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KNZFive

Member
Oct 28, 2017
2,756
I think the big thing for me is that White spent most of her showtime this episode literally erasing the identities of everyone we care about and at no point actually apologized or expressed any regret for doing that. Having her just turn around and be bashful and nice after doing something so truly, truly awful kind of jumps the borderline from well-meaning to straight-up naive.

If White is supposed to represent a toxic family member who fights tooth and nail against accepting a trans person for who they are - and I think the subtext there is so blatant it might as well be broadcast via a concert of loudspeakers - having her just get over it and become "nice mom" feels like the kind of message that, while well-intentioned and sweet, doesn't really feel like a logical way to end that character's arc AND doesn't really reflect the realities of these kinds of situations when they happen with real people.
It's possible that they deal with White's horrible actions through Pink Pearl, and whatever role she takes in the show. If they suddenly have Pink Pearl be ok with still being White's servant after having her mind erased for millennia, that's a huge problem. Pink Pearl should want to get as far away from White Diamond as possible. I wouldn't even be surprised if Pink Pearl ends up becoming an antagonist as she tries to take revenge on the Diamonds (probably as part of the separatist army). Then Steven will have to deal with a foe who has a really damn good reason to be opposed to him and the Diamonds.
 
Mar 9, 2018
3,766
I think the family framing felt like it was too strong and the themes and characters lost out because of it. The dynamic is part of it, sure, and it's somewhat interesting, but the Diamonds aren't just Steven's family: they are intergalactic dictators who are responsible for killing gems for reasons as compelling as "you look different" or "you love different". It feels like framing the Diamond issue as a family affair sort of skimmed over the very many bad things they've done to so many gems that weren't lucky enough to be a part of their "family".
 

Dwebble

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
9,623
I didn't get "nice mum" from White's body language in the final scenes at all. I got profound discomfort and unease, with maybe a bit of begrudging satisfaction when she shared that smile with Steven.

I'd be astonished if we were done with White, in any case.
 

PlanetSmasher

The Abominable Showman
Member
Oct 25, 2017
115,484
I think the family framing felt like it was too strong and the themes and characters lost out because of it. The dynamic is part of it, sure, and it's somewhat interesting, but the Diamonds aren't just Steven's family: they are intergalactic dictators who are responsible for killing gems for reasons as compelling as "you look different" or "you love different". It feels like framing the Diamond issue as a family affair sort of skimmed over the very many bad things they've done to so many gems that weren't lucky enough to be a part of their "family".

Exactly. The Diamonds have been doing these things for thousands of years and have ended millions of lives, both gem and non-gem alike, in the pursuit of their goals.

It's not like Steven was talking someone down from a recent heel turn: these are people who have been villains for millenia and their actions shouldn't be papered over like they never happened. The Corrupted Gems being forced to live for the rest of their healed lives with physical signs of their trauma signifies this, and I just wish the season ended with a more clear acknowledgement of the fact things aren't over yet.
 

Z-Beat

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
31,836
That's honestly the truth of it. Since this ISN'T the series finale, it's okay, but if it was the endgame I'd be pretty damn annoyed by the way they handled it.

Yellow's slow turn, with all its stops and stumbles and backslides, feels far more believable than White going from "YOU'RE NOT WHO YOU SAY YOU ARE AND I'LL PROVE IT" to "bashful nice mom" in a matter of minutes. Hopefully the next few episodes we get at least touch on White grappling with her new self-image and the world she's hidden herself from for so long.
Yellow's worked because there was something to bring out of her. It was established early on that she's suppressing everything. White's issue was that she believed her direct approach could fix anything. We never actually address that beyond its establishment, just her specific issues with Pink
 

RockmanBN

Visited by Knack - One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
27,940
Cornfields
Yeah I just don't get how they can hand wave the amount of lives they've eliminated when conquering and terraforming all those planets.
 

PSqueak

Member
Oct 25, 2017
12,464
speaking of peri:


and now I'm going to be mad disappointed if this doesn't come to pass


well, only because a fan made it first, but technically speaking, they could if they made Lars Harlock, this wouldn't be too out there.

Yeah I just don't get how they can hand wave the amount of lives they've eliminated when conquering and terraforming all those planets.

Steven's mission was 2 things:

A) Protect Earth
B)Uncorrupt the Gems stranded on Earth

Right now that's the only thing they solved, it was never meant to be "let's stop homeworld once and for all", you gotta cut them some slack, they dealt with what they had the urgency to deal with for now, it's not like the Diamonds are redeemed and are good now, it just means there is a cease fire on earth and now homeworld and earth are at peace.
 
