Star Wars: The Rise of Skywalker |OT| Revenge of a Sith (SPOILERS NOW OPEN)

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Veelk

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Oct 25, 2017
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Rian Johnson: "This is Kylo’s version of it where he tells her that he woke up, saw Luke about to kill him and defended himself. Which, I don’t think he’s lying, actually. In my mind, that is, that was his experience. It’s actually Luke who was really distorting the truth when he left out the stuff in his first telling of it. But you know I really think it’s probably twisted a little bit by Kylo’s own anger and his own prejudices against Luke, but I feel like he’s actually telling her the truth of his experience in this communication."
That's nice for him to say that in an interview.

It's not a confirmed thing in the movie though, so it's still up in the air.
 

Drewton

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Oct 27, 2017
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That's nice for him to say that in an interview.

It's not a confirmed thing in the movie though, so it's still up in the air.
I mean it's not explicitly spelled out for the audience it's pretty silly to argue for a different interpretation of that scene when we got clear confirmation from the commentary of what the intention was.
 
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Veelk

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Oct 25, 2017
5,712
I mean it's not explicitly spelled out for the audience it's pretty silly to argue for a different interpretation of that scene when we got clear confirmation from the commentary of what the intention was.
Director intentions are immaterial. What matters is what we have.

What we have is a scene that can certainly be read that way, but can also be read as Ren manipulating the truth.

And that's good. That sort of ambiguity challenges us to think on and speculate about what characters are truly doing, who they really are.

But writers don't get to write a scene with some ambiguity and then say "No no no, THIS is the correct answer". If Rian wanted it unambiguous, he should have written it into the movie.

As it is now, it's more like this is just the interpretation that one viewer of that film has, which is no more valuable for any other for that viewer also being the director.
 

Drewton

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Oct 27, 2017
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As it is now, it's more like this is just the interpretation that one viewer of that film has, which is no more valuable for any other for that viewer also being the director.
I can't agree on that. One interpretation isn't backed up by the writer/director and the other is, and that definitely at least adds more value to that interpretation.
 

DavidDesu

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Oct 29, 2017
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Glasgow, Scotland
Second time today since December. The film didn’t feel as frenetic second time around (I was a bit tipsy first time lol). Probably the most egregious thing was... WHY did they crash land on Endor (it is Endor right, where the Death Star crashed)... there was literally no reason given why they crash landed the Falcon. They just do so it means they can’t just fly straight over to the Death Star wreckage and thus split up the characters. Did I miss something?

The kiss still feels so silly. A touching smile between them, maybe a few words, Ben dies. The kiss is just so out of place. He still killed a bunch of civilians, even in this movie. Even if Ren“died” and Ben was brought back, meh it’s just a bit weird.
 

DavidDesu

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Oct 29, 2017
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Glasgow, Scotland
Oh and sorry to double post but I REALLLLY liked how they did the force jumping and movement in this film. Especially on the Death Star battle, the way Rey sort of superman’s a massive backflip. The way they’ve done the stunt work and effects work with that gave it an amazing look. It could’ve easily looked goofy but I really liked it. Far better than the really silly Jedi fast blur running we got in Episode 1 (and never ever again, like at the end where Obi Wan could’ve done that to get to Qui Gon and Maul quicker but he just ran at human speed instead.. hmmm).

But yeah really loved the force powers in this. Looked amazing and not over the top.
 

Drewton

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Oct 27, 2017
12,423
Oh and sorry to double post but I REALLLLY liked how they did the force jumping and movement in this film. Especially on the Death Star battle, the way Rey sort of superman’s a massive backflip. The way they’ve did the stunt work and effects work with that give it an amazing look. It could’ve easily looked goofy but I really liked it. Far better than the really silly Jedi fast blur running we got in Episode 1 (and never ever again, like at the end where Obi Wan could’ve done that to get to Aui Gon and Mail quicker but he just ran at human speed instead.. hmmm).

But yeah really loved the force powers in this. Looked amazing and not over the top.
I really liked that too.
 

BossAttack

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Oct 27, 2017
19,426
Of course it doesn't show that. TLJ specifically showed Ben's view of how Luke was standing over him with a lightsaber drawn seemingly about to murder him in his sleep. The movie did the opposite of what you're saying and added another layer of tragedy to Ben.

