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Zalusithix

Member
Oct 25, 2017
461
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SteamVR (also known as OpenVR) is the primary API by which VR games interface with VR headsets on Steam. While a diverse set of hardware can achieve interoperability with SteamVR, this thread is for the hardware that was built from the ground up for it using the Lighthouse tracking technology pioneered by Valve. It also covers the setup and software that directly interfaces with and alters SteamVR such as overlays and compatibility layers.

For general VR game / software discussion, please use the PCVR Game Discussion Thread. Only software that alters the base functionality of SteamVR is to be discussed in this thread.

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The HTC Vive was the first official SteamVR headset released in April of 2016, and hardly needs an introduction at this point.
  • Screen Type: OLED (Pentile)
  • Resolution: 1080x1200 per eye
  • Refresh rate: 90Hz
  • Field of view: 110 degrees
  • Lens type: Fresnel
  • Physical IPD adjustment between 60 and 74mm
  • Eye relief adjustment
  • Connectivity at PC: 1x USB 3.0, 1x HDMI or DisplayPort
  • Headset connectivity at link box: 1x USB, 1x HDMI, 1x Power
  • Audio: 3.5mm headphone jack
  • Built in microphone
  • Front facing camera
  • Tracking generation: 1.0
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The HTC Vive PRO is an incremental 1.5 update of the original Vive with higher resolution displays, updated headstrap with built in audio, improved center of gravity, and stereoscopic front facing cameras. The Pro version is set to release in Q1 2018 as a standalone headset for existing Vive owners, and as a complete set later in the year. Prices for either version are currently unknown.
  • Screen Type: OLED
  • Resolution: 1440x1600 per eye
  • Refresh rate: 90Hz
  • Field of view: 110 degrees
  • Lens type: Fresnel
  • Physical IPD adjustment
  • Eye relief adjustment
  • Connectivity: 1x USB C 3.0, 1x DisplayPort 1.2 (unclear if this is at the headset/linkbox or PC)
  • Audio: Built in headphones (+ 3.5mm jack?)
  • Built in microphone
  • Front facing camera
  • Tracking generation: 2.0
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LG's headset is currently unreleased and scheduled to reach consumers sometime in 2017. It will usher in the first true competition within the SteamVR ecosystem and likely be the first commercial headset to use the new second generation tracking. Tracking aside, it is looking to be more of a half generational step with marginally increased specs over the Vive and a better designed mounting mechanism.

Unreleased product. Specifications are not final.
  • Screen Type: OLED (Pentile)
  • Resolution: 1440x1280 per eye
  • Refresh rate: 90Hz
  • Field of view: 110 degrees
  • Lens type: Simple
  • No physical IPD adjustment
  • Eye relief adjustment
  • Connectivity at PC: 1x USB 2.0 (3.0 recommended for camera use), 1x HDMI or DisplayPort
  • Headset connectivity at link box: 1x USB 3.0 C
  • Audio: 3.5mm headphone jack
  • Built in microphone
  • Front facing camera
  • Rigid head mount with flip up visor
  • Tracking generation: [Speculation] 2.0 [/Speculation]
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Pimax is releasing a trio of headsets with different display resolutions. Currently a Kickstarter project, when it is released, it'll be the first unit to have both significantly increased FoV and resolution. Given the Chinese startup and Kickstarter nature of the headsets however, buyers should be weary about their ability to produce the product with consistent quality control and provide warranty service abroad - assuming there's any warranty to begin with. Also, while I'm including this here, it's not strictly a dedicated SteamVR headset. It has lighthouse tracking, but also has other tracking modes. It also seems to be incorperating rendering options that Valve doesn't directly support.

Unreleased product. Specifications subject to change.
  • Screen Type: Low perisistence LCD
  • Display Resolution: 2569x1440 per eye (5K model), 3840x2160 per eye (8K model), 3840x2160 per eye (8K X model)
  • Input Resolution: 2569x1440 per eye (5K model), 3840x2160 combined - per eye unknown (8K model), 3840x2160 per eye (8K X model)
  • Refresh rate: 75/90Hz, 150/180Hz with alterating eye "Brainwarp" rendering
  • Field of view: 200 degrees (Reportedly approximately the same vertical FoV as the Vive, but much wider.)
  • Lens type: Fresel (Reportedly with far less fresnel ringing compared to the Vive)
  • Physical IPD adjustment
  • Eye relief adjustment (assumed)
  • Connectivity at PC: 1x USB 3.0, 1x DisplayPort for 5K/8K units, 2x DisplayPort for 8K X units)
  • Audio: (2x?) 3.5mm headphone jack
  • Built in microphone
  • Rigid head mount with built in headphones
  • Tracking generation: [Speculation] 2.0 [/Speculation]
  • Optional wireless module to be released
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The Deluxe Audio Strap for the Vive is an optional accessory which provides increased comfort and headset stability along with built-in adjustable headphones (removable). Unlike the original fabric strap, the DAS is a semi-rigid design with replaceable foam padding at the rear. Tension is achieved by spring loaded sides and an adjustable ratchet wheel on the back. The cable is rerouted to the side and to the back instead of over the head.

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UPDATE January 2018: TPCast is coming out with a "TPCast Plus" setup that swaps out the router for a USB dongle, and streamlines other aspects of the adapter. As such, it's not really advisable to buy the v1 device unless you need wireless now.

