Star Wars: The Rise of Skywalker |OT| Revenge of a Sith (SPOILERS NOW OPEN)

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MisterHero

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Oct 25, 2017
3,331
The last of Skywalkers IS evil. He does nothing to redeem himself in this movie except for reacting to "Ben!".

Also Ben is supposed to be good just because he's Leia's son? What kind of bullshit is that? All criminals have mothers, some of them probably even good mothers.
"No one is born and/or truly evil" would be a great optimistic message [edit: in a fantasy story], regardless of their Dragon Ball power levels.

It's not compatible with Star Wars' Jedi/Sith toy marketing though.
 

KingSnake

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,468
"No one is born and/or truly evil" would be a great optimistic message [edit: in a fantasy story], regardless of their Dragon Ball power levels.

It's not compatible with Star Wars' Jedi/Sith toy marketing though.
"No one is born and/or truly evil" is a nice message indeed. But we were shown during 3 movies the character being truly evil, starting with his introduction killing an old man and ordering the massacre of an entire village. We're not shown any good part of him. Yes, he cares for Rey at some level, but that doesn't make him any less evil in the big picture. At the galaxy level he's still a horrible person after his death.
 
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Crossing Eden

Member
Oct 26, 2017
23,162
The first six movies were all about Palpatine/the Sith vs the Skywalkers and the Jedi, I understand if not everyone agrees but for me it absolutely makes sense, if you’re going to do a sequel trilogy at all that’s meant to continue and end that same story, to say that’s the still central conflict of the Skywalker saga.
The ST should've specifically been about what Palpatine's actions left behind, aka, the FO, not literal Palpatine showing up fine and dandy.
 

MisterHero

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,331
"No one is born and/or truly evil" is a nice message indeed. But we were shown during 3 movies the character being truly evil, starting with his introduction killing an old man and ordering the massacre of an entire village. We're not shown any good part of him. Yes, he cares for Rey at some level, but that doesn't make him any less evil in the big picture. At the galaxy level he's still a horrible person after his death.
If Ben is irredeemably evil, it's because he was written that way. In a fantasy story, they have the room to challenge the notion of someone being evil forever.

They don't show Ben challenging the voices he's been apparently heard all his life. He doesn't talk to the real Anakin, Luke doesn't try to guide him after their lsst confrontation.

Even after massive manipulation, he wasn't written to be exiled or in prison facing the weight of the galaxy. The audience is like, "The son of Han Solo and Princess Leia has to die!", which is probably the least favorable ending of the Skywalker line. Even if logically sound, it wasn't ever going to be popular with classic or new fans.

They could've underlined that lesson with the FO Stormtroopers who were also brainwashed, throughout the trilogy. Try punishing dozens, possibly hundreds of former Stormtroopers trained against their will. Ben was just Sheev's crown jewel in that whole plot.

The idea and execution were both sloppy.
 

John Harker

Knows things...
Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,340
Santa Destroy
Nice, good for everyone involved.
Still hope it's not the last we see if these characters.

Star Wars has made many careers and household names from some actors.
And destroyed the careers of others.

Wonder how this trilogy will do for this cast?
 

Serpens007

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Oct 31, 2017
3,585
The leaked script seems hard to pull off, but at least has far more creative and interesting ideas to close the Saga.
 

JB1981

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
11,842
Nice, good for everyone involved.
Still hope it's not the last we see if these characters.

Star Wars has made many careers and household names from some actors.
And destroyed the careers of others.

Wonder how this trilogy will do for this cast?
I want more movies with them too. This trilogy didn’t feel like a proper ending for them
 

CrichtonKicks

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,868
Duel of the Fates is perhaps the most fanfic-y title I’ve ever heard.
It's no more fanfic-y than "Revenge of the Sith".

"No one is born and/or truly evil" is a nice message indeed. But we were shown during 3 movies the character being truly evil, starting with his introduction killing an old man and ordering the massacre of an entire village. We're not shown any good part of him. Yes, he cares for Rey at some level, but that doesn't make him any less evil in the big picture. At the galaxy level he's still a horrible person after his death.
It's so weird when people say that failing to redeem Kylo would have "ruined Ben's character". What character? The audience never meets Ben Solo. We don't know much about him. What we do know is that he intentionally sought out a destructive path. Kylo's redemption seems like a betrayal to me because Ben Solo sought out the dark side, was given numerous opportunities to step away from it, and chose the dark every single damn time.
 

JB1981

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
11,842
Man the Skywalkers are dead and the last jedi, a Palpatine, ended the Sith for good and according to John Williams was gonna take up residence at the Lars homestead, the childhood home of Luke Skywalker.

