Star Trek Franchise |OT| To Boldly Go.....

Happenstance

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,065
United Kingdom
Looks like Destination Star Trek UK is going back to London next year instead of Birmingham. Hopefully they can use the different space than they tend to in Birmingham. On the plus side though they're not holding it the same weekend as MCM Comic Con so they aren't splitting their audience. That couldn't have helped attendance this year.
 

Lagamorph

Member
Oct 26, 2017
4,447
Titan Books to publish Captain Janeway autobiography for 25th anniversary of Voyager

The Autobiography of Kathryn Janeway. The book is “edited” by Una McCormack and bears the subtitle The History of the Captain Who Went Further Than Any Had Before. The book, written from Janeway’s perspective, will recount Janeway’s journey through the Delta Quadrant. It will offer Janeway’s thoughts on how she bound a crew of mixed Starfleet and Maquis personnel together. She’ll consider how she forged alliances and faced down the Borg on the Collective’s home turf. She’ll also reveal her thoughts on crewmates like Tuvok, Chakotay, Neelix, and Seven of Nine.
I bet a bunch of people here will be skipping to the Tuvix section.

 
Oct 25, 2017
4,170
Figured I'd share, first time I've ever done a pumpkin so I kept it small and simple




Err I don't know why that second one is sideways.
 

Meowster

Member
Oct 28, 2017
4,963
Missouri


The best, just got to this one on my Deep Space Nine rewatch, the ending always gives me chills with his acceptance of everything that happened.

Avery Brooks had the time of his life with this episode.
 

Kromeo

Member
Oct 27, 2017
6,256
Way too many episodes seem to revolve around Troi falling in love with someone, she's even worse than Riker lol

Give someone else a chance
 

Happenstance

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,065
United Kingdom
Just researching All Good Things again. It's making me hope that we get some info in Picard on what happened (if anything) between him and Crusher. I need Picard to get a little happiness. Plus it would be nice for poor little Wesley to have his real dad finally accept him :P
 

B.K.

Member
Oct 31, 2017
4,300
The federation council majority leader says Janeway’s execution of Tuvix was “perfect”.
She did the right thing. Spock always said the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few, or the one. The Voyager crew was better off with their cook/morale office and chief security officer as two separate people.
 

Fathead

Member
Oct 31, 2017
105
She did the right thing. Spock always said the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few, or the one. The Voyager crew was better off with their cook/morale office and chief security officer as two separate people.
Execution is illegal in the Federation. Voyager is a Federation ship captained by a Federation officer, who is sworn to uphold the rights of the individual. If Data could not be deconstructed without his consent then Tuvix could not either.
 

B.K.

Member
Oct 31, 2017
4,300
Execution is illegal in the Federation.
It wasn't an execution. They were undoing a transporter accident. When Picard, Gaignun, and Ro were turned into children, should they have left them alone and let them grow up again? It's the same thing. They were correcting an accident.
 

weemadarthur

Community Resettler
Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,261
It wasn't an execution. They were undoing a transporter accident. When Picard, Gaignun, and Ro were turned into children, should they have left them alone and let them grow up again? It's the same thing. They were correcting an accident.
They offered to, actually. Each individual chose treatment. In fact, they expected treatment might not work and had to emotionally deal with it....before the reset.
 

StallionDan

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,275
Execution is illegal in the Federation. Voyager is a Federation ship captained by a Federation officer, who is sworn to uphold the rights of the individual. If Data could not be deconstructed without his consent then Tuvix could not either.
Tuvix claimed both Neelix and Tuvok parts of him liked it better that way, yet when seperate it is revealed not to be true. So Tuvix was clearly mentally unstable and should not have been listened to. All Janeway did was order the Doctor to cure two crew members.
 
Oct 25, 2017
4,170
Yeah I feel like people are trying to use that a reason to dog pile on Janeway but I think she did the right thing. Although with better writing it wouldn't be so controversial...but well.
 

