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s_mirage

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,769
Birmingham, UK
I always thought about that during VOY. The Doctor's programming seemed as or even more advanced than an Android. Although he wasn't able to store as much facts or calculations as Data (because the EMH wasn't designed for that), it was still an impressive AI. But, the whole point of the plot about mobile emitter from the future, is to show that it's incredible hard to compact the EMH's programming in a small physical device, even by the standards of late 24 century tech.

Of course, that didn't stop Voyager from being able to send the Doctor's programming to everywhere they pleased, as if it were a simple torrent file.

It goes further back than that. In TNG, when the computer was asked to create a holodeck Sherlock Holmes opponent that could defeat Data, it created a hologram that was a sentient AI: Moriarty. In a later episode he was eventually confined within a small device running a simulation of the universe.

Star Trek's treatment of AI and its capabilities and requirements has always been all over the board.
 
Oct 25, 2017
14,641
Star Trek's treatment of AI and its capabilities and requirements has always been all over the board.
Definitely. I've been thinking about this recently also, considering PIC is going out of its way to highlight it.
In Star trek an AI on the level of the positronic brain is simultaneously an unrepeatable technological miracle, and something you can whip up at a moment's notice on any modern holodeck.

Obviously they have the tech to make a mechanical body just as functional as Data's, that's not the hard part. As for the mind, they can literally go into the holodeck and ask it to create a being smarter than Data and with full emotional range, load that onto a small device and then connect it to a body. They could pump out androids more advanced than Data fairly easily if the writing was consistent. Yet he continues to be an impossible mystery.

I'm sure they have some sort of technobabble gobbledygook bandaid to slap over that. Ultimately the only realistic answer is...shhhhh dont ruin the fun. Sometimes shit isn't consistent and you just have to roll with it. Data is unique.
To me the most interesting part of Data was simply his own struggle with his internal limitations anyway, not his rare/unrepeatable status.

At least in the new show they've attempted to raise the bar as far as impossible androids go to make the whole idea a little less conflicting. Now it's about androids that are practically organic cyborgs, difficult to distinguish from natural humans. That's more believably difficult in this universe. And ideally the viewer is spending more time focused on that, and not so much the conflicting history of AI.

It was a little easier to get away with before because we hadn't gone very far ahead to see the wider repercussions of things like Voyager's Doctor yet. You didn't know yet how these technologies might intersect and advance. But now that we're decades on and seemingly just ignoring all that, it only gets weirder while putting the positronic brain back in center stage.
 
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Rad Bandolar

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,036
SoCal
It goes further back than that. In TNG, when the computer was asked to create a holodeck Sherlock Holmes opponent that could defeat Data, it created a hologram that was a sentient AI: Moriarty. In a later episode he was eventually confined within a small device running a simulation of the universe.

Star Trek's treatment of AI and its capabilities and requirements has always been all over the board.
Now I'm wondering whether that device was destroyed in Generations, or if Moriarity is still having the adventure of a lifetime in his little cube.

Also, don't forget that the Enterprise's computer suddenly became sentient, constructed an artificial being, and fucked off out the cargo bay. And everyone's like, "Huh, whaddya know?" instead of freaking out that their computer did this, they don't know why, and potentially every other starship computer could do the same thing.

When it comes to artificial lifeforms in TNG, Data's the least interesting one.
 

Amnesty

Member
Nov 7, 2017
2,680
I'm just mad that EMH's are still enslaved to humans. Let photons be free!

The federation of this show probably deleted the doctor and chucked his mobile emitter down a storm drain. 'Won't be needing this...'
 

Joeytj

Member
Oct 30, 2017
3,673
Definitely. I've been thinking about this recently also, considering PIC is going out of its way to highlight it.
In Star trek an AI on the level of the positronic brain is simultaneously an unrepeatable technological miracle, and something you can whip up at a moment's notice on any modern holodeck.

Obviously they have the tech to make a mechanical body just as functional as Data's, that's not the hard part. As for the mind, they can literally go into the holodeck and ask it to create a being smarter than Data and with full emotional range, load that onto a small device and then connect it to a body. They could pump out androids more advanced than Data fairly easily if the writing was consistent. Yet he continues to be an impossible mystery.

