Star Wars: The Rise of Skywalker |OT| Revenge of a Sith (SPOILERS NOW OPEN)

Status
Not open for further replies.

Crossing Eden

Member
Oct 26, 2017
23,128
What I’m saying is, if you don’t get how a character is scared of her dark side family history and you’re trying to find a real life equivalent like being scared of having Republican grandparents, then you just don’t get Star Wars.
What i'm saying is, you're out of touch when it comes to why Rey Palpatine is one of the single most panned aspects of a movie, that is already filled to the brim with stuff that people panned. That's the issue, the person who doesn't get Star Wars is you. The need to put everything in a box is one of the singlem most panned aspects of the franchise. From Anakin building C3PO to Rey "you gonna be evil teeth because this guy that you've literally never met was bad, also, we're revealing this at the same time that we're revealing that your parents were good guys btw." Palpatine.
 

Drewton

Member
Oct 27, 2017
12,144
What i'm saying is, you're out of touch when it comes to why Rey Palpatine is one of the single most panned aspects of a movie that has a lot of panned aspects.
That’s not even replying to what I’m saying, lol

The way I see it, you found Rey to be a very relatable character and you were disappointed when Rey became a little less relatable for you. I understand that and that’s a separate issue. I’m just saying that you don’t seem to understand why in Star Wars it makes sense for people to have a legitimate fear of their family history.
 

Crossing Eden

Member
Oct 26, 2017
23,128
That’s not even replying to what I’m saying, lol

The way I see it, you found Rey to be a very relatable character and you were disappointed when Rey became a little less relatable for you. I understand that. I’m just saying that you don’t seem to understand why in Star Wars it makes sense for people to have a legitimate fear of their family history.
They literally reveal this during the same convo where Rey is told that her parents were protecting her, showing that not all of her family is bad, it doesn't hit as a surprise of something to be fearful of. The characters were not being literal in the OT when it came to lines like "He has too much of a father in him." Luke didn't take an interest in piloting because he had Vader's genes.
 

JB1981

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
11,842
I like that when Kylo touches the Vader helmet to connect with Rey they both see the things they fear the most. She sees what happened to her parents and he sees what he did to his father.
 

JB1981

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
11,842
Btw I think it’s pretty certain that the Palpatine on Exogol is not the same one that was on the DS2
 

Drewton

Member
Oct 27, 2017
12,144
Why not? He made Snoke didn’t he? And how else would he have survived DS2?
Snoke was a clone, but if Palpatine was a clone too then he wouldn’t be looking ancient and almost dead, in need of rejuvenation. The movie doesn’t specifically how explain how he’s back but I’m very sure he’s not a clone.
 

Crossing Eden

Member
Oct 26, 2017
23,128
Why not? He made Snoke didn’t he? And how else would he have survived DS2?
He straight up has damage from the last things he did on the DS2. Then again, this is the movie's fault for having a shit ton of exposition and then never explaining Palpatine specifically. There's

"leave the specifics up to the imagination as the answer might not be very satisfying"


and then there's "How the fuck is this dude alive?"

This makes no sense. Luke is a good-natured farmboy who was raised in a stable, loving environment. He’s a bit impulsive, but he knows right from wrong and doesn’t seem given to anger or violence.
Luke's dream was literally to join the army...he's a sheltered boy who was prone to impulsiveness and impatience as a result of being sheltered.
 

JB1981

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
11,842
Snoke was a clone, but if Palpatine was a clone too then he wouldn’t be looking ancient and almost dead, in need of rejuvenation. The movie doesn’t specifically how explain how he’s back but I’m very sure he’s not a clone.
He could just be extremely old and clinging to life. Like the original Palps or something.
 

The Silver

Member
Oct 28, 2017
5,810
Poor comic book writers gonna have to come up with some dumb shit to explain Sheev being alive and take all the heat for it. I'm sure JJ loved having the EU as a crutch to explain shit he knows is so incredibly stupid he doesn't dare put it in the movie.
 

JB1981

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
11,842
Then again, this is the movie's fault for having a shit ton of exposition and then never explaining Palpatine specifically. There's

"leave the specifics up to the imagination as the answer might not be very satisfying"
I don’t think they needed to and I actually think they made the right decision here. The dark side path to immortality should remain a mystery. It’s unnatural and any explanation probably would not have satisfied anyway.