No. No. NO.

Why do people always use this flashback when we know it is false? The crazy, murderer Luke is the Luke that Kylo portrays to Rey to manipulate her into joining his side. It's not what actually happens. The deeper questions is whether Kylo actually believes this POV to be true, but the answer is irrelevant because he NEEDS it to be true. He can't accept that Luke was a caring uncle that was trying to guide him and wasn't jealous of his power and trying to murder him in in his sleep. He needs the Hut incident to happen that way so he can justify his horrible actions. He needs a scapegoat in the form of Luke. This is why Luke knew he couldn't be the one to "save" Ben. Because Luke and Snoke could always be used as Kylo as scapegoats for his behavior, once they were removed in TLJ it should have allowed Kylo to confront the harsh reality of who he is and the choices he made.

Let's examine this, if Kylo really thought Luke Skywalker was the man pictured above then why did he also destroy his temple and murder all his students? Now, don't quote me some dumbass comics, those don't matter. The only thing that matters are the films. And, the films are clear that Kylo destroyed the temple and killed Luke's students. Nothing in TROS contradicts this. So, why if it was just Luke that was mean to him and he acted purely in self-defense, why did he need to go so far as to completely destroy his temple and cut down a bunch of kids? Why didn't he just return to his loving parents who'd understand him defending himself? Maybe, just maybe, it was never about Luke. Perhaps, this is how Kylo has always been.




Ben wants acceptance and love. He wants power but he doesn't want to be alone. That's why he extends his hand to Rey.


When Rey rejects him and the ship splits in half, and Ben wakes up, it's basically a repeat of when Luke almost struck him down and the hut collapsed. Ben is filled with the same anger and hate that he experienced that night. Because he feels alone. It's only in these final moments that Ben sees how useless and self destructive this anger is.


Ben doesn't actually want to be alone. He's a character who thinks that acts like killing his father or becoming Supreme Leader will bring him closer to the dark side and that he will be happier if he can just extinguish the call to the light he's feeling, but that just doesn't happen. It doesn't bring him any satisfaction. His father's dice fading in his hands and Rey closing the door on him clearly weigh on him. They wouldn't if all he cared for was power.


That's exactly what already happened in Last Jedi in the moment above.


And yes, we already saw these two things directly contrasted too.
I hate to compare Kylo Ren/TFO to the alt-right since TFA came out before the election of Trump and pre-dominance of the alt-right in the media's mind. However, TLJ is specifically trying to make allusions to the alt-right and confronting toxic masculinity. As a result, Kylo Ren channels incel characteristics. This is a man with loving parents. A person who came from wealth. A person whose family was renowned and respected. Yet, he's an angst riddled man-child who literally attempts to murder his loving parents, to kill those memories. Why? Well, we're meant to ponder on that before TROS and to me the answer was clear, much like incels and alt-right supporters, Kylo/Ben likely felt he wasn't given the respect he felt he was owed. He came from royalty, he's a literal Prince. But, I bet you that neither Luke, Han, or Leia treated him as such, at least in his eyes. They probably tried to raise him like he was equal to everyone else, to not give him special treatment. And, the idea of equality is poison to such individuals as they feel they were denied their birthright ie white supremacy.

This is why Kylo is so obsessed with Anakin's saber and the Vader helmet, he feels this legacy is owed to him. The power. The respect. The superiority. And, these are things that were denied to him by his family so that he could be among "equals." He likely loathe Luke because he wasn't treated as his special apprentice who all other students should bow before. Thus, he rebels and joins Snoke because TFO offers him what he believes he's always wanted, superiority. To be called Master of the Knights of Ren, likely meant a lot to him and his ego.

But, like all incels he doesn't want to be alone. He also wants to be loved. But, to him love is owed, something he demands, not something he earns. We see this as he yells and feebly begs for Rey to join him. However, he's unwilling to do anything to earn that love, he's unwilling to give up his thoughts of superiority.

TLJ sets up a possible path to redemption as he realizes what this path will ultimately lead him towards, solitude. Yet, this is NOT reinforced by TROS. It's completely abandoned and instead Ren flips 180 after seeing a Force Ghost/Memory of the father he murdered.