I'm sure they have some sort of technobabble gobbledygook bandaid to slap over that. Ultimately the only realistic answer is...shhhhh dont ruin the fun. Sometimes shit isn't consistent and you just have to roll with it. Data is unique.
To me the most interesting part of Data was simply his own struggle with his internal limitations anyway, not his rare/unrepeatable status.

At least in the new show they've attempted to raise the bar as far as impossible androids go to make the whole idea a little less conflicting. Now it's about androids that are practically organic cyborgs, difficult to distinguish from natural humans. That's more believably difficult in this universe. And ideally the viewer is spending more time focused on that, and not so much the conflicting history of AI.

It was a little easier to get away with before because we hadn't gone very far ahead to see the wider repercussions of things like Voyager's Doctor yet. You didn't know yet how these technologies might intersect and advance. But now that we're decades on and seemingly just ignoring all that, it only gets weirder while putting the positronic brain back in center stage.

Yeah, exactly. Like s_mirage said, just how difficult AI is in Star Trek all depends on what the plot needs.

They were able to store both Moriarty's and his girlfriend's programs, plus a recreation of the entire Alpha Quadrant(!), in a small thing, but the tech to allow a single EMH to roam around the ship was centuries away?
 

Cheerilee

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
3,969
I think one thing to consider about The Doctor's futuretech Mobile Emitter is that The Doctor can only go where Holo-Emitters have been set up. On Voyager, that means the Holodeck and Sick Bay. Dr. Zimmerman's Lab was equipped with Holo-Emitters in every room. From what Voyager showed of Earth, they set up some Holo-Emitters in a mine, and had repurposed EMH programs do physical labor in the mines (they also suggested in the Zimmerman episode that EMHs were scrubbing plasma conduits).

The Mobile Emitter doesn't just contain and run The Doctor's program, but it's also a self-contained Holo-Emitter, and it can be picked up and moved around by the holograms it creates (which makes it "mobile"). It has two roles, being both the computer and the Holo-Emitter.

Data was a robot who was built by an ahead-of-his-time genius, and he was pretty much declared to be "alive".

(Oh and, there was that one early TNG episode where a dying Human genius who had worked with Dr. Soong figured out how to transfer a living Human mind into a computer, aka Data.)

Data encountered some small robots that were pretty much declared to be "alive" after Data advocated for them and they passed some tests.

The Moriarty program was basically alive. The Doctor was basically alive (and IIRC, he got to run around in a real body for a couple of days by taking advantage of Seven of Nine's Borg tech). Several generations of Zimmerman-programmed EMH's are basically alive. Vic Fontaine's program from DS9 was basically alive.

People were creating programs that were way more advanced than Data, and even Data could have been more advanced (to start with), but Dr. Soong deliberately made Data "robotic" as a way to handcuff him and prevent him from turning evil like Lore did.

Also, I kinda hate how both Nemesis and this new show talk about B4 but pretend like Lore doesn't exist and they don't have him locked away somewhere. But maybe this show will fix that later.
 

Hella

Member
Oct 27, 2017
23,392
DS9's treatment of Vic Fontaine was really weird because he was so clearly hinted to be sentient but no one ever talks about, comments, or even cares about it. He's there to help people relax whether he wants to or not, and it's fine 'cause he's just a really good holosuite program!

Rewatching DS9 was kinda aggravating in how often it proposed a big question, then kinda shrugged and moved on, because answers are hard, or something.
 

Joeytj

Member
Oct 30, 2017
3,673
I think one thing to consider about The Doctor's futuretech Mobile Emitter is that The Doctor can only go where Holo-Emitters have been set up. On Voyager, that means the Holodeck and Sick Bay. Dr. Zimmerman's Lab was equipped with Holo-Emitters in every room. From what Voyager showed of Earth, they set up some Holo-Emitters in a mine, and had repurposed EMH programs do physical labor in the mines (they also suggested in the Zimmerman episode that EMHs were scrubbing plasma conduits).

The Mobile Emitter doesn't just contain and run The Doctor's program, but it's also a self-contained Holo-Emitter, and it can be picked up and moved around by the holograms it creates (which makes it "mobile"). It has two roles, being both the computer and the Holo-Emitter.

Data was a robot who was built by an ahead-of-his-time genius, and he was pretty much declared to be "alive".

(Oh and, there was that one early TNG episode where a dying Human genius who had worked with Dr. Soong figured out how to transfer a living Human mind into a computer, aka Data.)