They don’t explain the exact mechanism through which the Jedi become force ghosts, for example
 

Drewton

Member
Oct 27, 2017
12,144
Luke's upbringing is the reason why he is the way he is, not Vader genes.
TESB and ROTJ make it really obvious to the viewer that Luke could easily become like his father. Luke’s anger and struggle with the dark side don’t just come out of no where, it clearly comes in part from being Vader’s son. That’s just obvious. Obi-Wan and another X-wing pilot in a deleted scene even make a point about Luke being a great pilot like his father. This is a fairy tale, and I don’t mean that in a disparaging way at all.



 
Last edited:

Crossing Eden

Member
Oct 26, 2017
23,128
This makes no sense. Luke is a good-natured farmboy who was raised in a stable, loving environment. He’s a bit impulsive, but he knows right from wrong and doesn’t seem given to anger or violence.
I don’t think they needed to and I actually think they made the right decision here. The dark side path to immortality should remain a mystery. It’s unnatural and any explanation probably would not have satisfied anyway.

They don’t explain the exact mechanism through which the Jedi become force ghosts, for example
They did in CW and it was cool as fuck.

TESB and ROTJ make it really obvious to the viewer that Luke could easily become like his father. Luke’s anger and struggle with the dark side don’t just come out of no where, it clearly comes in part from being Vader’s son. That’s just obvious. Obi-Wan and another X-wing pilot in a deleted scene even make a point about Luke being a great pilot like his father. This is a fairy tale, and I don’t mean that in a disparaging way at all.



It doesn't come from nowhere, it comes from his upbringing as a sheltered kid who wanted to live a life of adventure and being thrust into a situation where he's in over his head, wants revenge for the double whammy of seeing his family and mentor killed, and wanting to beat someone much more powerful, wanting to take shortcuts when told to be patient. Boiling all of that down to "well it's because he's Vader's son" does a huge disservice to the character.
 

seleniumdrive

Member
May 26, 2018
242
So, I caught a second viewing today.

The pacing didn’t feel as breakneck, so that was nice.

Rey Palpatine still makes me die a little inside, as does Rey Skywalker. “Just Rey” would’ve been so much better. Daisy Ridley is great in this movie though, and she works so hard to make it all work and is so earnest as Rey.

The lack of Rose still sucks ass.

I still wish Finn got more to do than yelling after Rey and hinting at Force sensitivity that never really goes anywhere. Him leading an all-out stormtrooper rebellion would’ve been awesome.

Of the main trio, I feel like Poe comes out the most “unscathed”. Him grappling with leadership and buckling under pressure because of Leia’s passing, as well as getting advice from Lando — all nice moments.

Kylo/Ben is still the highlight of this movie (and the ST) imo. His redemption was the most emotional part of the film, especially the scene with Han, which still got me tearing up. And I still think it’s a huge mistake to have him die; him living and atoning would’ve been far more interesting and uplifting. As it is, the ending feels so weirdly rushed after he fades away, as if it’s afraid to linger on the sadness of his death. His lack of Force ghost at the end feels so off.

The visuals at the end with Palps at the throne and the big Sith stadium are honestly really cool.

But yeah, I’d be content to never sit through this movie again outside of a few scenes. It’s honestly just such a silly movie, and it hit me how much it’s not worth all the headaches and fighting that go on around SW as a whole. The fact that this is supposedly our big wrap up with these characters is still a bummer though, so I think I’ll watch TLJ later today to cheer myself up.
 

Deleted member 19218

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
4,323

Aadiboy

Member
Nov 4, 2017
1,946
Lucasfilm should have gotten the Hollywood Sequel Doctor to write the script for RoS:

"Everybody here gets to design their own Knight of Ren!"
 