The Palpatine Saga

Who the fuck thought this was a good idea
 

Vidiot

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,663
Palpatine got to rule for decades, killed most of the Jedi, and lived to a ripe old age. Even if he did actually meet his end here finally, he still won.
 

Mulciber

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Aug 22, 2018
5,066
She's a Youtuber who came to prominence around the leadup to Episode 8. I'm a big fan; she's soft-spoken with a wonderful deadpan sense of humour, which is a nice change from the usual crop of angry manchild pop culture Youtubers.
Yeah, she's really great. I love that video she made where she reads the *not* Kylo Ren fan fiction that was published on Amazon.
 

Drewton

Member
Oct 27, 2017
12,292
Jason Ward has an article up comparing the final draft of Colin's version with TROS.


Some interesting parts:
  • Rey has designed her own lightsaber, but this version has already been completed; a double-sided saber that works like a boomerang.
  • Rey confides in Finn about what’s going on with her in regards to her connection with the Dark Side.
  • Kylo can feel that his mother passed — but this is an obvious beat. Leia has to die and Kylo would obviously feel it in the Force.
  • Kylo finds the Sith Holocron, which contains all the secrets of the Sith, but it reflects Kylo because he still has light in him. He must destroy Rey so he can become truly Dark. This differs from the J.J. and Terrio screenplay where he needs to convince Rey to join him.
  • Kylo gets a new, more savage mask; closer to Vader.
  • Rey finds the Knights of Ren with the Force and Poe is hit in the arm. REY SHOOTS PURPLE LIGHTNING FROM HER FINGERTIPS, KILLING ONE OF THE KNIGHTS OF REN. Poe and Chewie are taken aback by this.
  • Rey makes Poe leave with Chewie to go help the Resistance (Finn and Rose). She kisses him to make him do this.
  • Rey needs to stay to face Kylo and end this. She now goes full Jedi with the robe. She talks to force Luke about her past. Who she really is — Luke says she already knows as she seethes with anger. He explains who the Knights of Ren are, former students of his and that Kylo wanted to be Rey’s teacher. Rey is mad because Kylo lied to her.
  • Luke says that if she gives in to her anger, no one will survive.
  • Rey has subliminal flashbacks of her life, which are I believe are in the JJ and Terrio’s screenplay.
  • In the Osis woods, Rey makes her way to the spire when she gets a flashback of her parents leaving her and telling her they will come back. This makes her angry — she slices a tree in half.
  • Near the third act, Kylo has a talk with his dead father about his transformation and who he is going to be.
  • Rose is able to escape the Capital before she crashes into the sun.
  • Connix is going to retreat as they are taking heavy fire, but they are saved by Lando and a thousand ships. He came back!
  • As he’s dying Ren says that Rey’s name is Solana. Rey Solana. Ren dies.
  • When Ren dies in front of Rey, they share a look that could be perceived as love.
  • Rey glows and wondered if she’s dead, but Yoda tells her there is no death with Jedi.
 
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JB1981

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
11,842
Jason Ward has an article up comparing the final draft of Colin's version with TROS.


Some interesting parts:
  • Rey has designed her own lightsaber, but this version has already been completed; a double-sided saber that works like a boomerang.
  • Rey confides in Finn about what’s going on with her in regards to her connection with the Dark Side.
  • Kylo can feel that his mother passed — but this is an obvious beat. Leia has to die and Kylo would obviously feel it in the Force.
  • Kylo finds the Sith Holocron, which contains all the secrets of the Sith, but it reflects Kylo because he still has light in him. He must destroy Rey so he can become truly Dark. This differs from the J.J. and Terrio screenplay where he needs to convince Rey to join him.
  • Kylo wears a new mask that’s more savage than his previous mask, but it’s not put-together from broken pieces, it’s just a raw design.
  • Rey shoots purple lightning from her fingertips, killing one of the Knights of Ren. In J.J. and Terrio’s screenplay, Rey destroys the troop transport.
  • Luke says she already knows as she seethes with anger. He explains who the Knights of Ren are, former students of his and that Kylo wanted to be Rey’s teacher.
  • Luke says that if she gives in to her anger, no one will survive.
  • Rey has subliminal flashbacks of her life, which are I believe are in the JJ and Terrio’s screenplay.
  • Near the third act, Kylo has a talk with his dead father about his transformation and who he is going to be.
Kylo being involved in her backstory is so much fucking better than Rey Palpatine.
 

Drewton

Member
Oct 27, 2017
12,292
Fuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu
Honestly I'm glad it wasn't the case. If they were Luke's students, they definitely would have needed more development and there wasn't enough time for that in one movie, and then you have the issue of whether Luke's former students should be redeemed too. It just unnecessarily complicates things.
 

MisterHero

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,331
I'm really not a fan of Ben getting eternal judgement but everything sounds a lot less rough.