Great post, with this being my only point of contention here. The thing about Ren is that for all his tantrums and sound and fury, he doesn't seem to actually want anything from the dark side. He makes some mentions of power, sure, but I feel what he's really seeking is some kind of inner peace. In TFA, he talks about how he's being torn and drawn to the light. For me, his killing of Han Solo in TFA wasn't so much a grab at power as it was an attempt to fully commit to the dark side. Yes, he'd get power, but he wouldn't have to live with fear, with guilt, with anger. He could be the stoic, uncaring badass he idealizes Vader to be.

Which is what ultimately causes his disillusionment with Snoke. He recognizes that Snoke is just once again dangling this promise to him that he will finally be happy if he just kills Rey, and he recognizes that all Snoke's actually doing is manipulating his sense of unhappiness. For Kylo Ren, it was just the Han moment all over again, and he knew that even if he did what Snoke asked, he wouldn't find peace.

There's also the Luke incident. I've thought a lot about that in terms of unreliable narration and I constantly wonder if that dark eyed, evil Luke whose trying to murder him, was he just trying to manipulate Rey. And Kylo Ren definitely tries to manipulate Rey in several cases. Like forcing her to verbalize "Why did you kill Han" (something emotionally difficult for her) seemingly just to make her say it, before, instead of answering, he just turns the question on her and her insecurities. This is a complicated issue since we know Luke fucked up, but Kylo Ren's response, his seething hatred of Luke seems an overreaction.


Ultimately, one reason I think people have trouble parsing out Kylo Ren and his potential redemption is that no one can truly figure out what his deal is. Like you pointed out, his life is so privileged compared to any protagonist of the series. He is born into one of the most beloved and loving families in the galaxy, one of the wealthiest, during peacetime after a great war, is not just force sensitive but has some of the greatest potential of his generation, tutored by Luke, the Hero of the Rebellion....What more could he want? What else does the universe have to give him in order for him to be happy? He feels like he's....just angry and miserable. As if those are his defining characteristics as a person and he can't get rid of them no matter what he does.
See above.

Again, I believe Kylo has to see Luke the way he does otherwise his whole internal narrative he built up to justify his actions fall apart. It's also why Luke had to remove himself from the playing board.
 

Drewton

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Oct 27, 2017
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BossAttack , I actually agree with a lot of that. I care nothing for the comics especially when Ben specifically says in TLJ “I destroyed his temple”, and the films are the only thing to me that matters. There is an alt-right-like element to Kylo Ren and the First Order. He does feel a sense of entitlement, especially to Anakin’s legacy. But I do believe he genuinely felt cast aside by his parents and that his uncle wanted to kill him. I mean, I know Luke didn’t actually want to kill him, but from Ben’s viewpoint, to wake up with his uncle holding a lightsaber him is insane. It’s not just a made up version he’s telling Rey to manipulate her into joining him, it’s what he actually experienced. That has to traumatize him. Yes, he then burns Luke’s temple, but I don’t believe it’s just something he wants to do and he’s looking for an excuse, it’s out of a feeling of actual betrayal and hatred and bitterness resulting from that. As Luke says, “And the last thing I saw... were the eyes of a frightened boy whose master had failed him.”



When Luke (seemingly) turns against him he totally turns himself against the Jedi and tries to commit himself to another ideology. Killing his father isn’t something he actually wants to do or is looking for an excuse to do, it’s something he feels he needs to do. Yes, Ben does want to hold on to his feelings of bitterness and hatred towards Luke. Unlike Luke, he’s consumed by the past. But I think he also realizes how futile that is at the end of the movie. Yes, Ben does feel entitled to the Skywalker legacy, but he also hears Darth Vader’s voice speaking to him, so why wouldn’t he?

Again, Ben does find that he is no happier as Supreme Leader and with Luke and his father dead, and he does come to realize that his previous actions were wrong. His feelings of solitude are reinforced when Leia dies and he says it’s too late to go back to his family. “However, he's unwilling to do anything to earn that love, he's unwilling to give up his thoughts of superiority.” And we see that change in him when he gives up his life for Rey. Throwing away the lightsaber is symbolic of him throwing away the power of being supreme leader.
 
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Veelk

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Oct 25, 2017
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See above.

