• Ever wanted an RSS feed of all your favorite gaming news sites? Go check out our new Gaming Headlines feed! Read more about it here.
  • We have made minor adjustments to how the search bar works on ResetEra. You can read about the changes here.

MisterHero

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,934
The film explicitly states that it has restarted the rebellion en mass.
You know what would've been cool? Aliens on various planets watching a transmission of Luke facing the FO. Or ignoring Leia's signal until Luke Fucking Skywalker shows up. Instead, we are just told these things.

Another thing, it's some kid who just knows what happens. (Luke told him the story through the Force?) The kid telling the story isn't even the Force-sensitive one. *shrugs*
 

Einchy

Member
Oct 25, 2017
42,659
You know what would've been cool? Aliens on various planets watching a transmission of Luke facing the FO. Or ignoring Leia's signal until Luke Fucking Skywalker shows up. Instead, we are just told these things.

Another thing, it's some kid who just knows what happens. (Luke told him the story through the Force?) The kid telling the story isn't even the Force-sensitive one. *shrugs*
That's what IX is for.

In TLJ we see a kid hearing the story for the first time and then having his own binary suns moment but he has that because of Luke.
 

Reven Wolf

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
4,563
You know what would've been cool? Aliens on various planets watching a transmission of Luke facing the FO. Or ignoring Leia's signal until Luke Fucking Skywalker shows up. Instead, we are just told these things.

Another thing, it's some kid who just knows what happens. (Luke told him the story through the Force?) The kid telling the story isn't even the Force-sensitive one. *shrugs*
Who would be recording/live streaming this?? How would allies arrive in time when Rey barely got here in time?
 
Oct 26, 2017
1,267
Well, I'm certainly not going to watch it again to check. But all I remember is him looking confused and in pain and then dying for no obvious reason.

I guarantee you that's what the majority of ordinary viewers saw as well.

I agree with you. Even if Luke achieved Nirvana or whatever then Rian didn't do a good job conveying that. It looked like the projection worked him over something hard, and then he died staring at the twin suns. Maybe a slight smile on his face or something would have helped.
 

Surfinn

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
28,590
USA
Of course it's an absurd argument, because you believe that because it made a ton of money that a lot of people don't think its' a bad film, ignoring the FACT that everyone who has a legitimate opinion good AND bad watched it and in all but rare cases paid money to watch it.
Are you going to pretend the vast majority of the hate/dislikes for this movie only comes from trolls and contrarians?
And you ignore the fact that Star Wars is basically treated like Christmas Day? It's engrained into our culture, where everyone will take notice, where thousands stand in line months and weeks ahead of time to be the first to watch it.
If you want to see natural reactions to it, where it's not part of their culture, go look at China for their neutral view to this movie and series.
You point toward us not mattering in the reaction of the movie and WANT to pretend that the general public would have a favorable view, just because they're a great unknown... maybe, who knows, because a large part of that general public goes online now and there's waaay more hate/dislikes of this movie online than with TFA. Go look at RT, IMDB, etc that proves that.


LOL NO. Again, there are already more official threads about TLJ here than on GAF, with more responses, despite the fact GAF was a larger forum.
Despite FEWER people watching this movie than TFA (i assume, since ticket sales are far less). Go look them up to refresh your memory.
Yet you want to make something shit up, that people are only going to be more critical about later movies, based on WHAT? TPM is faaar more criticized than AotC/RotS, thanks in part to RLM. And RotS is actually liked (i still don't know where the major hate for AotC came from). ESB is reviewed better than ANH by many. RotJ is about average.


Maybe i am letting every single place where common people can share their opinions has way more hate/dslikes for this movie than the previous movie color my view, but i sure don't need to lie to myself that ticket sales = likes and Ciname Score isn't heavily biased by surveying people on opening night which has hugely biased opinions about Why Christmas Morning Is The Best Day of the Year.


But the PT didn't get the drop in weekly sales like TLJ. Again, word of mouth is an actual real thing. THIS shows audiences reactions to the movie. THIS shows opinions being shared.
If people are sharing their opinions with one another, negative views are going to get fewer people to go week after week, hence the larger than normal drops for TLJ vs every other STar Wars film. TFA and R1 fared much better than TLJ.
Are you going to pretend word of mouth doesn't affect sales and the fact that TLJ fared worse than ALL the other Star Wars movies... except for Clone Wars? Fucking second to last place right there.
I'm not ignoring that people voice their strong opinions on forums and online review sites. My point is that you're getting a skewed selection of people who are voicing their opinion. Are you really trying to tell me that complaining/praise on ERA is representative of the general audience? We're posting on a freakin' gaming forum. You're getting a viewpoint from people who like to argue about games and entertainment, not reception from a mom, dad, grampa, kids, etc. You're getting opinions from people who like to argue about gaming/entertainment and are infamously overly critical about anything and everything.

And in regard to the online review stuff.. RT has an average of 46% with like 150k reviews, IMDB has 7.5/10 with about 260k reviews (a whopping 5% less than TFA, which is sitting at 8/10). What's the reasoning for this enormous discrepancy in review scores? 46% vs 75% tells you that there are a lot of shaky variables and factors involved. That's almost a 30 point swing. That's not reliable, and it's certainly not a good way of determining general audience reception of the film. That doesn't mean it's worthless, it just means its extremely flawed in producing realistic results.

You don't get to just cherry pick China and say "welp, TLJ sucks outside of the US". The original films didn't even premiere in China and were all released way later. By the time the film is done in theaters, it's going to have about 700M, possibly more for foreign gross. That's 62% of what TFA earned, outside of the US. Which is about in line with the overall WW, which will settle at 65%, which is in line with the other two trilogies. The domestic grosses are pretty much exactly the same from 1st to 2nd films in all three trilogies.

You're wrong about there not being much outcry for TFA. I was there, I participated in all three of the OTs there. There was the same amount. I already listed some of the biggest pieces of criticism in my other post. It just took people longer to complain about it because people were dazzled by SW returning to the big screen after the massive (fan) disappointment of the PT. You can ask anybody else who was there during that time; the backlash came, it was just delayed. And it showed up full force. Go take a look for yourself.

