Star Trek: Picard - Season 1 |OT| Re-ENGAGE!

[Amnesty]

The point isn't that people would still want rare, unique possessions, it's that the psychology of desire would fundamentally change after centuries of the commodity form being destroyed. It's social disintegration of previously held values, to the point that it would be totally unprecedented.

Like the closest thing we could consider is the internet throwing us into the prehistory of some fundamental changes in interpersonal social psychology. Star Treks way of handling tech would be like still having people use carrier pigeons to communicate friendly greetings like it was still a thing lots of people did despite the changes of the internet.

Aliens having currency systems is only because writers didn't want to actually explore what an alien psychology could actually be like, or if it could be coherent within the framework of their species history and the adoption of replicator technology - they just wanted to have simplistic opponents to throw into the mix. Starr Trek writing has always been very superficial in world building and pursuing depth in that regard.

None of any of this make sense no matter what explanations people try to come up with. There shouldn't be any resource control in a world like Star Trek. With the tech available people should be able to make whatever they want, including their own ships. There should probably be a bunch of gundam style space colonies around and whatever else.

 

[nenned]

I recently read the Countdown comic that acts as a prelude for what happened just before the Supernova, specifically the evacuation attempts by Starfleet.

The Tal Shiar were actively trying to sabotage the Federation, by destroying their vessels through sabotage, because they believed this entire thing was an act by the Federation to "conquer" the Empire.

We are to believe an entire species took gambled extinction by actively sabotaging their own survival, because they didn't believe Romulus was under threat, a year out? Their science was that far behind?

Haha, alright.

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Starfleet were only helping with the effort. The interview with Picard from Ep 1 said the Romulans asked for their help and there was something like 900 million Romulans to be rescued by Starfleet. Unless you think the entire Romulan population was only 900 million, The Romulans were either rescuing the others themselves or were getting help from other species.

I didn't read the comic you mentioned, but maybe the Tal Shiar though those rescued by Starfleet would become prisoners, be forced to reveal Romulan secrets, or, as you mentioned, be prelude to a conquest. They therefore opposed Starfleet's help. They then found those in Starfleet who have a natural dislike of Romulans (as Picard mentioned, there were many who objected to helping their oldest enemy) and conspired with them to sabotage the rescue effort. It would be a win/win for both groups. The Tal Shiar wouldn't have to worry about Starfleet conquest or refugees giving secrets, and the those in Starfleet who don't like the Romulans wouldn't have to help with their rescue. Of course, this is all just speculation on my part.

 

[mAcOdIn]

It's not like the Talk Shiar needed to fear the Federation doing anything nefarious, considering the type of organization they were they simply may have believed that this action could have led to a thawing between Romulans and the Federation and felt it was bad in principle for Romulans that that happen or simply felt that better relations with their old foe may make an organization like theirs less necessary and so for the sake of their power and funding wanted the Federation and Romulans to remain on worse terms at the expense of Romulans.

 

[Himynameischris]

Plus you have sections of the Romulans who didn't want reunification and thought this failure and death would force Romulans to want to isolate themselves again.

 

[Mr. Pointy]

You also have to remember that the supernova didn't happen until 2 years after the Mars event. The Tal Shiar/Zhat Vash probably thought they may have had more time.

 

[firehawk12]

Yeah, the answer to the money question is that "money doesn't exists except when it needs to exist".

I think the only broad argument you can make is that humanity at some point discovered capitalism doesn't work anymore (the Bell riots which are supposed to happen 4.5 years from now lol and then WW3) so there was a new system of governance and economy created, supported by the magic ability to make anything at anytime, that is some form of evolved individualistic socialism with optional capitalism.

I don't even know if it's the case that people want to help each other, just that it's so easy to help people that it makes no sense not to help them.

 

[Himynameischris]

So instead of "fuck you, I got mine" it's "fuck it, I got mine, you can get one too"

 

[Cheerilee]

 

[Vault]

The federation still has to mine dilithium to travel at warp speed. I can't imagine them handing out a precious finite resource to civilians for free.

