I'm starting to feel like we're delving into HL3 meme territories :)
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SteamVR Hardware|OT| Lighthouse Tracking 2.0 and Beyond
- Thread starter Zalusithix
- Start date
I don't think so. I mean, remember that before the Vive was announced we had people visiting Valve and talking in gushing terms about "nothing" :P
Hah. I was coming here to post this same thing! Here's a couple things I found interesting (and hadn't heard before). A lot of us have seen the "Holy shit" comment from Anton (Hotdogs fame). But there's a more indepth quote attributed to him:
- The Valve trip was incredible and though I really can't speak about pretty much anything I saw, the entire thing was really heartening. Seeing their commitment across both the software and hardware space, tackling both the 'BIG' problem spaces, and the little un-sexy api-level things that are going to be needed for the next 1/3/5 years, getting to see inside their thought process, as well as participate in a feedback process where it actually felt like those of us in the 'trenches' were actually being heard and considering was just… wonderful :-). They're an odd bunch those Valve peoples, up in their giant money-printing machine, but damn are they cool. Plus I still really wanted to steal that TF2 turret that Weta made for them….
- I cannot confirm nor deny that ;)
- I agree with Anton's reaction though. We saw the same thing.
So while it's a bag of nothing, it's also very heartening.
EDIT: Just went and looked at Anton's history a bit. This is his response when asked if Hotdogs had added support for the knuckles yet:
No, in part because the design of them isn't finalized, and in part because i don't intend to put hands in the game
So we can definitely end speculation that the knuckles code change signified any significance towards production models. If the design still is in progress, late 2018 is still an absolute best case scenario that probably shoudn't be counted on.
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For clarification, this was his response to my question "Are you under NDA regarding imminent knuckles-related announcement? ;)"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7hPurPG33vg
Tested has a review of the Vive Pro. Kind of re-enforces my hunch. It's a mild bump who's resolution "bump" quickly wears off. They both agree that the wireless adapter is going to be a lot more transformative upgrade and that's certainly the feeling I get.
Yeah. It's not much.
Tested has a review of the Vive Pro. Kind of re-enforces my hunch. It's a mild bump who's resolution "bump" quickly wears off. They both agree that the wireless adapter is going to be a lot more transformative upgrade and that's certainly the feeling I get.
Yeah. It's not much.
H3 absolutely needs hands -- at least in regards to using them as a control scheme; it's a huge part of why I'm setting VR aside for now until we get Knuckles... We need hands! I want to grab stuff, not press buttons!
And it led up to a relatively lukewarm release, at least in my opinion. The wireless devices were more interesting. With something like the knuckles controller which so many people have been waiting for patiently. You're think they'd want to drop some little nibbles of information prior to release. I mean wireless and controllers for the general user base are probably the two biggest things for immersion in the near future.
I'm in the same boat, I'm largely taking a hiatus from VR as I'm just not that big a fan of the current Vive wands and really want to come back and tackle some of my backlog once I get the Knuckle controllers and my Pimax. That is assuming that there's at least limited backwards functionality for current VR games. Which I imagine there would be. But generally just the comfort level for me would be vastly improved. Hell the jump for me from Oculus touch to Vive Wands felt like a pretty big step backwards in terms of ergonomics.
Surprisingly SkyrimVR has me really interested in the wireless solutions, for 2 years, I haven't had any real issues with the cord, but now suddenly it's bugging me every 2 minutes. But not holding my breath for a good price when the Vive branded one gets released.
Regarding Knuckles and Vive release for that matter, it could just be that Valve simply doesn't have a marketing department :)
Regarding Knuckles and Vive release for that matter, it could just be that Valve simply doesn't have a marketing department :)
The enthusiast VR sector is kind of small enough that I feel like word of mouth, eaoecially through Reddit and other gaming outlets would still be notable news for VR.
Welcome to my world. It's basically why I'm not even getting tempted by Skyrim (and I've only played like 2 hours in my life of that game). It's getting added to a long list of games I'll play when I can do it wirelessly. That wire makes me feel like a chained dog and Skyrim would drive me insane if I played it the way I wanted to. And it seems like I just get more and more intolerant of it. I haven't adapted at all (other than only wanting to play games that don't make me turn 360 degrees). I just hope it's priced a little less pro-ish.