StallionDan

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,275
Either that or she was getting possessed, they really did everyone outside of Picard/Data/Riker dirty in TNG.
Troi was numerous times physically or mentally violated or 'Space raped' for a better term and several of these times it straight up ignored and the focus put on the outcome instead of the act. In fact I think is only one episode where she reacts like a person should. Then as final piss take they do it one last time in Nemesis. I've always hated it.
 

B.K.

Member
Oct 31, 2017
4,300
Troi was numerous times physically or mentally violated or 'Space raped' for a better term and several of these times it straight up ignored and the focus put on the outcome instead of the act. In fact I think is only one episode where she reacts like a person should. Then as final piss take they do it one last time in Nemesis. I've always hated it.
Troi and Geordi episodes are the worst. I usually skip them when they're on TV.
 

butalala

Member
Nov 24, 2017
866
Poor Geordi has so many scenes where he has to interact with the computer or one of the voiceless extras. They should have established a few rotating engineer crew members for him to bounce ideas off of or put O'Brien down there until he transferred to DS9.
 

Cheerilee

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,877
Tuvix claimed both Neelix and Tuvok parts of him liked it better that way, yet when seperate it is revealed not to be true. So Tuvix was clearly mentally unstable and should not have been listened to. All Janeway did was order the Doctor to cure two crew members.
That's not necessarily true.

While merged, Tuvok has access to Neelix's emotions, and merged-Tuvok really likes it.

While merged, Neelix has access to Tuvok's intelligence, and merged-Neelix really likes it.

Separated Tuvok is a typical Vulcan, and he doesn't want to embrace emotions.

Separated Neelix is an idiot, and he doesn't want to become smarter, because he doesn't feel like he needs to be smarter (he doesn't see himself as an idiot).

The two of them are okay with themselves and like who they are, and the fusion is something that neither of them would ever ask for, but once they have it, they can't deny the wonderful benefits of such an arrangement. But split them up? Yeah, they're going to go right back to denying. I mean, it's possible that breaking up Tuvix would have resulted in a Tuvok and Neelix who were both sobbing "Put us back, put us back!" like Malcom McDonald from Star Trek Generations after he was ripped out of the Nexus, but that wouldn't have fit with Voyager's magic reset button philosophy.
 

Fathead

Member
Oct 31, 2017
105
Did Tuvix die? Yes. Did Janeway perform the act of killing this sentient being? Yes.


Again, if Data had the right to refuse being disassembled, then Tuvix had the right to refuse being disassembled. And arguing that a sentient being’s mental state somehow makes it okay to cease their existence is a terrible argument.

From a show perspective, I get that the episode has to get back to status quo, but it’s the worst way to paint Janeway. Persuade Tuvix to agree to save two people with his personal sacrifice. Don’t just murder the guy.
 

StallionDan

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,275
Did Tuvix die? Yes. Did Janeway perform the act of killing this sentient being? Yes.


Again, if Data had the right to refuse being disassembled, then Tuvix had the right to refuse being disassembled. And arguing that a sentient being’s mental state somehow makes it okay to cease their existence is a terrible argument.

From a show perspective, I get that the episode has to get back to status quo, but it’s the worst way to paint Janeway. Persuade Tuvix to agree to save two people with his personal sacrifice. Don’t just murder the guy.
If you're gonna argue it killed him, not seperating him was killing Tuvok and Neelix.
 

Cheerilee

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,877
If you're gonna argue it killed him, not seperating him was killing Tuvok and Neelix.
If they're alive and well and happy inside Tuvix, then they're alive and well and happy inside Tuvix.

If they "died" when they became Tuvix, then they died in a transporter accident.

The act of "not killing Tuvix" wasn't actively killing Tuvok and Neelix.

Tuvix refused the procedure. He argued that he was his own identity, and that disassembling him was murder. You can't murder someone who doesn't consent to dying, just to save the lives of two people (nor are you allowed to sacrifice someone to bring two people back from the dead using necromancy). Is Janeway allowed to start killing crew members to harvest their organs?