I want a return to Coruscant more than a 2nd and 3rd desert planet.

I love the way Hux dies.
 

DiipuSurotu

Member
Oct 25, 2017
18,100
France
Honestly I'm glad it wasn't the case. If they were Luke's students, they definitely would have needed more development and there wasn't enough time for that in one movie, and then you have the issue of whether Luke's former students should be redeemed too. It just unnecessarily complicates things.
It would still have been better than being Kylo Ren's comrades yet getting NO development at all in TROS.

And the issue of their redemption wouldn't necessarily take a lot of time. Ben was the strongest student so it makes sense that these other students would be less mentally strong and more easily tempted.
 

Drewton

Member
Oct 27, 2017
12,292
"Kylo is on the verge of death when a group of wommels save him and take him to their cave; he’s moved by their selflessness"

"Rey makes Poe leave with Chewie to go help the Resistance (Finn and Rose). She kisses him to make him do this."

"Bossk is at a den when he sees the projection and wants to join."

What

"Rey glows and wondered if she’s dead, but Yoda tells her there is no death with Jedi."

Did Rey die too in this script?
 
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Drewton

Member
Oct 27, 2017
12,292

I don’t remember the movie enough, is this actually extended? I wonder if it’s a sign of the rumoured Disney+ extended cut.
 

CrichtonKicks

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,868
Honestly I'm glad it wasn't the case. If they were Luke's students, they definitely would have needed more development and there wasn't enough time for that in one movie, and then you have the issue of whether Luke's former students should be redeemed too. It just unnecessarily complicates things.
That's why I don't care for "Star Wars must always have redemption"! Why is mandated that Ben must be redeemed but we aren't saying that about Palpatine, Maul, Snoke, and Dooku? Are only force users eligible for this brand of redemption?

Ren was such a great villain in TFA and TLJ precisely because he was a character so different from what we typically see- has a warm and loving family yet chooses to pursue darkness of his own free will. He is given numerous off ramps (even after committing patricide) and actively decides against redemption every time. That's an interesting take and an interesting character.

TROS doesn't really lay out any reason that he turned back *this* time instead of all of the other times. The heart-to-heart with Ford is wonderfully performed but it relies so much on direct quotes of their scene in TFA that it doesn't feel earned that he turns back now when didn't turn then. It's more like he turned now because the end of the movie was approaching.
 

BossAttack

Member
Oct 27, 2017
19,332
In my view, Kylo’s redemption arc starts at the end of TLJ when Luke shows him how foolish and useless his anger is, and how truly alone it’s made him. It’s Luke’s final lesson to Ben.


And then in TROS, it’s driven by the return of the Emperor which sweeps the rug under his feet and really makes him realize how much of his life has been a lie. Snoke, his grandfather speaking to him. He has a kind of rebirth when Rey stabs him and stops him from dying, and then is finally able to find forgiveness when Leia shows him the memory of his father. Fighting and defeating the Knights of Ren and facing Palpatine is him finally confronting and turning his back on all the manipulation. He dies giving his life for the one person left that he loves. It works for me.

A lot of people misinterpret the ending of TLJ as cementing Ben being evil, when really it’s the opposite. He starts the movie kneeling to Snoke. Then he achieves his major goals to gain power - Luke is dead, he kills Snoke, and he’s the Supreme Leader. And yet he ends the movie without any satisfaction. Kneeling. The same way he began.

So yes, Colin’s version would have been many times worse.
This is just pure nonsense. Colin's script is 100x better since it commits to what TLJ sets up. Bendemption is not impossible after TLJ, but it shatters once and for all the idea that Ben is "tragic." He's not Anakin Skywalker. His fall to the Dark Side was not a tragedy. It's what he wanted. As he states, "I am a monster." The end of TLJ shows that when the chips are down, he willingly chooses power over acceptance and love. Snoke is dead (the person who supposedly manipulated him), Rey is willing to forgive and accept him, his mother wants him back, yet he still chooses to remain Kylo Ren because that's who he really is.

TROS' "redemption" is hollow because at no point does Ben Solo accept that his previous actions were wrong, at no point does he come to understand that his viewpoint was incorrect. He's stabbed by Rey, healed, and then turns back into "good ol' Ben Solo." Vader, in contrast, is able to reflect and accept that he was wrong in ROTJ before dying and redeeming himself. He straight up tells Luke, "you were right about me." In his last moments he understood that all his hatred and pain gained him nothing and nearly cost him the one thing that he started down the path to save in the first place, his family. By reflecting and accepting on his past actions and why they are wrong, he is able to be redeemed.