Right now I'm just using a ceiling lanyard system. It's not wireless, but it's infinitely better than trailing cables on the floor.
I picked up a Vive Pro with 10% off from the Microsoft Store. My initial thoughts:
-Display is brighter, clearer and sharper. The Lab looked absolutely gorgeous. 3D effect is improved and objects in the distance actually have detail. SDE isn't gone but much improved and easier to forget about. Text is sooo much easier to read. It's like a film was removed or when you get a new prescription from the eye doctor.
-Overall fit is much improved. The swivel of the headset lets you find the proper angle on your face and the extra padding helps you lock down the sweet spot while remaining comfortable. It removes a lot of the pressure from my face. Being able to quickly adjust the lens distance from your eyes makes it a lot easier when trading off with someone who wears glasses.
-Headphones can play a lot louder than the DAS which didn't get loud enough at times but there is a serious issue with the bass. It's like there is a high pass filter in place. Supposedly HTC is aware and working on a firmware fix, but trying to play Audioshield was laughable. The addition of volume buttons so you don't have to back out to the menu is really nice.
Overall it's not an OMG experience like when you first picked up a headset, but the Pro fixes a lot of shortcomings of the original Vive. The longer I wore it the more I appreciated it.
-Display is brighter, clearer and sharper. The Lab looked absolutely gorgeous. 3D effect is improved and objects in the distance actually have detail. SDE isn't gone but much improved and easier to forget about. Text is sooo much easier to read. It's like a film was removed or when you get a new prescription from the eye doctor.
-Overall fit is much improved. The swivel of the headset lets you find the proper angle on your face and the extra padding helps you lock down the sweet spot while remaining comfortable. It removes a lot of the pressure from my face. Being able to quickly adjust the lens distance from your eyes makes it a lot easier when trading off with someone who wears glasses.
-Headphones can play a lot louder than the DAS which didn't get loud enough at times but there is a serious issue with the bass. It's like there is a high pass filter in place. Supposedly HTC is aware and working on a firmware fix, but trying to play Audioshield was laughable. The addition of volume buttons so you don't have to back out to the menu is really nice.
Overall it's not an OMG experience like when you first picked up a headset, but the Pro fixes a lot of shortcomings of the original Vive. The longer I wore it the more I appreciated it.
I'd maybe have considered it if it had improved the FOV dramatically and had come with an improved set of controllers of some kind. But $800, or $720+tax in your case I guess is just really hard to stomach for me. But thanks for the feedback!
I couldn't disagree more.
For me (as someone who followed pre-consumer VR from the DK1 kickstarter and with DK2) room-scale VR with tracked controllers on the Vive at launch was absolutely transformative.
Comparatively, the resolution-bump-only initial Oculus CV1 launch (over DK2) is what I'd characterize as "relatively lukewarm".
Wait are we taking about different things? I'm talking about the Vive Pro release specifically.
I kind of got the feeling people were quite put off by the price and features comparative to the first model.
Oh, then we are. I was referring to the original Vive reveal in the post you quoted.
(Remember we had some "strange" reports of people visiting Valve and "seeing the future" before that)
I don't think Valve has done much of any demonstrations or anything at all for Vive Pro.
But your posts makes much more sense if it's referring to that, the Vive Pro reception post-price-reveal is certainly lukewarm.
Oh no, the first Vive blew me away, especially as you said comparative to Oculus's release. Night and day.
I should jump ship from Oculus to Vive at some point, but I don't think the Vive Pro will be it. Maybe when Valve releases their new controllers, though.
Have you had any cables go bad? I saw a Reddit thread a while ago about some guy who kept going through cables and the consensus seemed to be that a pully system resulted in the cord getting even more twisted (which can obviously damage a cord over time).
No, but I haven't used my system so much that it would be likely to happen. I definitely do notice some twisting though. Hmmm. I guess yea, long term it wouldn't be suprising to see it start to cut out. Man I need that wireless solution they showed off already.
OP
OP
While there's aspects to be found wanting with the built in DAS headphones, volume isn't one of them. If you found them not loud enough at max volume with the software limiter disabled, then you're likely heading down a one way road to hearing loss and tinnitus (if you're not there already).
Edit: Just did a quick test, and registered peaks up to ~108dBA playing music with a loose coupling to the DAS headphones. That's loud enough to exceed the recommended safe exposure time to those levels before the average song would even be finished playing. With the software gain reduction enabled it was ~96dBA; still loud, but at least low enough that you'd be safe for shorter VR sessions.