You're very much in a bubble if you think the way people talk about TLJ here is representative of the average moviegoer. Their expectations are far lower and they just want to be entertained. The PT shows us this. It's got critically panned story/characters, but they do recognize how incredible the visuals were at the time. People mainly go to the movies for the spectacle. Which is why we see the PT hitting CinemaScores of A-. Because people aren't fucking pining over minute details and literally crying because Luke Skywalker didn't turn out the way they wanted (we had a few people comment that they cry thinking of how Luke was treated, one guy said he cries every single day over this). If it's a SW film that is decently constructed as a piece of entertainment in the most shallow sense (ie isn't a complete fucking disaster in every way), that's good enough for them.

They just wanna have fun.
 
Last edited:

modoversus

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,675
México
If you want to see natural reactions to it, where it's not part of their culture, go look at China for their neutral view to this movie and series.

China is not neutral regarding Star Wars, since the movies were never big there due to many cultural factors unique to the country.

'Episode VIII' leans heavily on references to the originals, and that doesn't play with young audiences in the world's No. 2 market.

The problem for Disney isn't just that its most valuable film franchise is doing poorly in the world's second-largest film market — it's that the situation appears to be worsening with each release. The Force Awakens totaled $124 million in China in 2016 (a number already well below Disney's forecasts, sources told THR at the time), and franchise spinoff Rogue Oneearned $69 million in 2017 — a total Last Jedi almost certainly won't match.

Partly explaining the erosion, The Force Awakens benefited from pent up curiosity about the Star Wars brand, while Rogue One generated some local excitement with the meaningful roles and well received performances of its Chinese co-stars, Donnie Yen and Jiang Wen.

Last Jedi had neither of these factors going for it, and it also had the bad luck of opening opposite The Ex-File 3: The Return of the Exes, a local romantic comedy that exploded into a surprise hit ($275 million in three weekends).

As many have pointed out, a large part of Star Wars' struggles in China stem from the fact that the original three films never received a wide release in the country (When Star Wars: A New Hope came out in 1977, China was deeply impoverished and only beginning to recover from the ravages of the Cultural Revolution).
 

Einchy

Member
Oct 25, 2017
42,659
I just imagine the inverse, China releases a massive franchise in America that's 7 movies in deep that references things from a movie that came out 40 years ago. That shit would tank so hard in America.

Goddamn, just imagine the whole Yoda scene if you hadn't seen Empire or Jedi. It makes no sense and there's no emotional connection there.
 

MisterHero

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,934
Who would be recording/live streaming this?? How would allies arrive in time when Rey barely got here in time?
They were actively broadcasting a signal and Poe had binoculars which could've had streaming capability. Star Wars tech man, forwards some ways and backwards in others. :P

It doesn't have to end with them saving the Resistance, just with the allies talking. Anything instead of just telling people what's happening.
 

Reven Wolf

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
4,563
They were actively broadcasting a signal and Poe had binoculars which could've had streaming capability. Star Wars tech man, forwards some ways and backwards in others. :P

It doesn't have to end with them saving the Resistance, just with the allies talking. Anything instead of just telling people what's happening.
But they had to evacuate, Sono one would be around to broadcast the whole thing?

It makes sense for it to spread via word of mouth because that's how major rumours and legends gain traction.
 

Seeya

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
7,984
You know what would've been cool? Aliens on various planets watching a transmission of Luke facing the FO. Or ignoring Leia's signal until Luke Fucking Skywalker shows up. Instead, we are just told these things.

Another thing, it's some kid who just knows what happens. (Luke told him the story through the Force?) The kid telling the story isn't even the Force-sensitive one. *shrugs*

Yeah that is something that I think they could have bridged a bit better.

they had zero predisposition towards it but it's clear that unti TLJ the brand had potential. Neither TFA nor RO collapsed like this.
 
Last edited:

thefro

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,996


37:00-38:00 perfectly explains why writing something just because "nobody will expect it" and changing things that were setup before is horrible storytelling.
 

modoversus

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,675
México
Yeah that is something that I think they could have bridged a bit better.


they had zero predisposition towards it but it's clear that unti TLJ the brand had potential. Neither TFA nor RO collapsed like this.

Not really. As the article says, each, one is doing less business, because it requires a familiarity with the OT as a cultural phenomenon, which they don't have.

A movie sequel that hevily references a series of old movies barely anyone had seen in China in the last 30 years is not going to jump start the franchise there.
 

irbri

Member
Nov 2, 2017
219
Star Wars tech in these new movies has become arbitrary. Maybe that was inevitable with every new movie having to do something new and thus getting closer to "superman" syndrome. "What works in one movie, is suddenly not working anymore in the next".
e.g. AT-ATs being too heavily armored for small fighter fire in ESB, then being shown to be killable by X-Wing lasers and even firearms fire in RO.
Some folks call this silly nitpicks "why are you wanting logic in a saga of space wizards you hater"?
It's you not paying attention.
If you didn't notice, the AT-ATs on that beach planet were being used to transport cargo around. They also seemed to use less armor because of that. So it's why the X Wing was able to destroy them.. nevermind that XWings and the Snowspeeders would use different weaponry.

Simple things like what types of ships have hyperspace drive and what don't, seem to change on a movie by movie basis.
I mean these escape transports from the cruiser. How come they have a cloaking device - which before (specifically mentioned in ESB) were an impossible thing for craft the size of a Millennium Falcon and only bigger capships had the tech?
And then at the same time the escape transports lack the hyperspace drive, something even the smallest fighters on rebel side have?
It's 30 years later, so maybe they were able to make cloaking devices that small... but i think the implication is that cloaking makes them disappear. Darth Maul's ship had a cloaking device, but you can explain that away as the Sith wanting stuff like that to be kept secret.
So those transports weren't using cloaking, they were just jamming their signature or something, because how else would a cracker even be able to make them visible. I mean, electronically, because they clearly weren't invisible to the naked eye... and how the Star Destroyers did NOT track visible ships fleeing like that is dumb as fuck, since almost everything in SW has combat done through visual confirmation.
And yeah, them not having light speed engines is just another stupid contrived thing, especially considering they had other lightspeed craft in the surving hanger bays and they ignored them to help cause NOTMENTIONEDATALLunlessyou'reamaincharacter.