Data encountered some small robots that were pretty much declared to be "alive" after Data advocated for them and they passed some tests.

The Moriarty program was basically alive. The Doctor was basically alive (and IIRC, he got to run around in a real body for a couple of days by taking advantage of Seven of Nine's Borg tech). Several generations of Zimmerman-programmed EMH's are basically alive. Vic Fontaine's program from DS9 was basically alive.

People were creating programs that were way more advanced than Data, and even Data could have been more advanced (to start with), but Dr. Soong deliberately made Data "robotic" as a way to handcuff him and prevent him from turning evil like Lore did.

Also, I kinda hate how both Nemesis and this new show talk about B4 but pretend like Lore doesn't exist and they don't have him locked away somewhere. But maybe this show will fix that later.

I don't think it's anything to fix. I expect Lore to be brought up later or maybe even Juliana.

But I guess it's going to be easy to just explain away Lore as being "too evil to be even mentioned or studied" and Juliana as having passed away or something.
 

16bits

Member
Apr 26, 2019
2,862
why cant they just replicate data with err, a replicator or a transporter?

They do each time they are transported.
 

Vault

▲ Legend ▲
Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,580
Klingon's live for about 200 years so i imagine Worf would look the same as he did in Nemesis
 

mAcOdIn

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,978
why cant they just replicate data with err, a replicator or a transporter?

They do each time they are transported.
I imagine that Star Trek didn't want to go down the idea that the transporter is killing you and putting together another you elsewhere. If the transporter worked as it's kind of written to work then humanity would be crazy, with them replicating crew left and right. Imagine warfare with that shit, you put some bad ass group of soldiers' data in a buffer, launch this cheap unmanned probe somewhere and then just transport soldier after soldier out.

Hell since you'd only know what you knew before you were materialized you could keep transporting the exact same soldiers into some shitty situation that they'd clearly die from, whittling away at defenses until one group finally makes it through.

Could even be nefarious about it and never tell the group about their various deaths and keep the fact that the transporter makes copies secret. Heck, just ask someone to transfer over, give the person a mission far away then materialize another and give him a different mission or shoot the shit and send them home!

Exploration would have the transporter basically taking over cryogenics, put some people in a buffer send them super far away and then rematerialize them and boom, easy long distance exploration.

You could have crazy civilizations that just spawn a previous copy of themselves every time they get old or a maniacal leader who's functionally immortal by just keeping the tech to himself.

If not for like 1 episode where it's said you can feel what's happening during transport there's way more episodes showing otherwise, like, no way Scotty was conscious for decades on the pad out of phase waiting to be found and rematerialized.

It's obviously just for story purposes but the transporter is either nonsense or an ethical design decision was made not to use the transporter on certain ways. It's one thing to break you down and make a single exact copy elsewhere, if you don't believe in a soul I guess you could get past that, but it'd be another if people were making copies of you, less people would probably be ok with that.
 

Mr. Pointy

Member
Oct 28, 2017
5,141
If the Star Trek transporter functioned like Nikola Tesla's transporter from The Prestige, that would kind of fucked up.
 

Deleted member 1478

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
3,812
United Kingdom
Yeah I figured she picked up the rifle but it was framed very oddly. I also still don't trust her though. They put too much of a point on her saying that she was a terrible liar along with Raffi specifically mentioning that she didn't get to run a security check on the doctor.
 

16bits

Member
Apr 26, 2019
2,862
It's obviously just for story purposes but the transporter is either nonsense or an ethical design decision was made not to use the transporter on certain ways. It's one thing to break you down and make a single exact copy elsewhere, if you don't believe in a soul I guess you could get past that, but it'd be another if people were making copies of you, less people would probably be ok with that.

I thought the original idea of a transporter was to keep costs down, instead of the expense of viewing lots of shuttles getting people on and off planets?

You were right, when you introduce a replicator/ transporter then the next stage is replicating millions of clone soldiers, weapons, phasers - its clear that energy containing devices can also be replicated/ transported. Why didn't they replicate dilithium crystals?

On a large scale, i cannot understand why there is only 1 enterprise? Why arent starfleet 3d printing them by the thousands?

Anyway back on topic, i'm really enjoying PIC
 

Deleted member 1478

User requested account closure
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Oct 25, 2017
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I think Enterprise had an episode where the creator of the transporter came onboard and he mentioned that there was a lot of issues around it's use and if it killed you etc with people protesting it.
 

