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Amnesty

Member
Nov 7, 2017
2,684
that's a great answer
The problem I have with this answer is that he talks about a potential quadrillion population but then invokes the dominion war, of which the losses were like what... in the tens of millions? is that really that costly then? It's sort of the issue I have with the idea of the ex borg being outright hated. It works in Voyager, with many of the races being decimated by the Borg and then hating even ex Borg. But the Federation were never breached by the Borg, they were defeated before they were ever able to have any significant impact. Would people really just outright revile them, or would they be relieved at seeing people they potentially cared about come back to them? I think there's more nuance here to all of this than is being portrayed.

Not that I believe there to be some 'downfall' portrayed in Picard, they of course just want to focus on the outlying aspects. Which is fine, if only a little wanting, formally.

It's just all quite vague. I mean, among the straw man of whatever revisionist moral high ground thing he's talking about that never actually happened at any time. I guess it's just weird seeing this kind of righteousness, of which the DS9 writers were inflected with, that tackles some imagined foe in the form of some pure unadulterated naive utopia that they just needed to dismantle. Or something, I doni't know. It just seems like a really shallow part of Star Trek, this need to face some enemy that was never there. A perfection that was never real in the first place. It's a kind of conservative impulse I think.
 

Ballpoint Ren

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
1,425
Canada
Watch the show. The issue with the androids is kind of the whole point of the show. Those androids in the clip (I'm assuming you saw the clip of the Mars attack) were made so that they didn't have the sentience of Data but it was still a controversial decision.

Yeah that was the one. Idk, if they were made with the goal to not have sentience then what's the purpose of making them have a humanoid appearance? A group of beings made of be subservient by design doesn't seem morally right either. I guess I should check out the show now eh?
 
Oct 25, 2017
8,616
I mean voyager ended with the EMHs doing hard labor inside a mine after the Doctor was granted rights for his creative works. And of course they are humanoid, they want them to perform tasks that other humans do,
 

Kal Shintar

Member
Dec 11, 2018
322
Wasn't the whole point of Data's trial in The Measure of a Man (back in TNG) to prove that Data was a person?
No, the point of the trial was Data was StarFleets property and should be turned over to Maddox. The Judge speciffiacally states that she isnt goingt to determine Data's person hood, merely that Data is not Starfleets property and can not be compelled to turn himself over to Maddox.
 

Joeytj

Member
Oct 30, 2017
3,673
The problem I have with this answer is that he talks about a potential quadrillion population but then invokes the dominion war, of which the losses were like what... in the tens of millions? is that really that costly then? It's sort of the issue I have with the idea of the ex borg being outright hated. It works in Voyager, with many of the races being decimated by the Borg and then hating even ex Borg. But the Federation were never breached by the Borg, they were defeated before they were ever able to have any significant impact. Would people really just outright revile them, or would they be relieved at seeing people they potentially cared about come back to them? I think there's more nuance here to all of this than is being portrayed.

Not that I believe there to be some 'downfall' portrayed in Picard, they of course just want to focus on the outlying aspects. Which is fine, if only a little wanting, formally.

It's just all quite vague. I mean, among the straw man of whatever revisionist moral high ground thing he's talking about that never actually happened at any time. I guess it's just weird seeing this kind of righteousness, of which the DS9 writers were inflected with, that tackles some imagined foe in the form of some pure unadulterated naive utopia that they just needed to dismantle. Or something, I doni't know. It just seems like a really shallow part of Star Trek, this need to face some enemy that was never there. A perfection that was never real in the first place. It's a kind of conservative impulse I think.

I don't think tens of millions are anything to scoff at. Even if it wasn't a large percentage, the war should've left a big scar in the average citizen. At least, DS9 made it seem so. It doesn't have to make sense in our world, with numbers and everything, but for the sake of the story, it's just like any big war on Earth. And the same thing with the Borg. Who knows if the majority of the people haven't seen a Borg or really don't care about xBs. But you guess that most citizens would have a basic sense about them being extremely dangerous.

But what's conservative? Not believing that utopia is achievable? I mean, none of the writers are conservative at all.

I think it's more conservative to imagine a utopia without showing how it's actually achieved, thinking that's it's just something that will happened sooner or later and we should all just be hopeful about it, like what TNG did for so long.

I mean, you're right, the utopia was a thin aspect of Star Trek that was never actually that thought out, but it was used as a device for pushing those morality lessons each episodes, putting the enlighten humans against savage aliens all the time.

Even the use of money wasn't actually well-thought until TNG. We see references to buying, selling, and credits through TOS, the movies and later.

But it was nonetheless something that took over the narrative of what Star Trek was about. I mean, just look at how fans react to even the slightest indication that there are problems with the Federation. No wonder writers feel the urge to challenge the notion.
 

xyla

Member
Oct 27, 2017
8,386
Germany
That's on Rios, all he has to do is reactive his damn EMH to get the deets.

On the plus side, Hugh saw through Narek's plainly transparent spy business--he just wasn't in a position to do anything about it.