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Thanks for the feedback. I'm definitely not playing anything at 108 dBA or anywhere near it. I'll have to check my settings.
I guess I should qualify we play a lot of Audioshield a lot and volume is dependent on the particular YouTube video.
Why would the pully system cause the cord to get twisted? I can see how it would damage the cable, but it could be worth the cost of a cable replacement (especially considering what I paid for my TPCast).
I don't know. I don't have the ability to construct a pully system, but conceptually it seems like a great way to go.
TBH I recall it being lukewarm at CES too. "A nice upgrade but not a huge one". More positive overall I guess, but people were reasonably assuming that minor upgrades upgrades wouldn't come with huge price increases.
Going wireless was a huge upgrade to VR for me. Being able to jump and spin around and make sudden movements in games without having to worry about getting tangled or tripped up or stepping on the wire was a huge boost to immersion. Putting on my PSVR makes me feel shackled now. A significant resolution bump is the only thing I can think of that would be as significant of an upgrade to the experience.
damn it... TPcast just recently got a 1000 SEK discount at a retailer here... Seriously considering it now. I'll try to hold out to see more impressions on the Vive/Intel wireless solution, and how TPcast responds... but damn is it tempting.
Well better motion controllers and a wider FOV certainly seem like obvious upgrades as well, at least to me :D.
After wireless the thing I'd like to see the most is eye-tracking. Honestly, much wider FoV without using eye tracking will probably be both flawed and really expensive.
yeah, foveated rendering with eye tracking will be a game changer when it comes to fidelity for VR I think. Thought it feels like it's still too far off.
Eye-tracking is taking longer to achieve than might have been hoped for a year or two ago (edit: eye-tracking precision/stability needed for foveated rendering that is, eye-tracking for software design implementations & automatic ipd measurement is good enough).
Wireless for Vive (but not for Optical inside-out tracking ala Windows VR as it requires both in-and-out video signals...) will see some very nice quality-of-life iterations & cheaper prices within the next two years.
Wireless for Vive (but not for Optical inside-out tracking ala Windows VR as it requires both in-and-out video signals...) will see some very nice quality-of-life iterations & cheaper prices within the next two years.
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This reminded me to check how Fove was doing with their HMD, haven't read up on them in a long time. Apparently they're still going, but they still don't have full SteamVR (driver) support, as it's in Beta. might be time to do a deep dive and read articles/watch some impression videos, to see how it's evolved from 3 years ago.
I also don't recall any mention of Eye Tracking with regards to OpenXR, anyone recall if it's in there? Google-fu is failing me in that regard right now.
I also don't recall any mention of Eye Tracking with regards to OpenXR, anyone recall if it's in there? Google-fu is failing me in that regard right now.
Didn't Apple buy one of the big eye tracking players?
Qualcomm recently teamed up with Tobii and is including eye tracking as part of their next gen reference design.
I honestly don't expect any next gen HMD to ship without eye tracking (Even a little suprised GO skipped it... although I guess it hitting 199.99 took precedence over everything else.) Whether or not it has robust foveated rendering is besides the point. Eye tracking is fairly cheap to implement and its importance is too great for many applications.
Qualcomm recently teamed up with Tobii and is including eye tracking as part of their next gen reference design.
I honestly don't expect any next gen HMD to ship without eye tracking (Even a little suprised GO skipped it... although I guess it hitting 199.99 took precedence over everything else.) Whether or not it has robust foveated rendering is besides the point. Eye tracking is fairly cheap to implement and its importance is too great for many applications.
Last year I would have advised to go ahead and get it, but at this point I'd say wait for the Intel solution. As happy as I am with the final result of TPCast, it took a lot of configuring on my point for setup. it's still very beta hardware that requires you to flash an SD card with unofficial software and replace the default card just to get microphone functionality back. The fact that they already announced and demoed a "2.0" version (quotations because it seems worse in some ways) without updating the first shows they don't really care about support either. Listening to impressions about the Intel one, that will be a more solid solution that (more importantly) should have room to scale to higher resolutions down the line.