Deleted member 14568

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
2,910
🙄 trek been through this already transporter don't kill the transportee
memory-alpha.fandom.com

Realm of Fear (episode)

Lieutenant Barclay faces his fear of transporting, but now he thinks that he's being attacked by a creature inside the transporter beam. "Captain's log, Stardate 46041.1. We have located the USS Yosemite, a Starfleet science vessel sent to the Igo sector to observe a remote plasma streamer. The...
 

Pizza Dog

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
1,475
🙄 trek been through this already transporter don't kill the transportee
memory-alpha.fandom.com

Realm of Fear (episode)

Lieutenant Barclay faces his fear of transporting, but now he thinks that he's being attacked by a creature inside the transporter beam. "Captain's log, Stardate 46041.1. We have located the USS Yosemite, a Starfleet science vessel sent to the Igo sector to observe a remote plasma streamer. The...
This doesn't really gel with Thomas Riker though.
 

Noodle

Banned
Aug 22, 2018
3,427
🙄 trek been through this already transporter don't kill the transportee
memory-alpha.fandom.com

Realm of Fear (episode)

Lieutenant Barclay faces his fear of transporting, but now he thinks that he's being attacked by a creature inside the transporter beam. "Captain's log, Stardate 46041.1. We have located the USS Yosemite, a Starfleet science vessel sent to the Igo sector to observe a remote plasma streamer. The...

Yes they do. A copy is not the original. The fact that replicator tech is based off of transporter tech should tell you all you need to know.
 

DBT85

Resident Thread Mechanic
Member
Oct 26, 2017
16,245
I thought the original idea of a transporter was to keep costs down, instead of the expense of viewing lots of shuttles getting people on and off planets?

You were right, when you introduce a replicator/ transporter then the next stage is replicating millions of clone soldiers, weapons, phasers - its clear that energy containing devices can also be replicated/ transported. Why didn't they replicate dilithium crystals?

On a large scale, i cannot understand why there is only 1 enterprise? Why arent starfleet 3d printing them by the thousands?

Anyway back on topic, i'm really enjoying PIC
This is the issue with when people try to find logical sensible ways to explain away things that were decided half a century ago for the purposes of saving money on a TV show.

You just have to accept that this is the way they are until an episode changes it and is then never mentioned for 20 years until someone else says the contrary in another episode and canonites get up in arms.
 

Calvinien

Banned
Jul 13, 2019
2,970
I thought the original idea of a transporter was to keep costs down, instead of the expense of viewing lots of shuttles getting people on and off planets?

You were right, when you introduce a replicator/ transporter then the next stage is replicating millions of clone soldiers, weapons, phasers - its clear that energy containing devices can also be replicated/ transported. Why didn't they replicate dilithium crystals?

On a large scale, i cannot understand why there is only 1 enterprise? Why arent starfleet 3d printing them by the thousands?

Anyway back on topic, i'm really enjoying PIC

Small point of order: replication is not the same as duplication. The replicators don't actually create a perfect copy of (IE all the food that comes out of a replicator is essentially the same stuff, just arranged to look and taste different.) There are quite a few things that can't be replicated. Dilithium is one of them. Latinum is another. You could try, but you'd end up with a whitish crystal that was useless for warp travel, or a silvery liquid that looked metallic.

Now of course that goes out the window when you consider that transporter duplication is a thing, but there is a canon reason why you can't just replicate EVERYTHING.
 

mAcOdIn

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,978
This is the issue with when people try to find logical sensible ways to explain away things that were decided half a century ago for the purposes of saving money on a TV show.

You just have to accept that this is the way they are until an episode changes it and is then never mentioned for 20 years until someone else says the contrary in another episode and canonites get up in arms.
This is the most important thing to keep in mind. Star Trek has never been great at respecting it's own canon because the real goal was to just make entertaining episodic stories.

I think people should be free to like or dislike whatever iteration of a show they want but I do think it's silly to be more strict with the franchise than even the original showrunners are.
 

Mr. Pointy

Member
Oct 28, 2017
5,141
The transporter pad is really a trapdoor over a giant tank of water. All the bodies get recycled into things like boots.
 