Another thing most folks will probably have their eyes role back at the sheer unbelievable nitpickyness:
In the OT bigger capital ships were never shown planetside, hovering above a city or base. They had SOME SENSE of reality to them in this regard. Sure SW never cared for Newtonian physics but the ruleset seemed to be: You cannot go with a Star Destroyer and just hover endlessly above e.g. HOTH rebel base, or ENDOR shield generator.
The new movies threw this out, in favor of even more impressive visual spectacle.
You forget the Rebels kept their ships on the ground in ESB and those were really big and lacking in aerodynamics. So it's a given that they have magical engines to keep them hovering no matter their size and Star Wars physics ensures they don't break apart. See also the Super Star Destoyer being able to hover over the Deathstar 2 and it clearly affected gravity enough for the SSD to fall into it when it was incapacitated.
Why they wouldn't do that in Endor or Hoth is simply because capital ships are gigantic sitting ducks. We saw that various ships did use aerodynamics, likely for use in atmosphere. So the big bulky ships wouldn't be as manuerable and we even saw them continue that logic by using TIE Fighters that had wings like planes do for atmosphereic combat
Plus, Hoth had a planetary cannon to fend off any large ship to hover directly over them, come at them even over land, and of course, in space directly in view of the cannon and that's why the Star Destroyers didn't want to get too close and needed to land their transports so far away from the hidden base.

BTW, if you didn't notice it, but that gerbel alien that was firing at the AT-AT was using the same type of weapon to take out electronics like the planetary cannon disabling the Star Destroyers, aiming at weak points. You could see the crackle of energy spreading through the legs when it started being afffected just like the Star Destroyers in ESB. Anything can eventually give under a heavy barrage of fire, especially if you're aiming at a weak point.

I think the writers and others involved with Rogue One paid much closer attention to all these little details to make it consistent with the OT and PT, unlike the Jar Jar Abram movies.
 
Last edited:

irbri

Member
Nov 2, 2017
219
Uh, that's exactly why China is neutral. It's not part of their pop culture or viewed as some important thing. They're not raving about it for months and years on end, wanting to watch it no matter what.
It's just another movie to them and ANY laurels would rest on the content within the movie itself. TLJ was a gigantic stinker for them.
Star Wars shit here is praised solely because it has Star Wars somewhere in the title. They don't give it a pass because STAR WARS!!!!

I'm not ignoring that people voice their strong opinions on forums and online review sites.
You're dismissing and diminishing their opinions, just because they're online. You're also ignoring the fact that there's a way larger negative view on this movie than any movie before it. Sure, back in the 90s when i was online, the crowd was much smaller and mostly nerds, but the Special Editions and TPM was no where even close to the immediate negativity I've seen with TLJ. Same with all the 00s Star Wars movies. Almost all hate came much later (see RLM).
Are you really trying to tell me that complaining/praise on ERA is representative of the general audience?
Nope, hence my bringing up mainstream sites like IMDB/RT/youtube where normal people tend to go to.

And in regard to the online review stuff.. RT has an average of 46% with like 150k reviews, IMDB has 7.5/10 with about 260k reviews (a whopping 5% less than TFA, which is sitting at 8/10). What's the reasoning for this enormous discrepancy in review scores? 46% vs 75% tells you that there are a lot of shaky variables and factors involved. That's almost a 30 point swing. That's not reliable, and it's certainly not a good way of determining general audience reception of the film. That doesn't mean it's worthless, it just means its extremely flawed in producing realistic results.
Considering how most professional critics have given it almost nothing but praise (despite also pointing out various flaws. Imagine that!), while the general audience is apparently so split, I don't think any metric is reliable (hence most people saying you should only follow reviewers who share similar likes/dislikes/eccentricities as you). People tend to go to extremes, especially when people bitch about reviews if their favorite series gets a 91.5/100.
IMDB is known for giving high scores to movies that aren't even released. So you have to take that into account when viewing their scores (remember what the score was before release and only start counting those after the release). Remember how RT's user score suddenly dropped after its release and people thought RT was hacked because of that? I sure do.

You don't get to just cherry pick China and say "welp, TLJ sucks outside of the US".
Didn't say that. All I'm using China for is it points toward the trend of dislike for the movie they have no fond attachment to and word of mouth. I haven't read anything about Chinese reviews or their opinions, but again, the giant drop in sales points toward a largely negative view on it. Big opening, dramatic fall afterward. It's the same thing that happened in the US, but not as extreme.
The original films didn't even premiere in China and were all released way later.
That's the point and why they had a more neutral view coming into the move. It's not engrained into their culture as being MUST WATCH like Star Wars is here. Again, it's just another movie to them.
So they watched TFA, seemed ok with it, because it did well every week. They watched R1, not in as great numbers as TFA, but they also seemed ok with it. TLJ? Also experienced a shrinking audience, maybe only made up of the hardcore, and then a GIANT drop that made theaters all but drop the movie on their screens.
Word of mouth or did a massive natural disaster strike China during its release?
You're wrong about there not being much outcry for TFA.
I didn't say this either. I said that TLJ's was much bigger.
I was there, I participated in all three of the OTs there.
I was there too, i just didn't participate because of how ambivalent i was toward the movie. Very very meh, swinging toward bad, but whatever.

You're very much in a bubble if you think the way people talk about TLJ here is representative of the average moviegoer.
How is noticing that there's so much more hate/dislikes almost universally online being in a bubble?
You have nothing to prove that general audiences must have loved the movie, using an extremely flawed logic that ticket sales = because people liked it.
Using ticket sales by week is a good metric to gauge audience's likes, because word of mouth does affect sales. So again, how much of a drop did TLJ get? How did that compare to previous movies?
When those drops are larger than every movie but Clone Wars, it paints a really clear picture in how many people are speaking poorly about the movie, especially when 90something% of professional reviewers that have millions of readers/watchers recommend the movie.
Again, TFA got a lot of hate too, but TLJ is obviously worse off as shown through ticket sales.
Which is why we see the PT hitting CinemaScores of A-
That's cool how you say that our opinions don't matter because we're giant nerds, ignoring the fact that a large part of movie goers on opening night will be the fanatics and they'll be the ones being asked what to grade the movie at.

They just wanna have fun.
I'm pretty sure almost everyone who watches a movie like Star Wars wants this too.
Not everyone will agree on what fun is though, as seen by these dozens of threads on how TLJ wasn't.
 