 

[antonz]

The Tal Shiar operates for their own benefit not the benefit of the Romulan people. There are so many angles as to why they would want to prevent Federation assistance. Thawing of relations, Reunification being 2 of the largest potential threats to the Tal Shiar. Even in Star Trek Online after the Supernova the entire Storyline for the Romulans is the fact the Tal Shiar wants to rule over the survivors while the Survivors want a new Government with no Tal Shiar and friendly relations with everyone. The Tal Shiar would easily let a billion Romulans die if they think it will keep their Empire in tact

 

[Joeytj]

That leans into the theory of "He's not Picard anymore, he's Patrick Stewart calling himself Picard".

The producers knew that Patrick Stewart in real life had picked up off-road racing as a hobby, so they wrote a scene into the movie and gifted Patrick Stewart a dune buggy from an expensive designer that Patrick Stewart liked, as a bribe to try and get Patrick Stewart to agree to sign onto the movie.

That's not Picard softening, that's Picard becoming less and less Picard while becoming more and more Patrick Stewart.

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I mean, Picard has been 1/4 or 2/3 Stewart since the beginning. He's a frenchman with an English accent, loves Earl Gray, and reads Shakespeare. I don't know why keeping Picard evolving is some sort of "bad writing" or something.

Not that I liked that scene in Nemesis (didn't bother me much either), but there's nothing in PIC's Picard that says to me "this isn't Picard". He got nicer in the two decades since we last saw him. Goes with the set up by the end of TNG and then the movies.

 

[Deleted member 5028]

It's not like the Talk Shiar needed to fear the Federation doing anything nefarious, considering the type of organization they were they simply may have believed that this action could have led to a thawing between Romulans and the Federation and felt it was bad in principle for Romulans that that happen or simply felt that better relations with their old foe may make an organization like theirs less necessary and so for the sake of their power and funding wanted the Federation and Romulans to remain on worse terms at the expense of Romulans.

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Something else came to mind in a rare shower thought. It's possible that in the intervening years the Romulans discovered the background behind Sisko bringing them into the Dominion war. Starfleet and the Feds lied and ultimately assassinated a senator. If they had public knowledge of that why would you believe anything about a world ending threat?

 

[Joeytj]

The point isn't that people would still want rare, unique possessions, it's that the psychology of desire would fundamentally change after centuries of the commodity form being destroyed. It's social disintegration of previously held values, to the point that it would be totally unprecedented.

Like the closest thing we could consider is the internet throwing us into the prehistory of some fundamental changes in interpersonal social psychology. Star Treks way of handling tech would be like still having people use carrier pigeons to communicate friendly greetings like it was still a thing lots of people did despite the changes of the internet.

Aliens having currency systems is only because writers didn't want to actually explore what an alien psychology could actually be like, or if it could be coherent within the framework of their species history and the adoption of replicator technology - they just wanted to have simplistic opponents to throw into the mix. Starr Trek writing has always been very superficial in world building and pursuing depth in that regard.

None of any of this make sense no matter what explanations people try to come up with. There shouldn't be any resource control in a world like Star Trek. With the tech available people should be able to make whatever they want, including their own ships. There should probably be a bunch of gundam style space colonies around and whatever else.

Click to shrink...

Yeah, no matter how many fans try to explain it, the truth is that, in the order for the society we see in the show to work, the Federation has to regulate how resources are distributed. There's still a clear respect of private property, intellectual property, the right to commerce (even if money isn't use), the right to start a business, etc.

Although, if replicator technology is dependant on dilithium just as starships are, well, it doesn't actually mean there are limitless resources on Earth either. Poverty and most want are taken care off, but some people are still going to be better off than others.

 

[Amnesty]

Yeah, no matter how many fans try to explain it, the truth is that, in the order for the society we see in the show to work, the Federation has to regulate how resources are distributed. There's still a clear respect of private property, intellectual property, the right to commerce (even if money isn't use), the right to start a business, etc.