TPCast is the first accessory to hit the market that gives users the freedom of being unchained from the PC via wireless transmission from the PC to the headset. It's based on the proprietary WirelessHD standard for HD video transmission over the 60GHz band. While this provides lots of bandwidth for minimal video compression, it is not capable of transmitting non-AV data over that signal. [Speculation] Given reports of audio compression, it might not even be sending audio over the 60GHz band to maximize bandwidth for video. [/Speculation]

The data that would normally be handled by the USB cable is therefore transmitted over a standard WiFi connection to a router (included). It currently does not send the mic data back to the PC properly, but that is supposed to be fixed for the US launch later this year. Camera data is also not sent, so the passthrough video will not be available in VR using the TPCast unit. Work is underway by individuals, particularly those with older unsupported versions, to reverse engineer the way the unit works and enable this missing functionality.

Also of note is that the TPCast unit it not forward compatible with future headsets. It can not handle resolution higher than the Vive. Additionally, 60GHz transmissions will not go through walls or objects in general. Even the human body can block the signal. Thus while the TPCast can provide wireless transmission, it can not act as a range extender to another room like you might consider with regular WiFi.
  • Wireless technology: WirelessHD + WiFi
  • Transmission bands: 60GHz (video) + 2.4/5GHz provided via a separate router for USB/Audio data
  • Max resolution: 2k
  • Latency: <2ms
  • Battery capacity: 20100mAh (Anker PowerCore)
  • Battery life: 5 hours
  • Requires additional ethernet port on the PC or routing your internet connection through the supplied router. Advanced users may be able to configure an existing wireless router to provide the functionality.
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The DisplayLink XR unit is Intel's reference platform for a wireless accessory, and not yet a prototype of hardware intended for commercial production. Another company will have to license the technology for it to see the light of day. That aside, it differs quite a bit from the TPCast unit despite running on the same 60GHz band. It's based on the WiGig standard, and is thus much closer to WiFi in nature. Because the underlying tech is focused more on general data, the DisplayLink XR unit supports transmission of the USB data (including camera) over the 60GHz band. The 60GHz band is subject to the same physical limitations of the TPCast unit however; the receiver and transmitter must be in the same room. Since all data will be broadcast over the 60GHz band and it supports higher resolutions on top of that, the DisplayLink device is obviously relying far more on advanced compression.
  • Wireless technology: WiGig
  • Transmission bands: 60GHz
  • Max resolution: 4k + HDR
  • Latency: 3-5ms
  • Battery capacity: Unknown
  • Battery life: 2 hours
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The official Vive wireless adapter uses Intel's WiGig tech as explained above, and is supposed to release in Q4 2018. Expected MSRP is currently unknown.

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The Vive's controllers are the culmination of Valve's initial testing of natural interaction within a VR environment. They have a clickable trackpad with an LRA haptic feedback motor attached - similar to the trackpads on the Steam Controller. Additionally they have a two stage analog trigger for the index finger and two face buttons to the top and bottom of the trackpad. The top button's function is defined by the VR software in use, while the bottom button is used to bring up the SteamVR menu. Finally there is a pair of grip buttons to either side of the wands that work in tandem as a singular input.

Unfortunately the wands have a number of issues inherent to the way HTC is making them. The triggers are prone to squeaking and the trackpads are known to stop clicking over time due to the way the mechanism was designed. It's possible to fix both problems as an end user, but both require disassembling the controllers for any long lived solution. The grip buttons are also found to be uncomfortable to many for any prolonged use.

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The Vive Trackers aren't traditional controllers so much as general tracking device that can act as an interface between a controller and SteamVR. By utilizing a standard tripod mount, a tracker can connect to third party devices. These devices can range from simple passive objects like a golf club, to an active devices like guns. For active devices a set of pogo pins on the bottom of the tracker or the USB port provides communication with the device to pass button and analog axis states back to the PC. Haptic feedback requests can also be forwarded to the device.

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LG's controllers are an evolution of the Vive's. They maintain a similar form factor, but button locations and counts have changed. All face buttons have been moved to the top of the trackpad, and an additional application button has been added. This brings the face button count in line with the Oculus Touch controllers.

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Valve's Knuckles prototype marks the first venture into a second generation control interface. Like the LG controllers, there are now two application buttons, but they've been moved to the sides of the trackpad . The system button sits below the trackpad, and the trackpad itself has been shrunk and made concave.

The real advancement however is in the way the controller is gripped. Unlike the wand designs, the Knuckles controller straps around the palm - keeping it in place regardless of whether the controller is actually being actively held. This is used with conjunction with capacitive sensors in the grip area, trigger, and touchpad to allow natural gripping and throwing actions. The capacitive sensors can also detect the extension of individual fingers as seen below.

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Since the Knuckles are a complete superset of the original controllers, they'll work in any application without needing to be explicitly supported. In legacy compatibility mode, the capacitive grips can be configured to function as the old digital grip button or the analog trigger.

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Tracking is where the magic occurs in VR. Without 6DoF tracking, VR would be little more than the head mounted displays of yore. Valve's lighthouse based tracking provides this core function for SteamVR hardware. Unlike the Oculus route of outside-in tracking using cameras to look at LEDs on the headset/controllers, SteamVR tracking is inside-out where the tracked objects look for light broadcast by external devices - the titular lighthouses.