Chris Best

Member
Dec 10, 2017
138
First non-prequel Star Wars that I've seen once and don't have any desire to see again. Just bad on so many levels.

After TFA, it seemed like Disney "Got it". I expected another tightly paced movie with great action sequences. This mess had none of that. It got near prequels level bad on the casino planet, especially when they started going into the back story of those horse creatures. And my god, the disappointment when I learned Luke was phoning things in from another planet at the end. What the hell?

Depressing if this is the new direction. Felt like all the other Marvel/Transformers popcorn movies that flood the theatres. Feeling like "Star Wars" again is something they desperately need to get back to.
 

modoversus

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,675
México
Uh, that's exactly why China is neutral. It's not part of their pop culture or viewed as some important thing. They're not raving about it for months and years on end, wanting to watch it no matter what.
It's just another movie to them and ANY laurels would rest on the content within the movie itself. TLJ was a gigantic stinker for them.
Star Wars shit here is praised solely because it has Star Wars somewhere in the title. They don't give it a pass because STAR WARS!!!!

Way to ignore the entire content of the quotes or the article. Not going to waste any more time. Have a nice day.
 

Surfinn

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
28,590
USA
I didn't say this either. I said that TLJ's was much bigger.

I was there too, i just didn't participate because of how ambivalent i was toward the movie. Very very meh, swinging toward bad, but whatever.


How is noticing that there's so much more hate/dislikes almost universally online being in a bubble?
You have nothing to prove that general audiences must have loved the movie, using an extremely flawed logic that ticket sales = because people liked it.
Using ticket sales by week is a good metric to gauge audience's likes, because word of mouth does affect sales. So again, how much of a drop did TLJ get? How did that compare to previous movies?
When those drops are larger than every movie but Clone Wars, it paints a really clear picture in how many people are speaking poorly about the movie, especially when 90something% of professional reviewers that have millions of readers/watchers recommend the movie.
Again, TFA got a lot of hate too, but TLJ is obviously worse off as shown through ticket sales.

That's cool how you say that our opinions don't matter because we're giant nerds, ignoring the fact that a large part of movie goers on opening night will be the fanatics and they'll be the ones being asked what to grade the movie at.


I'm pretty sure almost everyone who watches a movie like Star Wars wants this too.
Not everyone will agree on what fun is though, as seen by these dozens of threads on how TLJ wasn't.
Because, like I said, discussing TLJ online is not representative of the average moviegoer. Do you really think the majority of people who pay to see SW go home and post on ERA? Or go home and write a review of the film online? And again, why is there a 30 point swing from RT to IMDB? That's fucking enormous.

You're living a bubble because people who go angrily write about how much they hate SW on message boards are a fraction of people who represent moviegoers. They're often overly critical and hyperbolic with their hate. Hence the mentioning of a loud minority. They're not representative of someone who is just looking to enjoy the spectacle and watch shit blow up.

Again, at the end of the day, the movie is right in line with both what ANH and ESB made, domestic and foreign. Like I said, if you remove the freaking opening weekend, you're still over 1B off of a 200M budget. That's not bad word of mouth. You wanna see bad WOM, take a look at the frontloaded DC films. TLJ was never expected to do TFA numbers. It was expected to do worse. Which is in line with the other two trilogies.

Lol, literally no one said online opinions don't matter. Stop taking it so personally.
 
Last edited:

Cybersai

Banned
Jan 8, 2018
11,631
First non-prequel Star Wars that I've seen once and don't have any desire to see again. Just bad on so many levels.

After TFA, it seemed like Disney "Got it". I expected another tightly paced movie with great action sequences. This mess had none of that. It got near prequels level bad on the casino planet, especially when they started going into the back story of those horse creatures. And my god, the disappointment when I learned Luke was phoning things in from another planet at the end. What the hell?

Depressing if this is the new direction. Felt like all the other Marvel/Transformers popcorn movies that flood the theatres. Feeling like "Star Wars" again is something they desperately need to get back to.

I don't see how you got Luke phoning it in. The casino part could have been shortented but the action scenes and ship battles were among the best of the series.
 

irbri

Member
Nov 2, 2017
219
Way to ignore the entire content of the quotes or the article. Not going to waste any more time. Have a nice day.
So you quoted the most important parts, i assumed, but not really? But that no longer matters cause you got nothing and want a quick win-argument by running away? ... does anyone even believe that these sort of responses are honest?

Again, China is neutral, because they didn't grow up with the OTs, PTs, so all these new movies are only resting on their laurels of telling a good story. If these two films need you to remember all that shit from previous movies, they're not good movies.
I mean, FUCK, i know i read comics right in the middle of a story arc and if i liked it, i actually went out and bought everything else to catch up with what is currently going on. I'm not alone in this either, because there's soooo many LTTPs and there's teenagers and kids today that who do the same thing with movies, books, music, etc etc etc.
If these movies aren't getting them to go out and buy the old stuff, the new content being created is the problem.

And to bring this up again, toy sales for TLJ aren't doing well compared to FA and R1. This points toward kids today, here in the US, land of Star Wars Day AND Force Day, not accepting this movie either.
 

Cybersai

Banned
Jan 8, 2018
11,631
I have a question, how many rebels actually survived on Crait? From the sheer mass of ships that were destroyed and the pilots that went down in the final battle, it didn't look like that many people boarded the Millennium Falcon at the end. Like...20 people or less?
 

MagicHobo

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,600
And to bring this up again, toy sales for TLJ aren't doing well compared to FA and R1. This points toward kids today, here in the US, land of Star Wars Day AND Force Day, not accepting this movie either.
Are you aware that toy sales were down significantly prior to the movie even coming out? And this was the case for the many months leading up to it? Is this is also a sign kids didn't like the movie or what?
 

irbri

Member
Nov 2, 2017
219
ship battles were among the best of the series.
Lies and slander! Tortful even! How dare you sully the Star Wars name claiming the most boring battles in the series as the epitome!
Poe's run on the dreadnought was overblown and exaggerated, but OK, i can see people loving that. But the fucking bombing run, where they SLOWLY go out and then get shot down in a row becuase all they're doing is going straight ahead, SLOWLY, with only one SLOWLY crawling its way, with pieces just falling everywhere, but not actually doing anything to stop it, despite all the other ones being completely destroyed in mere seconds, because it HAS to make it directly over the Dreadnought's weak point, with NO dodging or weaving, nor ANYTHING exciting, because everyone but the button pusher is dead. Somehow they wanted to make the button pushing super exciting, so its suuuper dramatic of a lady falling around and grimacing and crying just to push a button to WIN GAME.
Dumb.

