Star Trek: Picard - Season 1 |OT| Re-ENGAGE!

UltraMagnus

Member
Oct 27, 2017
9,190
TNG didn't have constant resets. There are several arcs throughout the series, they're just not capital S serialized drama format. What is up with people fake newsing the show and inaccurately assessing it for what it was.

I mean, speaking of overdone, I think we are in peak exhaustion of serialization as a compelling format these days. It's been over a decade of it being the dominant form and it's honestly a little boring now. For all the talk in recent years of a golden age of television it feels kind of stagnant. I'd really love to see some variety in how stories are told through longer form narratives and it's like we're stuck in serialization for the foreseeable future.
DS9 also had overarching meta-arcs. So even that isn't something radically new.
 

auicc

Avenger
Oct 27, 2017
268
Everyone talking about wanting to go back to the TNG days and I am thinking, "I never want to see a ship become self aware and wants to kill the crew" story ever again. I swear they did that in all the series.
 

thediamondage

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,793
Meanwhile, though I did enjoy much of what we got to see on Vashti, am I alone in finding there was... kind of an odd, orientalist vibe to things? Like, it almost feels as though they're modelling the collapse of the Romulan Empire on various, early 20th century imperial collapses, including Imperial China and the Ottoman Empire. It's 'the frontier' not so much for being unexplored, but lawless, governed more by warlords and religious sects, peace maintained by 'rangers' stretched beyond their means.
I do struggle with finding what kind of themes the show is trying to setup. Usually these sci fi shows try to take modern problems and extrapolate them into the future to show possibilities, like I love the way The Expanse plays with factions and politics anmd has modern parallels with race, immigration, borders, class, etc.

I can't really draw many parallels between modern day political hot potatoes like immigration in America, the Syrian/European refugee crisis, Palestine/Israel, etc. If anything the Romulan vs. Starfleet thing kind of reminds me of american politics in the last decade: The Romulans are midwesterns who face a sudden calamity (opoids, manufacturing job loss) and Starfleet is the political elite who tell them they will help them but abandon them when things get rough. So the Romulans are bitter and angry and turn to something they don't fully understand (Borg Cube / Trump) for vengeance. Soji/Narek are the next generation who will either save or destroy both sides.

I don't really think the show is trying to go there but its kind of funny how it fits that narrative so much.
 

SolidChamp

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,900
I passed out halfway through ep 4 and I’m never one to complain about slow pacing in anything. Holy fucking shit what a boring episode. I’ll try getting back to it today, but for me it’s this episode that has cemented the feeling that this show doesn’t have the slightest clue as to what it wants to be.
 

JonnyDBrit

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,562
I do struggle with finding what kind of themes the show is trying to setup. Usually these sci fi shows try to take modern problems and extrapolate them into the future to show possibilities, like I love the way The Expanse plays with factions and politics anmd has modern parallels with race, immigration, borders, class, etc.

I can't really draw many parallels between modern day political hot potatoes like immigration in America, the Syrian/European refugee crisis, Palestine/Israel, etc. If anything the Romulan vs. Starfleet thing kind of reminds me of american politics in the last decade: The Romulans are midwesterns who face a sudden calamity (opoids, manufacturing job loss) and Starfleet is the political elite who tell them they will help them but abandon them when things get rough. So the Romulans are bitter and angry and turn to something they don't fully understand (Borg Cube / Trump) for vengeance. Soji/Narek are the next generation who will either save or destroy both sides.

I don't really think the show is trying to go there but its kind of funny how it fits that narrative so much.
The Romulans as middle eastern refugees is a blatant thing, particularly given the show is more broadly wrapped up in Patrick Stewart's own reaction to the general right wing shift in Western countries. But the aesthetic trappings of it are more wrapped up in the dressings of earlier conflicts, I find. Hence the Hub on Vashti looks more like an actual town, than a tent town.
 

nekkid

Member
Oct 27, 2017
10,068
What’s this thing in Star Trek now where they use a turning camera whenever they’re in space?

Just hold it straight ffs.
 

CommodoreKong

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,249
given that a computer can do everything faster than any human it's stupid that anyone ever pilots their own ships, fires their own weapons or cycles their own shield frequencies. But it would be a bit boring.
Star Wars is even worse when it comes to this, Battle Droids should be extremely accurate and it should be pretty easy to shoot down starfighters with computer controlled laser cannons.
 

CD_93

Member
Dec 12, 2017
995
Lancashire, United Kingdom
I can't wait for the loop to complete with the arrival of the first post wishing Discovery back so we can get back to some fast paced Trek.

Would have meant a delay but I wish this could have been a full series drop. Can see myself appreciate the whole thing more than the individual episodes so far.

