Star Trek Franchise |OT| To Boldly Go.....

Meowster

Member
Oct 28, 2017
3,463
Missouri
What did you all think about the Voyager episode where Kes came back? I somehow missed this one in my first watch of Voyager (and finally almost done with the second). It was nice to see the character again and that she had her own little arc. I know some fans weren't happy with the darker turn on the character. I feel bad whenever I see anything with Kes now, knowing how bad the actress's life has been post Trek.
 
Oct 25, 2017
3,483
Watching Search for Spock, somehow Kirk and Sulu are able to figure out there is a klingon ship cloaked above Genesis due to visual space 'disturbance' kinda hard to believe a ships sensors couldn't detect something like that if you can see it with the naked eye. Also it doesn't make any sense for Spock to have been recreated as a infant, his body should have stayed the same age and just reanimated.
 

Cheerilee

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,482
I guess the problem before was that they had no assets to work with, but if that algorithm can work on those assets, it could maybe do something with that.
Star Trek and Babylon 5's remastering problems are kind of the same, but different.

Star Trek was filmed in 4:3 on high quality film, suitable for remastering, but then the special effects were filmed (organically, using traditional techniques like miniatures and camera tricks), and copied onto the film of the actors, but the combined version wasn't suitable for a remaster, and nobody kept the originals of the isolated special effect pieces (just the full episode before the effects were added, and the full episode after the effects were added), so for a proper remaster Star Trek has to rebuild all of it's special effects (using computers, because that's easier and cheaper now than doing it the old fashioned way).

After doing it for TOS and TNG, Paramount has decided that it's too expensive for DS9, so some fans are trying to see if computers can polish a turd, and if they can pull something artificially-nice-looking out of the TV version, without a proper remaster.


Babylon 5 was filmed in widescreen on high quality film, because JMS saw widescreen coming and he wanted B5 to be ready for it. But B5's cutting edge special effects were made digitally on computers, not with miniatures and camera tricks, and the cost of rendering the CG in widescreen was prohibitive, so JMS let it go and let the CG be made in 4:3. Worst case scenario he could just rebuild the CG later, because CG prices were getting cheaper every day. And the original 4:3 CG assets were lost, because it was almost impossible to store that much data back in the day.

But then one of the TV stations airing the show asked for a widescreen version, and WB slapped together the worst quick-and-dirty widescreen version they could. They made a standard-definition copy of JMS's widescreen masters, and then crudely zoomed/cropped pieces of the 4:3 TV version to splice in anytime that a special effect appeared. It's a Frankenstein approach to something that was supposed to be beautiful.

And then when DVD arrived, WB said "Hey, the kids these days like widescreen, right? Give them that shit version we cobbled together."

Computer programs can't fix WB's half-assed widescreen hackjob. I like seeing bits of JMS's widescreen version (even if it's just bits), but the 4:3 TV version is framed better and looks more consistent than WB's hackjob, and maybe computers could do something with making the 4:3 TV version look better (I'm generally not a fan of artificial upscales), but the 4:3 TV version is unavailable, so they can't do that, and computer filters wouldn't be able to do anything about helping B5 reach it's full intended widescreen potential. And JMS has been begging to do a proper 4K remaster with new special effects since before Star Trek had that idea, but WB is in charge, not JMS, and WB absolutely refuses to spend that kind of money on B5.
 

Lagamorph

Member
Oct 26, 2017
3,620
So, watching the DS9 episode where the Founders force Odo to come back home by making him sick because "He was the first Changeling to ever harm another"

Fuck off.

The Changeling attacked and harmed him first. You could see it clearly in the episode that the other Changeling's forced link was causing Odo harm. Odo didn't kill the Changeling purely to side with the Solids, he killed the Changeling to defend himself and save his own life from the ship being destroyed by the Tzenkethi.
 

weemadarthur

Community Resettler
Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,755
The Changeling attacked and harmed him first.
Well, yes. Also the fight only happened to be around an unshielded warp core because the Changeling was messing with the ship, and all physical harm was accidental besides.