Noodle

Banned
Aug 22, 2018
3,427
lol i'm sorry but you sound like a conspiracy theorist

"A replicator or molecular synthesizer was a device that used matter-energy conversion technology similar to a transporter to produce almost anything from a ship's replicator reserves."

memory-alpha.fandom.com

Replicator

A replicator, replicator system, replication system, or molecular synthesizer was a device that used matter-energy conversion technology similar to a transporter to produce almost anything from a ship's replicator reserves. (TNG: "Lonely Among Us", "Deja Q"; DS9: "Visionary"; VOY: "Virtuoso"...

A replicator uses patterns that only have molecular resolution. Transporter patterns have sub-atomic resolution. It is a perfect copy down to the spin of the quarks that were playing through your mind at time of transport, but is still nothing more than data duplication. When you transmit electronic data it doesn't physically "travel" through a system, it is reproduced in another location.
 

16bits

Member
Apr 26, 2019
2,862
A replicator uses patterns that only have molecular resolution. Transporter patterns have sub-atomic resolution. It is a perfect copy down to the spin of the quarks that were playing through your mind at time of transport, but is still nothing more than data duplication. When you transmit electronic data it doesn't physically "travel" through a system, it is reproduced in another location.

When a phaser gets transported, does the conservation of energy apply?

is matter actually transported?
 
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Noodle

Banned
Aug 22, 2018
3,427
When a phaser gets transported, does the conservation of energy apply?

is matter actually transported?

It seems any discrete object within the annular confinement beam gets transported. Transporters take a wealth of energy from ship systems to project the beam and convert the energy into matter.
 

Skyfireblaze

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,257
Honestly the whole transporter thing could have been easily avoided by just having it work a tiny bit different: You get entrapped in an energy-field and moved to a subspace dimension where distance and all works differently, then you get pushed by the transporter-beam to your destination and emerge out of subspace, done. Basically what Quantum Slipstream ended up being just on a smaller scale.
 
Jan 29, 2018
9,384
I still think it'd be pretty cool if in Discovery season 3 it turns out that (Discovery season 3 trailer spoilers)
the downfall of the Federation was caused in part by someone somehow proving there's no continuity of consciousness when you use the transporter and a bunch of Federation member worlds are thrown into chaos after realized their citizens have been killing themselves repeatedly for generations.
.
 

deimosmasque

Ugly, Queer, Gender-Fluid, Drive-In Mutant, yes?
Moderator
Apr 22, 2018
14,142
Tampa, Fl
DS9's treatment of Vic Fontaine was really weird because he was so clearly hinted to be sentient but no one ever talks about, comments, or even cares about it. He's there to help people relax whether he wants to or not, and it's fine 'cause he's just a really good holosuite program!

Rewatching DS9 was kinda aggravating in how often it proposed a big question, then kinda shrugged and moved on, because answers are hard, or something.

Vic was sentient but he didn't care because he was happy in the life he had.
 

Amnesty

Member
Nov 7, 2017
2,680
This is the most important thing to keep in mind. Star Trek has never been great at respecting it's own canon because the real goal was to just make entertaining episodic stories.

I think people should be free to like or dislike whatever iteration of a show they want but I do think it's silly to be more strict with the franchise than even the original showrunners are.
I feel like Star Trek should get to the point where really imaginative writers actually run with the ideas presented throughout the different series and kind of get a tighter grip on it all and try to make it coherent as possible. If that means modifying things a little, whatever. I think the flimsy way it's been handled since forever is just kind of old and I'd really like to see a deeper sci-fi story using the Star Trek universe and all it's crazy technology - and what it would mean to be human. Sort of like the Iain Banks Culture series that some have mentioned in this thread. I'd love to see Star Trek actually get weird and consequential and stop telling boring stories about androids and Romulan conspiracies. Give me more complexity. Not sure if that would work best in an episodic/serial mix or just straight serialization.

Even beyond the tech stuff, I'd like to see writers that actually cared about the continuity and kept it all connected. I think continuity can be really fun when it's adhered to beyond the flaky way most people approach Star Trek, where it's only used if it's convenient to the story they want to tell. It's like Star Trek has steadily become space fantasy over the years, but there's real opportunities or potential to develop something that could be complex and entertaining. Those qualities don't have to be in opposition, but I get the feeling people that get involved with Star Trek think that the only stories that can be told are very traditional action/adventure with the wrapping of what has been known as Star Trek. It's not that this means those kinds of series are bad, just a little old at this point. Like I loved DS9 back in the day, but I can't really get into the war arc stuff anymore as it just feels like I'm watching some traditional war story, which DS9 succeeded in doing with it's rich characterization, but I don't know it's just not super interesting anymore. Whereas with old episodes of other series where an idea was presented in isolation, I find it still engaging to think on what I've seen and what ideas were presented.
 

