Star Wars |OT2| This is getting out of hand. Now there are two of them! [NO LEAKS]

Einchy

Member
Oct 25, 2017
26,072
I wish that Lego game would release before TROS did and then have free DLC with all the TROS content, like, a week after the film releases. It'd be a great game to play as a lead up to TROS.
 

Plasma

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,252
I think it's good that they get to take their time with it and not rush it out for a movie release. That happened with the Disney Infinity TFA set and it meant they had to omit story moments and characters.
 

Lifejumper

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,402
MR: Well, not giving too much away, but when Yoda shows up in The Last Jedi, I thought it was a great moment. But then when you have him show up again in Knives Out, I thought it was egregious. I’m not going to tell you how to make movies, but it’s weird you did that.

RJ: Let me tell you something I’ve learned, Mike. You have to service the fans
Lol.

 

JB1981

Member
Oct 28, 2017
8,684
So is it canon that Rey and Ben are force-bonded ... and it was just Snoke that bridged their minds? That's what I'm reading on Wookpedia anyway. I always though that it was Snoke who connected them but it appears their force bond exists outside of that
 

sphagnum

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,901
So is it canon that Rey and Ben are force-bonded ... and it was just Snoke that bridged their minds? That's what I'm reading on Wookpedia anyway. I always though that it was Snoke who connected them but it appears their force bond exists outside of that
He began the bond but it continued after his death, which we see in TLJ when Rey closes the door of the Falcon on Kylo despite them not being near each other.
 

JB1981

Member
Oct 28, 2017
8,684
He began the bond but it continued after his death, which we see in TLJ when Rey closes the door of the Falcon on Kylo despite them not being near each other.
I know but I don’t think he did create the bond.

Several decades later, a Force-bond developed between the dark warrior Kylo Ren and the Jakku scavenger Rey. Ren's dark master, Supreme Leader Snoke of the First Order, used his powers to influence Ren and Rey's connection to each other, knowing that his oft-conflicted apprentice could not hide his feelings from Rey. As a result, they were able to communicate across the light-years of the galaxy, unaware that their minds had been bridged by Snoke in an effort to lure Rey into a trap. The connection between Ren and Rey, both of whom possessed raw strength in the Force, was powerful to the extent that they could physically interact with each other despite being in two separate locations. As their bond grew stronger, Rey sensed that her destiny was intertwined with Ren’s.
 

Einchy

Member
Oct 25, 2017
26,072
Snoke did say that Rey's awakening was in response to Kylo.

“Darkness rises, and light to meet it.”

I think that's where the bond first began but them being able to talk to each other was, at least at first, was because of Snoke. It'd be interesting to know if Snoke would've even been able to do that if Rey and Kylo weren't already connected in a way.
 

Surfinn

Member
Oct 25, 2017
20,117
USA
But Snoke literally says "it was I who bridged your minds".

What reason would he have to lie about this?
 

Oozer

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,246
I'd hesitate to take anything (beyond what was shown in The Last Jedi) about the Force connection between Rey and Kylo as gospel before Episode IX comes out. The cast has mentioned that the film will have more to say about it.

On an unrelated note:

 

Einchy

Member
Oct 25, 2017
26,072
I hope Knives Out was just a ruse to get Chris Evans and Daniel Craig into Star Wars as Jedis.

 

JB1981

Member
Oct 28, 2017
8,684
So there seems to be a big anti-RJ bias at TheForce.net forums. Mainly because of how he wrote Rey and her befriending Kylo and his attempt to “humanize” Kylo by showing him to be a victim of Luke’s error. They actually think he’s a misogynist and is only capable of writing alienated white male protagonists. Do you think there’s an undercurrent of misogyny in the Rey/Kylo dynamic?
 

Cross-Section

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,577
So there seems to be a big anti-RJ bias at TheForce.net forums. Mainly because of how he wrote Rey and her befriending Kylo and his attempt to “humanize” Kylo by showing him to be a victim of Luke’s error. They actually think he’s a misogynist and is only capable of writing alienated white male protagonists. Do you think there’s an undercurrent of misogyny in the Rey/Kylo dynamic?
I feel like this line of criticism leaves out the entire dang ending of the film, where Kylo is pretty throughly humiliated (in a way that frames him more as a villain than a victim) and is outright rejected by Rey, who has just experienced her most empowering moment in terms of saving the Resistance, in addition to Luke solidifying her role as “the last Jedi.”

Have the TFN folks brought that up at all?
 
