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Crossing Eden

Member
Oct 26, 2017
53,377
You know I was just thinking that this should've been the year where SW branched out and tried new things amongst all of it's big media. With Fallen Order you got a SW game that didn't start with an obligatory SW story pan and with the SW equivalent of a metal band playing in the character's ear as he works. With the Mandalorian you got something very off from SW when it came to tone as it was about this stoic mercenary who finds a force sensitive child and decides to protect him.


With TROS you get about four years worth of nostalgia pandering all in one film when TLJ explicitly set things up to be completely about the new generation's fight against the FO without having to so heavily rely on the old guard. It feels like such an outlier for all the wrong reasons.
 

Buggy Loop

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,232
Saw the movie last night.

Ooofff. I guess pretty much everything wrong with the movie has already been discussed a million times since the movie release, but i can't believe i went in with low expectations and still left disapointed.

The editing of this movie fucking sucks, like i was thinking during the movie that TV series now have better editing and more cohesion than this.

I went with the ride for a while not caring too much, but when the full new fleet of star destroyers with planet killer weapons had a weakness of a fucking radar tower, i rolled my eyes so hard they left orbit. Holy shit the empire needs better engineers. ~~redundancy~~ What is that??

Also what was the tower supposed to do? Stop them from leaving? But who cares? How was this battle lost by them vs a bunch of old unmaintenanced rebel ships? And also, the destroyers just instantly blew up across the galaxy..because??

Fuck this nonsense.
 

PhaZe 5

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,446
None of that rise up shit was ever going to be handled well because it was contrived to begin with. 99.9% of the ST nobody wants to do anything, but because the rumor of Luke comes up people want to rise up? Stupid. That was just another significant aspect of the war that they clearly wanted to mostly be done in some book between films. It's not a plotpoint to be handled successfully in a single film. That's the kind of thing that takes an entire trilogy to convincingly develop.
 

Mr. Pointy

Member
Oct 28, 2017
5,141
The Kylo redemption isn't a problem per se, but it feels like a checklist rather than a well thought out path. I don't think he doesn't reflect on his actions, it's just that the movie is bad at telling this story.
My perspective is that Bendemption was always going to happen because, from a cynical marketing perspective, Disney still need to sell birthday cards with Kylo Ren on them. I don't think they can get away that with a character who isn't cartoonishly unrepentant, unlike Sheev.
 

Jinroh

Member
Oct 28, 2017
2,190
Lausanne, Switzerland
I went with the ride for a while not caring too much, but when the full new fleet of star destroyers with planet killer weapons had a weakness of a fucking radar tower, i rolled my eyes so hard they left orbit. Holy shit the empire needs better engineers. ~~redundancy~~ What is that??
And they get blown up by single starfighters aiming at the main gun. In the Star Wars universe ships have shields only when the plot needs it.

I find it funny that the combined forces of the first/final order are obliterated across the galaxy in a matter of minutes when the remnant of the empire survived for decades in the old EU. JJ and his conception of a miniaturized galaxy...
 

BossAttack

Member
Oct 27, 2017
43,004
I just rewatched AOTC for some perspective and I still come away feeling that TROS is the worst SW film. AOTC is bad, for sure, but it's at least trying to do something, trying to say something. I feel like I should do a RTTP thread on it. AOTC just feels like one massive missed opportunity whereas TROS just has no idea what it's doing besides trying to please the fandom. Both are equally nonsensical, but AOTC "makes sense" on a grand level but fails on a minute-to-minute level whereas TROS neither makes sense on a grand level or minute-to-minute level.
 

Crossing Eden

Member
Oct 26, 2017
53,377
None of that rise up shit was ever going to be handled well because it was contrived to begin with. 99.9% of the ST nobody wants to do anything, but because the rumor of Luke comes up people want to rise up?
Yes? Luke singlehandedly stopped an entire army. The power of hope would've inspired people. It's pretty ridiculous that it took a year and Lando to get people to rise up.
 