Next episode looks fun though. Albeit halfway through the series.
 
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Oct 29, 2017
487
Everyone talking about wanting to go back to the TNG days and I am thinking, "I never want to see a ship become self aware and wants to kill the crew" story ever again. I swear they did that in all the series.
But what if I‘m nostalgic for shuttle crash and holodeck malfunction episodes, bonus points if the main characters foreheads are surgically altered to look like cheap alien make up.
 

EarlGreyHot

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,253
Bring back the 'bottle' episodes! Those were always my favourites

The Drumhead
Clues
Where Silence Has Lease

(Bottle episodes were episodes in which no new sets were constructed. So everyone stayed on the Enterprise)
 
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Vault

Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,892
Star Trek went full anime this episode

Incest and Ninja Samurai's

also fitting they introduced a Voyager character by blowing up a shuttle.
 
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Amnesty

Member
Nov 7, 2017
1,035
Everyone talking about wanting to go back to the TNG days and I am thinking, "I never want to see a ship become self aware and wants to kill the crew" story ever again. I swear they did that in all the series.
I would love to see a series that explores the implications and consequences of complex AI, seeing as how that’s actually a relevant thing to do in a sci fi series. Except instead of turning hostile I think it would be more accurate for a sufficiently advanced AI to not even really consider us much at all.

Some seem to think Star Trek would be ruined if it actually delved into the implications of its tech but I think that’s merely a lack of imagination at work and is part of what holds it back in general. There’s this weird conservatism to wanting to keep these kinds of shows focused on the same old action/adventure with a parochial humanism defining the characters. I see ‘It doesn’t need to be TNG’ again and again, but that’s missing the point I think - because this series is still doing dated things, it still feels old. It is extremely traditional. The thing is though is TNG has interesting Ideas and concepts at work in various episodes. Bring that back and expand on it, instead of just a telling a cliche ridden bland story.
 

xyla

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,436
Germany
I'm just not at a point where I can trust the show with any decision it makes.

For example I couldn't help but roll my eyes at 7 because it feels just like very convenient writing of an old favorite into the show - maybe it's a lot better than I suspect in the next episode. However right now, while it's great that she's back, the set up is not very well written.

The way Picard was set up as the savior of the refugee camp with the Ninja Nuns (again, what?) and as soon as he turns his back on it, it all goes to shit just looks like some colonialism. Especially combined with his outfit in the flashback.

We should also believe that he turned his back on the boy for the last decade and didn't continue visiting or at least getting information about how he's doing? And at the same time we are set up to feel for Picard in that it's hard for him to be back?

Also if his little tantrum in the bar leads to the camp getting more inclusive again I don't know that I'm gonna do.

That said, I don't hate the show. Loved the little bit with the newest hologram being a badass Spanish version of the captain - very random but also kind of charming.

It just don't trust the writing one bit so far.
 
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Amnesty

Member
Nov 7, 2017
1,035
The way Picard was set up as the savior of the refugee camp with the Ninja Nuns (again, what?) and as soon as he turns his back on it, it all goes to shit just looks like some colonialism.
It does all seem pretty paternalistic.

Show is trying really hard to say 'look Picard isn't he a flawed man because of his self righteous attitude', but then immediately undercuts it by just making him not do anything differently and just be some asshole who comes to fix something and ends up breaking it more and half heartedly takes responsibility. He also has a warrior servant I guess?
 

Speevy

Member
Oct 26, 2017
8,382
Jean-Luc Picard from TNG is known for being a morally strong character, by the books to a fault, often torn between what he feels is his unwavering duty toward Starfleet and what is the right thing to do. Always has angels on his shoulder in the form of his crew. He is respected for being a good listener and a kind of father figure. He is someone who leads by example, not by fear. He is the leader, or representative of Starfleet and flew its flagship for decades. He trusted their mission even without a ship, and without a crew.

Now he is in his 80s? 90s? He feels betrayed and disillusioned. He's dying. The organization he fought for didn't fight for him. His friends are either dead or scattered to remote places, unable or unwilling to help him.

Plus he encounters a whole new group of people who he wouldn't even be around were it not for their association with someone he knew decades before.

I don't know what, if anything people expect from this Jean-Luc Picard that isn't evident in the character, but I think this is some of the best work Stewart has done while playing the character.
 

Amnesty

Member
Nov 7, 2017
1,035
His friends are either dead or scattered to remote places, unable or unwilling to help him.
That isn't true at all? He didn't even want to tell his friends. Like Geordi, the other best friend to Data.