The other space battle is just as bad, because it's three ships destroying everything in their path with no resistance from the Resistance and then suddenly get called back because no-reason-except-to-let-the-good-guys-win. One sided battles aren't as fun as when there's pushing and pulling from two sides, that naturally let things happen, instead of jarring asspulls out of nowhere.

.. was there another space battle besides the 2mph chase with the capital ships and shooting of motionless fueless ships? Because i don't think this can even count as a space battle, just an exchanging of light signals, as admitted by the newly appointed Jar Jar Binks of the new trilogy. Man, his slapstick was hilarious, huh???
 
Last edited:

irbri

Member
Nov 2, 2017
219
Are you aware that toy sales were down significantly prior to the movie even coming out? And this was the case for the many months leading up to it? Is this is also a sign kids didn't like the movie or what?
Force Day happens in August.
That's when they've been releasing the new toys for the soon to be released Star Wars movies.
But thanks letting me know even that was a poor show. Retailers showing lack of confidence isn't abnormal, even with huge movies.

BTW, you can still find TFA toys on the shelves, despite being on clearance for 3 years straight and the various B1G1Free sales they do at random times throughout the year. So R1 should have faced worse sales, considering how much more TFA stuff was producing toxic radiation on the shelv... wait, i said this already.
But there you go, TLJ < R1, despite being a less watched movie (i assume, since ticket sales only show how much money people spent to watch it, not actual viewers).
 
Last edited:

MagicHobo

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,600
Force Day happens in August.
That's when they've been releasing the new toys for the soon to be released Star Wars movies.
But thanks letting me know even that was a poor show.

BTW, you can still find TFA toys on the shelves, despite being on clearance for 3 years straight and the various B1G1Free sales they do at random times throughout the year. So R1 should have faced worse sales, considering how much more TFA stuff was producing toxic radiation on the shelv... wait, i said this already.
But there you go, TLJ < R1, despite being a less watched movie (i assume, since ticket sales only show how much money people spent to watch it, not actual viewers).
You say "there you go" as if you made your point, but you never actually indicated out how anemic toy sales ahead of the movie indicate a poor reception of the film (you did, however, lay out a very reasonable timeline of how toy sales were struggling since even the very well received TFA). You are a hard person to follow, and I can see why the other person gave up. Sorry to take up your time.
 

irbri

Member
Nov 2, 2017
219
You say "there you go" as if you made your point, but you never actually indicated out how anemic toy sales ahead of the movie indicate a poor reception of the film.
I'm sad that you're treating my posts like the Chinese treat TLJ, not caring what was previously done.
And to bring this up again, toy sales for TLJ aren't doing well compared to FA and R1. This points toward kids today, here in the US, land of Star Wars Day AND Force Day, not accepting this movie either.
I'll work harder next time to make my posts more entertaining and interesting for you, unlike the TLJ designs, stories, and characters that kids aren't buying as much of like they did just a year ago.
 

irbri

Member
Nov 2, 2017
219
Do you really think the majority of people who pay to see SW go home and post on ERA?
I already said i don't, hence bringing up the major sites that any mom or dad would go to to see if a movie is good or not.
Or go home and write a review of the film online?
No, but they sure as shit can post a comment anywhere online and I'm seeing way more negative views than ever before.
And again, why is there a 30 point swing from RT to IMDB? That's fucking enormous.
Again, i already pointed out that places like IMDB are already pumping it up with high scores, undoubedtly based only on hype. So when the movie is actually released, months (years?) later, all honest ratings are going to be averaged out with nothing but that hype.
As for Russian Times, I pointed out that ratings suddenly dropped after its release. I know that RT has been only allowing those ratings to be put up only with the reviewer screenings are put out, so they're likely going to be higher at first (since people like myself wouldn't say shit because i've felt bad for the film makers and giving me free shit), but regular people who need to pay money? The flood gates open before the unreliable hype drowns out real opinions.

You're living a bubble because people who go angrily write about how much they hate SW on message boards are a fraction of people who represent moviegoers.
Says the guy who thought (thinks?) box office sales = LIKES and that CinemaScore isn't biased as hell.
Like i said, there's a lot of general audience sites out there where normal people will and do speak their mind, freely, and even there I've noticed the larger than previous trend of negativity.

Again, at the end of the day, the movie is right in line with both what ANH and ESB made, domestic and foreign. Like I said, if you remove the freaking opening weekend, you're still over 1B off of a 200M budget.
Yeah, "thinks"
You're ignoring word of mouth and how steeper weekly sales are a sign of negative words heeded.

That's not bad word of mouth. You wanna see bad WOM, take a look at the frontloaded DC films.
So because Justice League did worse, TLJ's aren't bad? Bad logic. Nevermind there's a hundred million zillion more fans for STar WArs than there are JL fans, so they're more likely to give the next Star WArs movie a chance despite negative opinions from their friends and even themselves.
Again, go look at China in what happens when you don't have that built in fanbase.
TLJ was never expected to do TFA numbers.
I agree, but compared to its own opening, it couldn't even do well relative to itself and how other SWs compared to themselves (as shown through weekly sales and how small/big the drops in ticket sales are)

Lol, literally no one said online opinions don't matter. Stop taking it so personally.
But that's what you're saying. The hundreds of thousands/millions of nerds shitting on a movie doesn't matter, because who cares if there's more of them hating on the movie, because "general audience" who you claim to know the real feel for and pretend they don't go online, because you believe ticket sales proves positive opinions.
 
Last edited:

Reven Wolf

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
4,563
Watched I Hate Everything's review. He
Liked it.


A shame he didn't go into even more specific detail, but he probably wanted to avoid the rabid hater death threats that he would have undoubtedly received (if he didn't already) for going on.