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The first consumer SteamVR tracking came in the form of two lighthouses with the Vive. Each lighthouse is comprised of two IR lasers and an IR LED sync array. Each laser shines into the open end of a cylinder. The cylinders are mounted perpendicular to each other and contain a mirror to redirect the laser 90 degrees to a lens in the cylinder wall. The opposite side of the cylinders are attached to specialized hard drive motors spinning at 3600rpm. The lenses in each cylinder fan out the laser beam into a structured line that runs parallel with the axis of rotation. The end result of this setup is two perpendicular laser lines being swept across the room at precise rates. Meanwhile the LED sync array floods the entire forward facing hemisphere with light at once.

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The lasers and sync array are timed so that the LED sync array flashes, which is then followed by a laser sweep of one axis. Then another flash, and a laser sweep of the other axis. Both lighthouses will emit a sync flash simultaneously, but they will alternate between doing the pairs of laser sweeps. The gif below provides an idea of what would be seen in a room with a single lighthouse if it was greatly slowed and visible.

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These light pulses and laser sweeps are picked up by a multitude of sensors embedded in every tracked object. The Vive headset alone has 32 photodiodes behind the shell.

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By using the difference of the timing between the flash and sweep responses of the different sensors, the position of the object in relation to the lighthouse can be triangulated along with the rotation of the object at that location. This information is used as an absolute pose update (position + rotation) to correct drift from the IMUs which provide updates between each lighthouse sweep. It should be mentioned that while there are 120 sweeps per second, a full positional triangulation requires both the X and Y lighthouse sweeps, so there are only 60 full corrections per second.

This first generation of lighthouse based tracking does have a number of limitations.
  • Multiple motors induce vibration which can cause minor jitter in tracking measurements which increases with distance from the lighthouses.
  • Sync is handled by the LED flash array, so lighthouses must have a line of sight to each other or be physically connected.
  • The distance that each lighthouse can cover is also limited by the distance that the flash can reliably be detected at, hindering the potential tracking range of the laser itself.
  • No more than two lighthouses can be used for a single tracking volume.
All of these limitations will be addressed in the second generation of tracking.

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The second generation of lighthouse based tracking is enabled in part due to the advancement of the actual sensors. While the first generation sensors were all discrete parts, the second generation makes use of dedicated ICs with improved capabilities, smaller size, reduced complexity, and lower total cost. The Triad TS4231 will make up the backbone of second generation sensors. Pictured below is the slightly older TS3633-CM1 prototyping module which can be compared to the sensors in the generation 1 section.

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While the ICs reduce complexity on the sensor end, there's also been significant changes on the emitter end with the lighthouses themselves. The dual rotor design has been scrapped in favor of a single rotor containing two offset lenses with each fanning the laser at opposing angles.

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Furthermore, the LED sync array has been removed; the lighthouses and devices now sync on the actual laser sweep instead of a dedicated sync flash. The two lighthouse limitation has also been removed and tracking volumes will support an arbitrary number of lighthouses. (Currently limited to 4 for the initial release of 2.0 tracking.) This should allow more accurate tracking with less occlusion in larger volumes.

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These changes, unfortunately, make for some incompatibility with the first generation. While second generation devices will function properly with first generation lighthouses, the opposite is not true. First generation devices such as the Vive will not be able to operate in a tracked volume provided by second generation lighthouses. Second generation lighthouses are scheduled to enter mass production for consumers in 2018.

Continued in next post.
 
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Zalusithix

Zalusithix

Member
Oct 25, 2017
461
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The play space in SteamVR is representative of the area you have for playing VR unobstructed. A common misconception is that because the lighthouse based tracking provides the capability for large tracked volumes, that a large area is required to use the product. In reality, SteamVR supports everything from seated play, to standing 360, to full roomscale. The first step in achieving a functional play space is mounting the lighthouses.

First generation lighthouses have a 120 degree field of view and are best mounted above the user looking slight down at opposite corners of the tracked space. This provides 360 degree tracking while providing the highest amount of occlusion resistance. As mentioned in the tracking section of this OT, lighthouses need general line of sight to each other, so if something is blocking that, they'll need to be connected by the aux cable and channels changed from B and C to A and B.

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If mounting them overhead isn't an option, they'll still work, but the setup will lose a measure of occlusion resistance. Additionally, if the VR system will only be used for seated experiences such as simulators, then both lighthouses could technically be mounted to either side of the cockpit/desk area facing the user. That said, such a setup should be limited to cases where opposing corners is impossible or highly impractical as 360 tracking capabilities would be lost.

Once the lighthouses are set up, the next step would be to run the actual SteamVR setup and choose the type of play space you're trying to create.

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Chaperone is the system within SteamVR that keeps users aware of the boundaries of their real life environment while they're in VR. It does this by projecting virtual walls as the user approaches previously defined boundaries.

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In the case that a roomscale play space was selected during the SteamVR room setup, the user will be asked to define their safe area. This is best accomplished by using the "advanced" setup option. This mode effectively creates a point on the floor at the controller's location every time the trigger is pressed. Each point is then connected by a straight line segment. By placing points at every wall corner and around objects, a low poly outline of the safe area is created and each of the line segments becomes a chaperone wall.

