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Star Wars |OT2| This is getting out of hand. Now there are two of them! [OPEN TROS SPOILERS | TAG MANDO SPOILERS]
- Thread starter WadiumArcadium
- Start date
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This is a complete misread of what the film is telling the viewer. Luke didn't think anyone can "save" Kylo. When he says this, it's also a transition into handing Leia the falcon dice, which is a reference to Han.
Luke already knows Ben is lost. Leia knows Ben is lost.
Luke tried to tell Rey this with his "this is not going to go the way you think", Rey didn't listen and failed. The only thing she accomplished was helping push Kylo further along his dark path (basically becoming Snoke/taking his place).
"No one's ever really gone" was not a reference to Ben's redemption. No part of Luke believes it because nothing in either film suggests it, quite the opposite actually. I took it to simply mean "there's good and bad in everyone, so a piece of Ben will always be there". We see shades of it when Kylo fails to kill Leia, for example. But that's a far cry from redemption.
And if JJ fully redeems him, it will have been the greatest mistake across any SW film since the Disney sale. There is literally no way to do this without uprooting the foundation of his character development built over the course of the two previous films.
I don't agree with that, especially given that immediately after he says this, he hands Leia Han's Dice.
I think Luke's word were more of a comforting salve about keeping a piece of those we love after they are gone and, in a sense, Ben is already dead as Kylo has become someone else entirely.
Granted, this scene is open to broad interpretation but Johnson really went out of his way to show both Luke and Leia agreeing that Ben/Kylo was beyond salvation.
I still don't think Palpatine is going to be returning in a literal sense. I think his spirit might haunt the ruins of the Death Star (which would be admittedly creepy and interesting) or his 'return' will be some manner of flashback, like when Rey first picked up Luke's saber in TFA and heard Vader's breathing.
If was just a small one off thing like that such as a flashback I really don't think they'd have put him in the trailer or bring him on stage at Celebration. He's the big bad, I'd bet money on it.
yeah i do kinda wonder how Palps will fit in to all of this. I don't think it'll be just a spirit but i also don't think he'll be a main baddy. might be more of a hanibal lecter a la silence of the lambs kinda thing where he's just chlling in the death star remains, unable to leave, and has some sort of crucial info to give or something.
I took 'no-one's every really gone' to mean Ben can still be saved, and Luke's line about not being able to save him meaning that someone else might be able to.
I think when JJ said 'fighting the ultimate evil' it was in reference to Pal. Which means Palp has to show up in some way, I can't see how he would fight unless it becomes a Voldermort situation and he's brought back to life in someway. I'm really curious to know whether the plan from the beginning was to have Palpatine come back.
I am on team Palps has been behind it all pulling the strings with FO and everything. The Phantom Menace!
ok that would actually be pretty good haha. Imagine if they use that wording too. wew
This is my guess as well. We already know that the First Order is the result of Sheev's plan for the Empire after his death. Toss in Palps haunting Vader's mask like Lord Momin, and baby, you got a stew going.
Brainstorm: what if Sheev, stuck in Vader's mask, persuades Kylo to visit the remains of the Death Star because it's Kyber crystals will allow him to do some crazy Force stuff? Or, alternate theory, the Emperor didn't have time to delete the browser history on his Death Star II computer and wants Kylo to go do it for him. You can never be too careful when dealing with Gamorrean smut!
That feeling when you can't join in on the speculatin' because you've already read all the spoilers
Nobody's fault but my own, I know
Nobody's fault but my own, I know
Annnnd the site's crashed
edit: Here's a direct link to the ticketing queue https://www.showclix.com/event/swca20divo3ms/
I think this is right. His "see you around, kid" is a callback, but it's also him implying that Luke will always be a part of Ben.
The notion of redemption is one that I think fans see as too black & white, in general. Part of that is on Lucas. Is Vader redeemed by throwing Palps off the bridge? That's debatable at first, but then Lucas has him achieve Nirvana at the end and become a Force Ghost. If you don't have Anakin there on Endor, it's Vader doing the right thing, but obviously not absolving him of his past.
The notion that Ben/Kylo has to either become fully evil or fully good/redeemed at the end of this is too reductive. But fans being too reductive is part of Star Wars at this point.