The Doctor literally refused to perform the procedure, so Janeway pushed him out of the way and pulled the trigger herself.
 

Happenstance

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,065
United Kingdom
Yeah I feel like people are trying to use that a reason to dog pile on Janeway but I think she did the right thing. Although with better writing it wouldn't be so controversial...but well.
I don't think it was bad writing at all. I think the fact that it does bring about this kind of discussion and even at the end you don't necessarily believe that even Janeway thinks what she is doing is right makes it good writing and a brilliant murky decision by the character.
 

StallionDan

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,275
They died in a transporter accident. They were already dead.
They didn't die though as Janeway was able to return them back to normal, they were suffering from a medical condition as a result of the accident.

It not the first time on Trek someone was changed and refused to get changed back but the others changed them back anyway.


If they're alive and well and happy inside Tuvix, then they're alive and well and happy inside Tuvix.

If they "died" when they became Tuvix, then they died in a transporter accident.

The act of "not killing Tuvix" wasn't actively killing Tuvok and Neelix.

Tuvix refused the procedure. He argued that he was his own identity, and that disassembling him was murder. You can't murder someone who doesn't consent to dying, just to save the lives of two people (nor are you allowed to sacrifice someone to bring two people back from the dead using necromancy). Is Janeway allowed to start killing crew members to harvest their organs?

The Doctor literally refused to perform the procedure, so Janeway pushed him out of the way and pulled the trigger herself.
The fact they were brought back means they were not dead. If Seperating Tuvix is murder then refusing to seperate Tuvix can be nothing less than choosing to kill them. If they were alive inside Tuvix, then Tuvix by extension can be alive inside them.
 

Cheerilee

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,877
The fact they were brought back means they were not dead.
That's not really true. Trek has used science to bring people back from the dead several times. That doesn't really mean the moral or legal definition of "dead" is wrong.

If Seperating Tuvix is murder then refusing to seperate Tuvix can be nothing less than choosing to kill them. If they were alive inside Tuvix, then Tuvix by extension can be alive inside them.
The "deaths" of Tuvok/Neelix/Tuvix are somewhat philosophical questions. Maybe they're dead, maybe they aren't.

But if Tuvok and Neelix are not dead, then the only person in any position to speak for their wishes is Tuvix. And Tuvix said that, through the fusion, Tuvok and Neelix had reached a new state of happiness that was previously unknown and unknowable to them.

If Tuvok and Neelix are dead, then they have lost the right to be prioritized over the living.

Tuvix identified himself as his own unique being. A third identity. If Tuvok and Neelix could be restored at no cost, then that would be one thing, but their restoration comes at what Tuvix (and Voyager's own Chief Medical Officer) perceives as the death of a living person who explicitly does not consent to be sacrificed.


If Tuvok and Neelix are dead, then the point of death was the accident. It's nobody's fault. If Tuvok and Neelix can be saved through Tuvix's death, then that's blood on Janeway's hands (should she choose to do so, which she did), and that's murder. There was no "the real murder would have been to not shoot Tuvix in the back of the head".

Like, if two people are mortally wounded in a traffic accident, because their car hit a pole after they swerved to avoid a negligent jaywalker, then that jaywalker owes his life to the two people in the car. But the authorities cannot order the execution and organ harvesting of the jaywalker to save the lives of the people in the car (and it's especially bad when the #1 authority does it over the objections of the only two people qualified to make the ethical decisions, because the authority holds the power and just so happens to be friends with the two victims and doesn't give a shit about the jaywalker who she just met).


Or, if you were to assert that the you of today is an entirely different person from the you of one year ago, that does not mean that the you of one year ago is "dying", and that the only way to "stop murdering the you of one year ago" is to club you on the head and give you amnesia. If the you of today is the you that exists, then you're the one who gets the right to your being. The you of one year ago still exists inside of you, and is not in any real danger, while giving you amnesia would murder/destroy the you of today. And no, clubbing you on the head and destroying the current you would not allow the current you to live on inside your past self, as your past self lives on inside you.

