Star Wars: The Rise of Skywalker |OT| Revenge of a Sith (SPOILERS NOW OPEN)

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Veelk

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Oct 25, 2017
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I agree, I never disputed that.
Your saying you do not dispute being human and connecting to the story while saying it is pointless to apply real humanity (psychology, how people work and talk and think and act) to the story.

Look, the point I'm making is this - your way of describing the story fundamentally lessens it in my eyes. If Luke's surrogate parents are talking about their concern for their young boy who is trying to join a war when he has no idea what he's actually in for and relating that to how his father did the same and now he's gone, that's a believable human moment. That's good writing. If they're talking how he might just...arbitrarily become a murder fascist because his dad was one, then what are we even talking about? What am I supposed to take from that other than that genetics work differently in this place, then Luke is effectively less human as he's going to be making decisions that have no grounding in believable human behavior - he just might be a murder fascist just because it's in his genes, which is the same thing as saying "just because he is" in terms of narrative.

And this is all demonstrated how bad this writing is when it's made explicit and brought to the forefront: Palpatine telling Rey to kill him so she can become the new Empress and he can act through her, and she has no fucking reason to want this, but she have to pantomime how this is somehow an actual dilemma for her because she has the palpatine evil genes. Again, what is anyone supposed to take away from this? Nothing because this isn't anything that anyone actually deals with. There's no meaning to it. It has all the satisfaction of seeing rocks fall because the gravity pulls the rocks down to the center of the planet due to it's density. Okay, so what? It's just gravity. It's just genetics. It's just things happening without meaning. Meaning is what makes stories great, and meaning only happens through humanity.

So if you still don't get what I'm talking about after that, I genuinely don't know how to explain it to you. All I can say is what I said earlier - that if I saw things your way, I probably wouldn't be a star wars fan at all.
 

Bor Gullet

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Oct 27, 2017
7,818
Your saying you do not dispute being human and connecting to the story while saying it is pointless to apply real humanity
I'm getting tired of repeating this, but I have never once said it's pointless to apply real humanity, that's just putting words in my mouth. Part of the appeal of SW are it's characters.

I am saying it's pointless trying to apply real world rules to SW, because the world in which SW operates doesn't work the same way.
 

Veelk

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Oct 25, 2017
5,642
I'm getting tired of repeating this, but I have never once said it's pointless to apply real humanity, that's just putting words in my mouth. Part of the appeal of SW are it's characters.

I am saying it's pointless trying to apply real world rules to SW, because the world in which SW operates doesn't work the same way.
Does humanity exist outside the real world to you?
 

JB1981

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
11,842
Your saying you do not dispute being human and connecting to the story while saying it is pointless to apply real humanity (psychology, how people work and talk and think and act) to the story.

Look, the point I'm making is this - your way of describing the story fundamentally lessens it in my eyes. If Luke's surrogate parents are talking about their concern for their young boy who is trying to join a war when he has no idea what he's actually in for and relating that to how his father did the same and now he's gone, that's a believable human moment. That's good writing. If they're talking how he might just...arbitrarily become a murder fascist because his dad was one, then what are we even talking about? What am I supposed to take from that other than that genetics work differently in this place, then Luke is effectively less human as he's going to be making decisions that have no grounding in believable human behavior - he just might be a murder fascist just because it's in his genes, which is the same thing as saying "just because he is" in terms of narrative.

And this is all demonstrated how bad this writing is when it's made explicit and brought to the forefront: Palpatine telling Rey to kill him so she can become the new Empress and he can act through her, and she has no fucking reason to want this, but she have to pantomime how this is somehow an actual dilemma for her because she has the palpatine evil genes. Again, what is anyone supposed to take away from this? Nothing because this isn't anything that anyone actually deals with. There's no meaning to it. It has all the satisfaction of seeing rocks fall because the gravity pulls the rocks down to the center of the planet due to it's density. Okay, so what? It's just gravity. It's just genetics. It's just things happening without meaning. Meaning is what makes stories great, and meaning only happens through humanity.

So if you still don't get what I'm talking about after that, I genuinely don't know how to explain it to you. All I can say is what I said earlier - that if I saw things your way, I probably wouldn't be a star wars fan at all.
Palpatine bet on her striking him down in anger but he was wrong about what drives her. He then offers her the chance to end the war and save her friends by assuming control of the empire. If she did kill him it would have been out of compassion to save those she loves, not out of vengeance.

Movie is kinda all over the place but I thought where it landed on that last offer made sense and was in keeping with her character. I also liked that the moment where she’s alone and with no family by her side to help or save her is when Ben shows up. I found it touching
 

Bor Gullet

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Oct 27, 2017
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And this is all demonstrated how bad this writing is when it's made explicit and brought to the forefront: Palpatine telling Rey to kill him so she can become the new Empress and he can act through her, and she has no fucking reason to want this, but she have to pantomime how this is somehow an actual dilemma for her because she has the palpatine evil genes.
Rey wants to kill Palpatine to save her friends from dying, it had nothing to do with genes (actually, I wish the film played up the family aspect more).