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Once the outline is set, the SteamVR room setup will best fit a rectangular play space within the outlined area. The dimensions of this rectangle are what is reported to applications that make use of the size of the user's play space. The play space itself is independent of the chaperone boundaries though. In the case of a non-rectangular chaperone area, so long as the game doesn't model the virtual environment to fit the play space, the user can make full use of the entire bounded area.

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Overlays are a means by which applications can be interacted with from within VR, but not be the primary running VR application. They're similar in concept to traditional desktop gaming overlays, but properly integrated into SteamVR.

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OpenVR Adavnced Settings adds another icon to the SteamVR menu and exposes many settings that otherwise would be relegated to the desktop based settings window. In addition to exposing many of the built in options, it also adds many more features that otherwise don't exist. These features include being able to save and load setups complete with different chaperone settings, modifying the chaperone interaction distances, adding a center marker to the play space, removing chaperone, manually moving the virtual world relative to the play space, and much more. OVRAS is a must-have for anybody that uses SteamVR.

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OVRdrop is an overlay that brings a desktop window or monitor into a virtual pane within the currently running VR application. The pane can be interacted with, and can be set to either remain at a static location with the VR environment or attach itself to the viewport or user's controllers.

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TurnSignal is an overlay to help users combat cable twist during gameplay. While OVRAS has a page that will tell the user how many times they've turned, it requires bringing up the OVRAS overlay every time to check - something that's not always viable in the middle of gameplay. TurnSignal, in comparison, overlays a simple starburst pattern on the floor. As the user turns around, the lines warp into a spiral corresponding with the direction turned. The more the user turns, the more intense the spiral pattern becomes. As the user turns back in the other direction, the spiral gradually straightens back out to the original starburst. This way the user can figure out roughly how many times they've turned from the starting point with a simple glance down - not needing to bring up a menu and take themselves out of the game.

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VR isn't perfect on the PC right now. There's two competing store fronts and the Oculus platform does not support SteamVR headsets. Given the similarity between the VR systems, however, it is possible to bridge the divide using third party compatibility layers that translate between the VR APIs.

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Revive is the compatibility layer created by CrossVR to enable the Vive (and by extension SteamVR devices) to work with Oculus games. It includes an overlay to launch any games purchased on Oculus' storefront directly from SteamVR. Compatibility with Oculus games is not 100% however. Before purchasing an Oculus game expecting it to work, please reference the compatibility list.

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What are the minimum specs for VR?
This varies depending on the game, but in general any gaming rig with a GTX 970 equivalent or better should be able to run most games. When in doubt, run the SteamVR Performance Test.
How should I mount the lighthouses if I can't put holes in the wall?
Lighthouses come with a standard 1/4-20 threaded mounting hole that can be used with many tripods and related gear. While tripods consume lots of space, using a floor to ceiling construction support pole or lighting pole in combination with a pole clamp will allow lighthouses to be mounted virtually anywhere without holes
What are the minimum dimensions required for full roomscale?
Roomscale requires 1.5 x 2 meters (5 x 6.5 feet).
What are the maximum dimensions for roomscale?
There's no real maximum, but there are practical limitations. Lighthouses aren't recommended to be mounted more than 5 meters (16 feet) apart from each other. By using the sync cable this distance can be extended further, but the sync flash still has to reach the headset and controllers. Tracking accuracy in general will also decrease the further you are from the lighthouses making spaces greatly exceeding the recommendation less than ideal.
If I'm blind in one eye, can I enjoy VR?
Admittedly half the display would be rendered redundant, but a person with one eye can appreciate VR as much as anybody else relative to their own experiences in real life. Depth perception with a single eye in VR would be accomplished the same way the person does in real life aside from eye accomodation at shorter focal distances.
Can I use the headsets with glasses?
The Vive allows eye relief adjustment and is compatible with a large number of frames. The LG headset also supports eye relief adjustments, so it should end up similar in that regard.
Will I even need glasses?
This depends on your vision. In the case of the Vive, if you're able to focus clearly around a meter or so away, you'll probably be fine without them. If you're at the point where you need to wear glasses to read text on a monitor, however, you'll probably need your glasses. Focal distance for the upcoming LG unit is unknown.
Are there any options to not have to wear glasses if we need them?
Aside from contacts, there's a couple providers of prescription lenses that clip to the Vive's existing lenses. VR Lens Lab is one, and VR Lens EU is another. If going with the Lens Lab option, the RABS option is highly recommended to reduce the distortion that the normal lenses they sell introduce to the image.
Can I increase the breakout box distance from the PC?
Yes. In addition to a longer HDMI cable, you'll need a USB extension cable, or one of the few male/male type A cables out there. Beyond ~15 feet you'll need active cables. Use this resource on Reddit to get started. Extremely long runs are theoretically possible using ethernet extenders, but the chances for things to go wrong increases with every extra device in the chain.
What about extensions from the breakout box to the headset?
In the case of the Vive, the USB and HDMI advice are the same as above, but you'll also need a 1.3 x 3.5mm power cable extension as well. For the upcoming LG headset, extension would be provided by a USB 3.1 type C extension cable, but those are rare, relatively short, and obviously untested right now.
What about extending the power cables for the lighthouses?
First generation light houses for the Vive will need a 2.1 x 5.5mm DC power cable extension.
What is reprojection, and what's the difference between all the different modes in the settings?
An entire thread could be devoted to the details behind reprojection. In short, Reprojection is a method by which an artificial frame is created from a past rendered frame so that the headset can display a rotation corrected frame when a true frame hasn't rendered in time for the headset's refresh.

