Maybe Kylo sees a force vision of Leia but can't interact with her
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Star Wars |OT2| This is getting out of hand. Now there are two of them! [OPEN TROS SPOILERS | TAG MANDO SPOILERS]
- Thread starter WadiumArcadium
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Maybe Kylo sees a force vision of Leia but can't interact with her
Yeah, I'm in the same bucket. Never thought of it as an abbreviated thing (though it obviously makes sense when you put it like that)
I thought it just meant a destroyer from the stars. Like a starship.
It's hard to interpret Yoda's lesson in different ways when he literally tells Luke and the audience what it is. I'm not saying there's no nuance there at all, but "we are what they grow beyond" in regard to Luke and Rey is pretty damn clear.
Also, Kylo is unlike anybody we've seen in the franchise. SW's deepest sin is to betray your family. We've never seen anyone do this. We've seen them commit horrible acts, but Kylo's act is the very direct and intentional) inverse of Luke saving Vader. One is an act of redemption, one is an act of disgrace and betrayal.
There ain't no coming back for Kylo. Thematically it doesn't match what the other films established for his character.
Kylo getting redeemed would be a cop-out. And we don't need a repeat of Luke saving Vader, been there done that.
Totally agree but at the same time having the last of the Skywalker characters go out evil is a shame, I assume Rey takes on the Skywalker name (due to the film title) so they can avoid that.
Agreed with the former, not the latter. Prefer Rey to not be connected to any of the other characters, but I did get a sense that was where Abrams wanted to go with TFA epilogue when she hugged Leia.
That is precisely what he says to Rey:
And he was correct, as evidenced by Kylo's refusal to join with Rey and save the Resistance after Snoke's defeat.
And given that Kylo has tried to kill his mother twice, the chances of her redeeming him seem very slim.
As Surfin pointed out, Kylo is a unique entity and villain in the SW universe and the previous two films have gone to considerable lengths to demonstrate that Kylo is simply a dark, evil being regardless of who tries to steer him towards a better path. Considering he has rebuked or killed some of the greatest and most selfless heroes in the galaxy when they have offered him salvation, I don't see how he is anything but a true and unfettered monster at this point.
Yeah, I agreed with you on the Yoda thing.
But as far as Kylo, I guess I just see him differently. He is, of course, a monster... but to act as though he's any worse than Vader is laughable. Vader slaughtered children, killed Obi-Wan, etc. The entire point of Star Wars is that no one is beyond redemption.
Every single terrible thing that Kylo has done has split him to the core. Killing Han fucked him up BIG time. He is broken at the end of TLJ, too. He is indeed a monster, but that is in spite of himself, not in service of it.
At the end of TLJ, Leia says, "I held out hope for so long, but I know my son is gone." Luke directly replies with "No one's ever really gone." To say he's only talking about Han at that point because of the dice is silly--it's a very encompassing quote. Of course Han can be implied from the dice, but it's undoubtedly a call-and-response to Leia's mourning for her son.
I really, truly believe a redemption is a possibility. I actually hope that if it happens, he lives through it
That would be far more interesting than the alternative and could lead to interesting explorations of the aftermath of evil that we couldn't have with Vader's character.
That is precisely what he says to Rey:
And he was correct, as evidenced by Kylo's refusal to join with Rey and save the Resistance after Snoke's defeat.
And given that Kylo has tried to kill his mother twice, the chances of her redeeming him seem very slim.
As Surfin pointed out, Kylo is a unique entity and villain in the SW universe and the previous two films have gone to considerable lengths to demonstrate that Kylo is simply a dark, evil being regardless of who tries to steer him towards a better path. Considering he has rebuked or killed some of the greatest and most selfless heroes in the galaxy when they have offered him salvation, I don't see how he is anything but a true and unfettered monster at this point.
At that point in the film, Luke also believes that the Jedi should end, that he's the reason the galaxy sucks, etc. He clearly no longer believes those by the end of the film. A character can change over the course of a film, which Luke very clearly does.
The notion of the Jedi ending is an entirely different issue because in a sense the order, as it has existed for thousands of years, is ending and giving way to something newer and more evolved.