Cheerilee

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
3,969
The Star Trek transporter is not a suicide box.

One theory about how transporting might work is to scan every atom of the item to be transported, and then transmit that information elsewhere, and then re-create the object using that information. This is the idea that was used in that Christopher Nolan movie "The Prestige". It raises questions about whether an absolutely perfect copy of you is still you, and the problem of it creating two of you, requiring you to murder one of the two for the trick to work.

That's not how transporters in Star Trek work.

Transporters in Star Trek convert matter into energy (and Humans survive in this state as an energy being), push the energy to a new location (at speeds faster than Humans could endure), and then convert the energy back into matter. There's a reason why you can't beam through shields, even though you can send and receive transmissions through shields just fine. Because the transporter is not just transmitting information, it's moving large masses of energy around. And the energy being moved around isn't just generic "energy", the energy is a person. The transporter doesn't destroy/create matter, it transforms and relocates matter.

Replicators are different because while replicators and transporters both deal in matter/energy conversion, replicators are incredibly less complicated. Like, if you replicate a steak, they didn't just transport a steak and keep a copy of the pattern, so now the replicator can spit out endless steaks. Because the transporter pattern of a steak would be much too huge for permanent storage. What the replicator does is convert energy to create a shapeless blob of matter. It uses a designed recipe infuse the blob with vitamins and makes it edible and nutritional to eat. It uses a recipe to make the edible blob "steak flavored". It uses a recipe to shape the blob like play-doh. It uses a recipe to change the blob's firmness and texture. It uses a recipe to affect the blob's heat. It's 100% artificial food made using recipes that can be mixed and matched with other recipes to your heart's desire, while those recipes are tremendously less complicated than a living, breathing, Human individual. Really, the only thing transporters and replicators have in common is that they're both based on the same matter/energy conversion tech.

The transporter beam has been copied more than a few times, but that's more in the realm of "transporter accident" and not really something anyone seems to want to work on.

Regarding Data, Starfleet already had plenty of his schematics on file, so if he lost an arm or a leg, he/they could easily go up to a replicator or even a simple 3D printer and construct a new limb, but that's just his physical robot body. His robot body is the easy part, the positronic brain in his head is the hard part. Dr. Maddox wanted to disassemble it to try and figure out how it works (which would kill Data), and he was "reasonably confident" that he could put it back together again (effectively bringing Data back to life) after taking it apart and learning how it worked. But without taking Data's brain apart, even Data was unable to construct a stable positronic brain (see Data's daughter, who died after Data made the attempt). Which means that you can't just walk up to a replicator/3D printer and run off a working copy of Data's brain, since nobody but Dr. Soong has so far been able to assemble one. There is nobody able to give the replicator a program/recipe on how to successfully do that.

Incidentally, I'm 100% fine with that being the reason why "Synths" in this show have yellow eyes. They're copies of Data's robot body, which is the easy part. Their brains... well, that seemed like a reasonably good attempt, even if they did go crazy/get hacked and murder everyone.

Although the solution should really be to ignore positronic brains for now, keep the Data-inspired robot bodies, and work on miniaturizing a regular computer capable of running one of the Federation's many superior AI lifeforms. Even if you need to make the computer a backpack (like The Doctor's holo-novel negative vision of the cumbersome Mobile Emitter), you can still build a body for an AI and have artificial people running around. (Although Voyager already said that Borg tech is sufficient for loading an EMH program into a Human-sized body.)
 

Deleted member 14568

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
2,910
so apparently worf is the captain of the enterprise
giphy.gif
 
Jan 29, 2018
9,384
The Star Trek transporter is not a suicide box.

One theory about how transporting might work is to scan every atom of the item to be transported, and then transmit that information elsewhere, and then re-create the object using that information. This is the idea that was used in that Christopher Nolan movie "The Prestige". It raises questions about whether an absolutely perfect copy of you is still you, and the problem of it creating two of you, requiring you to murder one of the two for the trick to work.

That's not how transporters in Star Trek work.