I think I would like to see a Picard who doesn't just blunder around while seemingly wanting to make things right for the people he feels guilty and responsibility for. Instead of re-inlficting trauma, I'd like to see a Picard intelligent enough to know that provoking a bunch of Romulans in a refugee town may be a bad idea, not because of the danger, but because there would be a lot of complex reasons why they wouldn't want non romulans around. So like, maybe a Picard who if talking doesn't work (which he barely even tried for), walks away instead of trying to provoke them. Otherwise he does just seem like a righteous colonial asshole. Doubly so when he's just like 'okay sorry about that, see ya!'

All this 'X happened, Time passed, he's old now' is uninteresting reasoning, because it relies on so much we haven't seen. It's all ellipses. 'btw he's different now' is not really all that engaging in terms of storytelling. I also really disagree with this notion that a person can't be stalwart and resilient in their character without it being buttressed by previous supports in their life, like it's all dependant on transitory life circumstances that once gone they'll lose whoever they were. Personal change isn't just circumstances change and then you're different person, change is a lot more gradated and nuanced and you don't just lose significant aspects of who you are over time, outside of extreme trauma.
 
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Speevy

Member
Oct 26, 2017
8,382
I'm not calling something interesting or uninteresting, but characters to me should behave in unpredictable ways, perhaps contrary to their reputations.

I don't know whether Star Trek Picard is a good show, but whatever it does, I don't think it will ultimately end up doing any harm to how we think of Picard. Rather, I think it will be a very touching sendoff, even if we don't necessarily care for all the settings and missions and new characters.
 

Amnesty

Member
Nov 7, 2017
1,035
characters to me should behave in unpredictable ways, perhaps contrary to their reputations.
Why?

Also, Picard doesn't have a reputation - he has a previously witnessed life. Reputation is something idealized, we can actually look back on instances of Picard's life and speak to the truth of them, we don't have to rely on a reputation. We can examine it for what it was.
 

Speevy

Member
Oct 26, 2017
8,382
Because often what people want them to do stops the story cold, or is contrary to the ultimate growth the writer is hoping to achieve. If Picard is always just gonna do what he has always done, then by all the conversations about him in this thread, he'll always have the right answer. I would prefer that Jean-Luc Picard, if he is still out there exploring the galaxy does things that are surprising but ultimately lead back to the core of the character people loved 40 years ago.

I was a huge fan of Star Trek: The Next Generation to the point where I can barely watch anything Star Trek that doesn't look like that show (which makes this one challenging).

However, I still love it every time he's on screen and I think he's playing this tired, old man with all the respect he deserves.
 

Amnesty

Member
Nov 7, 2017
1,035
Because often what people want them to do stops the story cold, or is contrary to the ultimate growth the writer is hoping to achieve. If Picard is always just gonna do what he has always done, then by all the conversations about him in this thread, he'll always have the right answer. I would prefer that Jean-Luc Picard, if he is still out there exploring the galaxy does things that are surprising but ultimately lead back to the core of the character people loved 40 years ago.

I was a huge fan of Star Trek: The Next Generation to the point where I can barely watch anything Star Trek that doesn't look like that show (which makes this one challenging).

However, I still love it every time he's on screen and I think he's playing this tired, old man with all the respect he deserves.
But how has the story stopped cold, What do you mean? Is there really no way that one could develop a character from prior instances into something different without a time skip?

I think the thing for me is, is that it's entirely predictable what they've done with him despite wanting to do something different. I think a more nuanced character change or growth could come from taking who Picard has been and instead of 'time passed, he's old now, etc' as the foundation of this change, actually put the Picard we've seen before through new circumstances and show him gradually change.

And I mean, Picard never always had the right answer. That's not what he was about in TNG. It's more that in a way he was about extolling the virtues of rationalism, which I think in times like these is a much needed virtue!

I think it's mythologizing him to say that he was a righteous paragon in that series. By doing this people are creating a negative reputation for him to serve their rhetorical claims surrounding how this show is deconstructing what was once there. But who Picard used to be wasn't just some monolithic force that displayed no weakness or regret or vulnerability.
 

Doggg

Member
Nov 17, 2017
5,285
I was hoping this episode would be more fun than it was from previews, although it finally got good at the end. I feel like this next one might be more satisfying, from the looks of the pimp outfit.
 

GungHo

Member
Nov 27, 2017
1,407
For example I couldn't help but roll my eyes at 7 because it feels just like very convenient writing of an old favorite into the show - maybe it's a lot better than I suspect in the next episode. However right now, while it's great that she's back, the set up is not very well written.
It's the same way Worf showed up for First Contact.
 

Happenstance

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,416
United Kingdom
Worf showing up in First Contact made loads of sense given what the Defiant was originally designed for and having the person from DS9 with the most Borg experience command it.

I don’t understand why there is even complaint about 7 showing up yet given that we haven’t even heard the reason. It’s just pre-emptive moaning.
 