Regardless, Luke's conversation with both Leia and Kylo are demonstrative that his opinion on the matter of Ben's redemption hasn't changed in the slightest.
SW is not about redemption just because it happened to Vader. There were three movies/an entire trilogy dedicated to showing the fall and tragedy of Anakin Skywalker.
Like I said though, we've never seen a SW character written in the way Kylo is. Anakin fought off the influence of the dark.. Kylo is so far gone, he's actually fighting off the influence of the light.
This is a stark difference between the two, and Kylo's betrayal was written as almost the antithesis of Vader being saved by the love of his son. Han was destroyed by the hate of Ben, even if his heart wasn't completely in it.
Redeeming Kylo Ren would be the single most uninteresting route the story could possibly take.
There is just no way to turn him into a force ghost or absolve him of his sins the way Vader was (which IMO should have never happened anyways).
SW, at its core, is and has always been about family. Which is why killing and betraying them to start an entire trilogy separates him from anyone else in the films.
Rushing a redemption and ignoring his character development in the two previous films would be such a terrible piece of writing that I don't think JJ would ever want it.. Anymore than he'd want Rey to be Skywalker by blood.
he's getting redeemed. And it won't be Vader-like last minute thing but his arc in the movie. this isn't a spoiler. it can be surmised from previous movies and TROS-related interviews. And if that isn't enough, Palpatine return seals the deal. he won't join Palaptine or dispose of him for power grab. he's done that with Snoke (though he killed Snoke more to save Rey than anything else, he ain't no planner). it's done, wait and see. I get that it isn't some fans preferred outcome but that's what it is going to be. otherwise, the ending would be completely unsatisfying. Like, literally what did Skywalkers achieve if he remained evil? Nothing. OT characters would die sad and miserable. they want Ben back. Not getting him back would be tragic. And this movie is about Hope as per KK. And it ties 9 movies together so Kylo/Ben is ST's connection to PT and OT. Hope has to apply to him as well.
Again, there's a difference between what's in the text and creating blindness to it because it doesn't appeal to you and thus thinking that there's nothing in the text that supports it even though there is. I notice that kind of blindness in case of Finn and Rose, for example. They are the only characters that have romance in the text, not "well, this and that could be interpreted as romantic, or not". She kissed him and said the L word. No other character in any combination can boast about either. I hear a lot about Finn being in love with Rey yet there's nothing in text that supports it. he never said he loved her, he never kissed her, in short, what he feels for her is up to interpretation depending on preference. Likewise, I hear a lot about Kylo being in love with Rey and that his proposal was a marriage proposal. Yet no words such as love, marriage etc ever made it into text. So, again, up to individual interpretation. my point is that shippers tend to erase Finn and Rose because that doesn't serve their narrative (Finnrey, Storm Pilot) or think of Finn and Rose as just a side dish to main meal (Reylo) even though the pairing is most likely going to be ST's only romance. Once again, Rose made her feelings for Finn known, and Finn spend the last scene caring for her, not entertaining Rey or Poe. Go figure.
Again, there's a difference between what's in the text and creating blindness to it because it doesn't appeal to you and thus thinking that there's nothing in the text that supports it even though there is. I notice that kind of blindness in case of Finn and Rose, for example. They are the only characters that have romance in the text, not "well, this and that could be interpreted as romantic, or not". She kissed him and said the L word. No other character in any combination can boast about either. I hear a lot about Finn being in love with Rey yet there's nothing in text that supports it. he never said he loved her, he never kissed her, in short, what he feels for her is up to interpretation depending on preference. Likewise, I hear a lot about Kylo being in love with Rey and that his proposal was a marriage proposal. Yet no words such as love, marriage etc ever made it into text. So, again, up to individual interpretation. my point is that shippers tend to erase Finn and Rose because that doesn't serve their narrative (Finnrey, Storm Pilot) or think of Finn and Rose as just a side dish to main meal (Reylo) even though the pairing is most likely going to be ST's only romance. Once again, Rose made her feelings for Finn known, and Finn spend the last scene caring for her, not entertaining Rey or Poe. Go figure.