But you must also have missed the episode where Odo got hold of the universe’s monkey’s paw and wished to find his people.
 

firehawk12

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,454
Computer programs can't fix WB's half-assed widescreen hackjob. I like seeing bits of JMS's widescreen version (even if it's just bits), but the 4:3 TV version is framed better and looks more consistent than WB's hackjob, and maybe computers could do something with making the 4:3 TV version look better (I'm generally not a fan of artificial upscales), but the 4:3 TV version is unavailable, so they can't do that, and computer filters wouldn't be able to do anything about helping B5 reach it's full intended widescreen potential. And JMS has been begging to do a proper 4K remaster with new special effects since before Star Trek had that idea, but WB is in charge, not JMS, and WB absolutely refuses to spend that kind of money on B5.
Honestly, it's probably easier to just reboot B5 altogether and remake it entirely at this point. lol
 

StallionDan

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,724
What did you all think about the Voyager episode where Kes came back? I somehow missed this one in my first watch of Voyager (and finally almost done with the second). It was nice to see the character again and that she had her own little arc. I know some fans weren't happy with the darker turn on the character. I feel bad whenever I see anything with Kes now, knowing how bad the actress's life has been post Trek.
I think it is a terrible episode that completely wasted her, ruined the character and also made no sense at any point.

Kes is back and suddenly angry for stupid reasons that just make no sense and wants to kill everyone. We don't get any sort of reunion because she just travels back in time and it's all about her interacting with a S1 crew. The resolution being young Kes saying 'Please don't do this I am happy' is equally stupid. Then Kes just buggers off, never to be seen again.
 
Oct 30, 2017
1,098
I know that Trek often takes on racism, but man Terra Prime was hard to watch in light of recent events, and I didn't even watch til the end.
 

Teiresias

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,905
I mean, the CGI in B5 is so damn basic someone could probably redo it all at higher quality in their basement at this point and slice it in. Would it be Discovery-level CG? No, it would not. But it would be a hell of a lot better than what's there now.
 

Lagamorph

Member
Oct 26, 2017
3,620
Well, yes. Also the fight only happened to be around an unshielded warp core because the Changeling was messing with the ship, and all physical harm was accidental besides.

But you must also have missed the episode where Odo got hold of the universe’s monkey’s paw and wished to find his people.
For all the post-Season 3 writing that DS9 does well, there are also points where it doesn't so much drop the ball as throw it over a cliff.

I mean there is basically zero attempt at any kind of diplomacy with the Dominion. When the Founder impersonating O'Brien talks to Sisko on Earth, why the hell doesn't he just ask the obvious question, "Why?". Hell, why not point out that the Federation has co-existed peacefully with several other shapeshifting races for at least a century now.
It's like the writers were hell bent on having a war no matter what so just threw away any inconvenient parts of the Federation.
 

JonnyDBrit

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,708
For all the post-Season 3 writing that DS9 does well, there are also points where it doesn't so much drop the ball as throw it over a cliff.

I mean there is basically zero attempt at any kind of diplomacy with the Dominion. When the Founder impersonating O'Brien talks to Sisko on Earth, why the hell doesn't he just ask the obvious question, "Why?". Hell, why not point out that the Federation has co-existed peacefully with several other shapeshifting races for at least a century now.
It's like the writers were hell bent on having a war no matter what so just threw away any inconvenient parts of the Federation.
Doesn't help that - like with the Klingons and Romulans admittedly - we don't get a particularly good and/or long look at any of the actual subject species of the Dominion. The Jem'Hadar and Vorta are largely devoid of cultural context - they exist in specific regards to their servitude to the Founders, whether or not in defiance of it. We get to see a few refugees prior to the Dominion proper being met, but they don't come up. Meanwhile species like the Teplans - who could have been used as a point against the Dominion being allowed to simply act freely - don't particularly come up again due to the nature of their story. Further, the nature of the Dominion War means we don't actually see the Gamma Quadrant all that much after the end of season 5, so we don't get to see how like, the war is affecting the Dominion's hold on its own territories. In all, there isn't much room given in which to explore the potential points of similarity for a diplomatic resolution, or the ongoing points of contention - the Jem'Hadar's treatment of New Bajor certainly being a bad way to make first contact - to help rationalise a conflict; instead we get the grand politicking of large space powers trying to outmaneuver each other on the presumption they're going to war inevitably.
 