Although, if replicator technology is dependant on dilithium just as starships are, well, it doesn't actually mean there are limitless resources on Earth either. Poverty and most want are taken care off, but some people are still going to be better off than others.

Click to shrink...

The dilithium thing was always silly and I guess it's been used so there could be engineering drama or whatever. If you can convert light into matter then surely you could figure out a way to manipulate it into a power source. It's like they have the potential for something like a perpetual motion machine.

I think a more accurate view of Star Trek tech would be to have an ever expanding society - more and more places for people to live and enjoy their lives. Space colonies would be numerous, maybe even artificial worlds. The limits on tech in ST considering the upper end of their potential is constrained only by the writers refusal to let their imagination loose in favour of telling what has now become a sort of stock narrative of simplistic humans vs aliens who are basically one aspect of humanity. Cardassians are all shady supremacists, Romulans are sneaky, Vulcans are just logical, Klingons like fighting, etc.

Someone upthread mentioned that 'purists' just want the show to be about the exploration or whatever. And yeah, kind of? I want Star Trek to do something more, to not just slap a new coat of paint on old ideas or old narratives. ST Picard feels really old in the sense that the story it's telling feels super familiar and traditional. It feels really safe.

 

[chrominance]

That set of Abigail Nussbaum blog posts about TNG from a decade ago touch on the exploration aspects (or lack thereof) in TNG. It's interesting to think that we didn't really get back to the TOS (and TAS?) mode of exploring new worlds and civilizations until Voyager, when Voyager often got criticized for feeling like TNG lite. I wonder if some of that had to do with their attempt to make the Delta Quadrant feel familiar in the same way TNG did, by establishing one or two important political entities each season (the Kazon, the Borg/Species 8472, the Hirogen) and focusing a bunch of stories on them.

Anyways, back to Picard. I've been seeing a lot of talk about the show not being fast-paced enough, but personally I feel like the pace has been pretty perfect so far? The only real concern is knowing at the outset that the first season only has 10 episodes and so how far are we going to get into whatever arc Picard plans to show, but setting that aside I'm totally fine with how things have gone so far.

Like, there are definitely bits of each episode that I would've left on the cutting room floor, but if they had replaced them with something better that would've been fine to me. I don't find that I wish the episodes were shorter or got to the point quicker, and I don't miss Discovery's tendency to race through story implications to cram as much plot into 12/16 episodes at all.

 

[Noodle]

Some answers from the showrunner on some of the lore aspects, but it's hard to tell how serious he is.

Showrunner Michael Chabon Answers the Internet's Burning STAR TREK: PICARD Fan Questions

STAR TREK: PICARD showrunner Michael Chabon takes on the Internet's burning fan questions in a new data drop following the show's first three episodes

blog.trekcore.com

 

[chrominance]

Some answers from the showrunner on some of the lore aspects, but it's hard to tell how serious he is.

Showrunner Michael Chabon Answers the Internet's Burning STAR TREK: PICARD Fan Questions

STAR TREK: PICARD showrunner Michael Chabon takes on the Internet's burning fan questions in a new data drop following the show's first three episodes

blog.trekcore.com

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I actually suspect he's 100% serious about all his answers. I hope no one has actually asked him that Commander Oh question, though.

 

[Darvan]

Can we talking about episodes here? Have a question concerning Ep.3 which doesn't make sense I went back and re-watched the scene over and counted too unless it's a plot hole I think it gives away something about one of the characters.

 

[StallionDan]

Can we talking about episodes here? Have a question concerning Ep.3 which doesn't make sense I went back and re-watched the scene over and counted too unless it's a plot hole I think it gives away something about one of the characters.

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Go for it.