CrocM

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,425
My originally low expectations continue to be met and at time exceeded. Really liking the show!

Don't mind the slow pace one bit because extended dialogue scenes are where PStew shines
 

DrForester

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,963
I'm disappointed that Picard called her Seven of Nine and not Annika.

Worf showing up in First Contact made loads of sense given what the Defiant was originally designed for and having the person from DS9 with the most Borg experience command it.

I don’t understand why there is even complaint about 7 showing up yet given that we haven’t even heard the reason. It’s just pre-emptive moaning.

I'm not so much concerned about her being in the show. If the Borg are involved, it makes all the sense in the world for her to have some role in the story.

I'm curious about why she's piloting some random ship, and not teaching somewhere on Earth, or doing something with her extensive skills. I'm guessing she's part of that rangers group that was mentioned protecting the sector. But why would she be doing that?

Given that the Federation has disgraced itself, it dawns on me that all of our characters from TNG, DS9, and VOY either...

- Abandoned their morals to stay in Starfleet*
- Left starfleet and retired because they're old
- Left starfleet and became destitute because they're young

* - Janeway's still an admiral because letting an entire race die would totally be her thing.
 

Vault

Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,892
letting entire races die is Star Fleets Prime directive.

They love to take the moral high ground and do nothing whilst civilisations die.
 

JonnyDBrit

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,562
I'm disappointed that Picard called her Seven of Nine and not Annika.




I'm not so much concerned about her being in the show. If the Borg are involved, it makes all the sense in the world for her to have some role in the story.

I'm curious about why she's piloting some random ship, and not teaching somewhere on Earth, or doing something with her extensive skills. I'm guessing she's part of that rangers group that was mentioned protecting the sector. But why would she be doing that?

Given that the Federation has disgraced itself, it dawns on me that all of our characters from TNG, DS9, and VOY either...

- Abandoned their morals to stay in Starfleet*
- Left starfleet and retired because they're old
- Left starfleet and became destitute because they're young

* - Janeway's still an admiral because letting an entire race die would totally be her thing.
Honestly, this is an interesting paradigm to think about. Because as I previously mentioned, this isn't a Starfleet show. But with our cast so firmly established outside of it, there's no clear indication as to what, if any, 'next generation', for lack of a better term, would be. That may be something to be resolved by later seasons, but given the various stated concerns over the future of the organisation, it's a notable omission that we don't really have any character actually tied to said future as of yet.
 

Amnesty

Member
Nov 7, 2017
1,035
Seven is there because her husband Chakotay died in combat protecting the Romulans from the evil corporation called 'The Federation', who also deleted her dear friend Joe the Doctor. Torn between sides and wanting to hold true to their legacies, Seven protects those attacked by both Romulan racists and Federation corporate officers.
 

Amnesty

Member
Nov 7, 2017
1,035
Come to think of it, it was kind of weird that Chakotay and Seven got together after him and Janeway

had a baby

Guess it was that old Voyager reset button
 

Cheerilee

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,079
He could have at least called her "Seven". Calling her Seven Of Nine just comes off as the writers thinking the audience is too stupid to know who she is.


Then again, did they ever say Hugh's name last week?
The show's kind of all over the place with what it expects the audience to know.

They really should have started with a voice clip of TNG-era Majel Barrett saying "Last time on Star Trek" and then showed some quick clips from the various TV shows and movies (Data stuff, Picard stuff, Romulan stuff, Borg stuff). Then cut to Picard and Data playing cards in Picard's dream.
 

firehawk12

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,240
The show's kind of all over the place with what it expects the audience to know.

They really should have started with a voice clip of TNG-era Majel Barrett saying "Last time on Star Trek" and then showed some quick clips from the various TV shows and movies (Data stuff, Picard stuff, Romulan stuff, Borg stuff). Then cut to Picard and Data playing cards in Picard's dream.
I feel like after doing that on Discovery, they couldn't really do the gimmick again. lol
 

Alexandros

Member
Oct 26, 2017
8,261
I'm sure this will get better, but at the same time I can't help but feel I just want a "normal" Star Trek show that succeeds the TNG/Voyager time line and stops going back to the past eras (sorry Enterprise, sorry Discovery).

TNG is by far the most successful thing ST has ever done, not sure why they are continually stubbornly bent on never revisiting that successful formula.
Who knows how these decisions get made. My best guess is that JJ's Star Wars-like aesthetic and style was successful recently so they just follow that.
 

Vault

Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,892
The TNG formula was a huge ratings winner in the late 80's early 90's but by the turn of the millennium everyone had turned off and Star Trek died.



I would love a new show to have the traditional Star Trek format but don't think that will ever happen.