There is no such reflection and acceptance with Kylo Ren. His father appearing to forgive him is not sufficient given Ben's crimes, it does not correlate with his downfall. To reiterate, Vader fell to the Dark Side primarily in an attempt to save his family. At the end, he was so consumed by the Dark Side he nearly destroyed his family. He's redeemed by remembering why he started down this path to begin with and saves his son, recognizing that the Dark Side only ever led to destruction and pain. Kylo Ren did not fall to the Dark Side because he wanted to save his family or because Han Solo was a bad father. The films show that he willingly chose this path, seduced purely by its power. This is why Han Solo was unsuccessful in convincing him to back down in TFA, Ren wanted power more than family, love, or acceptance.

In order for him to be redeemed he needed to understand what the sole pursuit of power rewards you with. This is why Treverrow's script about him visiting a Sith Tomb and Luke's Ghost reminding him that this is where his path will lead him to is on point. Kylo has to confront why his pursuit of power was wrong, he needs to understand what it ultimately leads to and why it's not something he should desire. Shit, Rebels does this so easily with the character of Agent Kallus. He starts the series as a perfect Imperial Agent and one to be feared. Eventually we see he has a certain sense of honor and believes in the ideals of the Empire, he doesn't question them. The crucial turning point comes when he and Zeb get stuck on a planet together and end up working together to survive. In the end, they are both saved and return to their respective sides. However, Zeb is returned to greeting friends who embrace him and exclaim how worried they were about him. Kallus returns to the cold empire and a solitary room. No one cares what he's been though. No one embraces him upon return. No one asks him how he's doing. He's just another disposable cog in the Imperial Machine. And, this is what leads to his turn to the Rebel Alliance.

Kylo Ren could have used a similar sort of poignant moment, a reflecting point as he achieves complete mastery of the galaxy only to find he is no more happy than when he was a pupil under Luke. Such a moment could be contrasted with Rey, "the girl from nowhere" whom everyone loves and embraces, even his own mother. Hell, keep the stupid "Rey is a Palpatine" twist in and such a moment could still work as it would show Ren that even though her ancestor is the literal personification of evil, none of her friends care and still embrace and love her, including Leia and Han. Examining and reflecting upon such a moment could lead to Ben finally turning from the Dark.

OR you could have Force Ghost/Memory Han show up to forgive Ren for murdering him and then Kylo immediately switched to the Light...
 
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CrichtonKicks

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,868
This is just pure nonsense. Colin's script is 100x better since it commits to what TLJ sets up. Bendemption is not impossible after TLJ, but it shatters once and for all the idea that Ben is "tragic." He's not Anakin Skywalker. His fall to the Dark Side was not a tragedy. It's what he wanted. As he states, "I am a monster." The end of TLJ shows that when the chips are down, he willingly chooses power over acceptance and love. Snoke is dead (the person who supposedly manipulated him), Rey is willing to forgive and accept him, his mother wants him back, yet he still chooses to remain Kylo Ren because that's who he really is.

TROS' "redemption" is hollow because at no point does Ben Solo accept that his previous actions were wrong, at no point does he come to understand that his viewpoint was incorrect. He's stabbed by Rey, healed, and then turns back into "good ol' Ben Solo." Vader, in contrast, is able to reflect and accept that he was wrong in ROTJ before dying and redeeming himself. He straight up tells Luke, "you were right about me." In his last moments he understood that all his hatred and pain gained him nothing and nearly cost him the one thing that he started down the path to save in the first place, his family. By reflecting and accepting on his past actions and why they are wrong, he is able to be redeemed.

There is no such reflection and acceptance with Kylo Ren. His father appearing to forgive him is not sufficient given Ben's crimes, it does not correlate with his downfall. To reiterate, Vader fell to the Dark Side primarily in an attempt to save his family. At the end, he was so consumed by the Dark Side he nearly destroyed his family. He's redeemed by remembering why he started down this path to begin with and saves his son, recognizing that the Dark Side only ever led to destruction and pain. Kylo Ren did not fall to the Dark Side because he wanted to save his family or because Han Solo was a bad father. The films show that he willingly chose this path, seduced purely by its power. This is why Han Solo was unsuccessful in convincing him to back down in TFA, Ren wanted power more than family, love, or acceptance.

In order for him to be redeemed he needed to understand what the sole pursuit of power rewards you with. This is why Treverrow's script about him visiting a Sith Tomb and Luke's Ghost reminding him that this is where his path will lead him to is on point. Kylo has to confront why his pursuit of power was wrong, he needs to understand what it ultimately leads to and why it's not something he should desire. Shit, Rebels does this so easily with the character of Agent Kallus. He starts the series as a perfect Imperial Agent and one to be feared. Eventually we see he has a certain sense of honor and believes in the ideals of the Empire, he doesn't question them. The crucial turning point comes when he and Zeb get stuck on a planet together and end up working together to survive. In e end, they are both saved and return to their respective sides. However, Zeb is returned to greeting friends who embrace him and exclaim how worried they were about him. Kallus returns to the cold empire and a solitary room. No one cares what he's been though. No one embraces him upon return. No one asks him how he's doing. He's just another disposable cog in the Imperial Machine. And, this is what leads to his turn to the Rebel Alliance.