I mean, my bank account is crying, but
I accidentally clicked out of my tab. It's not suppose to reset my spot in the queue, but still rip me.
ALways wanted to know but what's the story behind this gif? Some impromptu dance party? Lol. Also Oscar is such a treasure, man. Glad JJ didn't kill him off in TFA.
I mean, my bank account is crying, but
If I recall correctly, I think it's literally that. JJ would hold them to let the cast and crew blow off steam.
OP
OP
I don't understand, wasn't Star Wars dead?
One half, cool hooded Reys
The other, a buncha Kylos
and it's all as real as this metaphor
There's a myriad of problems with Palpatine coming back in a literal sense.
Firstly, his death in ROTJ was definitive and without question. He not only got tossed into a chasm and exploded into a noxious burst of energy but his body remained on the Death Star, which was effectively blown to pieces.
The notion of survival doesn't make any sense and it greatly damages the impact of ROTJ.
That said, assuming he actually survived, his dormancy is also nonsensical.
Why would he lay around in wait for decades?
We also know that neither Kylo nor Snoke are Sith, which strongly suggests they were not in league with Palpatine.
I think the notion of bringing Palpatine back – especially at this late juncture – would be a bad idea; the equivalent of lame SW fanfiction. The previous two sequel films have gone to great lengths to give us new and well-defined villains who simply do not need Sheev popping in at the third act and giving us a retread.
I really hope that's not the plan.
Firstly, his death in ROTJ was definitive and without question. He not only got tossed into a chasm and exploded into a noxious burst of energy but his body remained on the Death Star, which was effectively blown to pieces.
The notion of survival doesn't make any sense and it greatly damages the impact of ROTJ.
That said, assuming he actually survived, his dormancy is also nonsensical.
Why would he lay around in wait for decades?
We also know that neither Kylo nor Snoke are Sith, which strongly suggests they were not in league with Palpatine.
I think the notion of bringing Palpatine back – especially at this late juncture – would be a bad idea; the equivalent of lame SW fanfiction. The previous two sequel films have gone to great lengths to give us new and well-defined villains who simply do not need Sheev popping in at the third act and giving us a retread.
I really hope that's not the plan.
His plan in the prequels involved being patient for decades, and even in the Sith in general waited a thousand years between the Old Republic and the prequels to take their revenge.
True but he also had apprentices doing his bidding and he maintained the Sith edicts and fanned its flame.
The Sith have no presence in the sequel trilogy; neither Snoke or Kylo are Sith.
We also know from the books that the Battle of Jakku was his contingency plan in the case of his death. Unless he had a secret 2nd contingency plan, as well.
I'm pretty convinced that they're just going to the Death Star for a random macguffin or info about the rise of the First Order.
I'm pretty convinced that they're just going to the Death Star for a random macguffin or info about the rise of the First Order.
Who says he was dormant and waiting? He could be pulling the strings of the FO behind the scenes.
I'll just say that if Palpatine isn't back in some significant way (more than just a laughing holocron or some shit) then the Celebration reveal was a pretty bad misfire. Sets up expectations.
Wasn't sure if I should post this here or in the spoiler thread, but MSW compiled a list of recent quotes from the TROS cast & crew. Might fuel some speculation.
I guess but the notion seems tenuous. The idea that it was Palpatine the entire time just seems goofy to me.
Only because we didn't see him in TFA and TLJ. But look at the prequels. If we hadn't seen Darth Sidious in Episode I and Episode II, and if Senator Palpatine had a fake name and wasn't played by Ian McDiarmid, the sudden reveal in Episode III would have seemed out of nowhere too.
Well yes and that would have been very poor storytelling given the intent of the prequel trilogy.
Palpatine coming out of the shadows at this point in the sequel trilogy and revealed to be the mastermind of the FO would be a difficult thing to execute credibly given all the world building and characterization the previous two films have set up in regards to the formation of the FO and the complete absence of the Sith.
Kennedy and company have been very vague on the matter and have insisted there's a solid justification for what they are planning so I'm going to trust them and see how it plays out but personally, I just can't imagine Palpatine actually being alive in the flesh.
After what happened with Luke Skywalker in TFA you should have learned your lesson by now.
If Rey goes on a mission to destroy items that could bring back Palatine then...ugh....