 

[Himynameischris]

We all know why Commodore Oh needs glasses..... she's ||from the mirror universe||

 

[Joeytj]

That set of Abigail Nussbaum blog posts about TNG from a decade ago touch on the exploration aspects (or lack thereof) in TNG. It's interesting to think that we didn't really get back to the TOS (and TAS?) mode of exploring new worlds and civilizations until Voyager, when Voyager often got criticized for feeling like TNG lite. I wonder if some of that had to do with their attempt to make the Delta Quadrant feel familiar in the same way TNG did, by establishing one or two important political entities each season (the Kazon, the Borg/Species 8472, the Hirogen) and focusing a bunch of stories on them.

Anyways, back to Picard. I've been seeing a lot of talk about the show not being fast-paced enough, but personally I feel like the pace has been pretty perfect so far? The only real concern is knowing at the outset that the first season only has 10 episodes and so how far are we going to get into whatever arc Picard plans to show, but setting that aside I'm totally fine with how things have gone so far.

Like, there are definitely bits of each episode that I would've left on the cutting room floor, but if they had replaced them with something better that would've been fine to me. I don't find that I wish the episodes were shorter or got to the point quicker, and I don't miss Discovery's tendency to race through story implications to cram as much plot into 12/16 episodes at all.

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I love her blog. She still maintains it, and is also active on Tumblr and Twitter.She's given her thoughts on Picard, and seems to be hopefully optimistic; although she had only seen the first episode there at that point.

 

[BorkBork]

I actually suspect he's 100% serious about all his answers. I hope no one has actually asked him that Commander Oh question, though.

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I appreciate the thoughtfulness of his answers. This is a writer thinking things through, working things out. He also knows his Trek, down to the Jarok exchange with Data. I love that episode.

 

[chrominance]

I love her blog. She still maintains it, and is also active on Tumblr and Twitter.She's given her thoughts on Picard, and seems to be hopefully optimistic; although she had only seen the first episode there at that point.

Click to shrink...

She makes a good point that I kind of can't believe I missed, given that I just rewatched The Measure of a Man recently, but: yeah, it is pretty fucked up that Bruce Maddox, the one who decided that an army of servile androids could be of use to Starfleet (not out of malice but of pure utilitarian rationalizing), is the one that gets to make children out of a long-dead Data, and no one seems remotely concerned by this or questions his right to do so.

 

[Himynameischris]

Well nobody knows what he did yet

 

[thediamondage]

I liked the first two episodes but didn't like the third very much. A Picard who just shrugs his shoulders and retires on his farm and lets his first officer get fired and doesn't contact her for a decade doesn't sound at all like the Captain Picard I remember from TNG, who literally defied the federation multiple times over moral choices and went out of his way to always have his crews back.

This very much feels like a Luke Skywalker moment, where a character is radically changed for story reasons and its just sorta hand waved away. I don't have a problem where they went - Picard "put to pasture", his former XO intensely dislikes him, etc - but I wish they had built it up better and more consistent with how he has acted in the past.

Also really weird that his Romulan buds on the vineyard won't go along with him, I know one of them said she won't go galavanting around the galaxy with him but even after like 10 assassins came after you guys... really? Also these are all absolutely terrible (ex)-spies, why are you taking this Daystrom Institute scientist with you? Because she knows synthetics? Who cares?? You're not going to dissect or repair one! I hope she isn't being setup as a baddie.

 

[BossAttack]

I liked the first two episodes but didn't like the third very much. A Picard who just shrugs his shoulders and retires on his farm and lets his first officer get fired and doesn't contact her for a decade doesn't sound at all like the Captain Picard I remember from TNG, who literally defied the federation multiple times over moral choices and went out of his way to always have his crews back.

This very much feels like a Luke Skywalker moment, where a character is radically changed for story reasons and its just sorta hand waved away. I don't have a problem where they went - Picard "put to pasture", his former XO intensely dislikes him, etc - but I wish they had built it up better and more consistent with how he has acted in the past.

Also really weird that his Romulan buds on the vineyard won't go along with him, I know one of them said she won't go galavanting around the galaxy with him but even after like 10 assassins came after you guys... really? Also these are all absolutely terrible (ex)-spies, why are you taking this Daystrom Institute scientist with you? Because she knows synthetics? Who cares?? You're not going to dissect or repair one! I hope she isn't being setup as a baddie.

