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Star Trek Franchise |OT| To Boldly Go.....

Oct 25, 2017
1,958
Okay, so I've always been a pretty big Star Trek fan... Liked the OS, most of the movies (baring V, Nemesis, and Into Darkness), and TNG is one of my all time favorite shows.

Couldn't get into DS9 when it originally aired, but honestly didn't care too much to try. I didn't care for the concept at the time. Yes, I was one of those that was like, "What? Just a space station? That's not Trek." Over the years though, I've picked a few episodes through reruns here and there, thought it was okay I guess, but again, not a fair shake.

Anyway, FINALLY got around to giving the series a proper run-through, and having just finished season 2... holy shit was I mistaken. This is some good shit. I feel like like there's even a bit more consistency at the same point in time comparing TNG.
Basically how it went for me as well. My only issue with DS9 is Avery Brooks acting but just have to let that go so I can enjoy the rest of it lol.
 
Oct 25, 2017
2,018
Okay, so I've always been a pretty big Star Trek fan... Liked the OS, most of the movies (baring V, Nemesis, and Into Darkness), and TNG is one of my all time favorite shows.

Couldn't get into DS9 when it originally aired, but honestly didn't care too much to try. I didn't care for the concept at the time. Yes, I was one of those that was like, "What? Just a space station? That's not Trek." Over the years though, I've picked a few episodes through reruns here and there, thought it was okay I guess, but again, not a fair shake.

Anyway, FINALLY got around to giving the series a proper run-through, and having just finished season 2... holy shit was I mistaken. This is some good shit. I feel like like there's even a bit more consistency at the same point in time comparing TNG.
DS9 only gets better after season 2 as well.
 
Oct 27, 2017
89
Basically how it went for me as well. My only issue with DS9 is Avery Brooks acting but just have to let that go so I can enjoy the rest of it lol.
Avery Brooks takes a while to get used to.
I never really got used to him, just learnt to put up with his acting I think. Losing the hair and growing the beard helped though lol.
Yeah, his acting... it's an acquired taste for sure. I started out not liking it at all, but I've grown more than accustomed to it, now I love it.

DS9 only gets better after season 2 as well.
I've heard this elsewhere, so that's awesome.
 
Oct 28, 2017
2,777
Missouri
I thought the first season of Voyager was actually pretty good. It definitely could have been more serialized but that just wasn't what television was like at the time (plus it eventually lead to Battlestar Galactica so we got best of both worlds). Faces and Jetrel were both good episodes.
What season has that stupid hopscotch game?
This was by far the worst episode of Deep Space Nine and easily one of the worst episodes in the franchise. Yuck. Luckily nothing else in DS9 really comes as bad as that one but yeesh.
 
Oct 25, 2017
3,089
I thought the first season of Voyager was actually pretty good. It definitely could have been more serialized but that just wasn't what television was like at the time (plus it eventually lead to Battlestar Galactica so we got best of both worlds). Faces and Jetrel were both good episodes.

This was by far the worst episode of Deep Space Nine and easily one of the worst episodes in the franchise. Yuck. Luckily nothing else in DS9 really comes as bad as that one but yeesh.
S1 TNG is consistently cringe. VOY has the lizard mating episode and ENT has the ep where Malcom, Archer, and Yoshi all turn into bullfrogs.
 
Oct 25, 2017
4,941
Depends how you think about the transporter. Some of us think the death rate is 100% :P
i know this is old, but nope

it can't be complete destruction on one end and then just making a new person on the other side, because we've seen people have experiences while they're inside the transporter beam

one of the things I always appreciated about Enterprise was that they didn't do the bullshit future sports

it was just like "yeah we cleared out some space in the cargo bay so we're going to play some basketball"
 

fuchsdh

Banned
Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,066
i know this is old, but nope

it can't be complete destruction on one end and then just making a new person on the other side, because we've seen people have experiences while they're inside the transporter beam


one of the things I always appreciated about Enterprise was that they didn't do the bullshit future sports

it was just like "yeah we cleared out some space in the cargo bay so we're going to play some basketball"
Eh, I like the future sports stuff, it's just the reality that you'd have to put some serious time and/or budget into making it work.