But we've seen the EMH reactivate itself before - why doesn't it now? How can she even think she'll be getting away with this when there is evidence of what she did?

This is so poorly written. The romance scene in this episode was so bad.

The end too - why would Elnor stay back and let them leave towards an unknown territory? It makes no sense in how it is written - if the portal had to charge and he was fighting outside to give them time to go through, that's one thing. But like this? Even if they followed them through the portal he would be a much bigger help when he went along.

Also if the director of the cube has absolutely no say in anything, what use is he really? Why do they have people coming in weapons ready, trying to shoot at the director of the facility when the original alarm was only about someone not even there?

It feels like they were not able to line out a coherent story throughout the season and try desperately to insert set pieces to make it more interesting.
It also feels like a person writing Star Trek that has only watched some of the movies and heard the basic set up and read a little about it. It's not someone who understands what he is writing about.
 

Skyfireblaze

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,257
But we've seen the EMH reactivate itself before - why doesn't it now? How can she even think she'll be getting away with this when there is evidence of what she did?

This is so poorly written. The romance scene in this episode was so bad.

The end too - why would Elnor stay back and let them leave towards an unknown territory? It makes no sense in how it is written - if the portal had to charge and he was fighting outside to give them time to go through, that's one thing. But like this? Even if they followed them through the portal he would be a much bigger help when he went along.

Also if the director of the cube has absolutely no say in anything, what use is he really? Why do they have people coming in weapons ready, trying to shoot at the director of the facility when the original alarm was only about someone not even there?

It feels like they were not able to line out a coherent story throughout the season and try desperately to insert set pieces to make it more interesting.
It also feels like a person writing Star Trek that has only watched some of the movies and heard the basic set up and read a little about it. It's not someone who understands what he is writing about.

I find the EMH thing weird aswell but with someone of Dr. Jurati's skills I wouldn't find it far-fetched that she tampered with the hologram in some way which might get picked up in a future episode.

For Hugh being the director, I guess he's just a public-figure just like the Queen of England for example or the German Bundespräsident. Someone put in charge by the Romulans so the public feels better about the project.

And Elnor not going along makes sense too, Hugh explicitly said he needed time to shut down the queen chamber and hide it again. If he wouldn't do it the Romulans could just follow Picard and the Trajector tech would fall into their hands too plus I could see them going harsh on Hugh too. Elnor stayed to buy Hugh some time and makes sure no Romulan can talk about what happened or what they saw.
 

Qikz

Member
Oct 25, 2017
12,490
I really enjoyed that episode. The way they had Picard trying to get over the fact he was a borg I thought was really clever.
 

s_mirage

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,773
Birmingham, UK
Also if the director of the cube has absolutely no say in anything, what use is he really? Why do they have people coming in weapons ready, trying to shoot at the director of the facility when the original alarm was only about someone not even there?

AFAIK he's not the director of the cube, just the Borg Reclamation Project based there. Romulan control of security on the Artifact would trump his authority.

As for the EMH thing, I'd have to go back and check but it's possible that this EMH only activates when requested/scheduled or when a medical emergency is detected. They're going to have to address this at some point though.
 

Vault

▲ Legend ▲
Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,617
The Federations casualty's in the Dominion war would have been way higher than 10's of millions.Federation members were conquered and they lost 1000's of ships

I mean the Jem'Hadar killed nearly a billion Cardassians in a few hours
 

Skyfireblaze

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,257
The more I think about it the less the EMH thing is an issue, I mean looking back at Voyager B'lana tampered with the Doctor in such a way that he thought her baby has to undergo the anti-Klingon gene-therapy. Just deleting the memory-banks or giving the EMH false memories about what happened to Maddox shouldn't be hard. They do have to address this eventually though.
 

Sotha_Sil

Member
Nov 4, 2017
5,067
I've been thinking about this episode a lot. I love the different spin on the Borg, showing them from the angle of Hugh and the Ex-B's.

Wil Wheaton and Jeri Ryan's interview explained it well, so I'll start there. You really do look at the Borg as victims. Sure, when you're fighting them you have to be merciless in killing drones and blowing up their ships completely, but at the end of the day you're fighting someone enslaved against its own will. What happens afterwards?

It starts to get interesting when you consider the real-life analogies. That's what good science fiction does, so hats off to this episode.
 

Big-E

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,169
I've been thinking about this episode a lot. I love the different spin on the Borg, showing them from the angle of Hugh and the Ex-B's.

Wil Wheaton and Jeri Ryan's interview explained it well, so I'll start there. You really do look at the Borg as victims. Sure, when you're fighting them you have to be merciless in killing drones and blowing up their ships completely, but at the end of the day you're fighting someone enslaved against its own will. What happens afterwards?

It starts to get interesting when you consider the real-life analogies. That's what good science fiction does, so hats off to this episode.

Borg as victims is nothing new. It is literally what we have been dealing with since Hugh and Picard in TNG and almost all of Voyager. I enjoyed the first episode of this and was willing to give it a go but everything after has not done a thing for me.
 