Better FoV would be great, but I don't think it will be as game changing as wireless and higher resolutions. The current FoV of the Vive is noticeable but doesn't hinder me in any games the way being tethered and unable to see things clearly in the distance does. Eye tracking will be great too, but mostly for social stuff even though I can think of some cool gameplay possibilities that could allow (and foveated rendering of course, but I count that in the "means to a resolution bump" category). Now new motion controllers like Knuckles on the other hand, that could be game changing. I'm super excited for those.
Is it though? I think there already are a few solutions like Tobii that are already out there and work well. They're just not built in to a headset yet since we're not at a true gen 2 yet.
EDIT: Just saw your edit lol. That seems to be coming along too as expected. I think that Michael Abrash talk estimating when we'd see new VR tech put it at 5 years out (that was maybe 3 years ago?). Not that his estimates were perfect. IIRC he didn't think we'd have a workable wireless solution this quick.
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Yeah. This is why I'm waiting for the Intel/DisplayPort solution despite hating the cables. It just seems way too finicky for my tastes when a little patience will get me where I want to go.
Ha thanks. I'm sounding more and more like my parents the older I get....
I finally got to try out Skyrim VR yesterday. Swords suck, but everything else is great. Magic and bows are awesome
Its also just crazy to be in a world and know how huge it is and how much there is to do.
I hope its possible to mod in some other locomotion options too, I'd like to try the arm swinging one like LA Noire in here as its super immersive.
Its also just crazy to be in a world and know how huge it is and how much there is to do.
I hope its possible to mod in some other locomotion options too, I'd like to try the arm swinging one like LA Noire in here as its super immersive.
Patent filings for the Knuckles are online with lots of drawings etc:
Patent page
Imgur album with the descriptions paired with the drawings
Half the drawings look like the prototypes we've seen before but the other half are little different and include A/B buttons along with an analog stick. Probably just the patent being thorough but I hope the analog stick is on the table for the final design.
Patent page
Imgur album with the descriptions paired with the drawings
Half the drawings look like the prototypes we've seen before but the other half are little different and include A/B buttons along with an analog stick. Probably just the patent being thorough but I hope the analog stick is on the table for the final design.
I think if they went with something like this, it would be for both hands. Or at least they'd have a version for both. They just didn't show a flipped version for the drawings. What I'm curious about is if that large circle in between the stick and A/B buttons is supposed to be a small track pad or a replacement for the touch pad button or what. There's no detail description for it but there isn't for that other one in the bottom right that's obviously supposed to be a menu or system button.
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Patent filings for the Knuckles are online with lots of drawings etc:
Patent page
Imgur album with the descriptions paired with the drawings
Half the drawings look like the prototypes we've seen before but the other half are little different and include A/B buttons along with an analog stick. Probably just the patent being thorough but I hope the analog stick is on the table for the final design.
At least we are getting an update
Forgot to mention that I think that Knuckles patent describes grip pressure functionality which is pretty cool. Not sure if we knew that before.
Seems official pricing for Vive Pro with SteamVR2.0 tracking is $1399:
https://www.amazon.com/HTC-VIVE-Virtual-Reality-System-PC/dp/B07B9WPR7G/?th=1
The listing looks official from what I gather, which begs the question, what the hell was the whole release the Vive Pro HMD stand alone even about, if the tracking 2.0 bundle was coming in less than a month anyway? And what was the Accessories bundle pack that had the stand alone HMD plus the tracking 1.0 at $1369 about if a few weeks later the Tracking 2.0 full bundle is out? Shit, I'd be pissed if I'd gotten the accessories bundle with the 1.0 tracking already.
I can't make sense of the marketing, the pricing, the timing... someone help me out here?
https://www.amazon.com/HTC-VIVE-Virtual-Reality-System-PC/dp/B07B9WPR7G/?th=1
The listing looks official from what I gather, which begs the question, what the hell was the whole release the Vive Pro HMD stand alone even about, if the tracking 2.0 bundle was coming in less than a month anyway? And what was the Accessories bundle pack that had the stand alone HMD plus the tracking 1.0 at $1369 about if a few weeks later the Tracking 2.0 full bundle is out? Shit, I'd be pissed if I'd gotten the accessories bundle with the 1.0 tracking already.
I can't make sense of the marketing, the pricing, the timing... someone help me out here?
We can't say for certain, but I'd guess they're slowly ramping up production while trying to maximize profits per unit sold, starting with the most important piece first. Seems pretty straighforward and clear to me. So, basically...