Yeah, I think IF a 'redemption' happens, it will begin with a team-up around halfway through TRoS.
Edit: I should note that with all of this, I think 'redemption' is a strong word. He won't suddenly be a Jedi. I think it would be a fascinating opportunity to look at the life of someone after they've caused so much pain. Where do they go from there? How do they even begin to make things right?
Again, I think we just have completely separate views of Kylo as a character. Contrasting your perspective, I think it would be a waste to take a character as well-rounded as Ben/Kylo and simply end his arc with "he's evil, now he's dead." But, excitingly, we only have 6 months until we find out!!
Kylo is getting redeemed. Bet on it. He will also die after being redeemed.
SW is still a morality tale for children. They aren't going to end the trilogy with the idea that some people are just evil and you can't ever redeemed them and are a fool for trying, even though that is realistic. He'll get saved and then die in some act of sacrifice. I never expected anything different.
Sound right. JJ said in VF interview that Force bond between Rey and Kylo is back and it's running deeper than they thought. Daisy said relationship between Rey and Kylo will be explored in greater depth. She also said that, at the beginning of the movie, Rey doesn't think he could be redeemed. At the beginning of the movie. So all this - relationship explored in greater depth, character thinking one thing at the beginning (but likely changing her mind due to whatever is explored in greater depth), return of the Force Bond (that allows them to instantly know things about each other as opposed to having to know each other for years) sounds like we are not going to get typical hero and villain meet in the third act where the hero triumphs. Force bond elegantly circumvents both her friends and his companions to allow them to have scenes alone despite being accompanied by other characters. and finally, the return of Palaptine, the bane of his family. We still don't know how exactly Snoke (or was it Palaptine via proxy?) turned him. so that's something to take into consideration as well.
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There was also a picture they showed in a sizzle reel at Celebration (I was in the crowd and saw it, not sure if it's released online?) of Rey, Finn, and Poe standing with their weapons drawn looking at a figure who is clearly standing quite close. It looked like it was on the desert planet. Seemed like it could've been Kylo to me.
Also, can I just say how wonderful it is to have this thread where we can have legitimate conversations without the horrible toxicity found everywhere else?
That's not what I'm saying though. He was never completely evil, even Luke who has given up all hope for his redemption tells Leia that "no one's ever really gone". It's not a dichotomy. You're not either completely redeemed or not, just because it's what happened with Vader. GL ain't writing anymore.
I'm saying there's no doubt in my mind that he will continue to help Rey; she will be the last living being who keeps him influenced by the light. I personally think he will help her with he's feelings of loss and sense of belonging that she's wanted since she was s child.
Maybe he'll say something to her, show her something.
But ain't no way he's being redeemed in the eyes of the resistance or Luke, or even Leia.
That's what Rey is for. Otherwise why even bother developing Rey if the message is "we need her for him". Fuck all that. Part of her lesson in TLJ is that she was wrong and Kylo can't be saved. Luke may have been wrong about some things, but not that.
Rey thought she was going to bring him home. She failed and Luke knew it before she left.
very true. Also, yes, that sizzle reel kind of implies they may be looking at him though teaser opening indicates he'll be on Pasaana in some capacity (bond or actual presence) and perhaps interact with more characters than just Rey, FO, Luke.
Re: redemption topic. The way I see TLJ end is that Luke simply stated he (Luke) cannot save him, not that Ben cannot be saved. The door closing was never "this is over forever" but "it's up to you whether you sink or swim". Ben's redemption will be his own doing. as for Rey feeling compassion where others cannot, that's what distinguishes true hero from "lessers". Luke's compassion for Vader distinguished him from others, not his body count or fighting prowess.
I'm not gonna bother linking it since it's probably clickbait but I stumbled upon an article from We Got This Covered in which the writer claims they've been told that Rey will appear in one of the next trilogies.
WGIC is as reliable as The Express and similar rumor mongering media. Disregard. if it was an actual rumor (not something fabricated for clicks) it would be reported by reliable media.
There's literally no way anyone outside of Lucasfilm would have possession of that information at this juncture.
