Star Wars |OT2| This is getting out of hand. Now there are two of them! [NO LEAKS]

JB1981

Member
Oct 28, 2017
8,684
lol, I think the bolded would have been an easier sell before the prequels revealed that Anakin was a whiny ass brat of a Jedi.

Rey's reason to turn Kylo is the same as Luke's to turn Vader: they can sense the conflict in them and with it an opportunity for saving them.
Well, it’s what Obi-Wan told him
 

Surfinn

Member
Oct 25, 2017
20,117
USA
lol, I think the bolded would have been an easier sell before the prequels revealed that Anakin was a whiny ass brat of a Jedi.

Rey's reason to turn Kylo is the same as Luke's to turn Vader: they can sense the conflict in them and with it an opportunity for saving them.
There's a far more compelling dynamic here though that even allows Luke to consider turning Vader.. he knows he's his dad. So it feels more reasonable for Luke to believe in him and consider the possibility that he could be saved (the SW movies tell us that people who are family or very close are more attuned to each other's emotions and feelings). Rey has absolutely no connection to Kylo whatsoever, and what Rey saw Kylo do is far different from what Luke saw from Vader in the OT. Rey saw Kylo murder his dad, which is the inverse of Luke saving his father in ROTJ.

Like I said, you need more time in the oven to get from Rey calling Kylo a monster in TLJ via witnessing his senseless murder of family, to "he's the one". Because her reasoning for saving Kylo, in comparison to Luke's, is a way bigger leap that in some ways felt out of bounds for her character (in execution).

It's such a big leap that RJ needed Snoke as a plot device to even get there (bridging their minds so they can communicate and grow closer).
 
Last edited:

SArcher

Member
Oct 26, 2017
2,631
There's a far more compelling dynamic here though that even allows Luke to consider turning Vader.. he knows he's his dad. So it feels more reasonable for Luke to believe in him and consider the possibility that he could be saved (the SW movies tell us that people who are family or very close are more attuned to each other's emotions and feelings). Rey has absolutely no connection to Kylo whatsoever, and what Rey saw Kylo do is far different from what Luke saw from Vader in the OT. Rey saw Kylo murder his dad, which is the inverse of Luke saving his father in ROTJ.

Like I said, you need more time in the oven to get from Rey calling Kylo a monster in TLJ via witnessing his senseless murder of family, to "he's the one". Because her reasoning for saving Kylo, in comparison to Luke's, is a way bigger leap that in some ways felt out of bounds for her character (in execution).

It's such a big leap that RJ needed Snoke as a plot device to even get there (bridging their minds so they can communicate and grow closer).
But Ben was so swolo.
 

JB1981

Member
Oct 28, 2017
8,684
There's a far more compelling dynamic here though that even allows Luke to consider turning Vader.. he knows he's his dad. So it feels more reasonable for Luke to believe in him and consider the possibility that he could be saved (the SW movies tell us that people who are family or very close are more attuned to each other's emotions and feelings). Rey has absolutely no connection to Kylo whatsoever, and what Rey saw Kylo do is far different from what Luke saw from Vader in the OT. Rey saw Kylo murder his dad, which is the inverse of Luke saving his father in ROTJ.

Like I said, you need more time in the oven to get from Rey calling Kylo a monster in TLJ via witnessing his senseless murder of family, to "he's the one". Because her reasoning for saving Kylo, in comparison to Luke's, is a way bigger leap that in some ways felt out of bounds for her character (in execution).

It's such a big leap that RJ needed Snoke as a plot device to even get there (bridging their minds so they can communicate and grow closer).
She also thinks the force is literally guiding (and connecting her) to him, something Maz in TFA told her to let in and guide her.
 

Blader

Member
Oct 27, 2017
10,166
and what Rey saw Kylo do is far different from what Luke saw from Vader in the OT. Rey saw Kylo murder his dad, which is the inverse of Luke saving his father in ROTJ.
Why does that matter? Han is to Rey what Obi-Wan was to Luke. Rey should be even more outraged than Luke was because Kylo killed a blood relative and Vader didn't? (Ignoring that Vader did in fact twice try to kill Luke himself!)
 