Does humanity exist outside the real world to you?
Again you're going back to humanity.

You keep on trying to argue with me on something I've never disputed.
 

Veelk

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Oct 25, 2017
5,642
Palpatine bet on her striking him down in anger but he was wrong about what drives her. He then offers her the chance to end the war and save her friends by assuming control of the empire. If she did kill him it would have been out of compassion to save those she loves, not out of vengeance.

Movie is kinda all over the place but I thought where it landed on that last offer made sense and was in keeping with her character. I also liked that the moment where she’s alone and with no family by her side to help or save her is when Ben shows up to help her. I found it touching
Rey wants to kill Palpatine to save her friends from dying, it had nothing to do with genes (actually, I wish the film played it up more).
Palpatine: "If you don't kill me, I will kill your friends, so kill me, and then I will take you over, and then kill your friends anyway, hehehehe"

It's a stupid dilemma, again, but the whole "evil Rey" thing is played up with characters talking about how it's her destiny, it's in her blood, how Rey has been noticably more aggressive this movie, etc. I suspect the only reason they added this line in the first place is because they realized since Rey has no actual reason to want to help palpatine, so they hastely added this scene in to justify her striking Palps down.
 

Bor Gullet

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Oct 27, 2017
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Palpatine: "If you don't kill me, I will kill your friends, so kill me, and then I will take you over, and then kill your friends anyway, hehehehe"

It's a stupid dilemma, again, but the whole "evil Rey" thing is played up with characters talking about how it's her destiny, it's in her blood, how Rey has been noticably more aggressive this movie, etc. I suspect the only reason they added this line in the first place is because they realized since Rey has no actual reason to want to help palpatine, so they hastely added this scene in to justify her striking Palps down.
No, it's because JJ wants to ape ROTJ.

And Palpatine never said to Rey he'd kill her friends, he told her "only you have the power to save them." Which begs the question, would Rey still be in command if Palp's spirit passed into her?
 

Veelk

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Oct 25, 2017
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And Palpatine never said to Rey he'd kill her friends, he told her "only you have the power to save them." Which begs the question, would Rey still be in command if Palp's spirit passed into her?
....


Yeah


Yeah it does.


it really fucking does, doesn't it.


I wonder why Palpatine, whose sole goal in life is exerting control over the universe, would want to pass into her if he didn't control her


I really, really wonder why
 

JB1981

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
11,842
I suspect the only reason they added this line in the first place is because they realized since Rey has no actual reason to want to help palpatine, so they hastely added this scene in to justify her striking Palps down.
I actually agree that it is possible. However I liked the it’s like poetry it rhymes aspect of it somewhat mirroring Anakin’s dilemma. “Only you have the power to save them.” Although Anakin’s internal conflict/dilemma was built up across several movies.
 

Fj0823

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Oct 25, 2017
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Like the visuals are great and it’s ultimate fan service, it’s easy to read that as undermining Rey’s agency. It’s not her who defeated Palpatine, it’s the force blast of all the dead men jedi
She lost her agency the second Ren uttered the words "You have his power" Might as well give the ultimate Star Wars fanservice rule of cool scene
 
Oct 27, 2017
3,214
No, it's because JJ wants to ape ROTJ.

And Palpatine never said to Rey he'd kill her friends, he told her "only you have the power to save them." Which begs the question, would Rey still be in command if Palp's spirit passed into her?
He says that they would become one. Usually in fantasy media that means that they would literally fuse, so both of their minds, their beliefs and perspectives, would be combined into one mind. So the answer is sorta both sorta neither. But the sith do that because it’s better than just straight up dying and the closest thing to immortality they’ve figured out.

Of course this is all just assumption based on cliches.
 

John Harker

Knows things...
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Oct 27, 2017
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Santa Destroy
This is literally what happens
They encourage her to get up.
Visually it does not indicate force ghosts blasting energy. They support her versus “do it” for her.

It’s vague enough that it works, you can read this as a pat on the back and Rey finding the strength within.

Visually it’s way less impactful, and there’s many Jedi I would have liked to see, but to keep the focus on Rey I understand why they likely cut it
 

JB1981

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
11,842
They encourage her to get up.
Visually it does not indicate force ghosts blasting energy. They support her versus “do it” for her.

It’s vague enough that it works, you can read this as a pat on the back and Rey finding the strength within.

Visually it’s way less impactful, and there’s many Jedi I would have liked to see, but to keep the focus on Rey I understand why they likely cut it
It was All the Sith against All the Jedi. The Jedi were working through Rey, same as the Sith through Palpatine. At least that’s how I took it.
 

CesareNorrez

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Oct 25, 2017
2,561
Just got back from watching it my third and final time (got that last AMC IMAX poster), and I noticed something I haven't seen discussed but I'm sure has been. Luke's right arm is completely obscure and never used. He catches the saber and uses the force to bring up the X-Wing with his left hand. Is the implication he didn't have his right hand restored? That's a bizarre choice considering both versions of Anakin's Force Ghost have all his limbs (and even hair) restored.
 