Rad Bandolar

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,036
SoCal
The Federations casualty's in the Dominion war would have been way higher than 10's of millions.Federation members were conquered and they lost 1000's of ships

I mean the Jem'Hadar killed nearly a billion Cardassians in a few hours
The problem with playing the numbers game with wars is that there are all kinds of factors that might influence a society and government other than casualty rates.

The Viet Nam War was a minor war with relatively few deaths, yet it had a major impact on the American psyche for decades, elements of which still persist to this day.
 
Oct 30, 2017
272
Best episode of the show so far. Loved it.

I have not had any issues with the show up until now. I like the pace, deliberate as it is. Feels like I have gotten to know the crew and surrounding story figures pretty well to this point. Now when it seems the pace begins to pick up it has greater urgency for me. Its more tense. Can't wait for next week.
 

Amnesty

Member
Nov 7, 2017
2,684
I don't think tens of millions are anything to scoff at. Even if it wasn't a large percentage, the war should've left a big scar in the average citizen. At least, DS9 made it seem so. It doesn't have to make sense in our world, with numbers and everything, but for the sake of the story, it's just like any big war on Earth. And the same thing with the Borg. Who knows if the majority of the people haven't seen a Borg or really don't care about xBs. But you guess that most citizens would have a basic sense about them being extremely dangerous.

But what's conservative? Not believing that utopia is achievable? I mean, none of the writers are conservative at all.

I think it's more conservative to imagine a utopia without showing how it's actually achieved, thinking that's it's just something that will happened sooner or later and we should all just be hopeful about it, like what TNG did for so long.

I mean, you're right, the utopia was a thin aspect of Star Trek that was never actually that thought out, but it was used as a device for pushing those morality lessons each episodes, putting the enlighten humans against savage aliens all the time.

Even the use of money wasn't actually well-thought until TNG. We see references to buying, selling, and credits through TOS, the movies and later.

But it was nonetheless something that took over the narrative of what Star Trek was about. I mean, just look at how fans react to even the slightest indication that there are problems with the Federation. No wonder writers feel the urge to challenge the notion.
I think the conservative aspect I"m thinking of isn't necessarily in the hard c ideological kind but in that there's a sort of status quo maintenance in Star Trek's writing in some ways. In terms of how Star Trek views the human, a lot of what Star Trek considers the human to be tends to reflect on an immutable notion of the darkness underneath, or the inherently corruptible nature of the human. I think DS9 was the most strict in regards to this and Picard seems to be following suit in a sense. It's not that these views think of the human as a purely negative being or that they don't consider positive change, but that they often can't see beyond this perspective - that being human is to be flawed in some essentialist way. There's a radical pursuit here that I think is missed in adhering to this notion of humanity. Yes, the mere depiction of a utopia that is treated as a given is also outdated, but then so is the critique of it as such. I think it takes new ways of seeing these things in this medium, to really touch on the future society of Star Trek and its ability to provide insightful potentialities.

Continuing from that, I think that this is part of what keeps Star Trek mired in these poking at Utopia, or the 'how perfect is it' kinds of stories, which is conservative in a formal sense. I think instead of focusing on dismantling narratives it would be more fruitful at this point, at least in terms of doing something exciting or original, in actually really delving into what a Star Trek utopia could look like and what it would be outside of the need to poke at flaws. What kind of difficulties and challenges could arise for humans outside of succumbing to some darker nature? I think there was this brief moment in Star Trek history, where these potentials for a different kind of storytelling came into being, and I'd like to see it pushed farther than it has been in the past. To go where no one has gone before. Instead of getting back to where we've been - even if I don't strongly dislike what Picard is doing on that level. I think our current era of what is basically the prehistory of artificial general intelligence is a perfect match for providing insightful challenges to a utopic Star Trek future, to see what advanced AI outside of conventional forms would mean to what we could be or become. Instead of relying on a lot of the stock Trek things like aliens that are just this one facet of some contemporary aspect of what we are.

I don't think the didactic nature of some of Star Trek was really a bad thing and that it can actually be a useful tool to engage with ideas in a rewarding manner, both for the writer and audience.The writing in Star Trek that has been about prodding the dark side is still giving us a morality lesson of a sort but I think it's done in a way where it still comes off as a righteous engagement with ideas that the writers often consider to be endlessly necessary. Instead of viewing political engagement in the sense that stories must engage with what is happening right now in this instant, we can still have political stories but that reflect on a future that is coming for us - a future governed by automation and intelligence beyond what we understand now. Which isn't through atomized entities like the android. Something more like V'Ger.

I also think that the fact that there is a lot of people that seem to be considerably impacted by the idea of a Utopian future shows that it is a powerful idea. Probably more so than the inverse. It's something that because of this is probably worth delving into with a lot more clarity and detail, instead of just keeping up with the tried and true 'well actually' approach. I think of things like The Prime Directive, which is basically a thought experiment seen in popularized media. That's still kind of crazy, that we ever got something like that. I've had many great discussions dissecting the different instances of that concept and it's what made stuff like TNG rewarding. It's still fairly revolutionary to make a television show that makes people think in that way. Much like most television, I don't think Picard is bringing anything that compelling to the table like that. This is what creating Utopia can do through the medium of television - it can be thought provoking because it's a way of examining ourselves and where we are now and where we could be. The more defined, the better. I don't think the vanilla allegory of 'it's like now but in the future' is all that challenging in this regard and isn't as provocative. At least from what we've seen so far. To simply poke at ghosts of perfection doesn't really challenge all that much either.