Kylo Ren could have used a similar sort of poignant moment, a reflecting point as he achieves complete mastery of the galaxy only to find he is no more happy than when he was a pupil under Luke. Such a moment could be contrasted with Rey, "the girl from nowhere" whom everyone loves and embraces, even his own mother. Hell, keep the stupid "Rey is a Palpatine" twist in and such a moment could still work as it would show Ren that even though her ancestor is the literal personification of evil, none of her friends care and still embrace and love her, including Leia and Han. Examining and reflecting upon such a moment could lead to Ben finally turning from the Dark.

OR you could have Force Ghost/Memory Han show up to forgive Ren for murdering him and then Kylo immediately switched to the Light...
 
Oct 27, 2017
2,215
The awkward editing of Kylo's turn and the lack of groundwork laid up to that point in the film makes the motivation of his redemption unclear and ultimately feels hollow. It's a stark contrast with how Vader's turn is conveyed and that was with a masked character and no dialogue.
 

KingSnake

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,468
It's so weird when people say that failing to redeem Kylo would have "ruined Ben's character". What character? The audience never meets Ben Solo. We don't know much about him. What we do know is that he intentionally sought out a destructive path. Kylo's redemption seems like a betrayal to me because Ben Solo sought out the dark side, was given numerous opportunities to step away from it, and chose the dark every single damn time.
Exactly. "Ben and Kylo are different." Where? We don't even get to see what Ben thinks about anything because he's can't say anything now. It's all based on the idea that he's from a good family and since he loves Rey he must be good now. Which is very strange, since most of the time his "love" is expressed in an abusive manner.
 

RadCatDad

Member
Feb 27, 2019
1,698
This is just pure nonsense. Colin's script is 100x better since it commits to what TLJ sets up. Bendemption is not impossible after TLJ, but it shatters once and for all the idea that Ben is "tragic." He's not Anakin Skywalker. His fall to the Dark Side was not a tragedy. It's what he wanted. As he states, "I am a monster." The end of TLJ shows that when the chips are down, he willingly chooses power over acceptance and love. Snoke is dead (the person who supposedly manipulated him), Rey is willing to forgive and accept him, his mother wants him back, yet he still chooses to remain Kylo Ren because that's who he really is.

TROS' "redemption" is hollow because at no point does Ben Solo accept that his previous actions were wrong, at no point does he come to understand that his viewpoint was incorrect. He's stabbed by Rey, healed, and then turns back into "good ol' Ben Solo." Vader, in contrast, is able to reflect and accept that he was wrong in ROTJ before dying and redeeming himself. He straight up tells Luke, "you were right about me." In his last moments he understood that all his hatred and pain gained him nothing and nearly cost him the one thing that he started down the path to save in the first place, his family. By reflecting and accepting on his past actions and why they are wrong, he is able to be redeemed.

There is no such reflection and acceptance with Kylo Ren. His father appearing to forgive him is not sufficient given Ben's crimes, it does not correlate with his downfall. To reiterate, Vader fell to the Dark Side primarily in an attempt to save his family. At the end, he was so consumed by the Dark Side he nearly destroyed his family. He's redeemed by remembering why he started down this path to begin with and saves his son, recognizing that the Dark Side only ever led to destruction and pain. Kylo Ren did not fall to the Dark Side because he wanted to save his family or because Han Solo was a bad father. The films show that he willingly chose this path, seduced purely by its power. This is why Han Solo was unsuccessful in convincing him to back down in TFA, Ren wanted power more than family, love, or acceptance.

In order for him to be redeemed he needed to understand what the sole pursuit of power rewards you with. This is why Treverrow's script about him visiting a Sith Tomb and Luke's Ghost reminding him that this is where his path will lead him to is on point. Kylo has to confront why his pursuit of power was wrong, he needs to understand what it ultimately leads to and why it's not something he should desire. Shit, Rebels does this so easily with the character of Agent Kallus. He starts the series as a perfect Imperial Agent and one to be feared. Eventually we see he has a certain sense of honor and believes in the ideals of the Empire, he doesn't question them. The crucial turning point comes when he and Zeb get stuck on a planet together and end up working together to survive. In the end, they are both saved and return to their respective sides. However, Zeb is returned to greeting friends who embrace him and exclaim how worried they were about him. Kallus returns to the cold empire and a solitary room. No one cares what he's been though. No one embraces him upon return. No one asks him how he's doing. He's just another disposable cog in the Imperial Machine. And, this is what leads to his turn to the Rebel Alliance.