Skiptastic

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
1,329
What conflict would you have written if bringing back Sheev wasn't on the table?
- Rey using the Jedi texts, Luke's guidance, and Leia's advice to create a new brand of Jedi
- Rey's brand of Jedi could be less dogmatic to rules (celibacy, no emotion, etc.) and more on
- Kylo and the Knights of Ren hunting Rey, but also Kylo using his Force Bond to protect her
- First Order in turmoil as Kylo Ren is unstable and the First Order struggles to establish control of the New Republic worlds after Luke's spark on Crait
- Finn, Poe, and Rose working to support the growing Resistance out of the ashes of the New Republic
Did a little fanfiction in the other thread:

First off:

- Do not do shit with Leia. She dies in between movies and the movie either starts with her funeral or the heroes being down because without Leia, they face a leadership vaccuum and none of our characters consider themselves strong enough to take up the mantle of Leia. I get that the third movie was supposed to be Leia's movie, but she died in between, so unfortunately nature came in between the plans. Taking that unused footage and splicing it up with CG only made things incredibly awkward and unnatural.

- No new big bad. We're working with the villains from the first two movies. No 'IT WAS ME ALL ALONG' reveal because that's incredibly stupid. Sheev is were he should be, dead in the smoldering ruins of the Second Death Star.

---------

So let's go:

Star Wars Ep. IX as told by CloudWolf:

- Rey's conflict comes from within. The words of Luke are in her mind, his will to destroy the Jedi, while clearly wrong, still reverberated. Clearly, Jedi of the past did something wrong. Maybe they need to be reformed and she, as the last Jedi and with the original Jedi texts in her possession, can maybe create a new, better order. Now, this could be controversial, but she actually takes a rather passive role in the film, trying to figure out what went wrong and how to improve on the past. In the end, of course, she will figure out what has to be done and goes to confront Kylo.

- Poe's storyline will be that of him assuming the leadership role and growing into it. In The Last Jedi he learned that jumping headfirst into battle isn't necessarily always the answer and this would be an extension of that arc. Him learning what it means to lead people, to have people look up to you and count on you. This is important as Poe realizes that in order for a First Order to never happen again, they need to think about how to create a new and lasting rulership system as the New Republic clearly didn't work.

- Finn's story will focus on him trying to take down the First Order from within. He realizes that he cannot have been the only one with the ability to shake free from his indoctrination and goes looking for ways to get more Stormtroopers out of the First Order's control. He and Rose go deep undercover within the First Order to be able to do this. A task that is even harder than it looks because...

- The First Order is in turmoil after the events of The Last Jedi. The death of Snoke and the clear disapproval of the upper command of Kylo's methods and temper has split the faction right in two and Hux and his loyalists are in open revolt against Kylo Ren. Meanwhile, Kylo Ren is being tortured by visions of Luke, who is the light side equivalent of what Palpatine was for Anakin. Luke feels that Kylo is still being tortured by the call to the light and now Snoke's dead, there is no 'master' making sure Kylo doesn't stray from the dark. He also uses the fact that a big part of The First Order rose up against him as leverage against Kylo: he's alone in the world and will never be the dark leader that Snoke or Darth Vader were (I would imagine Luke also uses the 'even Vader turned to the light side'-argument).

- The tales of the Battle of Crait and the fact that the First Order is weak and instable is the spark needed for various systems to break free of the First Order's grasp and join up with the Resistance. They're growing in numbers and preparing for the final assault.

- The end conflict will include the remnants of the Resistance + the free systems vs. the First Order under leadership of Hux. Two fleets gather for a final assault, with the biggest First Order army thus far. Despite the infighting, The First Order still remains incredibly strong and victory seems unlikely and costly. However, when Hux orders everyone to attack... nothing happens. The Stormtroopers instead turn on the leadership of the First Order. Finn and Rose did it, they turned off the mind control/were able to turn most Stormtroopers loyal to their cause. The few troops still loyal to the First Order, mainly the commanders, are rounded up. A few are killed as they try to fight against the 'betrayal' of the Stormtroopers, but mostly the final battle happens without much loss of life. Hux immediately surrenders as he's a little cowardly shit.

- Meanwhile somewhere else, away from the First Order (Ahch-To or some other planet, but for the thematic importance, let's go for Ahch-To), Kylo is looking for anwers to his doubt within himself. Luke has gotten to him, he doubts his role as a leader and as a disciple of the Dark Side. Rey meets him and challenges him. This leads to a short lightsaber duel, which Rey easily wins as Kylo is just done. He begs Rey to kill him, as he's a failure. She refuses. Rey talks with him about her new order, her new ideas. How she needs him on her side to make it work... the last two Force users.