Overall yeah I agree with him that in no stretch of the imagination could it be considered a terrible or terribly executed movie, and doubly so when compared to a ton of recent blockbuster releases.
 

irbri

Member
Nov 2, 2017
219
A shame he didn't go into even more specific detail
He went into great specific detail about the negative parts, probably a longer list than I would give, but i guess he couldn't talk about the good parts because he was too busy shitting on haters and comparing the movie to worse movies, thus the last jedi isn't that bad! key phrase: "that bad"

I hate video reviews.
Way easier and faster to read someone's thoughts written down, with no time constraints and more effort put into expounding on your view, instead of putting a ton of time to also create a montage of video clips and graphics.
 

Reven Wolf

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
4,563
He went into great specific detail about the negative parts, probably a longer list than I would give, but i guess he couldn't talk about the good parts because he was too busy shitting on haters and comparing the movie to worse movies, thus the last jedi isn't that bad! key phrase: "that bad"

I hate video reviews.
Way easier and faster to read someone's thoughts written down, with no time constraints and more effort put into expounding on your view, instead of putting a ton of time to also create a montage of video clips and graphics.
Well he did mention good parts briefly, and did say it was a good movie.

I also prefer written reviews sinxebyiu can go into more detail while wasting less time.

But shitting on the haters is pretty well deserved because there's a difference between criticism and acting like a child over things, and unfortunately I see much more of the latter from the average naysayer than the former.
 

Cybersai

Banned
Jan 8, 2018
11,631
I've seen the movie twice now. It's probably the pinnacle of Star Wars movies. Adam Driver and Mark Hammil are fantastic.
 

BR2049

Member
Oct 28, 2017
936
What if the last jedi was the first movie in this new trilogy?

I am wondering whether it would be better or worse off.
From my very little time pondering this, I can't see why the last jedi couldn't have been the first film in this trilogy. It disregards massive parts of the force awakens. I can't think of a single thing where the last jedi couldn't have been the first time we learn/see it.

When you consider this, then it makes sense why some of us are frustrated, and others (who probably didn't enjoy TFA as much) would be happy. It's a complete do-over.

When you think about it. It's pretty weird.
 

BocoDragon

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
5,207
What if the last jedi was the first movie in this new trilogy?

I am wondering whether it would be better or worse off.
From my very little time pondering this, I can't see why the last jedi couldn't have been the first film in this trilogy. It disregards massive parts of the force awakens. I can't think of a single thing where the last jedi couldn't have been the first time we learn/see it.
I re-watched Revenge of the Sith a few weeks ago and that's basically true of that movie too. It could be the only prequel, and it would still work.

I have to say though, as a person who bitched endlessly about TFA being a retread, seeing the reaction to TLJ makes me think Disney knew what they were doing in serving up a reheated comfort food version of Star Wars to reintroduce the series. I think mass audiences needed a lighthearted adventure romp to dip their toe into the water.
 

irbri

Member
Nov 2, 2017
219
Well he did mention good parts briefly, and did say it was a good movie.

But shitting on the haters is pretty well deserved because there's a difference between criticism and acting like a child over things, and unfortunately I see much more of the latter from the average naysayer than the former.
Briefly? He spent more time on the bad parts than the good parts, but didn't really go into detail either way. Basically just lists.

Instead he wastes time attacking the haters or nitpicking the nitpickers. It's a stupid and that makes it seem he's only doing the review to get back at them.

Of course, I'm not familiar with this guy so this might be his thing to distinguish himself from other reviewers, which would be pretty damn manufactured if it is.
 

irbri

Member
Nov 2, 2017
219
What if the last jedi was the first movie in this new trilogy?

I am wondering whether it would be better or worse off.
From my very little time pondering this, I can't see why the last jedi couldn't have been the first film in this trilogy. It disregards massive parts of the force awakens. I can't think of a single thing where the last jedi couldn't have been the first time we learn/see it.

When you consider this, then it makes sense why some of us are frustrated, and others (who probably didn't enjoy TFA as much) would be happy. It's a complete do-over.

When you think about it. It's pretty weird.
You'd still have that girl who is better at everyone for no real reason aside from vague commentary from a evil bad guy who comes up with it out of nowhere, making you question who he is, but too bad he's dead in the first movie, leaving just as many unanswered questions as TFA did, because the head bad guy is now just an apprentice who wouldn't have that knowledge
It wouldn't be an improvement, unless there's an even evilier guy behind the scenes and that's even more 80s cartoonish than what we got.

You also still have the bad guys that have a vague history modeled after the old Empire, but no direct connection with them, making them look little better than cosplayers or reenactors with serious equipment.

The only thing that TLJ would benefit from being the first movie is you have two more movies to improve on the characters and story. Get better writers for a story that develops naturally and answer some questions, instead of wasting time in different locals doing pointless shit just to barely develop a character. They could have done the same thing to develop the character AND made his quest not roundabout, pointless, and contrived. bleh.
 

Seeya

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
7,984
Not really. As the article says, each, one is doing less business, because it requires a familiarity with the OT as a cultural phenomenon, which they don't have.

A movie sequel that hevily references a series of old movies barely anyone had seen in China in the last 30 years is not going to jump start the franchise there.

If a series that is supposed to be building a new beginning isn't actually doing that then that's still a problem. They never designed these films to rely on nostalgia, they're supposed to work on their own merits and be enriched by it where appropriate.

If these films can't stand on their own or build an audience then they are fundamentally weak films. Something like what's happening in China points to the same erosion happening in places that do have that history with the property because nothing is actually being built upon.
 
Last edited:

Surfinn

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
28,590
USA
I already said i don't, hence bringing up the major sites that any mom or dad would go to to see if a movie is good or not.

No, but they sure as shit can post a comment anywhere online and I'm seeing way more negative views than ever before.

Again, i already pointed out that places like IMDB are already pumping it up with high scores, undoubedtly based only on hype. So when the movie is actually released, months (years?) later, all honest ratings are going to be averaged out with nothing but that hype.
As for Russian Times, I pointed out that ratings suddenly dropped after its release. I know that RT has been only allowing those ratings to be put up only with the reviewer screenings are put out, so they're likely going to be higher at first (since people like myself wouldn't say shit because i've felt bad for the film makers and giving me free shit), but regular people who need to pay money? The flood gates open before the unreliable hype drowns out real opinions.