Surfinn

Member
Oct 25, 2017
20,117
USA
She also thinks the force is literally guiding (and connecting her) to him, something Maz in TFA told her to let in and guide her.
She still has agency though, I think it's natural to at least be conflicted with what she's seeing and her experiences with Kylo/what she felt when she confronted him multiple times in TFA.
Why does that matter? Han is to Rey what Obi-Wan was to Luke. Rey should be even more outraged than Luke was because Kylo killed a blood relative and Vader didn't? (Ignoring that Vader did in fact twice try to kill Luke himself!)
Vader never intended to kill Luke. His plan was to turn him. It matters because he murdered his own family, which in SW, is basically the worst thing you can do, thematically anyway. There's a reason why it's called the Skywalker Saga, it's centered around family and redemption. Which makes Kylo's choice to murder Han in cold blood brand new territory.

Regardless, my point is that Rey had no other incentive to do a quick 180 on Kylo, and a force vision doesn't consider her agency and experience in the previous film with him. There should have at least contemplation before she made the decision that "he's our only hope".
 
Last edited:

JB1981

Member
Oct 28, 2017
8,684
She still has agency though, I think it's natural to at least be conflicted with what she's seeing and her experiences with Kylo/what she felt when she confronted him multiple times in TFA.

Vader never intended to kill Luke. His plan was to turn him. It matters because he murdered his own family, which in SW, is basically the worst thing you can do, thematically anyway. There's a reason why it's called the Skywalker Saga, it's centered around family and redemption. Which makes Kylo's choice to murder Han in cold blood brand new territory.

Regardless, my point is that Rey had no other incentive to do a quick 180 on Kylo, and a force vision doesn't consider her agency and experience in the previous film with him. There should have at least contemplation before she made the decision that "he's our only hope".
She is told by Luke not to do it and believes it will help them win and goes to him anyway. How is that not exhibiting agency?
 

Surfinn

Member
Oct 25, 2017
20,117
USA
She is told by Luke not to do it and believes it will help them win. How is that not exhibiting agency?
Because it's 100% because of whatever she saw in the vision, nothing else. Literally everything that happened in TFA (and the beginning of TLJ for that matter) is basically thrown out the window to get Rey to believe in Ben and redeem him as a savior.

"When we touched hands.." was literally her explanation to Luke lol
 

JB1981

Member
Oct 28, 2017
8,684
Because it's 100% because of whatever she saw in the vision, nothing else. Literally everything that happened in TFA (and the beginning of TLJ for that matter) is basically thrown out the window to get Rey to believe in Ben and redeem him as a savior.

"When we touched hands.." was literally her explanation to Luke lol
It’s not solely to redeem him though. She also believes this play will help the Resistance win the war.
 

Surfinn

Member
Oct 25, 2017
20,117
USA
It’s not solely to redeem him though. She also believes this play will help the Resistance win the war.
Well.. Yeah. But she believes she can turn him 100 percent because of the vision.

Literally nothing that happens before matters at this point, in her decision. Hence agency being removed.
 
Last edited:

JB1981

Member
Oct 28, 2017
8,684
She was reaching out to him before the vision though. He was there to listen and told her she wasn’t alone. She got a glimpse of Ben Solo. When he removes the glove it was meant to symbolize Ben Solo, not Kylo, reaching out to her. And then she gets the vision of him turning. The force has guided her to a place she had already imagined in her dreams (the island, the tree). I think were meant to think she’s taken Maz’s advice to heart. Don’t forget, she does offer the saber to Luke one final time and he refuses. This proves she was open to another possibility besides Ben being the only option.
 

Surfinn

Member
Oct 25, 2017
20,117
USA
She was reaching out to him before the vision though. He was there to listen and told her she wasn’t alone. She got a glimpse of Ben Solo. When he removes the glove it was meant to symbolize Ben Solo, not Kylo, reaching out to her. And then she gets the vision of him turning. The force has guided her to a place she had already imagined in her dreams (the island, the tree). I think were meant to think she’s taken Maz’s advice to heart. Don’t forget, she does offer the saber to Luke one final time and he refuses. This proves she was open to another possibility besides Ben being the only option.
I understand the symbolism, as it was also used throughout TFA. That line is a buffer for the following vision sequence that's completely disconnected with their previous interactions, where he's basically just saying dark, evil shit to pull her from the light. Which is why I keep stressing that it felt rushed.