Kylo silently nods and retires his identity as Kylo Ren. However, Ben isn't joining Rey. He says he has to much to atone for, in his quest for power he killed hundreds of people and ordered/was indirectly responsible for a billion more. He can't join Rey's new order, as he knows that he will be attracted by the Dark Side and he can't be free from his deeds as Kylo Ren. He says he will cut himself off from the Force and go into exile, to atone for his crimes. He says his farewell to Rey before leaving in his Tie Fighter.
I had written up a fan fiction but gave up because I suck at fleshing thinks out. But you have some of the exact same themes I had (Kylo vs. First Order leadership, Resistance getting support thanks to Crait, etc. ). Good work!
 
Oct 28, 2017
4,012
I just saw Rise of Skywalker tonight and really enjoyed it.

Whole sequel trilogy was excellent, with Last Jedi being my favorite of the bunch.

I'm afraid to read through this thread and sour myself on the film. I agree that the movie could've been slowed down and fleshed out a bit more but I enjoy what I saw overall.

I liked all the Star Wars movies fwiw, Attack of the Clones admittedly being the weakest overall but still a fun watch
 

Xpike

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,475
going back a few, i find the idea of a villian that cannot win with brute force alone as somehow "ridiculous" or "unfeasible" itself ridiculous
The Joker is one of the greatest villians of our time and he will never beat Batman in 1v1 situation
Kylo Ren is behind essentially the Third Reich and completely unhinged after having burned all bridges, while also having a special connection with our main protagonist. The fact that apparently there is no potential for a good villian there shows how low Star Wars, or indeed, cinema itself, has fallen as a whole if people cannot think beyond "dur but his power level low"
 

Bor Gullet

Member
Oct 27, 2017
7,819
going back a few, i find the idea of a villian that cannot win with brute force alone as somehow "ridiculous" or "unfeasible" itself ridiculous
The Joker is one of the greatest villians of our time and he will never beat Batman in 1v1 situation
Kylo Ren is behind essentially the Third Reich and completely unhinged after having burned all bridges, while also having a special connection with our main protagonist. The fact that apparently there is no potential for a good villian there shows how low Star Wars, or indeed, cinema itself, has fallen as a whole if people cannot think beyond "dur but his power level low"
Kylo Ren and Joker are not remotely comparable at all, but okay.
 

BossAttack

Member
Oct 27, 2017
19,281
TESB and ROTJ make it really obvious to the viewer that Luke could easily become like his father. Luke’s anger and struggle with the dark side don’t just come out of no where, it clearly comes in part from being Vader’s son. That’s just obvious. Obi-Wan and another X-wing pilot in a deleted scene even make a point about Luke being a great pilot like his father. This is a fairy tale, and I don’t mean that in a disparaging way at all.
My god, people really are bad at reading films.
 

Veelk

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,650
My god, people really are bad at reading films.
I don't know why certain people are so willing to buy into the 'evil genes' branch of narratives. It doesn't usually come up, but when it does, people talk about it as if it's a framework that makes sense to them.

"It makes sense for Dany to go crazy and murder everyone because of her Targaryen genes. Luke can go crazy and evil because of his father's Dark Side genes."

Like...why? Is it just because it's an easy explanation for the evil in the world?
 

Bor Gullet

Member
Oct 27, 2017
7,819
My god, people really are bad at reading films.
I don't know why certain people are so willing to buy into the 'evil genes' branch of narratives. It doesn't usually come up, but when it does, people talk about it as if it's a framework that makes sense to them.

"It makes sense for Dany to go crazy and murder everyone because of her Targaryen genes. Luke can go crazy and evil because of his father's Dark Side genes."

Like...why? Is it just because it's an easy explanation for the evil in the world?
To be fair, this is mentioned in ANH in regards to Luke.

"He has too much of his father in him."

"That's what I'm afraid of."


Even though at the time Vader wasn't meant to be Luke's father, retroactively that line is now meant as Owen fearing about Luke being too much like his father, Vader.
 