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nopressure

Member
Oct 28, 2017
1,414
I enjoyed the finale, though I'd have liked more fleshing out to the discussions between Steven/Yellow and Steven/White.

It felt like the finale was full of metaphors about LGBT experiences; particularly about becoming comfortable with and loving themselves and the ignorance they will encounter in family and friends. From Blue (her bewilderment to him being "Steven" and fusing all the time) to Yellow (anger at breaking societal expectations and breaking the family up with her picking up the pieces) to White (denial of him being "Steven" and attacking his personality and character when he won't budge) to Steven (realising he is truly "Steven" and only "Steven" when separated from his gem) to the final song "Change your mind" (loving yourself and being at peace with the fact someone who should care and accept you cannot at this present time).
 

zulux21

Member
Oct 25, 2017
20,343
So if Estelle becomes to expensive or to busy to continue doing Garnet would people prefer that
A. Garnet gets a new voice actor
B. Garnet gets sent off on a mission and rarely ever seen again
C. Garnet is shattered to kick off the next season starting with a huge scary moment.
 

zulux21

Member
Oct 25, 2017
20,343
What is it with you people and shattering, honest to god
Gems shattering is interesting to watch


the above video obviously gets into spoilers for the series, but the first bit is from the first episode.
It's an interesting show about gems that avoids most of the anime tropes (most not all, but I imagine most people who like SU don't mind some anime in their shows :P)
 

Z-Beat

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
31,836
So if Estelle becomes to expensive or to busy to continue doing Garnet would people prefer that
A. Garnet gets a new voice actor
B. Garnet gets sent off on a mission and rarely ever seen again
C. Garnet is shattered to kick off the next season starting with a huge scary moment.
Garnet being the primary LGBTQ+ relationship in the show as well as a fan favorite means shattering her would bode poorly. If anyone is getting Shattered it's Bismuth because irony
 

zulux21

Member
Oct 25, 2017
20,343
Garnet being the primary LGBTQ+ relationship in the show as well as a fan favorite means shattering her would bode poorly. If anyone is getting Shattered it's Bismuth because irony
Peridot + Lapis could take over the primary LGBTQ+ role, and unlike Garnet's character arc which has mostly come to an end, Peridot + Lapis could continue to evolve their relationship on screen.

Obviously it would be better if both relationships were on screen, but I was talking strictly in the case of the voice actress being unable to continue, not merely shattering for the sake of shattering. Obviously if she can continue voicing Garnet, Garnet should stick around.

As for Bismuth getting shattered, I guess that could be okay. Just something terrifying showing up and shattering her to assert their power. But she really hasn't been around enough for me to really care if she is written off or not.
 

PlanetSmasher

The Abominable Showman
Member
Oct 25, 2017
115,484
So if Estelle becomes to expensive or to busy to continue doing Garnet would people prefer that
A. Garnet gets a new voice actor
B. Garnet gets sent off on a mission and rarely ever seen again
C. Garnet is shattered to kick off the next season starting with a huge scary moment.

I imagine Estelle would make time to keep recording. The show always records/does pre-work on episodes LONG before they're actually released and they can easily work around her schedule.
 

DongBeetle

Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,017
Whether she wanted to or not, she made irredeemable characters anyway. And that they were "redeemed" anyway was a bad choice IMO. I think after watching the finale again, the spectacle has worn off for me. I still appreciate a lot of the ideas but I'm increasingly disappointed that the Diamonds were "redeemed" at all, that they were "redeemed" in that way and so quickly after upholding that lifestyle for thousands of years....sigh.
The diamond conflict could've used another season. But yes the whole "Steven talks to a tyrant for three minutes and suddenly they change their mind about everything they've done for thousands of years" bullshit was very exhausting.
 

KNZFive

Member
Oct 28, 2017
2,756
Turns out the April 2017 date for the final mixing for Change Your Mind was a typo. It was actually April 2018.

Source: Joe Johnston's Tumblr

On a related note, Joe Johnston is answering a bunch of questions right now on his Tumblr, and he mentioned that there will be an official SU podcast episode out this week with Rebecca Sugar on it talking about Change Your Mind.
 

Mewzard

Member
Feb 4, 2018
3,440
So if Estelle becomes to expensive or to busy to continue doing Garnet would people prefer that
A. Garnet gets a new voice actor
B. Garnet gets sent off on a mission and rarely ever seen again
C. Garnet is shattered to kick off the next season starting with a huge scary moment.