I mean, if one were to examine the discourse, what is there to talk about in Picard that is all that thought provoking? We can say that yes they're doing an allegory to the current state of affairs with refugees. It feels a little shallow though, without much conceptual undergirding, which I think is a result of the narrow focus so far. It's just like where are the ideas?

The problem with playing the numbers game with wars is that there are all kinds of factors that might influence a society and government other than casualty rates.

The Viet Nam War was a minor war with relatively few deaths, yet it had a major impact on the American psyche for decades, elements of which still persist to this day.
Well, when it's potentially a quadrillion vs tens of millions it just becomes absurd. It's like getting a paper cut or something.
 
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Joeytj

Member
Oct 30, 2017
3,673
Well, when it's potentially a quadrillion vs tens of millions it just becomes absurd. It's like getting a paper cut or something.

Yeah, but what he means and what I meant is that the numbers game in a fictional setting is pointless to a degree. We only guess it's a population of quadrillion. I don't think even the creators and keepers of the Trek lore know the total population of the Federation. And it should be closer to something like trillions. Perhaps less!
 

JonnyDBrit

God and Anime
Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,024
Well, when it's potentially a quadrillion vs tens of millions it just becomes absurd. It's like getting a paper cut or something.

The US started at least two major conflicts (and a number more splintering off) over 3000 deaths, vs its population of around 300 million. The people of the EU increasingly shun the second largest religion on the planet because of the deaths of what amounts to a few hundred people over the span of several decades. People can be quite disproportionate over 'paper cuts', particularly if they are seen as aberration to an otherwise peaceful status quo; but that gets back into the issue of how much one presumes humanity to have changed, and how fundamental such attitudes may be in oir fictional allies

Ultimately though, there aren't actually any solid estimates for what the casualties of the Dominion War are, in canon. One episode ends up speculating in-universe on how ending the war 'sooner' than its then expected outcome would potentially save 900 billion lives. Does that mean seeing the war go on as it did means a decent chunk of that number was met? Or was that in presumption of how the Dominion would try to stamp out dissent, and so the casualties never even breached 100 mil? That main portions of the franchise just don't say
 

Amnesty

Member
Nov 7, 2017
2,684
I'm going off of what Chabon said, he dropped the quadrillion. It'd be like the US going to war over the death of a single, relatively unimportant person.

Yes, I know they wanted to tell their war arc in DS9 whether it was clashing with the world it was in or not. I don't even know if it would be possible for an interplanetary civilization of diverse aliens to be similar in politics to the tiny scale of relatively compacted civilization we have here on earth. The logistics would be very different, I would imagine.
 

chrominance

Sky Van Gogh
Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,638
This episode was a step down from last week, but it managed to acquit itself decently after a rocky beginning where I aggressively did not care about Soji and Narek. Picard and High seeing each other again was a genuinely touching moment.

Raffi putting herself on the line again for Picard and Picard not getting it felt a little out of character for the latter; I can't decide if the purpose of underlining how badly he's treated Raffi over the last decade and a half is worth making him appear so baldly callous when in the past he's shown at least a glimmer of emotional intelligence.

Rios was a standout here. I don't think he's entirely accepted Jurati's whole deal yet re: Maddox (he did say "if you want to tell me anything," which maybe means nothing but who knows), so I think there's still a possibility someone will piece things together. This is especially true given his attitude towards Raffi later in the episode, which feels more obviously compassionate versus "I'm not sure exactly what this is but I'll never turn down some good sex" with Jurati. Also, I wonder if Rios realized he was going to have to pull double duty as counselor to half the "crew."

I'm not sure I totally buy the strength of Picard's reaction to the Borg. The man has literally faced a Borg Queen taking over his own ship before, and it didn't seem to shake him then as much as it does now. Granted, I have next to no experience with trauma so I'm not sure I can really day what would or would not be realistic.

I don't know what the fuck is up with the dumb maze thing and if you'd told me Narek made the whole thing up I'd believe you. Mostly I'm glad that part of the story is over.

I think I do agree with people's concerns that the storytelling seems very haphazard at times. So far this hasn't bothered me as much as it did at times in Discovery, especially in season 2 (I know, somewhat unpopular opinion). But at least there's movement now.
 

chrominance

Sky Van Gogh
Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,638
Also, reading the Chabon Instagram stories, it's pretty clear "quadrillions?" is just a tossed off answer to hedge his lack of knowledge about how big the Federation is, and not intended to be a statement that establishes canon. I feel like the question mark gives it away, pretty subtle though.
 