Kylo Ren could have used a similar sort of poignant moment, a reflecting point as he achieves complete mastery of the galaxy only to find he is no more happy than when he was a pupil under Luke. Such a moment could be contrasted with Rey, "the girl from nowhere" whom everyone loves and embraces, even his own mother. Hell, keep the stupid "Rey is a Palpatine" twist in and such a moment could still work as it would show Ren that even though her ancestor is the literal personification of evil, none of her friends care and still embrace and love her, including Leia and Han. Examining and reflecting upon such a moment could lead to Ben finally turning from the Dark.

OR you could have Force Ghost/Memory Han show up to forgive Ren for murdering him and then Kylo immediately switched to the Light...
oh damn this is a good post
 

CrichtonKicks

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,868
The awkward editing of Kylo's turn and the lack of groundwork laid up to that point in the film makes the motivation of his redemption unclear and ultimately feels hollow. It's a stark contrast with how Vader's turn is conveyed and that was with a masked character and no dialogue.
Yep. Vader's demeanor after the confrontation in Cloud City changed. Even in the final moments of Empire where he is so focused on Luke that he doesn't reprimand Piett for letting them get away.

And Vader throughout RotJ is far less menacing than he is in ANH and Empire. You can tell he's off his game since coming face to face with his son.
 

KingSnake

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,468
This is just pure nonsense. Colin's script is 100x better since it commits to what TLJ sets up. Bendemption is not impossible after TLJ, but it shatters once and for all the idea that Ben is "tragic." He's not Anakin Skywalker. His fall to the Dark Side was not a tragedy. It's what he wanted. As he states, "I am a monster." The end of TLJ shows that when the chips are down, he willingly chooses power over acceptance and love. Snoke is dead (the person who supposedly manipulated him), Rey is willing to forgive and accept him, his mother wants him back, yet he still chooses to remain Kylo Ren because that's who he really is.

TROS' "redemption" is hollow because at no point does Ben Solo accept that his previous actions were wrong, at no point does he come to understand that his viewpoint was incorrect. He's stabbed by Rey, healed, and then turns back into "good ol' Ben Solo." Vader, in contrast, is able to reflect and accept that he was wrong in ROTJ before dying and redeeming himself. He straight up tells Luke, "you were right about me." In his last moments he understood that all his hatred and pain gained him nothing and nearly cost him the one thing that he started down the path to save in the first place, his family. By reflecting and accepting on his past actions and why they are wrong, he is able to be redeemed.

There is no such reflection and acceptance with Kylo Ren. His father appearing to forgive him is not sufficient given Ben's crimes, it does not correlate with his downfall. To reiterate, Vader fell to the Dark Side primarily in an attempt to save his family. At the end, he was so consumed by the Dark Side he nearly destroyed his family. He's redeemed by remembering why he started down this path to begin with and saves his son, recognizing that the Dark Side only ever led to destruction and pain. Kylo Ren did not fall to the Dark Side because he wanted to save his family or because Han Solo was a bad father. The films show that he willingly chose this path, seduced purely by its power. This is why Han Solo was unsuccessful in convincing him to back down in TFA, Ren wanted power more than family, love, or acceptance.

In order for him to be redeemed he needed to understand what the sole pursuit of power rewards you with. This is why Treverrow's script about him visiting a Sith Tomb and Luke's Ghost reminding him that this is where his path will lead him to is on point. Kylo has to confront why his pursuit of power was wrong, he needs to understand what it ultimately leads to and why it's not something he should desire. Shit, Rebels does this so easily with the character of Agent Kallus. He starts the series as a perfect Imperial Agent and one to be feared. Eventually we see he has a certain sense of honor and believes in the ideals of the Empire, he doesn't question them. The crucial turning point comes when he and Zeb get stuck on a planet together and end up working together to survive. In the end, they are both saved and return to their respective sides. However, Zeb is returned to greeting friends who embrace him and exclaim how worried they were about him. Kallus returns to the cold empire and a solitary room. No one cares what he's been though. No one embraces him upon return. No one asks him how he's doing. He's just another disposable cog in the Imperial Machine. And, this is what leads to his turn to the Rebel Alliance.

Kylo Ren could have used a similar sort of poignant moment, a reflecting point as he achieves complete mastery of the galaxy only to find he is no more happy than when he was a pupil under Luke. Such a moment could be contrasted with Rey, "the girl from nowhere" whom everyone loves and embraces, even his own mother. Hell, keep the stupid "Rey is a Palpatine" twist in and such a moment could still work as it would show Ren that even though her ancestor is the literal personification of evil, none of her friends care and still embrace and love her, including Leia and Han. Examining and reflecting upon such a moment could lead to Ben finally turning from the Dark.