Or maybe just let Ruby and Sapphire be unfused for a bit, whether it be for action, romance, or comedic moments. She can be back when Estelle would be available. No need to murder, vanish, or change Garnet's voice.
 

Z-Beat

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
31,836
White's comments on the Crystal Gems flaws might've held more weight had we not spent the entire show helping them get over them. If this had been mid season 1 she would've been absolutely right. But now it just seems like a late observation
 

Razmos

Unshakeable One Winged Slayer
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Oct 28, 2017
15,890
White's comments on the Crystal Gems flaws might've held more weight had we not spent the entire show helping them get over them. If this had been mid season 1 she would've been absolutely right. But now it just seems like a late observation
I suppose she doesn't see flaws as something that can be fixed though, only overwritten with her perfection or destroyed.
She doesn't understand the idea of overcoming flaws
 

Z-Beat

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
31,836
I suppose she doesn't see flaws as something that can be fixed though, only overwritten with her perfection or destroyed.
She doesn't understand the idea of overcoming flaws
I think she does based on whatever happened to pink pearl. She didn't view their flaws as fixed, more that Steven had made them worse, and that her overriding their personalities cured them of it
 

Kino

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,317
White's comments on the Crystal Gems flaws might've held more weight had we not spent the entire show helping them get over them. If this had been mid season 1 she would've been absolutely right. But now it just seems like a late observation
Yeah, but I felt like that whole scene was interesting in the way that white knew things that she shouldn't. Aside from her reads on the crystal gems, how exactly did she know Steven was having flashbacks of his mom's memories? Pearl made a point of saying that White isn't like any of the other gems but we didn't get to see how.
Frankly, I felt like this whole Diamond Days arc was weak because, once again, Steven didn't ask any questions so we don't get any answers until much later in the story,
 

Z-Beat

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
31,836
Yeah, but I felt like that whole scene was interesting in the way that white knew things that she shouldn't. Aside from her reads on the crystal gems, how exactly did she know Steven was having flashbacks of his mom's memories? Pearl made a point of saying that White isn't like any of the other gems but we didn't get to see how.
Frankly, I felt like this whole Diamond Days arc was weak because, once again, Steven didn't ask any questions so we don't get any answers until much later in the story,
I think she knew because she was doing more than puppeteering them, she was assimilating them. She said that it spread her thin to do so, so I'm assuming White functions as a hivemind when she's doing thay
 

Berordn

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 26, 2017
9,739
NoVA
I think the biggest issue with the whole thing was that we just never had enough time with White to really understand her views. She clearly has a complex of some sort and thinks everything serves a singular, unchanging purpose... and like most gems, seems to think that nothing is capable of true change, but she just kinda gets over it in a few seconds.

There's so many unanswered questions about her specifically that make it hard to really look back on her goals and her abilities and why the ending feels kinda... unearned. Everything else makes some sense, Blue and Yellow feel like they earned the end of their arcs, but White's feels like it was just beginning.
 
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Morlas

Morlas

Looking for a better cartoon show.
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Oct 25, 2017
72,740
they probably don't need that much of Estelle's time since Garnet doesn't talk much even if she's got a more upbeat attitude now.
 

Berordn

One Winged Slayer
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Oct 26, 2017
9,739
NoVA
Physical signs of their trauma? Did I miss something?
All the restored gems had some element of their corrupted forms. Jasper has her old form back for instance, but still has spots of green and horns, and several of the other former Quartz beasts do too.

Easy plot hook for Steven to help them come to terms with what's happened, if they wanted to.
 

PSqueak

Member
Oct 25, 2017
12,464
So if Estelle becomes to expensive or to busy to continue doing Garnet would people prefer that
A. Garnet gets a new voice actor
B. Garnet gets sent off on a mission and rarely ever seen again
C. Garnet is shattered to kick off the next season starting with a huge scary moment.

All of these are bad ideas, ideally we go back to "rarely ever speaks Garnet" from earlier seasons.
 
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Morlas

Morlas

Looking for a better cartoon show.
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Oct 25, 2017
72,740
couldn't Estelle record her Garnet lines in her own studio lol?
 

John Doe

Avenger
Jan 24, 2018
3,443
They are not completely healed. Jasper for example still had green horns.

Oh I saw that but I just glossed over. Thanks to you and Berordn

As for the ongoing discussion on how quickly the Diamonds were redeemed. To be fair all of the gem personality changes are unrealistic purely going by the lifespan of a gem and how old everyone is (except Amethyst).

Gems live for thousands of years or millennia in the case of Diamonds. They have been set in their ways for at a minimum, multiple centuries.