Cheerilee

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,482
Yes, JMS the ultimate forward thinking visionary. The show only looks terrible because of The WB... THE DUBYAAAABEEEEEE!!!!!
That's really not what I said, and just comes across as someone being unable to handle anything positive being said about JMS.

JMS saw widescreen coming, and prepared for it, by filming his show in widescreen. Babylon 5 was always intended to make the jump to widescreen, unlike some of it's contemporaries, like Buffy the Vampire Slayer, where Fox upset Joss Whedon by forcing his 4:3 show into widescreen against Whedon's wishes, revealing production issues on the left and right sides of the sets, while cutting the tops of people's heads off. Paramount had the good sense to leave their 4:3 shows in 4:3 where they belong.

JMS was a couple years ahead of the curve when it came to using computers to make the special effects, but unfortunately, widescreen would've basically doubled the cost of the CG, so he pushed that to the back burner as a problem to be solved later. If he had done the special effects with traditional, practical techniques (using models), there would've been no added cost for widescreen, and Babylon 5 on DVD wouldn't have the problem that it has.

Babylon 5 would look very pretty if WB gave the show a 4K remaster (which was not part of JMS's original plan for the show) and rebuilt the CG (which was part of JMS's original plan for the show). The native widescreen could give B5 a neat visual advantage over other shows from it's era.

As-is, it looks kind of ugly (still plenty watchable, IMO), and it's biggest problem is the part where they occasionally cropped/zoomed the picture to force parts of the 4:3 version to fit into widescreen.

And yeah, that's all on WB, because JMS hasn't laid his hands on the show in 20-25 years. And it's not for a lack of trying on his part.
 
Oct 26, 2017
823
Yes yes, Joss Whedon is not the one true visionary. He was too busy with his shady casting couch operation to pay attention to the widescreens. But you gotta admit his show does look better in widescreen than B5 even if you can occasionally see a boom mic or something floating into the frame, lol.
 
Oct 25, 2017
3,239
The Ocean
For all the post-Season 3 writing that DS9 does well, there are also points where it doesn't so much drop the ball as throw it over a cliff.

I mean there is basically zero attempt at any kind of diplomacy with the Dominion. When the Founder impersonating O'Brien talks to Sisko on Earth, why the hell doesn't he just ask the obvious question, "Why?". Hell, why not point out that the Federation has co-existed peacefully with several other shapeshifting races for at least a century now.
It's like the writers were hell bent on having a war no matter what so just threw away any inconvenient parts of the Federation.
Because it’s been said plenty before. The Dominion has overran countless Federations in the Gamma quadrant. Their only goal is dominion over all solids. They have no interest in peace, and we’re aware of the Federation a century before the wormhole was discovered. They didn’t expect to make first contact so soon so their plans were pushed up.
 

Lagamorph

Member
Oct 26, 2017
3,620
Because it’s been said plenty before. The Dominion has overran countless Federations in the Gamma quadrant. Their only goal is dominion over all solids. They have no interest in peace, and we’re aware of the Federation a century before the wormhole was discovered. They didn’t expect to make first contact so soon so their plans were pushed up.
The issue is that the Federation doesn't even try in DS9. Not only do we not see any attempt but nobody even references any attempts.
 

Serebii

Serebii.net Webmaster
Verified
Oct 24, 2017
4,393
The issue is that the Federation doesn't even try in DS9. Not only do we not see any attempt but nobody even references any attempts.
Star Trek Insurrection
PICARD: The Goren system?
RIKER: They need us to mediate some territorial dispute.
PICARD: Oh no! We can't delay the archaeological expedition to Hanoran Two. That'll put us right in the middle of monsoon season.
RIKER: The diplomatic corps is busy with Dominion negotiations.
PICARD: Oh, so they need us to put out one more brush fire. Can anyone remember when we used to be explorers?
 
Oct 25, 2017
3,483
I would have loved a voyager story arc where resources are depleted and they have to start putting more and more personal on stasis, eventually you have a skeleton crew running things, equipment starts failing etc. That would have given them at least half a season worth of stories.

Edit: I'm watching the episode where Seven and the Dr take over voyager because the human crew can't survive some storm they are passing through.
 