DiipuSurotu

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
53,148
According to TROS, basically every planet wants to rebel but each one thinks they are they only one who wants to, so it isn't until Lando assembles them that they realize their number
 
Oct 28, 2017
13,691
I just rewatched AOTC for some perspective and I still come away feeling that TROS is the worst SW film. AOTC is bad, for sure, but it's at least trying to do something, trying to say something. I feel like I should do a RTTP thread on it. AOTC just feels like one massive missed opportunity whereas TROS just has no idea what it's doing besides trying to please the fandom. Both are equally nonsensical, but AOTC "makes sense" on a grand level but fails on a minute-to-minute level whereas TROS neither makes sense on a grand level or minute-to-minute level.
Such bullshit lol
 

Halbrand

Member
Oct 27, 2017
19,616
Minor thing I noticed: when I watched it the first time on Pasaana the stormtrooper seems to appear out of nowhere after they meet with Lando, but now I noticed when they first get there Poe says that "there's always stormtroopers patrols in crowds like these".
 

SpookyLettuce

Member
May 26, 2018
340
You know what I've realized? As much as I like the trio in theory, I think they kind of hurt this movie in how they're used and written. Which is a bummer, because I was excited to see them interact.

TROS spends almost half of its runtime on Rey, Finn, and Poe going on their Wayfinder adventure, but most of that time is spent on action bits and jokes, and not any meaningful development of friendship between them as a group.

Rey never actually shares much about her struggles to her Resistance friends. She never tells them about her Force connections with Kylo; she never tells them she's a Palpatine; she never brings up her messy history with her parents to them. Any time she senses Kylo or has to deal with some problem, she wanders off on her own and tells Finn and Poe to stay behind. You'd think this would culminate in a moment where she realizes that she should rely on her friends and let them help her, and that the power of their friendship/the Resistance being together saves the day, but it doesn't.

In TLJ, the person Rey confides in the most is Kylo, about her loneliness and abandonment issues. In TROS, Leia (and not Finn or Poe) is the one she talks to about struggling to connect with the past Jedi, and supposedly feeling unworthy of Luke's lightsaber. Luke's the one she talks to in her lowest moment on Ahch-To. All the stuff about her parents and Palpatine lineage and brushes with the dark side (the entire meat of her arc in TROS) happens in her interactions with Kylo/Ben. Even in TFA, a movie where most of her screentime is with Finn, we never get to see Rey talk to Finn about her parents, or being stuck on Jakku, or anything. That stuff only comes up during the interrogation scene with Kylo, and with Han when he tries to hire her, and with Maz of all people. So in TROS, any interactions she has with Finn and Poe feel like fluff.

There is one moment I can remember where she tells Finn that Palps killed her parents and she had visions of herself on the Sith throne with Kylo, but she also tells him that she feels like "no one knows her" and she still doesn't share with him that she's a Palpatine (which is what's causing her whole dark side crisis). Even Luke got to talk to Leia about being related to and confronting Vader in ROTJ, but we don't get anything like that here.

And then Finn -- Finn tells Rey he was an ex-stormtrooper in TFA, but then that's never brought up again between them. He's hesitant throughout this movie to tell Rey and Poe that he's Force-sensitive, and when he finally DOES talk about it, it's with someone outside the trio (Jannah). Him being Force-sensitive could help him connect more with Rey about the dark side and whatnot, but it's so underbaked that its role in his story never amounts to more than "a feeling".

Poe deals with the pressure of being Leia's successor to lead the Resistance in TROS, and that follows through in a nice moment where he names Finn co-general. But he BARELY gets any interactions with Rey, and whenever they do interact, it's just bickering for bickering's sake, instead of any meaningful development of friendship.

And the movie, at least to me, does feel like it picks up in the second half, when the treasure hunt is over and each of the trio are able to do their own thing separately instead of forcing them together. Which says a lot.

So at the end when the three of them hug, it seems like it's meant to be a big, cathartic moment, but it just really falls flat. Imagine if that hour of Wayfinder-hunting had been spent instead on leading to Palpatine's return, and giving scenes more time to breathe, and building up Kylo's redemption more, and letting Rose in on the action.

And the ending message feels so muddied. Is the Resistance meant to be Rey's new "family"? If so, why does it feel like she's not even that close with them? She also takes the name Skywalker as her new "family", which could work in the sense that she connected a lot to Leia, Ben, Han, and Luke, but they're also all dead now, so...that's just depressing.
 
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Halbrand

Member
Oct 27, 2017
19,616
I really like how Rey and Kylo's tug of war over the ship follows up their last confrontation fighting over the lightsaber.
 