Again, I believe Kylo has to see Luke the way he does otherwise his whole internal narrative he built up to justify his actions fall apart. It's also why Luke had to remove himself from the playing board.
I don't disagree with anything in particular about interpretting his actions through the lens of an incel/alt-righter, but it doesn't really explain to me why he is this way. Did Luke, Leia and Han never instill the values of democracy and equality into this kid? This movement didn't just spring from nowhere, it specifically comes from really bad societal problems we have, which aren't stated to be present in the SW universe. Maybe you can say that is inline with how the rest of the series doesn't really bother explaining it's political landscape outside of framing whose fighting who, but in this case, if this is going to be the root of a character, why Ben managed to fall so far when his parents are some of hte most noble people in the galaxy, it's....weird, isn't it?
 

Crossing Eden

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Oct 26, 2017
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Ultimately, one reason I think people have trouble parsing out Kylo Ren and his potential redemption is that no one can truly figure out what his deal is. Like you pointed out, his life is so priveledged compared to any protagonist of the series. He is born into one of the most beloved and loving families in the galaxy, one of the wealthiest, during peacetime after a great war, is not just force sensitive but has some of the greatest potential of his generation, tutored by Luke, the Hero of the Rebellion....What more could he want? What else does the universe have to give him in order for him to be happy? He feels like he's....just angry and miserable. As if those are his defining characteristics as a person and he can't get rid of them no matter what he does
 

BossAttack

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Oct 27, 2017
19,426
I don't disagree with anything in particular about interpretting his actions through the lens of an incel/alt-righter, but it doesn't really explain to me why he is this way. Did Luke, Leia and Han never instill the values of democracy and equality into this kid? This movement didn't just spring from nowhere, it specifically comes from really bad societal problems we have, which aren't stated to be present in the SW universe. Maybe you can say that is inline with how the rest of the series doesn't really bother explaining it's political landscape outside of framing whose fighting who, but in this case, if this is going to be the root of a character, why Ben managed to fall so far when his parents are some of hte most noble people in the galaxy, it's....weird, isn't it?
I mean you're basically asking why the alt-right is popular and gaining steam.

Often we're talking about individuals that do come from loving, well-off families. Yet, they feel isolated in the world and the alt-right offers them something, they offer them the belief that they are special. The idea that they are above everyone else and society owes them something more than what they were given. Again, I can see that being the case for Ben. His family likely did instill democratic values into him and part of that would include equality. But, it's hard to feel "special" when you are amongst equals. So, when someone like Snoke comes along and tells him he is special, that the galaxy does owe him something, that he has a birthright, that he doesn't have to pretend to be among equals, that could easily appeal to a young Ben Solo.
 

blomby

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Nov 14, 2019
62
Star Wars is an allegory for real wars.! It’s in space so the science can be analogous with religion. But also, politics. This is what makes Star Wars so good. Politicians are young hip children with light swords. They have mind powers. They blow up space ships. If only this was real life and not the epic JJ dream film.
 

Ushojax

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Oct 30, 2017
3,411
I thought the Oracle was just some dumb way for Kylo to find out that Sheev didn’t actually explode at the end of ROTJ. Instead they chopped it out and just had Sheev do a guest spot in Fortnite to announce his return.
 

Oozer

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Oct 25, 2017
1,744
A partial list of soundtrack cues has leaked out. They come from a cut of the film dated November 11th, 2019. Music was still being recorded until November 21st, so this is not everything in the final film. This is the cues put in their original order, but not the order of the edit as of that November 11th date. The number before the "M" is the "reel" the cue was originally written for. In olden times that would be an actual film reel, in current times it usually just means a chunk of 20 minutes, which is roughly how long an old film reel was. The second is the sequence within the reel. Letters or weird numbering means there were revisions or changes. The original link includes the source table these titles came from with a bunch more information and some good discussion about the sequencing of the score and OST.