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I only disagree in that Luke's character state in TLJ is explained and his arc in the film is about him becoming the legend he has always been. By the end, he's Luke Skywalker, Jedi Master, again. But with Picard, I don't get the feeling this is some arc. Rather, this is simply the new Picard and how he will be for the rest of the series. It doesn't look so much like some arc or natural character state as the writers simply not knowing how to write Picard.

 

[Darvan]

Go for it.

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The leading AI scientist lady shows up and just happens to have a rifle to kill one of the attackers ?

 

[Noodle]

The leading AI scientist lady shows up and just happens to have a rifle to kill one of the attackers ?

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It was a Romulan disruptor (hence no stun setting). She picked it up off the ground.

 

[Darvan]

It was a Romulan disruptor (hence no stun setting). She picked it up off the ground.

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Sorry man I watched the scene a couple of times there were 6 Romulan attackers in the room the seventh came from another room with his pistol drawn she also came from that same room with the Romulan disruptor it wouldn't have been on the ground since they were not fighting in that other room

 

[Himynameischris]

Sorry man I watched the scene a couple of times there were 6 Romulan attackers in the room the seventh came from another room with his pistol drawn she also came from that same room with the Romulan disruptor it wouldn't have been on the ground since they were not fighting in that other room

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That's just a continuity error

 

[Deleted member 14568]

not every minutiae needs to be explained just use your imagination lol that said the disruptor probably came from the romulan that got shot at 27:58

 

[Guppeth]

Sorry man I watched the scene a couple of times there were 6 Romulan attackers in the room the seventh came from another room with his pistol drawn she also came from that same room with the Romulan disruptor it wouldn't have been on the ground since they were not fighting in that other room

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At least one of them goes flying out of the room, and one of them is outside and gets shot through a window.

edit:

not every minutiae needs to be explained just use your imagination lol that said the disruptor probably came from the romulan that got shot at 27:58

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Yeah that one.

 

[Jag]

I was also wondering where she picked up a disruptor, but didn't care too much about it.

 

[Darvan]

not every minutiae needs to be explained just use your imagination lol that said the disruptor probably came from the romulan that got shot at 27:58

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Not that it needs to be explained the way the scene went down and how she acted lead me to believe she's a plant and or a spy.

 

[Geode]

I only disagree in that Luke's character state in TLJ is explained and his arc in the film is about him becoming the legend he has always been. By the end, he's Luke Skywalker, Jedi Master, again. But with Picard, I don't get the feeling this is some arc. Rather, this is simply the new Picard and how he will be for the rest of the series. It doesn't look so much like some arc or natural character state as the writers simply not knowing how to write Picard.

Click to shrink...

Nah, Luke's arc in the ST was terrible. At least Picard tried fighting for what he believed in and gambled with resigning, hoping to make a difference, but it failed. Only after retiring and being on his vineyard for a few years he started to feel depressed, but after meeting Dahj a spark reignited inside of which led to the events up to the end of episode 3. He has a purpose again and he doesn't need Starfleet to fulfill that purpose.

 

[Darvan]

At least one of them goes flying out of the room, and one of them is outside and gets shot through a window.

edit:

Yeah that one.

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Right I thought that too, but that's not the same area since the area the last attacker and scientist enter from was in doors no windows this area is the same place the guy comes in from to Picard and the lady with his goody bag. I think Himynameischris is right and it's a continuity error but as I said at first I said to myself okay she's a plant cause that doesn't make sense

 

[Himynameischris]

I mean some still believe she might be because she met with the commodore but didn't show their discussion, but I don't think this scene was meant to show that in any way.

 

[Deleted member 14568]

dr Jurati definitely come from the same door as the 27:57 guy the shelve match

 

[Teiresias]

I don't know if anyone ever did the math, but I always figured Michael Dorn probably held the record for the actor that played their Star Trek character in the most episodes, just on account of TNG, the movies, and DS9, but I guess with this show Stewart may pass him.