Noodle

Banned
Aug 22, 2018
3,427
Also, reading the Chabon Instagram stories, it's pretty clear "quadrillions?" is just a tossed off answer to hedge his lack of knowledge about how big the Federation is, and not intended to be a statement that establishes canon. I feel like the question mark gives it away, pretty subtle though.

Once Agnes claimed there were only 3 billion stars in the galaxy (there are ~250 billion) but 1 septillion planets (that's 333 trillion planets per star) it became clear that details are not their forte. It literally takes less effort to google the number than to make up a plausible sounding one yourself.
 

JonnyDBrit

God and Anime
Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,024
Once Agnes claimed there were only 3 billion stars in the galaxy (there are ~250 billion) but 1 septillion planets (that's 333 trillion planets per star) it became clear that details are not their forte. It literally takes less effort to google the number than to make up a plausible sounding one yourself.

My mental excuse on that is that being a cybernetics junkie has left Agnes... ill informed on other subjects. She even mentions not liking space
 

Lagamorph

Wrong About Chicken
Member
Oct 26, 2017
7,355
I've only just caught up with the last couple of episodes.

It was obvious from the moment she turned up at the Chateau that Jurati was going to be a traitor, but they weren't making any effort to hide that from the audience really.
It was great seeing Seven again, though I am kinda annoyed that they decided to kill Icheb like that. Would've been nice to hear about what happened between Seven and Chakotay too since there seemed to be an implication that Seven had been in a relationship with Bjayzl.


Honestly, I think one of my biggest issues with Picard is one of the same issues I have with Discovery. The swearing.
I just don't see why Star Trek needs people dropping the F-bomb all over the place.
 

Hella

Member
Oct 27, 2017
23,405
The dialog for all the new characters is honestly bad. They all feel like they were transplanted from a modern-day TV series into Star Trek. Elnor the Elf, Rios and Raffi from some gritty crime drama, Jurati from a procedural drama, the two sets of twins from Game of Thrones. There's a lot of stylistic clashes when you blend all of those disparate elements together.

Fortunately all of the returning characters haven't lost their voice, so I guess it's all intentional. There is the possibility of a course-correcting in Season 2.
 

JonnyDBrit

God and Anime
Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,024
I would say to a certain extent that while the writers have made a point of emphasising how the setting doesn't begin and end with Starfleet, they do still somewhat lean on it as a crutch for easy characterisation. Rios and Raffi have an easy rapport with each other and Picard; when shit arises none of them have to explain to each other why it's going to be a problem because their time in the service has left them all experienced. The others are... somewhat ancillary to them, even if logically so.
 

ascii42

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,798
Anyone else have the CBS All Access app glitch and restart a commercial break with each commercial? Both times it happened, there were 4 commercials, so I saw 1, 1, 2, 1, 2, 3, 1, 2, 3, 4. I'm watching on a Roku.
 

Amnesty

Member
Nov 7, 2017
2,684
Also, reading the Chabon Instagram stories, it's pretty clear "quadrillions?" is just a tossed off answer to hedge his lack of knowledge about how big the Federation is, and not intended to be a statement that establishes canon. I feel like the question mark gives it away, pretty subtle though.
Yes, of course. I just think it's somewhat emblematic of the writing team not having much interest in really delving into world building. After all these decades of Star Trek, I'm a little disappointed we're still getting these shallow universes, subject to convenience. I think detailed world building is a fairly popular thing right now too, so it's a little strange I guess and does make Picard feel a little antiquated in that sense.
 

chrominance

Sky Van Gogh
Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,638
I would say to a certain extent that while the writers have made a point of emphasising how the setting doesn't begin and end with Starfleet, they do still somewhat lean on it as a crutch for easy characterisation. Rios and Raffi have an easy rapport with each other and Picard; when shit arises none of them have to explain to each other why it's going to be a problem because their time in the service has left them all experienced. The others are... somewhat ancillary to them, even if logically so.

Honestly it kind of feels that way for everyone on board except maybe Elnor. Everyone feels a little too tight with one another, especially last episode when they were planning the heist (so to speak). I think this is a necessary problem with only having 10 episodes for the season, but also hey, you guys were the ones who tried to cram this story into 10 episodes, it's incumbent on you to make the crew dynamic feel organic.

I had a similar issue with Discovery and I like to think that for the most part I'm open to stuff changing in Star Trek (though maybe I haven't been super successful with this with Discovery), but the shorter seasons I think means there are more narrative and characterization shortcuts than I'd like.

Yes, of course. I just think it's somewhat emblematic of the writing team not having much interest in really dealing into world building. After all these decades of Star Trek, I'm a little disappointed we're still getting these shallow universes, subject to convenience. I think detailed world building is a fairly popular thing right now too, so it's a little strange I guess and does make Picard feel a little antiquated in that sense.

I think worldbuilding is also one of those things that goes out the window when you have so few episodes. And I agree that it's a problem; even leaning on the existing canon, Picard does occasionally feel paper thin.