BossAttack

Member
Oct 27, 2017
43,004
You know what I've realized? As much as I like the trio in theory, I think they kind of hurt this movie in how they're used and written. Which is a bummer, because I was excited to see them interact.

TROS spends almost half of its runtime on Rey, Finn, and Poe going on their Wayfinder adventure, but most of that time is spent on action bits and jokes, and not any meaningful development of friendship between them as a group.

Rey never actually shares much about her struggles to her Resistance friends. She never tells them about her Force connections with Kylo; she never tells them she's a Palpatine; she never brings up her messy history with her parents to them. Any time she senses Kylo or has to deal with some problem, she wanders off on her own and tells Finn and Poe to stay behind. You'd think this would culminate in a moment where she realizes that she should rely on her friends and let them help her, and that the power of their friendship/the Resistance being together saves the day, but it doesn't.

In TLJ, the person Rey confides in the most is Kylo, about her loneliness and abandonment issues. In TROS, Leia (and not Finn or Poe) is the one she talks to about struggling to connect with the past Jedi, and supposedly feeling unworthy of Luke's lightsaber. Luke's the one she talks to in her lowest moment on Ahch-To. All the stuff about her parents and Palpatine lineage and brushes with the dark side (the entire meat of her arc in TROS) happens in her interactions with Kylo/Ben. Even in TFA, a movie where most of her screentime is with Finn, we never get to see Rey talk to Finn about her parents, or being stuck on Jakku, or anything. That stuff only comes up during the interrogation scene with Kylo, and with Han when he tries to hire her, and with Maz of all people. So in TROS, any interactions she has with Finn and Poe feel like fluff.

There is one moment I can remember where she tells Finn that Palps killed her parents and she had visions of herself on the Sith throne with Kylo, but she also tells him that she feels like "no one knows her" and she still doesn't share with him that she's a Palpatine (which is what's causing her whole dark side crisis). Even Luke got to talk to Leia about being related to and confronting Vader in ROTJ, but we don't get anything like that here.

And then Finn -- Finn tells Rey he was an ex-stormtrooper in TFA, but then that's never brought up again between them. He's hesitant throughout this movie to tell Rey and Poe that he's Force-sensitive, and when he finally DOES talk about it, it's with someone outside the trio (Jannah). Him being Force-sensitive could help him connect more with Rey about the dark side and whatnot, but it's so underbaked that its role in his story never amounts to more than "a feeling".

Poe deals with the pressure of being Leia's successor to lead the Resistance in TROS, and that follows through in a nice moment where he names Finn co-general. But he BARELY gets any interactions with Rey, and whenever they do interact, it's just bickering for bickering's sake, instead of any meaningful development of friendship.

And the movie, at least to me, does feel like it picks up in the second half, when the treasure hunt is over and each of the trio are able to do their own thing separately instead of forcing them together. Which says a lot.

So at the end when the three of them hug, it seems like it's meant to be a big, cathartic moment, but it just really falls flat. Imagine if that hour of Wayfinder-hunting had been spent instead on leading to Palpatine's return, and giving scenes more time to breathe, and building up Kylo's redemption more, and letting Rose in on the action.

And the ending message feels so muddied. Is the Resistance meant to be Rey's new "family"? If so, why does it feel like she's not even that close with them? She also takes the name Skywalker as her new "family", which could work in the sense that she connected a lot to Leia, Ben, Han, and Luke, but they're also all dead now, so...that's just depressing.

It's because "the trio" is bullshit.

They wanted to copy the OT trio, but the entire OT is built off the trio from the start in ANH. Whereas the ST has these characters only all finally meeting at the very end of TLJ. Finn and Rey are the only one that have a connection, but they got seperated in TLJ, still their was setup for their relationship to expand in TROS that's entirely thrown away. Poe meanwhile was basically a cameo in TFA, he wasn't a real character. Thus, we had to have TLJ turn him into a character. However, I fundamentally disagree with Rian that Poe and Finn needed to be split up. The film would've worked so much better if Poe and Finn stayed together, building on their relationship. It would also help setup the eventual trio, unfortunately TLJ separates everyone despite them never having been together in the first place.

By the time we get to TROS we've got our "trio," but it feels hollow since this is our first time seeing them all together. And even worse, as you mentioned, they don't act like friends. It's a complete waste. Rey is straight up the worst friend ever. It's hard to believe anyone would be her friend considering how she treats other people, especially Finn.