When she said "neither are you", in the theater I literally said "wait..... what?" That line felt completely unearned. It needed much more development to get there.

I think you're really reaching with the Maz advice, she was talking about harnessing the force, not "believe whatever you see through the force no matter what". She clearly used her advice in TFA to defeat Kylo Ren. But then in TLJ she seems to still be completely confused as to what it really is, hence her lessons with Luke and asking quite literally "but what is it?"

Yeah, and she can still offer the saber to Luke one last time before leaving, that's not something that needs to be connected with her 100% devotion to turning Kylo Ren.

My problem with the vision piece of writing is that literally nothing before would have mattered. As long as the Force shows you something, you are just all aboard with no second thoughts or doubts, in a direct and massive contradiction with the plot/characterization that came before. That's called removing agency.

Don't forget, Yoda teaches us in ESB that you can't predict the future because it's always in motion. But of course, Rey doesn't know this, just an aside.

Though I'm quite worried that JJ is going to "it was the right vision, just the wrong time" redeem Kylo. I'm very worried he's going the 100% redemption route.
 
Last edited:

Drewton

Member
Oct 27, 2017
7,710
Reylo-ers on Twitter are seriously constructing Reylo fanfics around Adam Driver pictures I took and uploaded, this is not ok
 

Cheebo

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,989
Ann Arbor, MI
Reylo gets so weird but look. They are positive. They enjoy Star Wars. They aren’t angry white bitter incels unlike those who complain about TLJ every day.

So you know what? I find a lot of their obsession creepy and odd but they are more of a real Star Wars fan than those who are still angry about TLJ ever were or ever could be.
 

RyanW

The Fallen
Oct 27, 2017
4,235

Einchy

Member
Oct 25, 2017
26,072
JediPraxis over at r/StarWarsLeaks says Marvel plans to start 2 new on-going Star Wars series titled "Star Wars Saga" and "Empire Ascendant"

Hmmm, a bit too cryptic to know what they're about.

I'm still hoping one of them is set between TLJ and TROS but none of those titles seem like they would fit.
 

Cross-Section

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,577
One day, I hope to see a thread about Rian Johnson that doesn't immediately devolve into the same handful of opinions repeating over and over again in a choking miasma of spite and bad faith arguments
 

Cross-Section

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,577
Just wait until December when TROS will be Rian's fault

You heard it here
Yeah I totally expect people to stan for JJ and say shit like "he was just tring to fix Rian's mess!1!"

but I also do believe JJ will take a fair amount of heat off RJ, and TLJ will become better in retrospect to a not-insignificant number of people

and in a few years time, we'll have moved on to hating on how D&D fucked up the Old Republic setting, how KOTOR did it so much better, etc.

the filoni worship will remain more or less the same
 

Surfinn

Member
Oct 25, 2017
20,117
USA
Yeah I totally expect people to stan for JJ and say shit like "he was just tring to fix Rian's mess!1!"

but I also do believe JJ will take a fair amount of heat off RJ, and TLJ will become better in retrospect to a not-insignificant number of people

and in a few years time, we'll have moved on to hating on how D&D fucked up the Old Republic setting, how KOTOR did it so much better, etc.

the filoni worship will remain more or less the same
George Lucas will be your new god.
 

NinjaGarden

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,645
Reylo gets so weird but look. They are positive. They enjoy Star Wars. They aren’t angry white bitter incels unlike those who complain about TLJ every day.

So you know what? I find a lot of their obsession creepy and odd but they are more of a real Star Wars fan than those who are still angry about TLJ ever were or ever could be.
There's a dark side to all shipping fandoms.
 

Einchy

Member
Oct 25, 2017
26,072
I've seen 2 people banned and 2 warned for being assholes in threads related to RJ. I guess there's a mod out there that's tired of that shit, too.
 

Cross-Section

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,577
So that new Snoke comic. Good stuff. Pretty much confirms he was an abusive fool who mistakes powerful emotions for malevolent acts. Also, they're really setting up Bendemption here.