But I also kind of feel like if you want a show that really gets into the nitty gritty of how the Star Trek universe really works (i.e. no scene of Troi handwaving centuries of progress to Samuel Clemens because there are actual explanations for all of it), you kind of need to reboot it. There's too much legacy canon you'd have to acknowledge or write around, and I think it would feel like too much work for too little payoff economically.
 

Rad Bandolar

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,036
SoCal
Yeah, but what he means and what I meant is that the numbers game in a fictional setting is pointless to a degree. We only guess it's a population of quadrillion. I don't think even the creators and keepers of the Trek lore know the total population of the Federation. And it should be closer to something like trillions. Perhaps less!
That's a component of it, but there really isn't a direct correlation between casualty rates and psychological impact on a populace/government. There are a host of factors at play that either amplify the casualties in the public's mind or blunt their impact.

From a storytelling standpoint, which is the only thing that matters in a fictional setting, DS9 established an enemy that had technology and tactics that were superior, or were of a nature that presented a real defensive problem to the powers of the Alpha Quadrant. This enemy presented an existential threat. They did not only seek to conquer territory to acquire resources or expand influence, but to literally eliminate the existing governments of the quadrant and subjugate the populace to maintain control using brutal methods. This enemy had no misgivings about genocide or planetary annihilation to achieve their goals. DS9 demonstrated that the impacts of the war with this enemy were profound for the powers of the Alpha Quadrant, particularly the Federation.

So, if the storytellers demonstrate that a war matters to the characters, has profound impacts on their actions and the actions of others within that fictional world, and then others telling a story within that world say that those events had an impact on the characters and story that they're telling, then that's all that really matters. You can critique how well they executed the story they're telling (instead of critiquing them on what you wished they would've done) and whether they maintained internal consistency with their storytelling, but going beyond that is unfair to both the storyteller and to yourself, since you're just spinning your wheels at that point.
 

Joeytj

Member
Oct 30, 2017
3,673
That's a component of it, but there really isn't a direct correlation between casualty rates and psychological impact on a populace/government. There are a host of factors at play that either amplify the casualties in the public's mind or blunt their impact.

From a storytelling standpoint, which is the only thing that matters in a fictional setting, DS9 established an enemy that had technology and tactics that were superior, or were of a nature that presented a real defensive problem to the powers of the Alpha Quadrant. This enemy presented an existential threat. They did not only seek to conquer territory to acquire resources or expand influence, but to literally eliminate the existing governments of the quadrant and subjugate the populace to maintain control using brutal methods. This enemy had no misgivings about genocide or planetary annihilation to achieve their goals. DS9 demonstrated that the impacts of the war with this enemy were profound for the powers of the Alpha Quadrant, particularly the Federation.

So, if the storytellers demonstrate that a war matters to the characters, has profound impacts on their actions and the actions of others within that fictional world, and then others telling a story within that world say that those events had an impact on the characters and story that they're telling, then that's all that really matters. You can critique how well they executed the story they're telling (instead of critiquing them on what you wished they would've done) and whether they maintained internal consistency with their storytelling, but going beyond that is unfair to both the storyteller and to yourself, since you're just spinning your wheels at that point.

Yes, indeed. Your point was more something like this, which I agree with too.

The point of the Dominion War story was to show an existential threat to the Federation, and it showed that through the characters and that's what we're supposed to take from it. Arguing that the fictional numbers don't add up, is missing the point of what DS9 was trying to shows
 

Rad Bandolar

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,036
SoCal
Yes, indeed. Your point was more something like this, which I agree with too.

The point of the Dominion War story was to show an existential threat to the Federation, and it showed that through the characters and that's what we're supposed to take from it. Arguing that the fictional numbers don't add up, is missing the point of what DS9 was trying to shows
Yeah, if it sounded like I was arguing with you, I didn't mean to. I just wanted to expand upon my point in general and make it explicit.
 

Amnesty

Member
Nov 7, 2017
2,684
From a storytelling standpoint, which is the only thing that matters in a fictional setting
I think I disagree with this. I believe fiction, as media, can be seen as a thing which has impact outside of itself and outside of our judgements of taste or outside of its nature as a recounting of events. It can do more than tell a story. Story' is an account, but that account isn't the sole aspect of how fiction is defined.

I think part of this is how the worlds in fiction are formed, conceptually. Underneath the storytelling, in the false worlds relationship to ours, we can be and are affected by the coherency of the worlds we engage with. This part of fiction plays into how simulation engages us psychologically, so that it can be channeled as vector for more fruitful dissemination of ideas. A rich world can have the potential to impart ideas beyond the nature of storytelling, to have effect in our real world. Consider how political stories disseminate their ideas, it can often not be derived solely or purely from the story, but also from the world. The information that composes the world can be both part of and outside of the storytelling aspect. The composition of the worlds of fiction can become their own objects in our thoughts and have influence on how we think of a great deal of other things beyond the story we are engaged with.

We can look at the conflicts between the story and the world, and by thinking through them, perhaps we can understand more about how fiction could be created that can channel ideas through itself and to us - to analyze world and story as separate but intertwined entities. Story could undercut World's ability to realize certain conceptual ambitions and then that fiction as a thing which we take something from could possibly be less connective in its ability to reach us beyond discourses of taste.

