and then his message to Picard in Generations about "leaving the chair."



I thought the thing they said about disco was that the main character would not be the captain, which is something they've held to so far. Michael is the Science officer or something, isn't she?
Weird to say, but... I'm not totally sure anymore. I think when the show was first pitched, she was supposed to be the first officer, no? She definitely was first officer on the Shenzhou, but by the time she got onto Discovery her status was basically "criminal." Saru was first officer for that season, so I think she was Science, but then Saru got the promotion in season 2 but ALSO shared the Captain's chair with Pike (anything involving the Red Angels, Pike's in charge; otherwise it's Saru's ship), so I don't know who was first officer at that point, especially after things go off the rails later in the season.

To be honest, I don't think the show really cares who does what. The focus has never really been on where people sit in the ship's command hierarchy.
 
Oct 25, 2017
4,275
Yeah Tilly starts as an ensign but was basically their chief engineer because I don't think they ever showed anyone in engineering above her.

Edit: Actually Reno became the chief engineer when she joined the crew, so maybe they didn't have one before then lol
 

butalala

Member
Nov 24, 2017
930
It seemed more like Stamets was the defacto Chief of enginnering, since he was the master of the spore drive.
 
Oct 25, 2017
4,275
He's listed as Specialist/Astromycologist, remember disco had some insane amount of science experiments going on at the same time, he was just the leader of the spore drive experiments, maybe they don't do traditional stations like other ships.
 

Poodlestrike

It's salt.
Moderator
Oct 25, 2017
6,075
Honestly, the pressure towards command and Captaincy is sort of a messy bit of fallout due to Starfleet's dual nature as a peaceful science/exploration organization and a navy. Historically, especially in anglosphere fiction, officers who are doing well are expected to advance, and past a certain point the only way to advance any more is to take command of a ship, and then move up to a flag position. This kind of clashes with Starfleet's ostensibly less hierarchical setup, with different specialties that don't necessarily imply leadership roles. Viewed through that lens, Picard still being an Ensign after however many years shouldn't be at all shameful - he's a Science specialist, why would he need to advance? But looking at things from a naval perspective, yeah, still being an Ensign for that long is unquestionably a failure.
 
Oct 25, 2017
4,275
I wouldn't mind a brief cameo or some background mention of Kim being some highly decorated Captain or Vice Admiral but would be hilarious if he was only like lieutenant jr grade or something lol
 

Man God

Member
Oct 25, 2017
22,648
Star Trek novels are bad, by and large. A lot of fan wankery for favorite characters and new super duper ships.
 

fuchsdh

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
4,598
Hope springe eternal for the youthful Ensign Kim.

(real talk, most of my favorite Voyager episodes were Harry ones. Dude got screwed soooo bad.)
O'Brien and Kim can fight it out for most put-upon main character. At least O'Brien got a promotion and major responsibilities.
Star Trek novels are bad, by and large. A lot of fan wankery for favorite characters and new super duper ships.
Sometimes it's the *good* wankery, though. Diane Duane did some great mary sue-lite stuff with Dreadnought! and Battlestations! that I quite enjoyed. Non-canon novels are the place for that, rather than the shows, after all.
 

Man God

Member
Oct 25, 2017
22,648
Kim gets scolded like a dog for shit that anyone else would get away with.

Worf is also very put upon but usually its for a good reason, like he just killed a foreign dignitary or maybe blew up a ship of innocent civilians or got a spy killed because of his sort of ex-wife.
 

firehawk12

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,080
I dunno, O'Brien prolly wishes sometimes he wasn't married to Keiko.

The show did a terrible job of ever showing their relationship on a healthy level. It's kind of bizarre considering how much work the rest of the cast's relationships got.
That's probably because Chao was a guest star. He's basically a bachelor for the entire run of the show. lol
 

butalala

Member
Nov 24, 2017
930
I heard that Keiko becomes the captain of an exo-botany ship with experimental organic plant-based computer system and forested interior in the one of the novels.
 

chrominance

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,410
Hope springe eternal for the youthful Ensign Kim.

(real talk, most of my favorite Voyager episodes were Harry ones. Dude got screwed soooo bad.)
Timeless is one of my favourite Voyager episodes, and tbh I've always liked the multiple iterations of old, grizzled Harry Kim. It was just the original recipe that was bland and too earnest by half.
 

Poodlestrike

It's salt.
Moderator
Oct 25, 2017
6,075
Yeah, Keiko and O'Brien were... not great together, lol.
I heard that Keiko becomes the captain of an exo-botany ship with experimental organic plant-based computer system and forested interior in the one of the novels.
That tracks.
Timeless is one of my favourite Voyager episodes, and tbh I've always liked the multiple iterations of old, grizzled Harry Kim. It was just the original recipe that was bland and too earnest by half.
He got a little edge on him later, even outside of timeline shenanigans. At the very least he got better at shade.
 

fuchsdh

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
4,598
Yeah, Keiko and O'Brien were... not great together, lol.

That tracks.

He got a little edge on him later, even outside of timeline shenanigans. At the very least he got better at shade.
Yep.

His misadventures with women aside, they do a good job of giving most everyone on the show arcs. Torres comes to terms with her heritage, Paris grows up, Harry grows into himself, and of course the Doctor and Seven have their much more fronted arcs. Even Neelix got a good sendoff. Really the only one who doesn't is Chakotay.

I think those arcs would have stuck a lot better in people's minds if "Endgame" actually had a denouement. Strip out 12 minutes of Borgy nonsense and give people a chance to appreciate coming home.
 
Nov 2, 2017
412
Troi was a counselor who held an honorary, symbolic sort of rank. During a crisis, she was briefly put in charge, and she began to realize that she was ill-equipped for the authority she had been given by that rank.
I mean, she's a Starfleet Academy graduate with the rank of Lieutenant Commander through the majority of Next Gen. Her rank was never honorary or symbolic.