1M01 Main Title
1M022 The Ninth Beginning
1M05 Rey Trains
1M06 Ren's Entrance
1M08 Approaching The Nursery
1M09 Rey Wakes Up
1M13 Tell Me What They Are
1M15 Vader's Castle
1M20 Rey Training
1M24 Meditation
1M26 Spy's Message
1M26 Lightspeed Skipping

2M01 Cockpit Dialog
2M02 Fixing The Helmet
2M03 The Wisdom of Maz
2M04 The Emperor Lives
2M06 The Medal
2M07 Ship Trip
2M20 The Forge
2M30 Rey's Mission
2M32 Quicksand

0M01 Children's School
3M00 Lando
3M01 Before The Chase
3M03 No Title
3M06 Knights of Ren
3M07 Ochi and the Dagger

4M01 Rey Senses Ren's Approach
4M02 Rey's Incredible Hand
4M04 Zucini?
4M05 To The End
4M05B Good Ship, Bad Ship
4M06 He Won't Remember
4M07 Rey's Grief
4M10 Red Eyes
4M11 Poe and Girlfriend
4M12 Ship Walk and Talk

5M01 Meddling and Poe's Crush
5M03 Hallway Shooting
5M05 Rey Sees Mother
5M06 Hard To Get Rid Of
5M07 I'm The Spy
5M08 Geneology
5M10 Landing At ?
5M12 Off The Waterfront
5M30 Under a Blanket

6M02 Rey Climbs Pipes
6M02A Climbing
6M04 Daisy In A Veil
6M05 Leia Lies Down
6M07 Stop and Start
6M08 Healing Wounds
6M12 Six Twelve
6M13 Rey's Trip To P
6M20 Sabre Toss

7M01 Seven One
7M02 Rey Meets Luke
7M03 Luke's Advice
7M04 The Meeting
7M05 March Of The Resistance
7M08 Father Knows Best
7M10 Leia's Sabre
7M12 Seven Twelve
7M12A Horses #2
7M20 Approaching The Throne
7M21 Parents
7M30 More Action
7M32 Make The Sacrifice
7M36 Dunkirk
7M38 I Am All The Sith

8M04 Psalm of the Sith
8M05 Jumping The Chain
8M07 Big Ship Blows Up
8M08 On Their Knees
8M10 Success and Sliding
8M11A Dropping The Sabre
8M14 Ben to Rey
8M15 Horn Solo
8M16 End Credits

9M03 Bows
9M05ALT Return to Tattooine


As well as the cue names from prior scores that were tracked into this cut:

13M2 from Ep.6 Vader's Death
7M03 from Ep.3 The Birth of the Twins
7M05 from Ep.3 Plans for the Twins
3M26R from Ep.7 You're Han Solo?
4M36R from Ep.7 I Ran Into You
5M46R from Ep.7 Kylo Stalks Rey
6M50R from Ep.7 Han and Leia Reunion
6M55R from Ep.7 Council Meeting
6M56E from Ep.7 Ren In Cockpit
8M77 from Ep.7 March Of The Resistance
4M36 from Ep.8 Luke and Rey
There are some great titles here. "Rey's Incredible Hand," "Big Ship Blows Up," "Poe and Girlfriend." I'm particularly tickled by "Daisy In A Veil" for Dark Rey.
 

JB1981

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
11,842
A partial list of soundtrack cues has leaked out. They come from a cut of the film dated November 11th, 2019. Music was still being recorded until November 21st, so this is not everything in the final film. This is the cues put in their original order, but not the order of the edit as of that November 11th date. The number before the "M" is the "reel" the cue was originally written for. In olden times that would be an actual film reel, in current times it usually just means a chunk of 20 minutes, which is roughly how long an old film reel was. The second is the sequence within the reel. Letters or weird numbering means there were revisions or changes. The original link includes the source table these titles came from with a bunch more information and some good discussion about the sequencing of the score and OST.



There are some great titles here. "Rey's Incredible Hand," "Big Ship Blows Up," "Poe and Girlfriend." I'm particularly tickled by "Daisy In A Veil" for Dark Rey.
It looks like the beginning of the movie was completely restructured.

Man, they cut a lot of shit from this movie.
 

JB1981

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
11,842
Well, Lucas has a history with the franchise of updated versions...
If they follow the precedent, I would absolutely pay again to see a longer cut!
I have my doubts. Get the feeling JJ has washed his hands of the franchise and probably doesn’t care to cut together another version, nor does Disney want to put anymore money into this movie.
 