So, with that in mind, I think that this is an avenue of criticism that I believe could be potentially beneficial in building new relations to media and how we think about our own world. In pointing out and discussing how a world is composed, we can discover where coherency may play into how ideas can be realized and disseminated outside of the fiction. If the world and the story are not very coherent with each other, or the world is conveniently at whim to the story, or plot, then I think the case could be made, like with Star Trek in general, that the ideas it tries to convey can get lost beneath aspects of storytelling which may or may not be conducive to their realization in our broader world of discourse.
 

UltraMagnus

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
15,670
The elf character still sticks out like a sore thumb, like they literally transported a LOTR character into Star Trek.

Think I understand why the series feels so boring ... there's no tension in the plot, the last episode where they have to get off the Borg cube right at the end was the first time it felt like some stakes were at play and it felt more interesting. Otherwise the series has just been meandering from scene to scene.

This show is a slog right now, has potential, but man, even the TNG movies like Insurrection were more entertaining than this so far.
 
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Amnesty

Member
Nov 7, 2017
2,684
I think worldbuilding is also one of those things that goes out the window when you have so few episodes. And I agree that it's a problem; even leaning on the existing canon, Picard does occasionally feel paper thin.

But I also kind of feel like if you want a show that really gets into the nitty gritty of how the Star Trek universe really works (i.e. no scene of Troi handwaving centuries of progress to Samuel Clemens because there are actual explanations for all of it), you kind of need to reboot it. There's too much legacy canon you'd have to acknowledge or write around, and I think it would feel like too much work for too little payoff economically.
I would definitely be more interested in a reboot at this point. If they don't want to delve deeper into the existing world, I'd rather something new. And yeah, there's just a lot to deal with so I can understand if it would feel daunting and instead of really engaging with it I suppose the easier route is to continue the handwaving method.
 

voOsh

Member
Apr 5, 2018
1,665
The poor writing aside, I'm very disappointed in how small they make the Star Trek universe feel. We spend 90% of every episode in 1 of 3 locations: the Artifact, the ship, and Picard's (holo)chateau.
 

Hella

Member
Oct 27, 2017
23,405
We have to stay on Rios' ship, otherwise how else can we see what whacky new emergency hologram he has in store for us next.
 

Joeytj

Member
Oct 30, 2017
3,673
I think I disagree with this. I believe fiction, as media, can be seen as a thing which has impact outside of itself and outside of our judgements of taste or outside of its nature as a recounting of events. It can do more than tell a story. Story' is an account, but that account isn't the sole aspect of how fiction is defined.

I think part of this is how the worlds in fiction are formed, conceptually. Underneath the storytelling, in the false worlds relationship to ours, we can be and are affected by the coherency of the worlds we engage with. This part of fiction plays into how simulation engages us psychologically, so that it can be channeled as vector for more fruitful dissemination of ideas. A rich world can have the potential to impart ideas beyond the nature of storytelling, to have effect in our real world. Consider how political stories disseminate their ideas, it can often not be derived solely or purely from the story, but also from the world. The information that composes the world can be both part of and outside of the storytelling aspect. The composition of the worlds of fiction can become their own objects in our thoughts and have influence on how we think of a great deal of other things beyond the story we are engaged with.

We can look at the conflicts between the story and the world, and by thinking through them, perhaps we can understand more about how fiction could be created that can channel ideas through itself and to us - to analyze world and story as separate but intertwined entities. Story could undercut World's ability to realize certain conceptual ambitions and then that fiction as a thing which we take something from could possibly be less connective in its ability to reach us beyond discourses of taste.

So, with that in mind, I think that this is an avenue of criticism that I believe could be potentially beneficial in building new relations to media and how we think about our own world. In pointing out and discussing how a world is composed, we can discover where coherency may play into how ideas can be realized and disseminated outside of the fiction. If the world and the story are not very coherent with each other, or the world is conveniently at whim to the story, or plot, then I think the case could be made, like with Star Trek in general, that the ideas it tries to convey can get lost beneath aspects of storytelling which may or may not be conducive to their realization in our broader world of discourse.

This is All true.

But the world building has never been Star Trek's strength. Not like with Star Wars or other franchises. Star Trek's world is almost incidental, a byproduct. It's a result of storytelling decisions that are taken episode to episode and movie to movie. Of course, since there have been so many Trek episodes and movie, the resulting world has amassed a weight of its own that can't be ignored, but like rad-bandolar said, it's going to be difficult to do what you are proposing for Trek without having to retcon or reboot a large part of the canon.

What were left with are attempts to reconcile new story and ideas with decades of half-assed fiction world building with more modern ideas for how to make a good sci fi show.
 

Amnesty

Member
Nov 7, 2017
2,684
This is All true.

But the world building has never been Star Trek's strength. Not like with Star Wars or other franchises. Star Trek's world is almost incidental, a byproduct. It's a result of storytelling decisions that are taken episode to episode and movie to movie. Of course, since there have been so many Trek episodes and movie, the resulting world has amassed a weight of its own that can't be ignored, but like rad-bandolar said, it's going to be difficult to do what you are proposing for Trek without having to retcon or reboot a large part of the canon.