I really like how Rey and Kylo's tug of war over the ship follows up their last confrontation fighting over the lightsaber.

How?

The fight over the lightsaber was a metaphorical struggle for the legacy over the Jedi and Skywalkers. Their struggle over the ship was just some ship. It has no meaning.
 

PhaZe 5

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,446
According to TROS, basically every planet wants to rebel but each one thinks they are they only one who wants to, so it isn't until Lando assembles them that they realize their number

Trevorrow's B plot would have been excellent as the B plot in VIII--TFO tries to prevent Leia from rebounding and pulling the galaxy together, so TFO cut off communication between systems, leading to the Finn Stormtrooper rebellion on Coruscant and the beaming of the message to unify/resist. Could have still had the Luke sacrifice except with actual video footage of his final act, which would be far more effective than a rumor.

RJ went too far in trying to get things to go from 0 to 100 in VIII. Spent the valuable middle chapter of the trilogy in putting the resistance numbers down to close to single digits, but throws in the last minute message of "don't worry though, everyone's really excited about that narrow escape of like a dozen resistance members despite a complete loss of their fleet. Be inspired by Broom kid!"

JJ doesn't do any better with how the resistance just kind of wins at the end of TRoS, despite the fact that the Sith fleet had zero to do with why the galaxy was getting dominated to begin with.

The ST does the hard part by having good actors in place with characters that people really dig that rival the OT cast, but flubs on so many other details that should have been common sense.
 

Halbrand

Member
Oct 27, 2017
19,616
It's because "the trio" is bullshit.
Personally I find them growing into a trio over the course of a year fighting together off screen more to flow better than Anakin and Obi-Wan's relationship totally changing off screen from AOTC to ROTS, with Obi-Wan and Anakin having more of a father-son relationship in the former and then being like brothers in the latter. The way they interact is totally different, and their last conversation in Clones is an intense argument with Obi-Wan telling Anakin he will expelled from the Jedi Order for going after Padme. He's suddenly way more understanding in Revenge.

The fight over the lightsaber was a metaphorical struggle for the legacy over the Jedi and Skywalkers. Their struggle over the ship was just some ship. It has no meaning.
Obviously it doesn't have as much meaning, but it's still a nice follow up to it, and a way to show that Rey has become more powerful in the past year. Of course, when she ends using lightning it also shows the dark side within Rey too, so it does have important meaning.
 

danm999

Member
Oct 29, 2017
17,132
Sydney
Why did Palpatine even build the First Order and Starkiller Base via Snoke if Palpatine's plan was to simply build a fleet of Death Stars that could destroy planets and blitzkrieg the galaxy?
 

Bor Gullet

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
12,399
Would anyone have known about Exegal and the Final Order though? Nobody finds out until Palpatine made his Fortnite speech and that First Order guy rats to the Rebels. If there's no First Order and Palpatine keeps his mouth shut, why would he need a smokescreen?

So he could build his fleet of super mega star destroyers in peace for like 30 years, while distracting the Resistance from ever discovering the real threat.
 

Deleted member 7051

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
14,254
Why did Palpatine even build the First Order and Starkiller Base via Snoke if Palpatine's plan was to simply build a fleet of Death Stars that could destroy planets and blitzkrieg the galaxy?

I'm still trying to figure out why he needs a fleet of Death Star Destroyers. The whole point of the Death Star was to invoke fear. It was meant to look as terrifying as it was so he and Vader could go off and uncover the secrets of the Force. What was he going to do with a fleet of planet-killing ships? Park them in orbit above every habitable planet and threaten to blow them up if they stepped out of line? He wouldn't exactly have much of a galaxy to rule that way.
 

Bor Gullet

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
12,399
I'm still trying to figure out why he needs a fleet of Death Star Destroyers. The whole point of the Death Star was to invoke fear. It was meant to look as terrifying as it was so he and Vader could go off and uncover the secrets of the Force. What was he going to do with a fleet of planet-killing ships? Park them in orbit above every habitable planet and threaten to blow them up if they stepped out of line? He wouldn't exactly have much of a galaxy to rule that way.

I love how JJ fully acknowledged the criticism of Starkiller Base from TFA... and then doubled down on it in TROS.
 

danm999

Member
Oct 29, 2017
17,132
Sydney
We find out in TROS that apparently Luke and Lando were searching for Exogol.