Last edited:

Einchy

Member
Oct 25, 2017
26,072
There's a member here who is convicted that Poe's character arc is misogynistic which is hilarious since some hate this because it's too feminist.
 

JB1981

Member
Oct 28, 2017
8,684
I feel like this line of criticism leaves out the entire dang ending of the film, where Kylo is pretty throughly humiliated (in a way that frames him more as a villain than a victim) and is outright rejected by Rey, who has just experienced her most empowering moment in terms of saving the Resistance, in addition to Luke solidifying her role as “the last Jedi.”

Have the TFN folks brought that up at all?
They are pissed that she was written to open up to him at all, let alone turn him .. considering what he did to Han, Finn and her. They also think she’s just stupid to act on a force vision. Basically they think RJ just wanted to get them together but didn’t do the necessary work to get them there
 

Meowster

Member
Oct 28, 2017
4,174
Missouri
I think it was a bit messy to have The Last Jedi's story primarily be Kylo Ren and Luke's instead of giving Rey that focus (she does get her own moments, primarily with her coming to terms with her parents, but most of the movie is her reacting to the relationship Kylo and Luke have with each other) so I can see how that might frustrate people. At the same time, I understand wanting to make the most use of Adam Driver as you can as a director lol.
 

DiipuSurotu

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,550
France
I think it was a bit messy to have The Last Jedi's story primarily be Kylo Ren and Luke's instead of giving Rey that focus (she does get her own moments, primarily with her coming to terms with her parents, but most of the movie is her reacting to the relationship Kylo and Luke have with each other) so I can see how that might frustrate people. At the same time, I understand wanting to make the most use of Adam Driver as you can as a director lol.
She wasn't just reacting IMO. Most of what Kylo and Luke did in the film was caused, even on-screen, by Rey to begin with.
 

janusff

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
9,003
Austin, TX
let's be real. those dudes at theforce.net forums are claiming that TLJ is misogynist not because they think it actually is, it's because they didn't like the film. and are using that excuse as a scapegoat criticism.
 

Surfinn

Member
Oct 25, 2017
20,117
USA
It's not misogyny at all, but I'm still not a fan of Rey's sudden switch from "I hate you enough to attempt to murder you you twice with my blaster, you're a monster" to "He's our last hope". It borderlines on the "woman foolishly thinks she can save a 'love interest' who is clearly beyond saving" trope. I think it would have made a lot more sense for Rey to see the vision and be MUUUUCH more conflicted about actually thinking Kylo can be saved. However her failure is crucial to her entire development in TLJ so you really can't remove it.

I think it just needed more time to grow and feel believable. Because as it stands, it looks Rey look far more naive than who she was in TFA.

Archer, if you're still stalking me in this thread, there's your criticism for the day
 

janusff

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
9,003
Austin, TX
it makes sense there's a bit of naivete on her part since she just got exposed to this larger world, after living an incredibly small one on jakku. not to mention the dark side is all about deception and trickery, so that also makes sense she got roped into it all (not to mention kylo as well with snoke bridging their minds or whatever). but after all that, she stood up to kylo after he asked her to join him, and shut the door on his ass in his mind or whatever at the end.
 

Surfinn

Member
Oct 25, 2017
20,117
USA
it makes sense there's a bit of naivete on her part since she just got exposed to this larger world, after living an incredibly small one on jakku. not to mention the dark side is all about deception and trickery, so that also makes sense she got roped into it all (not to mention kylo as well with snoke bridging their minds or whatever). but after all that, she stood up to kylo after he asked her to join him, and shut the door on his ass in his mind or whatever at the end.
Yeah, I think conceptually it makes a lot of sense. I just think we needed another 10-15 minutes to bake it in and give Rey more motivation to 180, because in the film itself it has always felt way too abrupt to me.

When Bobby was still posting, he said something like "Rey survived by fixing broken things", which I always found intriguing in the context of Ben.
Seeing Rey and Palpatine in the same scene is gonna give me whiplash.

Oh my god the thought of Rey and The Senate on screen together is giving me fucking chills
 

Blader

Member
Oct 27, 2017
10,165
It is not sexist or misogynistic for a female character to open up or reach out emotionally to a male one.

There's this weird strain of thought (and it's not just re: Star Wars) of thinking feminism means writing women leads like the 'ideal' male leads: unabashedly flawless paragons of virtue, physical champions, who say and do and think and feel all the right things at the right times. They have all the best lines, all the coolest moves, and knock down anyone and everyone in their way because fuck them. But this is a super limiting way to write women! Writing a female character the same way you would write a male character doesn't make you feminist, it's actually kind of anti-feminist because it's still predicated on this idea of viewing protagonists through the lens of the traditional male stereotype lead.