Unless you actually have the ability to make parrises squares look dangerous and exciting, it's better off just referenced.

(And the ambojitsu match mostly looks dumb as hell because the fight choreography is terrible. Why would you swing your weapon like a mad man, making you easy to knock off balance and leaving yourself wide open to attack?)

Voyager and DS9 did a good job with the small-scale board games stuff (tongo, kal-toh, kadis-kot.)
 
Oct 25, 2017
1,169
i know this is old, but nope

it can't be complete destruction on one end and then just making a new person on the other side, because we've seen people have experiences while they're inside the transporter beam
The you that dies gets to experience total molecular deconstruction. The new you that is created, absolutely indistinguishable from the original, is created with "false" memories of the experience of being deconstructed, followed by the genuine experience of molecular construction. The process appears to be contiguous, from the perspective of the copy, because the absolute perfection of the copy makes it impossible for the copy to perceive it's own status as a copy.

"Experiences while inside the transporter beam" don't counter that theory, because we can't say exactly when the original dies and when the copy is created. Is that "transitional experience" experienced by one, or the other? Or was it split halfway between the two of them. Or is it the experience of a third entity (some sort of energy being that was briefly born and then killed for the sake of this suicide box)? All we know is that from the copy's perspective it was one straight-line consistent and unbroken experience, because the copy is unable to think it was anything but one straight-line consistent and unbroken experience.

The guy who invented the transporter said that his biggest hurdle was getting people to stop asking this "stupid" question. He didn't say that he answered this deeply philosophical question about the nature of existence. He expressed his obvious disdain for it (because it was an obstacle to his work), and then said that he somehow managed to stop people from asking these kinds of questions.
 
Oct 25, 2017
4,941
The you that dies gets to experience total molecular deconstruction. The new you that is created, absolutely indistinguishable from the original, is created with "false" memories of the experience of being deconstructed, followed by the genuine experience of molecular construction. The process appears to be contiguous, from the perspective of the copy, because the absolute perfection of the copy makes it impossible for the copy to perceive it's own status as a copy.

"Experiences while inside the transporter beam" don't counter that theory, because we can't say exactly when the original dies and when the copy is created. Is that "transitional experience" experienced by one, or the other? Or was it split halfway between the two of them. Or is it the experience of a third entity (some sort of energy being that was briefly born and then killed for the sake of this suicide box)? All we know is that from the copy's perspective it was one straight-line consistent and unbroken experience, because the copy is unable to think it was anything but one straight-line consistent and unbroken experience.
this seems like an awful lot of hoops to jump through just to claim "BUT WHAT IF THE TRANSPORTER MAKES YOU DIE, THOUGH"

there's literally nothing in any of the shows to support any of that, and quite a bit that contradicts it
 
Oct 27, 2017
5,084
this seems like an awful lot of hoops to jump through just to claim "BUT WHAT IF THE TRANSPORTER MAKES YOU DIE, THOUGH"

there's literally nothing in any of the shows to support any of that, and quite a bit that contradicts it
It’s the logical conclusion when thinking about how a transporter would work, but you’re right - the show suggests there is matter transfer, not just pattern reconstruction. The you that appears is the one that left as far as Trek is concerned.
 
Oct 25, 2017
1,169
this seems like an awful lot of hoops to jump through just to claim "BUT WHAT IF THE TRANSPORTER MAKES YOU DIE, THOUGH"

there's literally nothing in any of the shows to support any of that, and quite a bit that contradicts it
It's a philosophical question about the nature of a device that Star Trek routinely uses.

Or at least it was, until Enterprise clumsily handwaved it away, because Star Trek isn't science fiction and doesn't want audiences to think about difficult philosophical questions. More pew pew lasers, please.


Edit:
https://arstechnica.com/gaming/2017/09/is-beaming-down-in-star-trek-a-death-sentence/

Science fiction author David Brin acknowledged the problem in his sole Star Trek work, a Next Generation graphic novel titled Forgiveness. There, he introduces a 21st Century scientist who invents the transporter, Colin Blakeney. Blakeney faces fear and hatred from groups who believe that once a person steps through the transporter, the result is a soulless copy. At one point, the scientist accidentally beams himself into space, where he rematerializes 300 years later aboard the Enterprise. There, he tells Dr. Crusher what he has now learned.