OR you could have Force Ghost/Memory Han show up to forgive Ren for murdering him and then Kylo immediately switched to the Light...
This is so well written. Bravo.
 

Drewton

Member
Oct 27, 2017
12,292
Bendemption is not impossible after TLJ, but it shatters once and for all the idea that Ben is "tragic." He's not Anakin Skywalker. His fall to the Dark Side was not a tragedy.
Of course it doesn't show that. TLJ specifically showed Ben's view of how Luke was standing over him with a lightsaber drawn seemingly about to murder him in his sleep. The movie did the opposite of what you're saying and added another layer of tragedy to Ben.



It's what he wanted. As he states, "I am a monster." The end of TLJ shows that when the chips are down, he willingly chooses power over acceptance and love. Snoke is dead (the person who supposedly manipulated him), Rey is willing to forgive and accept him, his mother wants him back, yet he still chooses to remain Kylo Ren because that's who he really is.
Ben wants acceptance and love. He wants power but he doesn't want to be alone. That's why he extends his hand to Rey.



When Rey rejects him and the ship splits in half, and Ben wakes up, it's basically a repeat of when Luke almost struck him down and the hut collapsed. Ben is filled with the same anger and hate that he experienced that night. Because he feels alone. It's only in these final moments that Ben sees how useless and self destructive this anger is.



Ben doesn't actually want to be alone. He's a character who thinks that acts like killing his father or becoming Supreme Leader will bring him closer to the dark side and that he will be happier if he can just extinguish the call to the light he's feeling, but that just doesn't happen. It doesn't bring him any satisfaction. His father's dice fading in his hands and Rey closing the door on him clearly weigh on him. They wouldn't if all he cared for was power.



Kylo Ren could have used a similar sort of poignant moment, a reflecting point as he achieves complete mastery of the galaxy only to find he is no more happy than when he was a pupil under Luke.
That's exactly what already happened in Last Jedi in the moment above.

Such a moment could be contrasted with Rey, "the girl from nowhere" whom everyone loves and embraces, even his own mother.
And yes, we already saw these two things directly contrasted too.





TROS' "redemption" is hollow because at no point does Ben Solo accept that his previous actions were wrong, at no point does he come to understand that his viewpoint was incorrect.
Of course he does. I'd say that he realizes he was wrong at the end of Last Jedi, but as he says in TROS, he believes "it's too late" to come home. He felt abandoned by his parents, and believed his uncle was about to kill him. He didn't turn simply because he was seduced by power. So he turned to Snoke, and to the voice of his grandfather, Vader. In TROS, Ben comes to realize the depth of the manipulation and how both those major, almost parental or familial, influences in his life were lies. He realizes he's in the wrong, and it's not until he speaks to the vision of his dead father, willing to forgive him, that he's able to also realize that it's not too late to turn back. He dies choosing to fight against the people who have manipulated him against his true family.

“I know what I have to do but I don’t know if I have the strength to do it” feels like a similar recognition of guilty as “tell your sister you were right.”
And yes, this.

You can criticize the execution but it's objectively false to say that Ben doesn't accept that his previous actions were wrong.
 
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JB1981

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
11,842
“I know what I have to do but I don’t know if I have the strength to do it” feels like a similar recognition of guilty as “tell your sister you were right.”
 

MisterHero

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,331
That's why I don't care for "Star Wars must always have redemption"! Why is mandated that Ben must be redeemed but we aren't saying that about Palpatine, Maul, Snoke, and Dooku? Are only force users eligible for this brand of redemption?
The reason I don't like dooming villains is if people keep seeking unquestionably evil characters in fantasy, they'll keep believing in and seeking evil in real life people.

There are real people who do absolutely shitty things, and because there's real weight to loss of lives, property, or even country, they have to be punished. This doesn't have to be true in fantasy.

This trilogy could have asked the same question about Stormtroopers and elevate them beyond cannon fodder. Indeed, the Prequel clones weren't completely bad. Jango Fett even wanted a son.

We don't have to be right everytime about a character's morality, but we should be challenging the idea that people are evil just because.
 

CrichtonKicks

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,868
The reason I don't like dooming villains is if people keep seeking unquestionably evil characters in fantasy, they'll keep believing in and seeking evil in real life people.

There are real people who do absolutely shitty things, and because there's real weight to loss of lives, property, or even country, they have to be punished. This doesn't have to be true in fantasy.

This trilogy could have asked the same question about Stormtroopers and elevate them beyond cannon fodder. Indeed, the Prequel clones weren't completely bad. Jango Fett even wanted a son.