The different modes alter the way by which these artificial frames are created. In interleaved mode, when a frame is late, the rendering is reduced to half the headset refresh rate. After every rendered frame presented to the headset, an artificial frame is created by warping the previous frame to match where the headset is currently looking. This continues until the framerate recovers. In asynchronous reprojection mode, the rendering continues as fast as possible at all times, and in the event the frame will be late, the rendering is preempted and an artificial frame is derived from the last render.

Always on reprojection alters the way that the timing for CPU -> GPU command submission works. It allows more time for the rendering application to submit GPU commands, but because of this incurs more latency on the rendered image relative to headset position. Due to the added latency, all frames are reprojected before presentation on the headset. This costs the mode on positional accuracy, but can actually increase rotational accuracy. The downside is this mode seems to ignore other modes of reprojection and can result in frame drops that otherwise wouldn't exist if the headroom it provides is used up.

Force interleaved projection forces the application to always render at half the headset refresh rate, and should never be used.
OK, what about supersampling? What is that and what should I set it to?
Supersampling is the process of rendering above the native resolution of the headset's displays and then downsampling the render to the display's native resolution. This results in an image with less aliasing / shimmering, and more detail in general. On the down side, it greatly impacts rendering performance.

The default render target for applications is already by default set to 1.6x the native resolution, so any change to the supersampling setting is actually in addition to that. Currently the scale functions as a liner representation of absolute pixel count. A setting of 2.0 for supersampling will render exactly 2 times the number of pixels as a setting of 1.0, rather than multiplying the x and y resolution values by 2x.

The ideal supersampling value will differ from game to game, and from GPU to GPU. There is no "best" setting. At best another user that has experimented with the same GPU might be able to give advice for a certain game, but it remains something that the individual user should experiment with themselves.

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As large as this thread is, it is merely a drop in the ocean of the available information out there. This section contains links to other sources for further reading and / or discussion on various related subjects.

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Zalusithix

Zalusithix

Member
Oct 25, 2017
461
Unfortunately there seems to be something with the gifs not showing up properly. They'll work in the editor, but not preview/live.

Edit: Also think I dropped it in the wrong forum. Seems the OTs go in "Hangouts". Oh well, I'm sure if it's in the wrong place, a mod will kick it over.
 

Maiden Voyage

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
701
I love it! I started the GAFVR Steam group but never did much with it. I'd be interested in joining if someone else wants to helm it.
 
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Zalusithix

Zalusithix

Member
Oct 25, 2017
461
I'm not sure if anybody noticed since it's a monster of an OP even without the broken gifs, but I have updated it from the old thread with the Pimax headset, and included references to the TPLink reverse engineering project. Debated adding the Noitom Hi5 VR Gloves to it since the Climbey dev was recently using them (video), but at an expected $300 a pair and the niche use case they represent, I'm not sure they're worth the space they'd take up.
 

Samaritan

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,696
Tacoma, Washington
Good to have this back. :)

Though it won't truly feel like a VR thread to me until I see at least one post by Durante.

v---EDIT: That didn't take long, LOL---v
 
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Paganmoon

Member
Oct 26, 2017
5,586
Sweet, great op, lots of info to dive into. Is there a master list of VR OT's here or is this the only one so far?
 

plagiarize

Eating crackers
Moderator
Oct 25, 2017
27,508
Cape Cod, MA
Hello again everyone. I'm still not back in the PCVR space, but these are the three headsets I'm currently leaning towards. I almost pre-ordered the PiMax... but I didn't. I'm sort of hoping to wait for the knuckles controllers. They strike me as the best implementation of hand presence yet.
 

Durante

Dark Souls Man
Member
Oct 24, 2017
5,074
Given the recent news about how to order Valve lighthouses (for partners) I'm getting more and more curious whether Valve will actually do direct consumer distribution of both those and the knuckle controllers.
 

Durante

Dark Souls Man
Member
Oct 24, 2017
5,074
Oh, I just saw the "no physical IPD adjustment" about the PIMAX in the OP.

It's no longer true!
 

Askani

Member
Oct 26, 2017
118
Man...I think I have enough saved for the new PC I want to build and Vive, but Gen 2 headsets are in the back of my mind. Has there been any movement on that? Are we going to have what we have for awhile? When I say awhile, I mean at least 1 year to 18 months. I don't want to be depressed when I jump in and then "new hardware lulz".
 

Durante

Dark Souls Man
Member
Oct 24, 2017
5,074
At least the PIMAX and the LG HMD should certainly release within the next 18 months.

Whether you consider those "Gen 2" is of course a more difficult question.
 
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Askani

Member
Oct 26, 2017
118
I should have clarified. Vive v2. I'm looking for something that's went through at least one iteration of design and release and would like something with a track record.
 

Aztechnology

Community Resettler
Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
14,134
Edit: Nevermind, the Alan Yates video cleared up my questions.
 
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Zalusithix

Zalusithix

Member
Oct 25, 2017
461
Great, the PCVR thread was the one I was looking for really :)
C'mon now, I know the OP is a bit intimidating, but the link to the PCVR thread is in big, bold, red text at the very top of it! =P

Oh, I just saw the "no physical IPD adjustment" about the PIMAX in the OP.