“The transporter doesn’t just send information on how to build a copy of you," Blakeney concludes. "It sends you… soul and all.”

“Of course it does!” Crusher responds. “Do you think we could ever step into the thing, if we weren’t sure of that?”
Yay, post-21st century science has proven the existence of the Human soul, and Star Trek transporters are 100% soul-approved!
 
Last edited:

fuchsdh

Banned
Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,066
I always find the argument kind of irrelevant. We would miserably take flights with standing room only if it was cheap enough. If transporters existed and they were as safe as they are in the franchise the ethical concerns would drop by the wayside pretty quickly with people realizing how much it would cut on commute and travel times.
 
Oct 25, 2017
1,958
Just rewatching TNG - The Drumhead again. Great episode and I find that final trial scene so satisfying where Picard manages to completely break the Admiral just using words.
 
Oct 25, 2017
2,604
So...no word on Pine and Hemsworth signing up again huh? Are the movies still moving forward in production?

I found this:
http://runpee.com/star-trek-4-movie-news-updates/

Here’s some Star Trek Movie News and Speculation, for your “continuing mission” pleasure:

  • Chris Pine reported to Variety that he’s willing to reprise his character if salary talks reopen. (He’s also going to continue his role in the DC universe, so it’s not like he’s begging for work.)
  • At a Calgary Expo this weekend, Jennifer Morrison (James Kirk’s mother in the 2009 film), she interrupted panel moderator Garret Wang (Harry Kim from Star Trek: Voyager) to say George Kirk’s demise should be considered a “supposed death”. Hmmm. So maybe don’t count Hemsworth’s participation out just yet either. We assumed that Kirk Sr. would appear via flashback or time travel trickery, but in movie land, death is a relative thing.
  • Also, Morrison hopes to reprise her Momma Kirk role as well.
  • Karl Urban (playing Bones McCoy) reported to JoBlow that he’s confident ST 4 will occur.
  • Besides Urban, Zoe Saldana, Zachary Quinto, John Cho, and Simon Pegg are expected to sign on as the rest of the Enterprise bridge crew, minus Anton Yelchin (after his unfortunate death).
  • JJ Abrams, continuing as a producer for the Trek movies, announced Yelchin’s Chekov role won’t be recast.
  • Danai Gurira (best known for her roles in The Walking Dead and as the Captain of the Black Panther‘s Guard in the MCU), is being eyed to snag a role in ST4. (As reported by Deadline.)
  • Simon Pegg (Scotty) was the first to announce (with JoBlow) that a woman — S.J. Clarkson — will direct ST4. That’s a gender first in a Trek movie. (Variety has the full story.)
  • Interestingly, Zachari Quinto (Spock), back in April, cautioned that more Trek movies should not be considered guaranteed. It seems the Vulcan’s words might have been prophetic. Things seem to be both steaming ahead and at a stalemate.
So no real kind of update,
 
Oct 26, 2017
6,617
  • Danai Gurira (best known for her roles in The Walking Dead and as the Captain of the Black Panther‘s Guard in the MCU), is being eyed to snag a role in ST4. (As reported by Deadline.)
What are the odds she's in so much makeup/prosthetics you can't tell its her?
 
Oct 25, 2017
12,026
Not just him, so so many POC end up just covered in shit so as to be unrecognisable.
Michael Dorn and Tony Todd pop off the top of my head, but if you look at the other actors who have played notable Klingons:

Barbara March (Lursa)
Gwynyth Walsh (B'Etor)
Robert O'Reilly (Gowron)
JG Hertzler (Martok)
Charles Cooper (K'mpec)
Christopher Lloyd (Kruge)
Christopher Plummer (Chang)
Suzie Plakson (K’Ehleyr)
Jon Paul Steuer, Brian Bonsall, Marc Worden, James Sloyan (Alexander)
Michael Ansara (Kang)
William Campbell (Koloth)
John Colicos (Kor)

At least among the most prominent characters with heavy prosthesis use, it’s not terrible. You could argue about how many POC actors are cast in general and how they’re used with other races with heavy prosthesis, like Ferengi, but I haven’t done that look yet.
 