A year should be to them what an hour is to us. Yet Steven manages to break down their biases and change them within a few hours, days, months (Peridot) or years.

Think about how set in our ways we as humans are and how long it takes one of us to change our minds on something or accept something we previously refused to.

I mean realistically speaking if someone in real life had gone through what Lapis did or Blue and Yellow, they would need years and years of therapy to get over it and that is just a normal human. When you add on the thousands of years Lapis was trapped and the Diamonds were grieving over Pink. Yeah, the time it took them to do an about-face was much too short

Its just something that we have to accept with the show and things will progress quickly because the makers can't afford to have redemption arcs span the length of time they need to
 

TheOGB

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
9,989
So if Estelle becomes to expensive or to busy to continue doing Garnet would people prefer that
A. Garnet gets a new voice actor
B. Garnet gets sent off on a mission and rarely ever seen again
C. Garnet is shattered to kick off the next season starting with a huge scary moment.
D. No
 
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Morlas

Morlas

Looking for a better cartoon show.
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Oct 25, 2017
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D. Garnet goes to homeworld for a few months to teach fusion 101
 

Kino

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,317
Oh I saw that but I just glossed over. Thanks to you and Berordn

As for the ongoing discussion on how quickly the Diamonds were redeemed. To be fair all of the gem personality changes are unrealistic purely going by the lifespan of a gem and how old everyone is (except Amethyst).

Gems live for thousands of years or millennia in the case of Diamonds. They have been set in their ways for at a minimum, multiple centuries.

A year should be to them what an hour is to us. Yet Steven manages to break down their biases and change them within a few hours, days, months (Peridot) or years.

Think about how set in our ways we as humans are and how long it takes one of us to change our minds on something or accept something we previously refused to.

I mean realistically speaking if someone in real life had gone through what Lapis did or Blue and Yellow, they would need years and years of therapy to get over it and that is just a normal human. When you add on the thousands of years Lapis was trapped and the Diamonds were grieving over Pink. Yeah, the time it took them to do an about-face was much too short

Its just something that we have to accept with the show and things will progress quickly because the makers can't afford to have redemption arcs span the length of time they need to
The show has done redemption arcs before and nobody was bothered because it managed to happen organically without feeling rushed. Peridot and Lars both got good arcs. Pearl during got a redemption arc that was done exceptionally well. I don't think it's fair to say we just have to accept it when the show has done better in the past.
 

Berordn

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 26, 2017
9,739
NoVA
The show has done redemption arcs before and nobody was bothered because it managed to happen organically without feeling rushed. Peridot and Lars both got good arcs. Pearl during got a redemption arc that was done exceptionally well. I don't think it's fair to say we just have to accept it when the show has done better in the past.
Right, even Yellow and Blue were somewhat excusable because we got some insight on how the two of them felt about their own duties, the loss of Pink and even the corrupted gems. Seeing how overjoyed Blue was that Pink wasn't shattered after all makes sense because of what we got to see in her visits to Earth and on the Zoo, and we got a sense about why Yellow does what she does and how much she's been repressing as far back as Season 4.

White... just happens. The only real hint we have about her nature is in the (former) Pink Pearl, and that's as far as we go. White's redemption feels forced because we don't really get a sense of who she was before or after, and from what little we do know about her, she seems like a horrific and irredeemable monster.

I get that they were trying to keep her a bit mysterious, but a slice of life episode about life on Homeworld under White's rule would've gone a long way.
 

John Doe

Avenger
Jan 24, 2018
3,443
The show has done redemption arcs before and nobody was bothered because it managed to happen organically without feeling rushed. Peridot and Lars both got good arcs. Pearl during got a redemption arc that was done exceptionally well. I don't think it's fair to say we just have to accept it when the show has done better in the past.

I'm trying to say that even though it doesn't feel like it, every single gem redemption arc has been rushed based on the gems' lifespans.

Peridot is an era 2 Peridot so she's not as old as the Crystal Gems. I'll be generous and say she's 400-500 years old.

Peridot has been Peridot for 500 years and within a few months to a year of being on Earth, her personality does a complete 180. That isn't realistic. The length of time it took for her to change isn't commensurate with how long she was the way she was. It would be like if a 35 year old man went through a redemption arc within a couple of hours.

The show just can't devote multiple years to Peridot's redemption so they did what they did. It is what it is. Sure we get reasons for why the redemption takes place. The show just can't portray said redemption in a realistic length of time.
 
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Morlas

Morlas

Looking for a better cartoon show.
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Oct 25, 2017
72,740
I found it interesting that White unlike all other homeworld gems knew about traditional family roles and what a kid was...hmm I guess she implemented rules that prevented other gems from studying organic biology and sociology?
 