It's no longer true!
Well that's good news. I know they said it was supposed to have it, but I couldn't find any proof. Rather all I found was somebody that tried a unit where the knob did nothing. I'll change that in the OP.

At least the PIMAX and the LG HMD should certainly release within the next 18 months.
With the recent screen issues of the Pixel 2 XL (mura/grain, burn-in) which is made by LG, I'm starting to get concerned about the potential quality of the displays that'll be used in LG's VR headset. Definitely going to be something to watch out for in reviews. Might even be worth holding off on purchases until the dust has time to settle after official release if reviewers haven't had a long time to use them before consumers get their hands on one.
 

Jaysc

Member
Oct 25, 2017
201
Great OT thread OP!

Does anyone have any news about the knuckles controller? Last I heard some developers got their hands on it but that was a while ago.
Also what are people's opinion about the Deluxe Audio Strap? Worth the price?
 
OP
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Zalusithix

Zalusithix

Member
Oct 25, 2017
461
Great OT thread OP!

Does anyone have any news about the knuckles controller? Last I heard some developers got their hands on it but that was a while ago.
Also what are people's opinion about the Deluxe Audio Strap? Worth the price?
There were indeed a number of devs that got their hands on prototypes and gave their impressions. One of the better first showcases was the Climbey dev's footage since it was an actual attempt to use them in a real game. Later on the same dev posted a video of him using them in Lone Echo. Haven't heard much on the current status of their way to production though.

As for the DAS, worth it 100% IMO. It gives better comfort and weight distribution, allows you to look down without the headset shifting, and facilitates easier switching between users. Unless you're one of the edge cases where the original strap fits better, I can't see you being disappointed.
 

Jaysc

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Oct 25, 2017
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There were indeed a number of devs that got their hands on prototypes and gave their impressions. One of the better first showcases was the Climbey dev's footage since it was an actual attempt to use them in a real game. Later on the same dev posted a video of him using them in Lone Echo. Haven't heard much on the current status of their way to production though.

As for the DAS, worth it 100% IMO. It gives better comfort and weight distribution, allows you to look down without the headset shifting, and facilitates easier switching between users. Unless you're one of the edge cases where the original strap fits better, I can't see you being disappointed.
Cool thanks, I'll check out those videos properly but a quick skim makes me think how awesome they are.

In the case of the DAS, I'll probably be temped to get it for Christimas when the gatherings happens then. I don't really like the original strap so it sounds like a good investment, espeicially when switching it between users.
 

Maiden Voyage

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Oct 25, 2017
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I got Scanner Sombre on one of the Humble Bundles. It's not perfect but it's definitely one of the coolest experiences I've had in VR. I would be hard pressed to say that it's worth the price of entry, but if you can get it at a discount (Currently $4), I would readily say go for it. I got about 2 hours out of it.
 
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Zalusithix

Zalusithix

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Paganmoon

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Oct 26, 2017
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Tested's VR show "Projections" had a new episode yesterday. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HvGBF5NXYPE They talk about Haptics, and demo a haptic suit. Seems cool, but a bit cumbersome. Also a missed opportunity to not have SteamVR-tracking on the suit, though it does seem to have gyros.

Edit: then again, this way it's compatible with OR as well.
 
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1-D_FE

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Oct 27, 2017
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With the recent screen issues of the Pixel 2 XL (mura/grain, burn-in) which is made by LG, I'm starting to get concerned about the potential quality of the displays that'll be used in LG's VR headset. Definitely going to be something to watch out for in reviews. Might even be worth holding off on purchases until the dust has time to settle after official release if reviewers haven't had a long time to use them before consumers get their hands on one.

That's definitely interesting. I would assume mura correction would be possible with VR, but obviously burn-in isn't acceptable. Although VR also doesn't stare at the same static screen on a constant basis. So maybe there's some reason to be more optimistic on that.

For me, the biggest thing with LG is going to be what direction they took. I'm firmly in the camp that, because of the price drops, they're going more for a premium VR 2.0 release and not a Vive clone. When it was initially shown, they stated they wanted dev feedback on the ergonomics and that they hoped to have a significantly higher resolution screen and were going to try and incorporate wireless. I feel like they absolutely have to have wireless built-in and higher res panels at this stage. At least if they want to convince people to pay a premium over the Rift.

Maybe it's just my bias talking. Far and away my biggest issue I have with my Vive is I absolutely hate wires. People could say: TPCast. But I have reservations about that whole thing and I'd rather not sink any additional money into my Vive . I'd rather put that money towards a brand new headset and my LG purchase will more than likely be entirely based on whether it's wireless or not.
 

I KILL PXLS

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I feel like they absolutely have to have wireless built-in and higher res panels at this stage. At least if they want to convince people to pay a premium over the Rift.
I think it's going to be a while (ie a gen or two) before we see wireless built in to a major headset. Right now it would add too much to the base cost and makes more sense as a modular add on. We might see something that gets Kickstarted on the side like Pimax that focuses on it but that's probably it for the time being. I do think it would be smart to have a wireless add on at or near launch though.
 

1-D_FE

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I think it's going to be a while (ie a gen or two) before we see wireless built in to a major headset. Right now it would add too much to the base cost and makes more sense as a modular add on. We might see something that gets Kickstarted on the side like Pimax that focuses on it but that's probably it for the time being. I do think it would be smart to have a wireless add on at or near launch though.