So I'm calling bullshit on that one.
There's nothing in the previous films that suggests Kylo will be redeemed.
He was given two opportunities for redemption and he outright rejected both, specifically in service of his own megalomaniacal ends.
Even his own mother admits he is beyond salvation.
Now, if Abrams finds a way to justify his redemption in RotS then maybe he can make it work but based on what we've been given thus far, Kylo's evilness and mercilessness has been established and compounded repeatedly.
There's a lot, actually. His biggest misdeed is still killing Han and that's all that casual viewers, who are huge majority, care about . they don't care about LST, his villagers, Finn recovered fine so Rey didn't bring that up but only Han's murder, and it was Hux who blew up Hosnian system not Kylo. You can blame Kylo for associating with that crowd but not for ordering the destruction, executing the destruction, giving a Nuremberg speech or even attending the rally (he was pointedly on his ship and not on SKB when Hux went full Hitler).
In TLJ, his master said that killing Han split Kylo's soul to the bone (means he regrets it) and then Kylo killed Snoke which is the most heroic takeout in ST so far. So that evens it out. he saved Rey, killed the big bad. Now, we are getting to the resistance part of the story. New Supreme Leader did not want to stop firing at the resistance but at the same time, resistance was the architect of its downfall due to incompetence of its leadership and their minions. so, again, that evens it out. they are at war. He deems them wrong. he keeps firing cause he can since they got themselves in that situation. That's all in the movie.
Finally, Crait. Luke's projection achieved 2 things: a) he doesn't have to kill Kylo and, more importantly, b) Kylo doesn't have to kill him (and add another major misdeed to his resume). So all Kylo did in TLJ is kill Snoke to save Rey (awesome), kill Praetorian Guards (awesome) and kill nameless Resistance redshirts (bad). oh yes, he made threats too (bad). I don't see how is this worse position than TFA where he killed Han and it wasn't clear whether he regretted it (TLJ clarified that he did).
So now we have TROS where Palpatine returns indicating that Supreme Kylo won't be our big bad. And that makes perfect sense. Palpatine was the big bad in 6 movies and ST would feel disconnected somewhat without him. so now he's back. In stories where there's a big bad above another, the lesser bad tends to redeem himself. from Johnny Lawrence to Vader to Mara Jade (wasn't she Palpy's protege?) etc, this pattern never failed.
as for his being given 2 opportunities, there are 3 movies. they are not gonna blow their load too early. it's the same reason why Force Bond was quasi-shut down at the end of TLJ. They need to open it in TROS in big fashion.
point being, his family wants him redeemed. His mother losing hope =/= wants the worst outcome for him. What makes movies satisfying is what satisfies characters in the movie and not few disgruntled fans. Kylo killed some fan's childhood hero and they want him dead. but that's not what childhood hero wants for his son and movie is written with his wishes in mind. And lets not forget that the biggest ST mystery is still how exactly Snoke turned Kylo. or was it Palaptine via a proxy? we don't know. we just know what caused the rift with Luke but not how he got turned. So that's a piece of a puzzle that will add up to redemption arc.
In TLJ, his master said that killing Han split Kylo's soul to the bone (means he regrets it) and then Kylo killed Snoke which is the most heroic takeout in ST so far. So that evens it out. he saved Rey, killed the big bad. Now, we are getting to the resistance part of the story. New Supreme Leader did not want to stop firing at the resistance but at the same time, resistance was the architect of its downfall due to incompetence of its leadership and their minions. so, again, that evens it out. they are at war. He deems them wrong. he keeps firing cause he can since they got themselves in that situation. That's all in the movie.
Finally, Crait. Luke's projection achieved 2 things: a) he doesn't have to kill Kylo and, more importantly, b) Kylo doesn't have to kill him (and add another major misdeed to his resume). So all Kylo did in TLJ is kill Snoke to save Rey (awesome), kill Praetorian Guards (awesome) and kill nameless Resistance redshirts (bad). oh yes, he made threats too (bad). I don't see how is this worse position than TFA where he killed Han and it wasn't clear whether he regretted it (TLJ clarified that he did).