This is a complete misread of what the film is telling the viewer. Luke was shown to be rooted in outdated thoughts based on his attachment to the old Jedi Order, and he believed Ben totally lost before the Yoda talk down which is the crux of the movies themes. Han died trying to save his son, and yet while he failed this doesn't mean that Ben is lost, and wouldn't want Leia to think that he is lost. Han's dice can work both as saying that Han isn't gone metaphorically, nor is his will to save his son. It's very important to note that after Kylo's failure to destroy the Resistance at the end of TLJ, he picks up Han's dice looking forlorn as he looks up to Rey in their force link and she closes the door on him. He reached the top and it hasn't given him satisfaction, but he has his father who he wants to hate but is left looking at his dice after his failure, his father the failure whose beloved even after he killed him.
Ben will be redeemed, if by fully redeemed you mean everything is honky dory he gets to live a normal life among the general populace then no that would be stupid, but he will be redeemed. Those thinking he won't are on the wrong side of Star Wars history.
I just remembered that I had a dream about seeing TROS last night. But, I can't for the life of me remember what it was all about since I also ended up dreaming being chased by the police as part of a manhunt and that one seems to have taken precedent in my memory.
No... That's not what Yoda's lesson is about, it's not about saving Ben at all. You weren't paying attention. Let's revisit:
L: Master Yoda. Y: Young Skywalker. L: I'm ending all of this. The tree, the text, the Jedi. I'm gonna burn it down. Y: Ah, Skywalker. Missed you, have I. L: So it is time for the Jedi Order to end. Y: Time it is. For you to look past a pile of old books, hmm? L: The sacred Jedi texts. Y: Oh. Read them, have you? Page-turners they were not. Yes, yes, yes. Wisdom they held, but that library contained nothing that the girl Rey does not already possess. Skywalker, still looking to the horizon. Never here, now, hmm? The need in front of your nose. L: I was weak. Unwise. Y: Lost Ben Solo, you did. Lose Rey, we must not. L: I can't be what she needs me to be. Y: Heeded my words not, did you? Pass on what you have learned. Strength, mastery. But weakness, folly, failure also. Yes, failure most of all. The greatest teacher, failure is. Luke, we are what they grow beyond. That is the true burden of all masters.
This will be continued in TROS when Luke surely has more interaction with Rey.
None of this is about Ben's redemption. Nothing in either film suggests his redemption, quite the opposite. That doesn't mean he can't still help Rey in some way. But he's got nothing left to live for but Rey at this point, and maybe his mother who he was unable to kill, but she will likely be dead before much of the film has progressed.
In fact.. By the time Luke makes his redemption, he has already accepted that Ben is lost, even if not completely gone. He admits that he's not there to save him and that "I failed you.. I'm sorry".
We're not getting a Ben force ghost redemption.. So I'm not sure what kind of big redemption you're expecting that doesn't completely unravel his development in TFA and TLJ.
Think he'll be redeemed if you want, but understand that TLJ is not at all about the redemption of Ben Solo. You've misunderstood the basic themes of the film if you think that's what it's about, and deeply misunderstood Yoda's lesson and conversation with Luke.
There is plenty of room to retcon TLJ into being about it, but I don't think JJ is dumb enough to betray the other two films for a cheap twist.
Weird... the manhunt ought to have been a cliff note at best
Alphabet squadron is so good.
So happy its a trilogy.
The tie fighter comic is just kinda whatever tho
So happy its a trilogy.
The tie fighter comic is just kinda whatever tho
I think the fun of Ben/Kylo's character is there is enough nuance there for things to go either way. Your interpretation of Yoda's lesson to Luke seems right to me, but I think it's important to remember that it is just for Luke. I've always felt that Luke acknowledges he can't save Ben, but he never says Rey or Leia couldn't.
I firmly disagree that Kylo being redeemed would go against the past 2 films. The point of Star Wars has always been that no matter how far into the darkness someone has gone, no matter how many bad choices they've made, they can still choose the light. Yes, Ben has made horrible choices in the ST, but there will be plenty of chances for good in TRoS. As Jyn would say: "We'll take the next chance...and the next."
Actually, now that I think about, maybe the one thing I truly want in TRoS is a scene between Leia and Ben. I know its unlikely considering the circumstances, but I'd be delighted if JJ found a way to pull it off.
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