Lagamorph

Member
Oct 26, 2017
3,620
That's.....yeah that's a monstrosity. One of the worst Starfleet ship designs, concept or otherwise, I've ever laid eyes upon.


Also, re-watching the VOY episode Critical Care. I just love watching Janeway getting more and more fed up with chasing Gar around, until she's just completely and utterly checked out by the time she gets to the married woman he had a fling with.
 

StallionDan

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,724
I gave up that Collection long ago. When it was originally announced as 70 ships I expected it to have a few stinkers, but they keep extending it and now it at 150+ at least. Most of that extra 80 are basically clone ships or trash tier.

Plus as far as I'm aware they still not added ships like the Son'a ships from Insurrection or the Scimitar from Nemesis.

I stopped in the 90s I think. Plan to sell off the trash. Anyone want a Malon Freighter?
 

Teiresias

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,905
I actually rather like that ILM test model of the concept, particularly its profile, but that Eaglemoss rendering of it is hideous.
 

chrominance

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,113
I would have loved a voyager story arc where resources are depleted and they have to start putting more and more personal on stasis, eventually you have a skeleton crew running things, equipment starts failing etc. That would have given them at least half a season worth of stories.

Edit: I'm watching the episode where Seven and the Dr take over voyager because the human crew can't survive some storm they are passing through.
Besides the stasis part, isn't this basically the Year of Hell two-parter?
 

StallionDan

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,724
like with everything Enterprise season 3 did the stasis episode better than Voyager
Nah, Seven's visions fighting and arguing with her being her subconscious thoughts battling with eachother is much better than Phlox just seeing stuff because he is paranoid and affected by the nebula.

The twist is also dumb, unlike Seven not realising the alien was her own thoughts until near the end which is understandable, Phlox would of had to have put T'Pol under so her appearing should have been immediate red flags.
 

Happenstance

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,448
I was just thinking how it might have been nice to get O'Brian on the Defiant with Worf in First Contact. Would have been good to get him in one of the Next Gen movies.
 

Lagamorph

Member
Oct 26, 2017
3,620
In fairness, that chart is as a percentage and the higher percentages lost were on ships with way smaller crews.

Like Picard had a crew of over 1,000 whilst Archer had a crew of 80.
 

butalala

Member
Nov 24, 2017
461
I was just thinking how it might have been nice to get O'Brian on the Defiant with Worf in First Contact. Would have been good to get him in one of the Next Gen movies.
Yeah, I think the same thing. Like, who are these people on the Defiant along with Worf? Imagine the Chief drinking with Cochrane in that bar. Still, First Contact got Barclay and Nurse Ogawa involved and Chief O'Brien got to be in All Good Things..., which is better than any of the TNG movies.
 

butalala

Member
Nov 24, 2017
461
Memory Alpha says that 18 died in this battle, plus 24 wounded. NX-01's crew was only 83, so 18 dead = 20% + 24 wounded = roughly 50% dead or wounded. T'Pol is sitting in the chair, but it's not like Archer is incapacitated, so he's still the captain, right?
 

StallionDan

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,724
Memory Alpha says that 18 died in this battle, plus 24 wounded. NX-01's crew was only 83, so 18 dead = 20% + 24 wounded = roughly 50% dead or wounded. T'Pol is sitting in the chair, but it's not like Archer is incapacitated, so he's still the captain, right?
Eh, it's like Riker blaming Picard for not being able to alpha strike an old BoP and getting his ship blown up.
 
Oct 25, 2017
3,483
So I was watching Best of Both Worlds today and I don't get why the Borg needed a Human voice (Picard) to represent them on their way to assimilating earth? They don't seem like the type to ask nicely or go on their way if rejected. Seems like a lazy way to get Picard to be a borg.
 

Lagamorph

Member
Oct 26, 2017
3,620
So I was watching Best of Both Worlds today and I don't get why the Borg needed a Human voice (Picard) to represent them on their way to assimilating earth? They don't seem like the type to ask nicely or go on their way if rejected. Seems like a lazy way to get Picard to be a borg.
First Contact explains it a bit better, Picard/Locutus was intended to be a counterpart/equal to the Borg Queen, hence being the only Borg with a name rather than a number.

Plus less resistance would mean more people/ships/technology to assimilate.