Says the guy who thought (thinks?) box office sales = LIKES and that CinemaScore isn't biased as hell.
Like i said, there's a lot of general audience sites out there where normal people will and do speak their mind, freely, and even there I've noticed the larger than previous trend of negativity.


Yeah, "thinks"
You're ignoring word of mouth and how steeper weekly sales are a sign of negative words heeded.


So because Justice League did worse, TLJ's aren't bad? Bad logic. Nevermind there's a hundred million zillion more fans for STar WArs than there are JL fans, so they're more likely to give the next Star WArs movie a chance despite negative opinions from their friends and even themselves.
Again, go look at China in what happens when you don't have that built in fanbase.

I agree, but compared to its own opening, it couldn't even do well relative to itself and how other SWs compared to themselves (as shown through weekly sales and how small/big the drops in ticket sales are)


But that's what you're saying. The hundreds of thousands/millions of nerds shitting on a movie doesn't matter, because who cares if there's more of them hating on the movie, because "general audience" who you claim to know the real feel for and pretend they don't go online, because you believe ticket sales proves positive opinions.
I took a look at the RT reviews and it's chalk full of half star and one start reviews spouting terms like "feminist garbage, SJW propaganda" and "please rerate your review to a one star instead of half star so that the film drops to a lower percentage" "there's no way the percentage should be this high. CHANGE YOUR REVIEW", lol. I've only read about 6 pages out of 2000, and it's infested with alt-right commentary and incendiary takes on women. Again, this is rage coming from a specific part of the internet and isn't representative of the general audience. Unless you think these viewpoints are representative of the average viewer, in which, yes, you'd be living in a bubble. That the average viewer is taking notes on the political commentary and walking out of the theater disgusted by how the dirty feminists are making the men look bad and that it's all propaganda.

Let me get this straight. You think Rotten Tomatoes viewer reviews (177k), which are filled to the brim with alt-right folks who inhabit reddit/4 chan (rating hyperbolic one star reviews), are more representative of the general audience's reception of TLJ than IMDB's (293k), and are actually going to claim with a straight face that the 293,000 reviews listed on IMDB aren't at all representative and are in fact only based on hype? What are you even trying to say here? It's got 116k more reviews than RT, which is clearly being hit by a section of the internet with a very specific agenda (complaining about women and SJW values, actively working to lower the percentage). But because the IMDB scores don't fit your narrative you're just saying "well, that's just all based on hype"

What

Take a look at the top 10 grossing films of all time:

Avatar, Titanic, TFA, Jurassic World, The Avengers, Furious 7, Age of Ultron, Deathly Hallows Pt. 2, Frozen, then TLJ.

Do you think any of these films were generally disliked by the audience? Box office numbers are a good way of determining if there should be a sequel or another movie made based on that movie. It's a determination of the general reception of the film. That doesn't mean everybody liked it. It just means the reception was generally strong among average moviegoers.

I'm not saying online reviews don't matter. I'm saying they're often heavily skewed and not representative of the general audience.

But anyway we're spinning wheels now. We're just gunna keep going back and forth without anything changing.
 
Last edited:

Seeya

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
7,984
I took a look at the RT reviews and it's chalk full of half star and one start reviews spouting terms like "feminist garbage, SJW propaganda" and "please rerate your review to a one star instead of half star so that the film drops to a lower percentage" "there's no way the percentage should be this high. CHANGE YOUR REVIEW", lol. I've only read about 6 pages out of 2000, and it's infested with alt-right commentary and incendiary takes on women. Again, this is rage coming from a specific part of the internet and isn't representative of the general audience. Unless you think these viewpoints are representative of the average viewer, in which, yes, you'd be living in a bubble. That the average viewer is taking notes on the political commentary and walking out of the theater disgusted by how the dirty feminists are making the men look bad and that it's all propaganda.

Let me get this straight. You think Rotten Tomatoes viewer reviews (177k), which are filled to the brim with alt-right folks who inhabit reddit/4 chan (rating hyperbolic one star reviews), are more representative of the general audience's reception of TLJ than IMDB's (293k), and are actually going to claim with a straight face that the 293,000 reviews listed on IMDB aren't at all representative and are in fact only based on hype? What are you even trying to say here? It's got 116k more reviews than RT, which is clearly being hit by a section of the internet with a very specific agenda (complaining about women and SJW values, actively working to lower the percentage). But because the IMDB scores don't fit your narrative you're just saying "well, that's just all based on hype"

What

Take a look at the top 10 grossing films of all time:

Avatar, Titanic, TFA, Jurassic World, The Avengers, Furious 7, Age of Ultron, Deathly Hallows Pt. 2, Frozen, then TLJ.

Do you think any of these films were generally disliked by the audience? Box office numbers are a good way of determining if there should be a sequel or another movie made based on that movie. It's a determination of the general reception of the film. That doesn't mean everybody liked it. It just means the reception was generally strong among average moviegoers.

I'm not saying online reviews don't matter. I'm saying they're often heavily skewed and not representative of the general audience.


I find it hard to believe that you're actually ceding every other point, I mean we can even see the drop off continuing to be greater than expected in the Box office thread with people noting that the film is taking longer to hit 600 million than was even expected a week ago. Likewise the film kept missing projections as it went on that were meant to incorporate the steeper drop off.

If you're so adamant that this film is not any more divisive than TFA then how can it have scored lower in every single user review site AND generated more posts on Resetera than TFA did on the old forum with fewer active users.

I think that pretty clearly points to the idea that people are passionate and that division is fueling discussion. Do you have a counter point?
 
Last edited:

irbri

Member
Nov 2, 2017
219
Wow, you're completely lost, because surely your ramblings aren't just you building a strawman, right?
Let me help you get back on track by restating my point two pages back because you kept using box office sales as proof people overwhelmingly like a movie
You're wrong that there's no real evidence, but there's no way to actually gauge how many people liked/disliked it either, considering how flawed their surveying is and box office numbers only prove how much money people spent to see the movie, not how many people went to see it, muchless whether they had a negative or positive view of the movie.
Again, using people's reactions on massive places, even here, and how the movie is performing compared to its own sales are general metrics to gauge audience's opinions on this movie. Again, using something like CinemaScore is completely skewed because of the type of people who go watch series with crazy fanboys like Star Wars. These type of people will overwhelming have a positive view, hence all the Star Wars movies sharing the same scores, despite the criticism (professional, online, etc).
Again, a series like Stars Wars is heavily skewed toward making money no matter what because of how engrained it is with multiple generations and our culture. Take that bias away and you can look at China to see how a neutral market reacts to it (not very well at all).
So even with using this rough guides, I can't claim there's a majority or minority opinion for this movie. Whati do know is that TLJ sure as hell is has gotten more hate than any movie I've seen, not even TPM got this amount of hate when it first came out (but the internet was much smaller back then), and it sure as hell has dropped more in sales than any other movie but Clone Wars (Which has a B on CinemaScore, unlike the other SW movies).