Nov 2, 2017
833
Okay, so I've always been a pretty big Star Trek fan... Liked the OS, most of the movies (baring V, Nemesis, and Into Darkness), and TNG is one of my all time favorite shows.

Couldn't get into DS9 when it originally aired, but honestly didn't care too much to try. I didn't care for the concept at the time. Yes, I was one of those that was like, "What? Just a space station? That's not Trek." Over the years though, I've picked a few episodes through reruns here and there, thought it was okay I guess, but again, not a fair shake.

Anyway, FINALLY got around to giving the series a proper run-through, and having just finished season 2... holy shit was I mistaken. This is some good shit. I feel like like there's even a bit more consistency at the same point in time comparing TNG.
I’m a newish ST fan, I watched all the movies as a kid but never any of the series until my wife and I started this year with TNG. DS9 has become my faviorite series of all time. There’s not one weak or underdeveloped reoccurring character through it’s entire run. We are on VOY right now and it’s a massive step down.

And Sisko is the best captain :)
 

Poodlestrike

Community Resettler
Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,306
I’m a newish ST fan, I watched all the movies as a kid but never any of the series until my wife and I started this year with TNG. DS9 has become my faviorite series of all time. There’s not one weak or underdeveloped reoccurring character through it’s entire run. We are on VOY right now and it’s a massive step down.

And Sisko is the best captain :)
No lies detected in this post. Even the Ferengi develop nicely.
 
Oct 26, 2017
6,617
I’m a newish ST fan, I watched all the movies as a kid but never any of the series until my wife and I started this year with TNG. DS9 has become my faviorite series of all time. There’s not one weak or underdeveloped reoccurring character through it’s entire run. We are on VOY right now and it’s a massive step down.

And Sisko is the best captain :)
Good chap!
 
Oct 26, 2017
2,959
First Tasha Yar brings Lex Luthor back to life, now Commander Riker is busting supervillains out of prison to take down Superman.
No wonder Starfleet had to create a Department of Temporal investigations when you've got Starfleet officers going back in time to try and kill Superman.
 
Oct 31, 2017
1,921
I'm watching Encounter at Farpoint on Netflix. I haven't seen it in probably 20 years. Picard is a real asshole at this point in the series. I've seen a few season one episodes on BBC America the last few months, but he didn't seem as bad as in the pilot.
 
Oct 25, 2017
2,018
I'm watching Encounter at Farpoint on Netflix. I haven't seen it in probably 20 years. Picard is a real asshole at this point in the series. I've seen a few season one episodes on BBC America the last few months, but he didn't seem as bad as in the pilot.
The less control Gene Roddenberry gets over TNG the better it gets.
 
Oct 28, 2017
2,777
Missouri
Deadlock was a great Voyager episode that really shocked me on some levels (so Harry Kim is really only half Harry Kim or some nonsense). Strongly written and framed perfectly so that it never dragged. It also felt like a sign of what Voyager episodes really would rely on in the future - alternate realities, duplication, horrific circumstances that aren’t brought up again, etc.
 

fuchsdh

Banned
Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,066
Is it actually in there?
If only...

Deadlock was a great Voyager episode that really shocked me on some levels (so Harry Kim is really only half Harry Kim or some nonsense). Strongly written and framed perfectly so that it never dragged. It also felt like a sign of what Voyager episodes really would rely on in the future - alternate realities, duplication, horrific circumstances that aren’t brought up again, etc.
Yeah it's one that surprised me on rewatching. All I remembered was the outcome not the beats to it.

Kim being from a duplicate Voyager doesn't really seem like something that would get brought up, to be fair. He was basically identical to his counterpart. The damage getting repaired in an episode? That's more par for the course.