It's a stupid attempt at a gotcha, as if a female character daring to tap into an emotional side is sexist while missing the whole point about feminism being about an equality of options for how you write female characters. This is what also irked me about James Cameron's argument about how Ripley and Sarah Connor were more feminist than Wonder Woman because they weren't supermodel sexy like Gal Gadot, when the whole point is that women should not have to look or act in one particular way to count as a character!

They are pissed that she was written to open up to him at all, let alone turn him .. considering what he did to Han, Finn and her. They also think she’s just stupid to act on a force vision. Basically they think RJ just wanted to get them together but didn’t do the necessary work to get them there
Why do all of these supposed Star Wars fans miss that grace and forgiveness are cornerstone concepts for the Jedi? Luke spent a whole movie trying (and succeeding) to redeem his mass-murdering father who we had previously seen kill his kindly old mentor, among many others.
 
Last edited:

JB1981

Member
Oct 28, 2017
8,684
It is not sexist or misogynistic for a female character to open up or reach out emotionally to a male one.

There's this weird strain of thought (and it's not just re: Star Wars) of thinking feminism means writing women leads like the 'ideal' male leads: unabashedly flawless paragons of virtue, physical champions, who say and do and think and feel all the right things at the right times. They have all the best lines, all the coolest moves, and knock down on anyone and everyone in their way because fuck them. But this is a super limiting way to write women! Writing a female character the same way you would write a male character doesn't make you feminist, it's actually kind of anti-feminist because it's still predicated on this idea of viewing protagonists through the lens of the traditional male stereotype lead.

It's a stupid attempt at a gotcha, as if a female character daring to tap into an emotional side is sexist while missing the whole point about feminism being about an equality of options for how you write female characters. This is what also irked me about James Cameron's argument about how Ripley and Sarah Connor were more feminist than Wonder Woman because they weren't supermodel sexy like Gal Gadot, when the whole point is that women should not have to look or act in one particular way to count as a character!


Why do all of these supposed Star Wars fans miss that grace and forgiveness are cornerstone concepts for the Jedi? Luke spent a whole movie trying (and succeeding) to redeem his mass-murdering father who we had previously seen kill his kindly old mentor, among many others.
They will say Luke was different because Vader is his father and he used to be a noble Jedi. Rey has no connection to Kylo, thus no reason to turn him.... except when she asserts that it could win the day. But they just handwave that aspect of it
 

Surfinn

Member
Oct 25, 2017
20,117
USA
It is not sexist or misogynistic for a female character to open up or reach out emotionally to a male one.

There's this weird strain of thought (and it's not just re: Star Wars) of thinking feminism means writing women leads like the 'ideal' male leads: unabashedly flawless paragons of virtue, physical champions, who say and do and think and feel all the right things at the right times. They have all the best lines, all the coolest moves, and knock down on anyone and everyone in their way because fuck them. But this is a super limiting way to write women! Writing a female character the same way you would write a male character doesn't make you feminist, it's actually kind of anti-feminist because it's still predicated on this idea of viewing protagonists through the lens of the traditional male stereotype lead.

It's a stupid attempt at a gotcha, as if a female character daring to tap into an emotional side is sexist while missing the whole point about feminism being about an equality of options for how you write female characters. This is what also irked me about James Cameron's argument about how Ripley and Sarah Connor were more feminist than Wonder Woman because they weren't supermodel sexy like Gal Gadot, when the whole point is that women should not have to look or act in one particular way to count as a character!


Why do all of these supposed Star Wars fans miss that grace and forgiveness are cornerstone concepts for the Jedi? Luke spent a whole movie trying (and succeeding) to redeem his mass-murdering father who we had previously seen kill his kindly old mentor, among many others.
Yep, this was heavily debated on GAF, that thread was a fucking mess. This right here, good post

That being said, I would have liked Rey to be more conflicted/her transition into "saving" Ben wasn't rushed.
 

Blader

Member
Oct 27, 2017
10,165
They will say Luke was different because Vader is his father and he used to be a noble Jedi. Rey has no connection to Kylo, thus no reason to turn him.... except when she asserts that it could win the day. But they just handwave that aspect of it
lol, I think the bolded would have been an easier sell before the prequels revealed that Anakin was a whiny ass brat of a Jedi.

Rey's reason to turn Kylo is the same as Luke's to turn Vader: they can sense the conflict in them and with it an opportunity for saving them.