Janeway murdered/destroyed Tuvix because she didn't like what he had become.
 

StallionDan

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,275
Personally I never saw Tuvix as a unique third person, but always two combined. An immatation of consciousness brought about by mushing two brains together.

He is literally referred to as a transporter accident and it's said if they could have seperated them immediately they would have without hesitation. Tuvix even wanted this initially.

Also Kes is the real dark horse, Tuvix goes to her and begs her to speak to Janeway in his defense, calling Kes his only hope. Then Kes goes to her and throws Tuvix under the bus and says she wants Neelix back. I'm pretty sure Kes is the deciding factor in all this.
 

Cheerilee

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,877
Also Kes is the real dark horse, Tuvix goes to her and begs her to speak to Janeway in his defense, calling Kes his only hope. Then Kes goes to her and throws Tuvix under the bus and says she wants Neelix back. I'm pretty sure Kes is the deciding factor in all this.
I think it was a one-two punch from both Kes and Janeway.

Tuvok was literally Janeway's best friend in the entire world. Voyager is only in the Delta Quadrant at all because Tuvok got dragged there while working undercover, spying on Chakotay, so Janeway followed, trying to rescue Tuvok.

Janeway wanted Tuvok back, even though Tuvix was a better cook and a better security officer than Tuvok and Neelix ever were (both sides benefiting from the other). So she was pressuring Tuvix to volunteer to kill himself. "C'mon, take one for the team, Tuvok and Neelix would totally kill themselves for you." "Oh, is that right? So that means I can stay as I am?" *Janeway clicks her tongue*

Then Tuvix asks Kes for help since Janeway is obviously trying to murder him. Kes does the opposite and cries to Janeway, because Neelix was her best friend in the entire world, and Kes really wants to murder Tuvix so she can have Neelix back the way he was.

As the Captain, Janeway has the power and the authority to murder Tuvix, and Kes mirrors Janeway's feelings on the matter, which convinces Janeway that her gut feelings are right, so she orders Tuvix's execution, and carries it out personally when The Doctor refuses to do it.
 

Alexandros

Member
Oct 26, 2017
7,945
This Tuvix thing is an example of what Discovery lacks. 20 years give or take after the episode aired we're still debating the core philosophical issue. Who will be talking about any Discovery episode we've seen so far after twenty years?
 

StallionDan

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,275
What ethical problem has Discovery had? Should we nuke a race's home world and commit genocide or not? Should we keep using the tardigrade until it dies or not?

I guess was that planet with humans on with the power and whatever.

Oh wait, it's "Should Discovery have redeemed Space Hitler, who is worse than real Hitler because at least he didn't eat his victims?"
 

Sesuadra

Member
Oct 26, 2017
1,806
nice to see that people in this thread share my issues with discovery.

my wife and I both love Star Trek and while we talk often about episodes and the philosophy behind them, we not once had talks like this about discovery episodes.

and god damn good the Darmok episode in TNG is (S05E02)

btw. Tuvix had to go. in a situation like voyager was in, you need more people. just imagine tuvix dies and your moral and security officer are gone

Edit: I hope we see the Bynar again in a future ST Episode. I liked the idea of such a species
 

chrominance

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,177
btw. Tuvix had to go. in a situation like voyager was in, you need more people. just imagine tuvix dies and your moral and security officer are gone
Insert jokes about Neelix/the "morale" officer being 100% expendable.

Also, thanks to this thread I now know more about Tuvix than I thought possible, considering I don't think I even saw this episode (and I feel like I've watched most of Voyager's run at some point over the years).
 

Sesuadra

Member
Oct 26, 2017
1,806
Insert jokes about Neelix/the "morale" officer being 100% expendable.

Also, thanks to this thread I now know more about Tuvix than I thought possible, considering I don't think I even saw this episode (and I feel like I've watched most of Voyager's run at some point over the years).
Funny enough I find such a position on a ship lost in deep space very important.