So now we have TROS where Palpatine returns indicating that Supreme Kylo won't be our big bad. And that makes perfect sense. Palpatine was the big bad in 6 movies and ST would feel disconnected somewhat without him. so now he's back. In stories where there's a big bad above another, the lesser bad tends to redeem himself. from Johnny Lawrence to Vader to Mara Jade (wasn't she Palpy's protege?) etc, this pattern never failed.
as for his being given 2 opportunities, there are 3 movies. they are not gonna blow their load too early. it's the same reason why Force Bond was quasi-shut down at the end of TLJ. They need to open it in TROS in big fashion.
point being, his family wants him redeemed. His mother losing hope =/= wants the worst outcome for him. What makes movies satisfying is what satisfies characters in the movie and not few disgruntled fans. Kylo killed some fan's childhood hero and they want him dead. but that's not what childhood hero wants for his son and movie is written with his wishes in mind. And lets not forget that the biggest ST mystery is still how exactly Snoke turned Kylo. or was it Palaptine via a proxy? we don't know. we just know what caused the rift with Luke but not how he got turned. So that's a piece of a puzzle that will add up to redemption arc.
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- There was nothing heroic about Kylo killing Snoke. He did that entirely for his own gain. If anything, Rey was a convenient distraction that allowed him to exploit an opening and kill somebody who was clearly more powerful than him.
- I literally have no idea what you are referring to in regards to Kylo's justification for his continued assault on the Resistance. He's outright killing the good guys, his mother included.
- Kylo had no idea Luke was a projection. In reality he tried to kill him twice, once by focusing all the firepower at his disposal at his uncle and the second time he attempted to kill him on the ground during their confrontation.
- I also reject the notion that Kylo regretted killing Han. It harmed him spiritually (the Dark Side is weaker) but his response to that was to effectively try and murder his mother. That's sociopathy and megalomania, not regret.
- We have no idea in what capacity Palpatine is returning. Personally, I find it highly unlikely that he's going to suddenly re-emerge as the primary antagonist – that would be poor writing. It would be especially egregious given that Kylo was set up as the primary antagonist by the end of TLJ.
- What makes film (or any narrative) compelling is characters that make sense. After two movies demonstrating repeatedly that Kylo is an irredeemable murderer willing to exterminate his own family, the notion that he will suddenly find redemption isn't supported by the characterization offered thus far. If that is indeed the path Abrams is opting for, he'll effectively have to demonstrate some manner of justification for that directional change as it goes in contrast to what we've seen in the previous films and frankly, that would be nigh impossible to do because Kylo's callousness and thirst for power has been shown – time and time again – as insatiable.
Lol I never noticed the deckhand just hanging there
Also, I'm fairly sure there's a Tallie-focused story coming up in the Adventures comics
Haha, no need to apologize. <3 It was just like... "Not again... oh, it's Tallie. OH. LOL."
Correction:
"OH MY FUCK, WHAT IN THE NAME OF THE GODDESS EMILIA CLARKE HAVE YOU DONE?! HOW COULD YOU DO THIS?! TALLIE WAS THE TRUE HERO AND YOU STRUCK HER DOWN IMPERSONALLY AND WITH ZERO REMORSE! THIS TWEET REMINDS ME OF MY VENGEANCE!" #NOREDEMPTIONFORTALLIESLAYERS #TALLIEAKATHEBEST #CAPITALIZATION
I really do miss her!
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Digital Bits has sources saying that we're probably getting a Star Wars Saga 4K boxset next year: http://thedigitalbits.com/columns/my-two-cents/062519-1500
First, a duh; second, it's gonna be a rough time for my wallet if this and the TROS blu release at the same time.
First, a duh; second, it's gonna be a rough time for my wallet if this and the TROS blu release at the same time.
I actually just went into another Star Wars thread in this place.
Literally the first post I saw was a terrible take, so I backed out again lol
Literally the first post I saw was a terrible take, so I backed out again lol
I'm so into the return of the international title drama. Hearing all the different versions of "The Last Jedi" was fun.
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