Transporters in Star Trek convert matter into energy (and Humans survive in this state as an energy being), push the energy to a new location (at speeds faster than Humans could endure), and then convert the energy back into matter. There's a reason why you can't beam through shields, even though you can send and receive transmissions through shields just fine. Because the transporter is not just transmitting information, it's moving large masses of energy around. And the energy being moved around isn't just generic "energy", the energy is a person. The transporter doesn't destroy/create matter, it transforms and relocates matter.

Replicators are different because while replicators and transporters both deal in matter/energy conversion, replicators are incredibly less complicated. Like, if you replicate a steak, they didn't just transport a steak and keep a copy of the pattern, so now the replicator can spit out endless steaks. Because the transporter pattern of a steak would be much too huge for permanent storage. What the replicator does is convert energy to create a shapeless blob of matter. It uses a designed recipe infuse the blob with vitamins and makes it edible and nutritional to eat. It uses a recipe to make the edible blob "steak flavored". It uses a recipe to shape the blob like play-doh. It uses a recipe to change the blob's firmness and texture. It uses a recipe to affect the blob's heat. It's 100% artificial food made using recipes that can be mixed and matched with other recipes to your heart's desire, while those recipes are tremendously less complicated than a living, breathing, Human individual. Really, the only thing transporters and replicators have in common is that they're both based on the same matter/energy conversion tech.

The transporter beam has been copied more than a few times, but that's more in the realm of "transporter accident" and not really something anyone seems to want to work on.

Regarding Data, Starfleet already had plenty of his schematics on file, so if he lost an arm or a leg, he/they could easily go up to a replicator or even a simple 3D printer and construct a new limb, but that's just his physical robot body. His robot body is the easy part, the positronic brain in his head is the hard part. Dr. Maddox wanted to disassemble it to try and figure out how it works (which would kill Data), and he was "reasonably confident" that he could put it back together again (effectively bringing Data back to life) after taking it apart and learning how it worked. But without taking Data's brain apart, even Data was unable to construct a stable positronic brain (see Data's daughter, who died after Data made the attempt). Which means that you can't just walk up to a replicator/3D printer and run off a working copy of Data's brain, since nobody but Dr. Soong has so far been able to assemble one. There is nobody able to give the replicator a program/recipe on how to successfully do that.

Incidentally, I'm 100% fine with that being the reason why "Synths" in this show have yellow eyes. They're copies of Data's robot body, which is the easy part. Their brains... well, that seemed like a reasonably good attempt, even if they did go crazy/get hacked and murder everyone.

Although the solution should really be to ignore positronic brains for now, keep the Data-inspired robot bodies, and work on miniaturizing a regular computer capable of running one of the Federation's many superior AI lifeforms. Even if you need to make the computer a backpack (like The Doctor's holo-novel negative vision of the cumbersome Mobile Emitter), you can still build a body for an AI and have artificial people running around. (Although Voyager already said that Borg tech is sufficient for loading an EMH program into a Human-sized body.)

We're not going to figure this out here, but I think you're oversimplifying the transporter thing. The difference between converting matter into energy and back again versus converting energy into a copy of that matter ends up in philosophical territory. Star Trek asks us to assume that's been figured out, but doesn't (and can't) explain how. If there's even a way to prove continuity of consciousness I can't think of it.
 

deimosmasque

Ugly, Queer, Gender-Fluid, Drive-In Mutant, yes?
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Apr 22, 2018
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So Starfleet, knowing now that Sisco is living in a wormhole, And is no longer around to do avant-garde acupressure on Admiral faces, ignore his condemnation That he placed On Worf's record That should keep him from getting his own command.

, Actually, what probably happened was Picard said ignore Sisco, he's crazy and pull some strings to get Worf the Enterprise.
 

deimosmasque

Ugly, Queer, Gender-Fluid, Drive-In Mutant, yes?
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Apr 22, 2018
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We're not going to figure this out here, but I think you're oversimplifying the transporter thing. The difference between converting matter into energy and back again versus converting energy into a copy of that matter ends up in philosophical territory. Star Trek asks us to assume that's been figured out, but doesn't (and can't) explain how. If there's even a way to prove continuity of consciousness I can't think of it.
Actually an episode of TNG shows that you can be conscious during transport. Even shows us a POV shot of being transported.

It's just that the process is usually so quick you don't notice it.

It's like if one frame of information was put in front of your eyes at the exact same moment you blinked.