CrichtonKicks

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,881
A partial list of soundtrack cues has leaked out. They come from a cut of the film dated November 11th, 2019. Music was still being recorded until November 21st, so this is not everything in the final film. This is the cues put in their original order, but not the order of the edit as of that November 11th date. The number before the "M" is the "reel" the cue was originally written for. In olden times that would be an actual film reel, in current times it usually just means a chunk of 20 minutes, which is roughly how long an old film reel was. The second is the sequence within the reel. Letters or weird numbering means there were revisions or changes. The original link includes the source table these titles came from with a bunch more information and some good discussion about the sequencing of the score and OST.



There are some great titles here. "Rey's Incredible Hand," "Big Ship Blows Up," "Poe and Girlfriend." I'm particularly tickled by "Daisy In A Veil" for Dark Rey.
If each reel is supposed to 20 minutes and there were 9 reals does that mean the movie had an approximately 3 hour run time in early November?

I could swear that the listed run time when tickets went on sale in October was close to the three hour mark.
 

The Emperor

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,326
What is interesting about the cues is the structure of the beginning agrees with that reddit rumour about JJ's cut being hacked and changed LOL where it starts with rey and kylo has more time on mustafar etc
 

Garlador

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Oct 30, 2017
8,836
Star Wars: Why the Reylo Ship Is So Controversial

CBR articulating a bit of how I've felt about the entire Reylo thing. Even people who liked RoS seem to agree this was severely mishandled and it really bugs me on a personal level as I examine my own relationships and my new role as a very protective father to a girl who will grow up in a world full of "Kylo Rens".
 

JB1981

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
11,842
If each reel is supposed to 20 minutes and there were 9 reals does that mean the movie had an approximately 3 hour run time in early November?

I could swear that the listed run time when tickets went on sale in October was close to the three hour mark.
Yes it was 2:35.

Now we know why the beginning of the movie feels hacked to bits
 

Oozer

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,744
If each reel is supposed to 20 minutes and there were 9 reals does that mean the movie had an approximately 3 hour run time in early November?

I could swear that the listed run time when tickets went on sale in October was close to the three hour mark.
I knew I forgot something in my post! I forgot to mention the spotting session. You're correct, as far as I'm aware, about the estimated run time judging by the cue titles. I had forgotten about that originally rumored run time. The movie very well could have been 2 hours and 35 minutes long in October. But that run time would be from the cut used during the spotting session. At some point months ago, J.J. Abrams and John Williams had a "spotting session" for the latter to see the film and begin to plan out his score. Judging by those cue titles, the movie was somewhere in the 2:40 to 3:00 range at this point. By November, a lot of editing had occurred and the movie was no longer the same as it was during the spotting session. The link I posted has a table showing the sequence and duration of cues as of that November edit. It is not the same as what I posted here. The sequence is broadly the same, but there are numerous cues shuffled around. For instance, there are reel 8 cues all over the place and some reel 1 cues have been moved near the end of the movie. Adding up the times listed in that table for the reels, the November 11th cut was at least 2 hours and 10 minutes long, not counting credits. The credits weren't finalized yet and the credits suite hadn't been recorded yet.

What is interesting about the cues is the structure of the beginning agrees with that reddit rumour about JJ's cut being hacked and changed LOL where it starts with rey and kylo has more time on mustafar etc
That rumor was borrowing from existing leaks that had the movie starting differently.
 

Serpens007

Member
Oct 31, 2017
3,588
The Kylo redemption isn't a problem per se, but it feels like a checklist rather than a well thought out path. I don't think he doesn't reflect on his actions, it's just that the movie is bad at telling this story.

To me, it would have been far more powerful if he was the one responsible in bringing Palpatine back, having the galaxy at the edge of destruction and partially responsible for the death of Leia. A "what have I done?" moment where he sacrifices himself in a desperate attempt to undo his wrongs at the last minute
 
Nov 2, 2017
388
Finally saw the movie yesterday after dodging spoilers and memes for a month. There were plenty of mind boggling things going on, but when Kylo died I thought, "oh, shit this universe is finally done with this skywalker business". Then that old lady shows up. I was so hoping her answer would be a confident/content "Rey...just Rey" since it would be nice callback to the earlier scene. But, nah.
 

Forkball

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,531
I finally saw it. It felt like I was watching ten different films all at the same time. It was still better than I expected with some good scenes, but then again it had about a billion scenes so by the law of averages some had to be at least ok.

I left the theater completely emotionless. I didn’t think it was awful, but it left me a shell of a person.
 
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