Back when Valve invested in Nitero (and before Nitero sold itself to AMD), Nitero was claiming they could actually reduce manufacturing costs versus the things required for wired. Obviously you need to take all PR with a huge grain of salt, but I don't think it's fundamentally a huge cost increase. Maybe it is. Obviously no one no's what's happening with Nitero at this point. And who knows how much the Intel tech will cost. As a consumer, I'm holding out on any upgrades until it happens. Hopefully Gabe's promise of a major HMD release with wireless in 2018 comes true. I just have a hard time seeing what LG's selling point is going to be if it's a slightly upgrade over Vive/Rift. Mine as well just can the project, IMO, if that's the case.
 
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Zalusithix

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Problem is that the acts of moving to wireless and increasing display resolutions are diametrically opposed to eachother. Headsets that push the resolution envelope are going to find it hard to achieve wireless transmission at native resolution without artifacts. Likewise, headsets that focus on being wireless are going to have a hard time increasing the resolution much.
 

I KILL PXLS

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Back when Valve invested in Nitero (and before Nitero sold itself to AMD), Nitero was claiming they could actually reduce manufacturing costs versus the things required for wired. Obviously you need to take all PR with a huge grain of salt, but I don't think it's fundamentally a huge cost increase. Maybe it is. Obviously no one no's what's happening with Nitero at this point. And who knows how much the Intel tech will cost. As a consumer, I'm holding out on any upgrades until it happens. Hopefully Gabe's promise of a major HMD release with wireless in 2018 comes true. I just have a hard time seeing what LG's selling point is going to be if it's a slightly upgrade over Vive/Rift. Mine as well just can the project, IMO, if that's the case.
Well I'm not expecting a Vive 2 until late 2018 -early 2019 so anything is possible by then. The LG headset has always been in an odd midway spot so I wouldn't be surprised if it doesn't have anything that really separates it besides slightly higher resolution, base station 2.0s, and a more comfortable/premium build out of the box.
 

1-D_FE

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Problem is that the acts of moving to wireless and increasing display resolutions are diametrically opposed to eachother. Headsets that push the resolution envelope are going to find it hard to achieve wireless transmission at native resolution without artifacts. Likewise, headsets that focus on being wireless are going to have a hard time increasing the resolution much.

I guess it's really going to depend on what the top tier wireless solutions are really up to. Weren't there like 8 or 9 at one point? The most promising seemed like Nitero, but they've gone dark since the AMD acquistion. And Gabe's quote about wireless being a "solved issue" occurred around the same time as we learned they invested in Nitero. I feel like at least they and Intel didn't seem to think the next bump in resolution would be a problem. But PR bluster is always easy to do.

Guess time will tell. But I honestly feel like we'll see a major wireless HMD before we see Valve's VR games. I know that's a subject for a different thread, but that's something I have become pessimistic about. Chet leaving and Valve going silent has killed all my confidence on that end.
 

Aztechnology

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Ok this current Vive deal with the 1070 has me pretty tempted to switch from my rift. I feel I can pretty easily sell both the Oculus and 1070 and I had intended to pick up fallout 4 VR. This leaves the question of my Pimax order though. Currently I have an order for the early bird 5k set. Presumably including the lighthouse 2.0's which I will be getting eventually due to knuckle controllers. Thoughts on what path I should take. I'm genuinely annoyed by all the tracking stuff I've had to go through with the Oculus because of USB/Cables and clutter. I did a lot of work for routing and setting up everything and it's still not clean.

How likely do people think a valve Knuckle/2.0 lighthouse setup for a reasonable price is going to be?
 

1-D_FE

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Ok this current Vive deal with the 1070 has me pretty tempted to switch from my rift. I feel I can pretty easily sell both the Oculus and 1070 and I had intended to pick up fallout 4 VR. This leaves the question of my Pimax order though. Currently I have an order for the early bird 5k set. Presumably including the lighthouse 2.0's which I will be getting eventually due to knuckle controllers. Thoughts on what path I should take. I'm genuinely annoyed by all the tracking stuff I've had to go through with the Oculus because of USB/Cables and clutter. I did a lot of work for routing and setting up everything and it's still not clean.

How likely do people think a valve Knuckle/2.0 lighthouse setup for a reasonable price is going to be?

I'm a bit unsure of what you're asking, but if the question is Vive Vs Pimax (regarding lighthouse), old hardware doesn't work with Lighthouse 2.0, but new hardware works with lighthouse 1.0. So you won't actually need lighthouse 2.0 to use the knuckles controllers. I mean if that's the question. If you buy a Vive right now, all you'll need is the knuckles controllers. They'll be backwards compatible with old lighthouses. In fact, Vive actually WON'T work with lighthouse 2.0. So you won't be able to pair it with the updated lighthouses. You'll need to use those knuckles with lighthouse 1.0 if paired with Vive.
 

Aztechnology

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I'm a bit unsure of what you're asking, but if the question is Vive Vs Pimax (regarding lighthouse), old hardware doesn't work with Lighthouse 2.0, but new hardware works with lighthouse 1.0. So you won't actually need lighthouse 2.0 to use the knuckles controllers. I mean if that's the question. If you buy a Vive right now, all you'll need is the knuckles controllers. They'll be backwards compatible with old lighthouses. In fact, Vive actually WON'T work with lighthouse 2.0. So you won't be able to pair it with the updated lighthouses. You'll need to use those knuckles with lighthouse 1.0 if paired with Vive.