So they knew about Palpatine and the plan but didn't tell anyone?

I'm still trying to figure out why he needs a fleet of Death Star Destroyers. The whole point of the Death Star was to invoke fear. It was meant to look as terrifying as it was so he and Vader could go off and uncover the secrets of the Force. What was he going to do with a fleet of planet-killing ships? Park them in orbit above every habitable planet and threaten to blow them up if they stepped out of line? He wouldn't exactly have much of a galaxy to rule that way.

Right the point of the Death Star was to smoke a recalcitrant planet so the rest wouldn't step out of line and you could rule through fear. I don't see why you'd need a thousand of them. I think DiipuSurotu is right he just likes them.
 

Deleted member 7051

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
14,254
I love how JJ fully acknowledged the criticism of Starkiller Base from TFA... and then doubled down on it in TROS.

Sometimes more isn't better, y'know? Starkiller Base was already stupid and it had a crappy name to boot. Why would you ever waste the resources necessary to hollow out a planet so it can fly around and blow up star systems?
 

matrix-cat

Member
Oct 27, 2017
10,284
Things Sheev likes:
- Doing his lightning
- Death Stars
- Fucking

Things Sheev hates:
- Stopping his lightning once he gets a good stream going
- Treason
- Using protection
 
Oct 25, 2017
14,651
I love how JJ fully acknowledged the criticism of Starkiller Base from TFA... and then doubled down on it in TROS.

Retread? Remake? You geeks don't like Death Stars, huh? Sure, sure, I understand your criticism.
How about a hundred fucking death stars you god damned nerds. Make it two hundred. I'm fuckin back and I'm gettin paid.

4mCnDcZ.gif
 

Halbrand

Member
Oct 27, 2017
19,616
The Death Star tech was already miniaturized in TLJ, I was pretty ok with Star Destroyers becoming, well, star destroyers. The amount was excessive though.
 

The Silver

Member
Oct 28, 2017
10,722
The galaxy should be entering a state of MAD with how readily accessible Death Star tech can become thanks to Sheev. Truly he is the real bringer of peace.
 

Halbrand

Member
Oct 27, 2017
19,616
If we get an Episode X, I'm hoping we get a divided galaxy with several different factions preferring to stay independent rather than one New Republic. You can have a lot of interesting stories with Jedi like Rey finding their purpose in the galaxy and choosing between sides in cases where it's not so black and white as Empire vs Rebels.

Although if the galaxy eventually came together again the One Republic could be a fitting name.
 

The Silver

Member
Oct 28, 2017
10,722
I mean, how accessible is it really if it's just the same group that keeps making this and now it's all destroyed?
Hey, I saw the Death Star 2 get completely vaporized and now they're telling me large pieces of it are actually pretty well intact. One of those hundreds of Star Destroyers has some intact Death Star tech in it that someone is going to reverse engineer. Sith Engineering Inc will no longer will have a monopoly on superweapons.
 

danm999

Member
Oct 29, 2017
17,132
Sydney
Seems pretty clear Disney has no feel for the property at all and is just reacting wildly to the perceived flaws of the previous installment, similar to how the DC cinematic universe went.
 

jelly

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
33,841
Won't there be lots of Death Star tech floating around. Another stupid reason to have so many.
 

BossAttack

Member
Oct 27, 2017
43,004
So he could build his fleet of super mega star destroyers in peace for like 30 years, while distracting the Resistance from ever discovering the real threat.

How would the Resistance ever discover the threat when it takes a convoluted treasure hunt to even find Exegol?

The Death Star tech was already miniaturized in TLJ, I was pretty ok with Star Destroyers becoming, well, star destroyers. The amount was excessive though.

No.

In TLJ, the "miniaturized" wasn't literally a Death Star weapon in an even smaller form. What was meant was that they managed to replicate a portion of the Death Star's power into a smaller form to break enemy shield defenses. The weapon didn't vaporize the entire rebel base on Crait along with half the planet, it merely blew open a door. It's like a "miniaturized" nuclear weapon. They don't have the same destructive capability as a regular Atom bomb/ICBM, but you can get a smaller nuclear explosion that can at least wipe out a town as opposed to an entire city.

TROS is literally taking Death Star capability and making it fit in a smaller form. It's all the power with none of the drawbacks. It's ridiculous.
 
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