We don't have to be right everytime about a character's morality, but we should be challenging the idea that people are evil just because.
Sure but the good thing with TFA and TLJ is they put the leg work in. No one accepts that Kylo is "evil just because". No one gives up on him. That's what makes him a good and unique villain. We see the conflicted anti-hero all of the time. We see the mustache twirling villain who is pure evil. It's a rare treat to get such compelling development for a bad guy and a colossal waste to throw that all way just to mirror story beats from an earlier movie.

If you are going to put that level of effort in showing a character rejecting the light, so to speak, then you have to put the same effort into making them coming backto the light feel earned. It must be organic. Here it feels like they just took at as gospel that "Kylo must turn to the good in the final act because Star Wars" and threw in the towel.

Like you said there are others (like the TFO storm troopers who are brainwashed and forced into service) who should get the same attention. But they don't. So I see no reason that it needed to be pre-ordained that Kylo get redeemed.

Hell they could have linked them- instead of Kylo showing his redemption by white knighting the woman he loves (who didn't really need his help in the end anyway), maybe he could have worked to free all of those poor TFO storm troopers before they were killed in the final onslaught? That would have better act of redemption.
 

CrichtonKicks

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,868
Take it up with Lucas. He said Star Wars is ultimately about redemption. To not redeem Anakin's grandson in the end of the story would have totally gone against that idea.
So it was reverence for Lucas's ideas that caused them to nullify Vader's sacrifice (and therefore fail to bring balance to the force) with Palpatine back from the dead?

If Star Wars is going to have a continuing legacy then filmmakers must be able to create and explore new ideas instead of constantly retreading the OT.
 

Veelk

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,663
This is why Han Solo was unsuccessful in convincing him to back down in TFA, Ren wanted power more than family, love, or acceptance.
Great post, with this being my only point of contention here. The thing about Ren is that for all his tantrums and sound and fury, he doesn't seem to actually want anything from the dark side. He makes some mentions of power, sure, but I feel what he's really seeking is some kind of inner peace. In TFA, he talks about how he's being torn and drawn to the light. For me, his killing of Han Solo in TFA wasn't so much a grab at power as it was an attempt to fully commit to the dark side. Yes, he'd get power, but he wouldn't have to live with fear, with guilt, with anger. He could be the stoic, uncaring badass he idealizes Vader to be.

Which is what ultimately causes his disillusionment with Snoke. He recognizes that Snoke is just once again dangling this promise to him that he will finally be happy if he just kills Rey, and he recognizes that all Snoke's actually doing is manipulating his sense of unhappiness. For Kylo Ren, it was just the Han moment all over again, and he knew that even if he did what Snoke asked, he wouldn't find peace.

There's also the Luke incident. I've thought a lot about that in terms of unreliable narration and I constantly wonder if that dark eyed, evil Luke whose trying to murder him, was he just trying to manipulate Rey. And Kylo Ren definitely tries to manipulate Rey in several cases. Like forcing her to verbalize "Why did you kill Han" (something emotionally difficult for her) seemingly just to make her say it, before, instead of answering, he just turns the question on her and her insecurities. This is a complicated issue since we know Luke fucked up, but Kylo Ren's response, his seething hatred of Luke seems an overreaction.


Ultimately, one reason I think people have trouble parsing out Kylo Ren and his potential redemption is that no one can truly figure out what his deal is. Like you pointed out, his life is so priveledged compared to any protagonist of the series. He is born into one of the most beloved and loving families in the galaxy, one of the wealthiest, during peacetime after a great war, is not just force sensitive but has some of the greatest potential of his generation, tutored by Luke, the Hero of the Rebellion....What more could he want? What else does the universe have to give him in order for him to be happy? He feels like he's....just angry and miserable. As if those are his defining characteristics as a person and he can't get rid of them no matter what he does.
 

Veelk

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,663
Of course it doesn't show that. TLJ specifically showed Ben's view of how Luke was standing over him with a lightsaber drawn seemingly about to murder him in his sleep. The movie did the opposite of what you're saying and added another layer of tragedy to Ben.

It's hard to know how much of this is how he genuinely sees things vs how much of it is manipulating Rey. And he definitely does manipulate her at points, including that specific conversation.
 

Drewton

Member
Oct 27, 2017
12,292
It's hard to know how much of this is how he genuinely sees things vs how much of it is manipulating Rey. And he definitely does manipulate her at points, including that specific conversation.
Rian Johnson: "This is Kylo’s version of it where he tells her that he woke up, saw Luke about to kill him and defended himself. Which, I don’t think he’s lying, actually. In my mind, that is, that was his experience. It’s actually Luke who was really distorting the truth when he left out the stuff in his first telling of it. But you know I really think it’s probably twisted a little bit by Kylo’s own anger and his own prejudices against Luke, but I feel like he’s actually telling her the truth of his experience in this communication."
 
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