Witness000

Member
Oct 28, 2017
196
Toronto
Is there going to be a shounen timeskip/power creep situation here so that the Crystal Gems are on par with the Diamonds? Otherwise they're still pretty beast, especially White Diamond.
 
Weirdly enough I don't find how fast some gems are "converted" to be that strange. IMO it's more an example of how static and unchanging gem culture is due to repression. It doesn't take long for a gem to have their mind expanded once they contact other cultures and connect with different kinds of beings.

Plus we did see, via Yellow Diamond's breakdown, how unhappy and repressed gems are. While Peridot did seem satisfied with being a pushy technician, one would presume that lots of gems are unhappy but don't know how to express that feeling. Or know why they're unhappy.

I found it interesting that White unlike all other homeworld gems knew about traditional family roles and what a kid was...hmm I guess she implemented rules that prevented other gems from studying organic biology and sociology?

I have a theory that White Diamond was the "seed" that created other gems and from them gem civilization, and she previously had experience with other cultures and forms of life in the universe before deciding to make her "perfect empire". One might assume that in the interest of "perfection" she decided gems only needed to know that which was required for them to perform their functions. And she might very well have known of the corrupting influence other forms of life might have on naive gems who interacted with them.
 

ASaiyan

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,228
So, the one thing that's still bothering me after that finale is Pink Pearl. Like, what is the deal there? If that was Pink Pearl all along, then who's our Pearl? Blue and Yellow Pearl recognize her. Is she White Pearl after all?

This is like the "What happened to Zuko's mom" loose end of the show right now, lol.

EDIT: And what happened to her eye? Now that's some unsettling backstory.
 

TheOGB

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
9,989
So, the one thing that's still bothering me after that finale is Pink Pearl. Like, what is the deal there? If that was Pink Pearl all along, then who's our Pearl? Blue and Yellow Pearl recognize her. Is she White Pearl after all?

This is like the "What happened to Zuko's mom" loose end of the show right now, lol.

EDIT: And what happened to her eye? Now that's some unsettling backstory.
I think there's still a solid chance CG Pearl was originally White's Pearl, and could be unknowingly used for surveilance. Would explain why White knew some things she seemingly shouldn't.
 

zulux21

Member
Oct 25, 2017
20,343
So, the one thing that's still bothering me after that finale is Pink Pearl. Like, what is the deal there? If that was Pink Pearl all along, then who's our Pearl? Blue and Yellow Pearl recognize her. Is she White Pearl after all?

This is like the "What happened to Zuko's mom" loose end of the show right now, lol.

EDIT: And what happened to her eye? Now that's some unsettling backstory.
what happened to Zuko's mom?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avatar:_The_Last_Airbender_–_The_Search

:P

there are comics for that :3
 

ASaiyan

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,228
I think there's still a solid chance CG Pearl was originally White's Pearl, and could be unknowingly used for surveilance. Would explain why White knew some things she seemingly shouldn't.
When it came to the fan theorizing I was always Team White Pearl. Then when the big Pink Diamond reveal happened I conceded defeat to Team Pink Pearl. But now...Team White Pearl rides again???
I know, and I read them. But spinoff media released years after the end of your show is not how you resolve a cliffhanger! :P

They even referenced it at the beginning of Korra just to troll people. Not cool y'all.
 

zulux21

Member
Oct 25, 2017
20,343
When it came to the fan theorizing I was always Team White Pearl. Then when the big Pink Diamond reveal happened I conceded defeat to Team Pink Pearl. But now...Team White Pearl rides again???

I know, and I read them. But spinoff media released years after the end of your show is not how you resolve a cliffhanger! :P

They even referenced it at the beginning of Korra just to troll people. Not cool y'all.
fair, but it will likely be addressed in season 6.
if not I'm sure it will pop up in an AMA.
 

Kino

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,317
fair, but it will likely be addressed in season 6.
if not I'm sure it will pop up in an AMA.
CG Pearl being White's original is a pretty big thing to relegate to an AMA. Actually it's a pretty big thing to leave unaddressed this far into the show. You'd think something like that would have been revealed during the Heart of the Crystal Gems bomb.
 
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Morlas

Morlas

Looking for a better cartoon show.
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Oct 25, 2017
72,740
Well there's also a chance that Crystal gem pearl was made as Pink's second pearl after White presumably decided that Pink needed a more responsible pearl. CG Pearl is unlike the other diamonds pearls in that she isn't only one primary color after all.
 
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