(Also weird on rewatch: they *only* send Kim and Wildman? I get that they were the ones who were dead—as far as we know—on the other Voyager but you could potentially save one or two other crew members by the guesstimate established earlier.)
 
Oct 28, 2017
2,777
Missouri
If only...



Yeah it's one that surprised me on rewatching. All I remembered was the outcome not the beats to it.

Kim being from a duplicate Voyager doesn't really seem like something that would get brought up, to be fair. He was basically identical to his counterpart. The damage getting repaired in an episode? That's more par for the course.

(Also weird on rewatch: they *only* send Kim and Wildman? I get that they were the ones who were dead—as far as we know—on the other Voyager but you could potentially save one or two other crew members by the guesstimate established earlier.)
I am very happy with Voyager as a show but it stings knowing how much better it could have been if it were more serialized. It didn't even need to be completely serialized - the episodic nature fit the theme of them discovering new cultures and trying to survive in a place where they have no other help. It didn't quite need to become Battlestar Galactica where humanity has been destroyed and every episode was a chaotic frenzy for survival lol. But it does tend to have a "wipe everything clean and forget" theme that happens in a lot of the more interesting episodes. The few recurring threads (like the mirroring relationship between Seven's desire to become more human and the Doctor's pursuit for equality and rights that had a slow and steady pace) were quite good.

Tuvix was fascinating and a true moral dilemma. That final sequence was horrifying to watch as the poor dude realized that no one on Voyager was on his side and that the crew would always put their crew first. I didn't like the character at all so I am happy Janeway and team chose the more psychopathic option even if it felt disturbing to watch them all lose their empathy and force death on him. Tuvok is my man. Neelix is still annoying but I like him in the latter seasons when Kes is gone.
 

fuchsdh

Banned
Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,066
I am very happy with Voyager as a show but it stings knowing how much better it could have been if it were more serialized. It didn't even need to be completely serialized - the episodic nature fit the theme of them discovering new cultures and trying to survive in a place where they have no other help. It didn't quite need to become Battlestar Galactica where humanity has been destroyed and every episode was a chaotic frenzy for survival lol. But it does tend to have a "wipe everything clean and forget" theme that happens in a lot of the more interesting episodes. The few recurring threads (like the mirroring relationship between Seven's desire to become more human and the Doctor's pursuit for equality and rights that had a slow and steady pace) were quite good.

Tuvix was fascinating and a true moral dilemma. That final sequence was horrifying to watch as the poor dude realized that no one on Voyager was on his side and that the crew would always put their crew first. I didn't like the character at all so I am happy Janeway and team chose the more psychopathic option even if it felt disturbing to watch them all lose their empathy and force death on him. Tuvok is my man. Neelix is still annoying but I like him in the latter seasons when Kes is gone.
He definitely improves from "Mortal Coil" on when they shift him to being an ambassador and give him a surrogate father role for Naomi (and having just watched "Once Upon A Time", they should have killed off Wildman. Would suck to be an orphaned only child on a ship like Voyager but I think given that they never really developer her it would have been a more dramatic and useful possibility.) I think Voyager gets an unfair rap for the "reset button" conditions as I was pleasantly surprised on my rewatch thus far how often they reference previous events; where I think it falls down is in showing rather than telling some of that (stuff like battle damage doesn't show up or persist for an episode or two when they have a real scrape) and a lack of continuity in explaining certain things (like "Tuvix" on the Janeway-Doc relationship, or the constant loss of shuttles that are apparently easy to replace until the fifth season.)

Ultimately, while I think those tweaks would have made the show better, they're pretty low on the totem pole of issues with the worst of Voyager's episodes.

I think to me the perfect balance of episodic and serialized television remains Stargate SG-1. There was continuity between episodes, even if the basic structure remained the same, and every few episodes you'd have a point where they moved the overarching plot forward. It never felt like you had to watch every episode, nor did it feel like you were just in a holding pattern until a season ended.

The one thing I appreciate about Voyager is that even with those flaws, it remains a brisk show. What bugs the hell out of me with modern serialized shows is how much time they'll blow on "slow burn" episodes (Discovery was better than a lot of its breed at this, but still suffered from it.)