Oct 28, 2017
4,012
I didn't think it was as terrible as I was expecting just saw it for the first time tonight , while it did kind of feel like fan fiction in some way , it ended the sequel trilogy . It's not some abomination like I thought it would be based on word of mouth / reviews.

I know on this forum it's heresy for me to say this but I liked it more than endgame as a wrap up movie.

I agree, this was an enjoyable movie. Everyone hated Last Jedi when it came out also, but the narrative on that has changed since.

Oh well, cant win em all. Glad i had fun
 

Veelk

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,650
To be fair, this is mentioned in ANH in regards to Luke.

"He has too much of his father in him."

"That's what I'm afraid of."


Even though at the time Vader wasn't meant to be Luke's father, retroactively that line is now meant as Owen fearing about Luke being too much like his father, Vader.
Yeah, but that's just a thing you say whenever you notice similarities between parent and child, which can happen for a million different reasons from kids willfully imitating their kids to it just being subconciously learned behavior to just outright coincidence.

In ANH's case, think about why this is said. Luke is bored out of his mind shitless being a moisture farmer. Even if Uncle Owen was his actual father, it's likely he'd still be dreaming up ways to get out of this rut he is permanently living in. Then being told that his father was this cool, badass pilot that saw tons of action and was super talented and brave only amplified that because, fuck, who wouldn't want that kind of badass life when they're stuck in a boring one? And they're old dudes who know that war isn't fun and games. It's just the usual "I can't wait for a war so I can be badass and shit" bullshit being remarked on by two older guys that know what war actually is.


It's like basic understanding of human psychology goes out the window when it comes to these films.
 

Bor Gullet

Member
Oct 27, 2017
7,819
Yeah, but that's just a thing you say whenever you notice similarities between parent and child, which can happen for a million different reasons from kids willfully imitating their kids to it just being subconciously learned behavior to just outright coincidence.

In ANH's case, think about why this is said. Luke is bored out of his mind shitless being a moisture farmer. Even if Uncle Owen was his actual father, it's likely he'd still be dreaming up ways to get out of this rut he is permanently living in. Then being told that his father was this cool, badass pilot that saw tons of action and was super talented and brave only amplified that because, fuck, who wouldn't want that kind of badass life when they're stuck in a boring one? And they're old dudes who know that war isn't fun and games. It's just the usual "I can't wait for a war so I can be badass and shit" bullshit being remarked on by two older guys that know what war actually is.


It's like basic understanding of human psychology goes out the window when it comes to these films.
I'm sorry, but applying human psychology to SW is a bit silly.

It's not that deep. Star Wars is a fairy tale fantasy for children, and it's going to follow archetypes and cliches.
 

Veelk

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,650
I'm sorry, but applying human psychology to SW is a bit silly.

It's not that deep. Star Wars is a fairy tale fantasy for children, and it's going to follow archetypes and cliches.
I'm not talking about some deep, hard to grasp concepts, I'm talking about simple turns of phrase. Absolutely normal behavior that anyone can understand.

Obiwan says a simple, common phrase: "He has a lot of his father in him"

Fans: "OH MY GOD HE IS TALKING ABOUT THE EVIL GENE"
 

Bor Gullet

Member
Oct 27, 2017
7,819
I'm not talking about some deep, hard to grasp concepts, I'm talking about simple turns of phrase

Obiwan says a simple, common phrase: "He has a lot of his father in him"

Fans: "OH MY GOD HE IS TALKING ABOUT THE EVIL GENE"
He could very well be. It's the classic argument about nature vs nurture.

And it's Aunt Beru and Owen who said that, not Obi-Wan.
 

Drewton

Member
Oct 27, 2017
12,144
This is the same series in which Han says “There’s too much Vader in [Ben].” Who’s obviously never met his grandfather.

Rey having to worry about inheriting “the evil gene” is nothing new.
 

Ichthyosaurus

Banned
Dec 26, 2018
9,375
This is the same series in which Han says “There’s too much Vader in [Ben].” Who’s obviously never met his grandfather.

Rey having to worry about inheriting “the evil gene” is nothing new.
This is what Kylo looked like when Han knew t him as an adult. It had nothing to do with genes, but how he acts. Its not a secret Ben idolised Vader like an edge lord fanboy, either.

 
Status
Not open for further replies.