Drewton

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Oct 27, 2017
12,138
Just got back from watching it my third a final time (got that last AMC IMAX poster), and I noticed something I haven't seen discussed but I'm sure has been. Luke's right arm is completely obscure and never used. He catches the saber and uses the force to bring up the X-Wing with his left hand. Is the implication he didn't have his right hand restored? That's a bizarre choice considering both versions of Anakin's Force Ghost have all his limbs (and even hair) restored.
I didn’t notice myself but I was wondering if he had his right hand back
 

CesareNorrez

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Oct 25, 2017
2,561
I didn’t notice myself but I was wondering if he had his right hand back
When he sits down next to Rey on the shore, his cloak is draped over his right arm and while you can see an end point, impossible to tell if there is a hand or fingers. It adds another stilted layer to that scene. Hamill is left-handed so, I guess it's how Luke would use his hand anyway, but there is no sign of that right hand at all.
 

CesareNorrez

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Oct 25, 2017
2,561
Is this confirmed? I'm not sure if we see Anakin's hands, and we obviously don't see his legs since he's wearing a robe (and ghosts float).
Well, all the scarring and burned away hair is restored on either Anakin Ghost. Strange choice to give him a healed head but not the rest of the body.

I've been saying for years that Anakin should have been doing the finger guns when he came back as a ghost. Then we'd know!
 

MisterHero

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Oct 25, 2017
3,322
Just got back from watching it my third and final time (got that last AMC IMAX poster), and I noticed something I haven't seen discussed but I'm sure has been. Luke's right arm is completely obscure and never used. He catches the saber and uses the force to bring up the X-Wing with his left hand. Is the implication he didn't have his right hand restored? That's a bizarre choice considering both versions of Anakin's Force Ghost have all his limbs (and even hair) restored.
There's a promo shot of him and R2 and his hand is gloved, but a quick google says that it was shopped by whoever made the original promo image.
 

DiipuSurotu

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Oct 25, 2017
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Well, all the scarring and burned away hair is restored on either Anakin Ghost. Strange choice to give him a healed head but not the rest of the body.
Well, canonically the guy that Obi-Wan fought on Mustafar was already Vader, not Anakin. Palpatine made Anakin a Sith and gave him the name Darth Vader BEFORE the fight on Mustafar.

Therefore, if we follow the logic that Force ghosts don't recover their limbs, Anakin's ghost should look like how Anakin was before that scene, with only his right forearm missing (cut by Darth Tyranus in Episode II).
 

Fisty

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Oct 25, 2017
6,970
Finally saw it, the cherry on the JJ's shit sundae was that apparently Ashoka died off-screen. Trash
 

DiipuSurotu

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Oct 25, 2017
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France
Pretty accurate. I do wonder what the trilogy would've turned out like if either had handled all three movies but we're never actually going to know.

It was just a risky experiment by Disney to try to cut down on the interval between movies that, quite frankly, totally failed and just left us with a contradictory mess of a trilogy.
Carrie's death would have affected the quality of Episode IX no matter what
 
Oct 27, 2017
3,214
Implying there was actually a conflict over it and not just an intended passing of hands.

Better, someone make a meme of Rey handing Luke his lightsaber. Rey is Rian, Luke is JJ and the lightsaber is TLJs plotline.

Of course people will say but that’s what Rian did, and they can shut the fuck up cause they’re objectively wrong.
 
Oct 28, 2017
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The arguments in this thread are getting so abstract lmao. Like, I enjoyed the movie, but it becomes clear a movie failed when you have to start arguing all these odd vantage points just to defend a film and its writing.
 

KeRaSh

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Oct 26, 2017
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I enjoyed the movie for what it was and I liked the ending. I thought it was a nice sendoff.
All the ships coming in to help the rebels was cheesy but that's what Star Wars is to me.

My wife hated the movie, though. According to her, Rey was way too much of a Mary Sue.
I kinda thought the Force Healing was a little too much but I liked Rey so I shrugged it off.

Bonus question my wife asked me after watching the movie:

Wife: "Did you expect Rey to be a Sith?"
Me: "Sith? What?"
Wife: "Because Palpatine was her Grandfather?"
Me: "That's... not how it works. Being a Sith is not hereditary...
Wife: "Oh... Still hated it."

😅
 

Yukari

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Mar 28, 2018
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CloudWolf

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Oct 26, 2017
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I kinda want somebody to interview Abrams and Terrio about what the 'loose threads' from the first six movies are that they apparently wanted to solve with this movie.

In the months before the movie Abrams kept saying how the movie will feel like a natural end, yet all the links to the first six movies are incredibly tacked on.

Not that I expect an actual answer, since the whole Skywalker Saga nonsense was clearly a poorly thought out marketing trick, but it would be interesting to see if Abrams can at least try to explain what the hell he meant.
 
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