 

[QuigleyMcShine]

There's definitely some hints that something might be up with Dr Jurati - whether it's a misdirect or not - but I don't think any of it is supposed to come from the fight choreography.

I don't know if anyone ever did the math, but I always figured Michael Dorn probably held the record for the actor that played their Star Trek character in the most episodes, just on account of TNG, the movies, and DS9, but I guess with this show Stewart may pass him.

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It'll probably still be Dorn. Even if Picard goes three seasons they'll each be less than half as long as a DS9 season.

 

[antonz]

I don't know if anyone ever did the math, but I always figured Michael Dorn probably held the record for the actor that played their Star Trek character in the most episodes, just on account of TNG, the movies, and DS9, but I guess with this show Stewart may pass him.

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Dorn has made 282 appearances as Worf.

 

[Guppeth]

I don't know if anyone ever did the math, but I always figured Michael Dorn probably held the record for the actor that played their Star Trek character in the most episodes, just on account of TNG, the movies, and DS9, but I guess with this show Stewart may pass him.

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I think that's right. Although Majel Barrett was in way more episodes, if you count the various computers as a single character.

 

[Volimar]

I'd never actually thought about that record for Dorn. Good for him. Would love to see an aged Worf show up in Picard.

 

[firehawk12]

The leading AI scientist lady shows up and just happens to have a rifle to kill one of the attackers ?

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This is why I think she's a mole that will betray them all. lol

 

[BossAttack]

Nah, Luke's arc in the ST was terrible. At least Picard tried fighting for what he believed in and gambled with resigning, hoping to make a difference, but it failed. Only after retiring and being on his vineyard for a few years he started to feel depressed, but after meeting Dahj a spark reignited inside of which led to the events up to the end of episode 3. He has a purpose again and he doesn't need Starfleet to fulfill that purpose.

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Yeah, I don't feel like re-litigating TLJ in this thread. I'll just say I disagree.

 

[CrocM]

I Borg is one the greatest Star Trek episodes and that scene is masterful. It's a simple scene but also so dense with Picard's trauma and anger contrasted with Hugh regaining his humanity.

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Him needing a moment to compose himself, and "get into character" so to speak carried so much weight because you know how traumatic it all must be for him. He's a character that values objectivity and composure so much but he can't help but truly hate the Borg. The emotional swing from that to realizing Hugh is different, that the borg can be different, is so powerful.

 

[Volimar]

Every thread is a star wars thread.

 

[Phil me in]

I'm enjoying it so far even if it's a slow burner . This post nemesis start trek world where not as good Datas exist and were subsequently terminated just seems abit weird.

it also seems weird that there's some sub faction of the tal-Shiah that's sole per pose is to kill robots lol.

if they can make holograms as complex as the EMH, they why can't they build a robot body and have a holographic programme inside it? Star Trek logic can get really bad sometimes.

 

[GungHo]

Every thread is a star wars thread.

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So say we all.

 

[Joeytj]

I'm enjoying it so far even if it's a slow burner . This post nemesis start trek world where not as good Datas exist and were subsequently terminated just seems abit weird.

it also seems weird that there's some sub faction of the tal-Shiah that's sole per pose is to kill robots lol.

if they can make holograms as complex as the EMH, they why can't they build a robot body and have a holographic programme inside it? Star Trek logic can get really bad sometimes.

Click to shrink...

I always thought about that during VOY. The Doctor's programming seemed as or even more advanced than an Android. Although he wasn't able to store as much facts or calculations as Data (because the EMH wasn't designed for that), it was still an impressive AI. But, the whole point of the plot about mobile emitter from the future, is to show that it's incredible hard to compact the EMH's programming in a small physical device, even by the standards of late 24 century tech.

Of course, that didn't stop Voyager from being able to send the Doctor's programming to everywhere they pleased, as if it were a simple torrent file.