Also, I'm going through rottentomatoes and I've gone through 5 pages so far and I have not seen one remark about "feminist garbage, SJW propaganda" and so what if they did? They're fuck heads if they actually say anything sexist or racist, but they still dislike the movie for it. If 50% of everyone who watched this movie was a complete racist, would it still not mean the audience is divided on what they thought about the movie?
But no, it doesn't appear that way even now that I'm onto page 10, because a lot of the "reviews" actually go into detail about what they didn't like, if not just a simple negative comment (still haven't seen any sexist or racist ones in these, and only one that mentioned Social studies warrior to say fuck you for anyone using it to dismiss their opinion by using a strawman).
I mean, look at this
Warning: To all the people rating this movie half a star. RT is not counting your rating. That is why it keeps showing at 49%. I changed my rate to 1 star.

Now, here is the review.

While I was watching this movie I was constantly shaking my head in disbelieve about how bad this movie was. reasonsreasonsreasons
So because he wants people to give this movie a more negative review, his opinion that he didn't like the movie doesn't count?

If you're going to make up stupid abitrary rules on whose opinion on a movie counts or doesn't, it's no wonder you're never going to change your mind on anything and still stuck in ignorantly using box office totals as proof people like anything.
 

irbri

Member
Nov 2, 2017
219
Holy fuck, it's been a while since i looked at IMDB, but it's almost nothing but negative reviews for pages and pages and pages (or whatever you call it to bring up the next section).
This is the first review i saw that had something over an F, which i will assumed is a D because of how it's reviewed
7/10
Terrible Director, terrible technique
gabriel_artiga14 December 2017
Rian Johnson, clearly wasn't a choice for a movie of that magnitude. The movie edition was terrible, jumping from scenes to scenes in a very amateur way that kills all the drama.

The movie steal good ideas from other movies but in a way that makes you fell uncomfortable (and sorry) for watch it (Matrix Luke I'm talking about you), and I'm not even talking about the humor relief scenes, which makes me wondering if George Lucas was allowed to add scenes to the movies again.

So, I'm not judging it as a Star Wars history, but as movie. And as a movie it is ridiculous.
and I'm still going through page after page of bitter negative views.... and i found my first 10, followed by a 9, and then a drop back down the abyss.
Also, i love the insinuation from the 9 review
I should start by saying if you're an unwavering star wars fan who can enjoy the prequels then you will be able to enjoy this movie.
LOL
 

Seeya

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
7,984
Wow, you're completely lost, because surely your ramblings aren't just you building a strawman, right?
Let me help you get back on track by restating my point two pages back because you kept using box office sales as proof people overwhelmingly like a movie

Again, using people's reactions on massive places, even here, and how the movie is performing compared to its own sales are general metrics to gauge audience's opinions on this movie. Again, using something like CinemaScore is completely skewed because of the type of people who go watch series with crazy fanboys like Star Wars. These type of people will overwhelming have a positive view, hence all the Star Wars movies sharing the same scores, despite the criticism (professional, online, etc).
Again, a series like Stars Wars is heavily skewed toward making money no matter what because of how engrained it is with multiple generations and our culture. Take that bias away and you can look at China to see how a neutral market reacts to it (not very well at all).
So even with using this rough guides, I can't claim there's a majority or minority opinion for this movie. Whati do know is that TLJ sure as hell is has gotten more hate than any movie I've seen, not even TPM got this amount of hate when it first came out (but the internet was much smaller back then), and it sure as hell has dropped more in sales than any other movie but Clone Wars (Which has a B on CinemaScore, unlike the other SW movies).

Also, I'm going through rottentomatoes and I've gone through 5 pages so far and I have not seen one remark about "feminist garbage, SJW propaganda" and so what if they did? They're fuck heads if they actually say anything sexist or racist, but they still dislike the movie for it. If 50% of everyone who watched this movie was a complete racist, would it still not mean the audience is divided on what they thought about the movie?
But no, it doesn't appear that way even now that I'm onto page 10, because a lot of the "reviews" actually go into detail about what they didn't like, if not just a simple negative comment (still haven't seen any sexist or racist ones in these, and only one that mentioned Social studies warrior to say fuck you for anyone using it to dismiss their opinion by using a strawman).
I mean, look at this
So because he wants people to give this movie a more negative review, his opinion that he didn't like the movie doesn't count?

If you're going to make up stupid abitrary rules on whose opinion on a movie counts or doesn't, it's no wonder you're never going to change your mind on anything and still stuck in ignorantly using box office totals as proof people like anything.

And I mean, the film has also come in under professional forecasts. I just don't get this 'the film is not more controversial than TFA when EVERY data point says otherwise.

Professional Forecasts for TLJ
Box Office Pro (Domestic)
215 Opening week
742 Lifetime

THR
$750 - 800 million
$1.6 billion WW

It will probably hit 620 Domestic? And it will settle at nothing too notable over 1.3 billion.
 
Last edited:

modoversus

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,675
México
If a series that is supposed to be building a new beginning isn't actually doing that then that's still a problem. They never designed these films to rely on nostalgia, they're supposed to work on their own merits and be enriched by it where appropriate.

If these films can't stand on their own or build an audience then they are fundamentally weak films. Something like what's happening in China points to the same erosion happening in places that do have that history with the property because nothing is actually being built upon.

These movies are sequels to movies that came out more than 30 years ago, which reference these movies heavily. Obviously China does not have the same relationship as we do with Star Wars. But more important: box bffice in China does not decide if a movie is good or bad. Also, what erosion? Is this some more anecdotal "evidence"?