Ah ok, I misunderstood the lighthouse 2.0 then. I thought it was both a cost savings measure as well as an improvement. I thought it was the opposite and Knuckles wouldn't work with lighthouse 1.0. well this makes it easy for me. I'll definitely grab this, and change my Pimax to the 5k headset only model.

I thought the 2.0 has increased tracking precision, wider area coverage and other improved features? (that being said we're talking about Pimax's 2.0 lighthouse and not Valve/HTC's). So the quality is kind of an unknown.

Sounds like I should go for the Vive now, especially if I'm getting the Pimax? Any QOL/Must have accessories add-ons I should grab?
 
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1-D_FE

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2.0 does have wider coverage area, decreased costs, and slightly better fidelity. The fidelity issue comes down to only having one motor (which creates less vibration.) It's definitely a selling point and all things being equal, a person would take 2.0 over 1.0, but 1.0 are still best in class at the moment. They're good. They're just something that can't be taken forward to use on new HMDs.

The problem is the way things have to sync. Old hardware (like the Vive HMDs) just aren't capable of syncing with the revised way 2.0 works. As stated, however, you can still use new hardware with the old lighthouses. So Vive + knuckles will work assuming it's being used with lighthouse 1.0.
 

Aztechnology

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2.0 does have wider coverage area, decreased costs, and slightly better fidelity. The fidelity issue comes down to only having one motor (which creates less vibration.) It's definitely a selling point and all things being equal, a person would take 2.0 over 1.0, but 1.0 are still best in class at the moment. They're good. They're just something that can't be taken forward to use on new HMDs.

The problem is the way things have to sync. Old hardware (like the Vive HMDs) just aren't capable of syncing with the revised way 2.0 works. As stated, however, you can still use new hardware with the old lighthouses. So Vive + knuckles will work assuming it's being used with lighthouse 1.0.

Right, I understand how the first lighthouse works more or less, I just haven't read much into the documentation for the 2.0. k know it just uses a single rotor with offset instead. For me now it's just trying to figure out how to get this to happen with minimal financial impact. I'll be selling and moving over from the Oculus. My biggest sticking point on that has been cables and how annoying/frustrating it has been to use with glasses. Had to 3D print lens adapter etc as my glasses did not fit (They do in the Vive). So that will basically pay for the Vive after I also sell the 1070. Then later down the road when I get the Pimax, provided it's without serious issues, I'd sell the Vive. Problem then being I'd be trying to sell just the headset without controllers/lighthouse. Is that something people are even buying?
 

1-D_FE

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Oct 27, 2017
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Right, I understand how the first lighthouse works more or less, I just haven't read much into the documentation for the 2.0. k know it just uses a single rotor with offset instead. For me now it's just trying to figure out how to get this to happen with minimal financial impact. I'll be selling and moving over from the Oculus. My biggest sticking point on that has been cables and how annoying/frustrating it has been to use with glasses. Had to 3D print lens adapter etc as my glasses did not fit (They do in the Vive). So that will basically pay for the Vive after I also sell the 1070. Then later down the road when I get the Pimax, provided it's without serious issues, I'd sell the Vive. Problem then being I'd be trying to sell just the headset without controllers/lighthouse. Is that something people are even buying?

HTC replacement prices (for everything) are pretty obscene. So if you're into the whole ebay scene, I would assume there's a market for replacement HMDs without any of the accessories.
 

Durante

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Oct 24, 2017
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There is some news appropriate for this thread!
Logitech is working with HTC on using the Vive tracker for keyboard tracking, and combining it with camera data to provide hand overlays:
Logitech_G_Bridge_VR_Keyboard_Hands_A.gif


Pretty neat. Especially to be prepared for when we get native 2x4k and more HMDs which start to be suitable for work.
 
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Zalusithix

Zalusithix

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Oct 25, 2017
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There is some news appropriate for this thread!
Logitech is working with HTC on using the Vive tracker for keyboard tracking, and combining it with camera data to provide hand overlays:
Logitech_G_Bridge_VR_Keyboard_Hands_A.gif


Pretty neat. Especially to be prepared for when we get native 2x4k and more HMDs which start to be suitable for work.
If they get a consistently accurate virtual representation of the hands it'll be pretty impressive given that the Vive's middling camera provides no depth information. Would require pure image analysis to detect the hands from the background and then construct the skeletal positions. Also, given the camera is based on visible light, I wonder how dark the room can get before it fails. Having a bright room is kind of the opposite of what you want in VR as it's possible for the light to bleed in from the back or under the nose.

In the end it's a neat parlor trick, but not exactly something I'd personally need. Certainly not worth the cost of a tracker. If I'm sitting near my computer I can find my keyboard fine and type blindly, and if I'm not, I don't want it showing up in VR. Beyond that, I don't use a standard keyboard, so the model would be all sorts of wrong anyhow.
 

Durante

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Oct 24, 2017
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I assume that the image analysis is a bit easier if you know exactly what the keyboard looks like and where it is relative to the camera. It will of course still need good light.

Overall, I agree that in the current implementation it's more "neat" than "want", but ultimately when VR is work-ready I will want something like it so it's nice to see that they are at least investigating the possibilities.
 

Aztechnology

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I need my tactile feedback. One day we'll have glorious haptics for VR too though!