What were left with are attempts to reconcile new story and ideas with decades of half-assed fiction world building with more modern ideas for how to make a good sci fi show.
I think that yes, the world building hasn't been all that strong throughout Star Trek. On the other hand it has had some of the most potential to convey more complex ideas like postcapitalism. There still isn't a lot around that even approaches stuff like that.
 

Rad Bandolar

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,036
SoCal
I think I disagree with this. I believe fiction, as media, can be seen as a thing which has impact outside of itself and outside of our judgements of taste or outside of its nature as a recounting of events. It can do more than tell a story. Story' is an account, but that account isn't the sole aspect of how fiction is defined.

I think part of this is how the worlds in fiction are formed, conceptually. Underneath the storytelling, in the false worlds relationship to ours, we can be and are affected by the coherency of the worlds we engage with. This part of fiction plays into how simulation engages us psychologically, so that it can be channeled as vector for more fruitful dissemination of ideas. A rich world can have the potential to impart ideas beyond the nature of storytelling, to have effect in our real world. Consider how political stories disseminate their ideas, it can often not be derived solely or purely from the story, but also from the world. The information that composes the world can be both part of and outside of the storytelling aspect. The composition of the worlds of fiction can become their own objects in our thoughts and have influence on how we think of a great deal of other things beyond the story we are engaged with.

We can look at the conflicts between the story and the world, and by thinking through them, perhaps we can understand more about how fiction could be created that can channel ideas through itself and to us - to analyze world and story as separate but intertwined entities. Story could undercut World's ability to realize certain conceptual ambitions and then that fiction as a thing which we take something from could possibly be less connective in its ability to reach us beyond discourses of taste.

So, with that in mind, I think that this is an avenue of criticism that I believe could be potentially beneficial in building new relations to media and how we think about our own world. In pointing out and discussing how a world is composed, we can discover where coherency may play into how ideas can be realized and disseminated outside of the fiction. If the world and the story are not very coherent with each other, or the world is conveniently at whim to the story, or plot, then I think the case could be made, like with Star Trek in general, that the ideas it tries to convey can get lost beneath aspects of storytelling which may or may not be conducive to their realization in our broader world of discourse.
I really don't have much to say in reply, but I wanted to let you know that I genuinely enjoy reading your posts and the thought you put into them. They're great food for thought.
 

StallionDan

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
7,705
They have the opposite problems, STP is so slow and barely anything happens, STD goes so fast they just fill scenes with garbage chatter and invent, discuss and solve problems in within 60 seconds.
 

SuperBanana

Member
Oct 28, 2017
3,743
after 6 episode it's clear to me that discovery is the better show picard is just too damn slow 😐

This has to be the first time a Borg cube has revolved around a dull and horrible storyline. It's absolutely pointless. The love plot and the shit with the incest romulan twins has gone no where, done nothing, and boring as dog shit.
 

StallionDan

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
7,705
So if they are flesh and blood synths how does she just punch through the floor of a Borg cube. Flesh and blood isn't surviving that, nor is it strong enough to so she gotta be robotic and just looking human.

They can't be human but also be superpowered.

I doubt the show will ever address this.
 

JonnyDBrit

God and Anime
Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,024
So if they are flesh and blood synths how does she just punch through the floor of a Borg cube. Flesh and blood isn't surviving that, nor is it strong enough to so she gotta be robotic and just looking human.

They can't be human but also be superpowered.

I doubt the show will ever address this.

This is one of those things with this trope I've seen increasingly pop up and it just... bugs me. Not even just for artificial life in this writing team's case, because they previously pulled the 'totally indistinguishable from human at the cellular level except for these things which should be blatantly different' when it came to explaining how the hell you fit a DIS style klingon into a human shell. It's... i dunno, a desire to describe things in the strongest terms while not thinking through the implications of such.
 

Eoin

Member
Oct 27, 2017
7,103
So if they are flesh and blood synths how does she just punch through the floor of a Borg cube. Flesh and blood isn't surviving that, nor is it strong enough to so she gotta be robotic and just looking human.

They can't be human but also be superpowered.

I doubt the show will ever address this.
Yeah I think this is one of the things that will be unexplained. It's not totally unusual for fiction (there's countless examples of dinosaurs/aliens/dragons/etc that do biologically impossible things) and even Star Trek (where humans are hilariously weak compared to many other bipedal species, yet still have a respectable win ratio in hand-to-hand combat). These synths do stretch things even further though, since we're meant to believe that they're indistinguishable from humans, but become near-indestructible superhumans with a mental flip of a switch.

If the show does attempt to explain it, probably the only explanation that works (and is compatible with Star Trek technology levels) is that synth "activation" also creates a thin but reasonably powerful force field around the synth's body. For Soji escaping the room, that would mean that punching through the floor wasn't going to damage her. It wouldn't explain where she got the musculature to actually do that though.