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Lentic

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,835
I think cheating is wrong, shouldn't do it, if you do you don't deserve a scarlet letter. That's in reference to the threads premise which has nothing to do with the people cheated on. As I said it's happened to me. I'm still not going to judge the cheater, which again was the premise of the thread.
The thread is about not defending cheating, which is a pretty solid stance.

But same as I am not willing to brand the cheater
You already have.

I am not ready to label everyone cheated on as blameless victims either. Not everyone is.
By definition, they are victims. Any attempt to try and find scenarios where they are not "blameless" is just victim blaming.

Could you give an example where the victim isn't blameless?
 

Deleted member 25606

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 29, 2017
8,973
The thread is about not defending cheating, which is a pretty solid stance.


You already have.


By definition, they are victims. Any attempt to try and find scenarios where they are not "blameless" is just victim blaming.

Could you give an example where the victim isn't blameless?
No I am not going to round and round argue with people who obviously believe in their own moral absolutism. That's not the way the real world works and I honestly hope none of you ever get in situation to get as harshly judged as your willing to do to others.
 

Roy

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,471
Inspired by the ProJared getting busted thread and the comments that seemed to handwave cheating away because of lazy arguments like "lol relationships are complicated", or "cHEatINg hAs nUaNcE."

Well yeah, no shit. Relationships between two people will always be complicated (we are human beings after all), but that is not an excuse to go behind your significant other's back to go chase temporary pleasure. If you lack the common courtesy to break things off, then as far as I'm concerned, you are a majorly selfish asshole.

But there isn't any nuance to cheating. It's about as black and white as it can get. Defending cheating on the pretense of relationships being complicated makes you look very inconsiderate as per the title. Why? Because you're defending someone's ability to chase temporary pleasure, and completely ignoring the ramifications of that action on the significant other. Such ramifications include:

- Insecurity: I mean duh, that person's actions are basically screaming "I don't find you desirable that I would rather go behind your back to get what I need, than talk to you like an adult." The person who got cheated on is not going to be the same, and that will have a ripple effect on dating other people. They might be less trusting of people, jaded, have so much self-esteem issues related to their physical beauty or how they are in a relationship. And yet, idiots are quick to talk about how bad it is for the cheater and ignoring how their selfishness has gotten them to this point.

- Communication problems: Cheating doesn't magically solve how you address issues, if you're willing to go behind someone's back for something like cheating, then how are you going to address other issues. And that's before bringing up stuff like being manipulative, or having the tendency to view people as objects for your own pleasure.

It's time for people to stop defending cheating.
Yep that selfish girl who got coerced into a child marriage at 13 needs to go back to her 55yr old husband because the circumstances of marriage are always black and white.
 

Biggersmaller

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
4,966
Minneapolis
I've cheated and I've been cheated on. At the time is was as if you were either betrayed and humiliated in the very worst possible way - or Hitler. Now that I've been married 10 years and have a few kids, my wife and I chuckle at our early 20s and how much emotional energy we spent on relationships that lasted less than one year.

No matter the place in life, cheating is almost always a symptom of an already shitty relationship. Couples can otherwise maturely recover from it and move on.
 

Wackamole

Member
Oct 27, 2017
16,931
Divorce can destroy a person, too. Should we ban it? Should we "cancel" people who divorce? Are you from the Bible belt?
Did you read anything i said?
Comprehensive reading on this forum is seriously bad.

Edit: for the record, since you won't be reading anything: no i'm not. i think religion is mostly terribly inhumane.
It's religion that PREVENTS people from divorcing often times. People should always be able to end a relationship that doesn't work for them.

I have no idea what you are on about though.
 
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Wackamole

Member
Oct 27, 2017
16,931
What is it with people pulling out the most extreme scenarios?
It's because the original Post covers every instance. So it's fair then for people to come up with examples. This is an international forum. Not just american.
Even if that would be the case, it's still intensely judgemental and silly, but it would help if the OP had some framework about what kind of relationshsips we're talking about here. You can't expect everyone to just assume it's about a really specific type of relationship. If the Op was better worded i'm sure most people would agree.
 

blakeseven

Member
Apr 9, 2018
666
Just because it's outside the scope of forum dwelling video game nerds doesn't make it "extreme" or "edge case" or "rare" or whatever else you privileged lot like to think while you're sitting atop that high horse. Not to mention that this is some blatant goal post moving.
 

Wackamole

Member
Oct 27, 2017
16,931
Sure, I'm an idiot if I don't agree with you. Let's cancel people for common human flaws. Thank you for wasting my time.
Nono no.. what are you on about man? I'm a reasonable person. I have no idea why you are even attacking me. I'm pretty sure we agree. Read my posts.
What don't you agree with? You constantly just pick one sentence from my posts....

I NEVER said the bolded in any way. READ!

I think you might have misread what i said. Seriously.
 
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Lentic

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,835
Thousands of minors get married every year in the US alone. Yeah let's discard all of that because there's some moral snobbery which needs to be spread across the land.
You can find exceptions to everything. The statement that cheating shouldn't be defended is nothing controversial, yet the way people are tripping over themselves to poke holes through it is something to behold. I guess we can never speak in absolutes ever.
 

Cantona222

Chicken Chaser
Member
Oct 30, 2017
1,136
Kuwait
I totally agree that cheating shouldn't be defended but I want to add one thing.

For me I see strong relationships/marriage = strong society. In order to have a strong positive society then children should live with stable parents. We know that cheating will negate that so that's why we should not defend it or excuse it. However, we also shouldn't defend or excuse open relationships for the same reasons.
 

Zen

The Wise Ones
Member
Nov 1, 2017
9,656
Or maybe they are focused on finding love or excitement? Would that make them morally repugnant humans then? There's no "equivalency" at play here - the fact of the matter is infidelity is a complex topic that can't be covered by absolute statements like "it's bad black and white no matter what ever". Real world doesn't work like this. This is not a maturity "ploy" it's literally what gaining experience and perspective in life means.
Never said it isn't a complex topic. You've just side stepped my post and made up a narrative that I'm screaming black or white.
 

HiredN00bs

Member
Oct 25, 2017
823
Laurel, MD
Personally I could never do that, because that line was crossed and I will forever be questioning the significant other's motives and trust. And that's not a healthy place for me to be so I would rather just move on.

Frankly, I really don't understand how anyone could stay with someone who crossed that line. And part of me thinks it's because people have the tendency to be afraid of being single that they'd rather stay with someone, even if they're a crap person for what they have done.
How old are you, OP?

I totally agree that cheating shouldn't be defended but I want to add one thing.

For me I see strong relationships/marriage = strong society. In order to have a strong positive society then children should live with stable parents. We know that cheating will negate that so that's why we should not defend it or excuse it. However, we also shouldn't defend or excuse open relationships for the same reasons.
Why not? Are these not consensual relationships? This seems like some conservative hogwash.

You can find exceptions to everything. The statement that cheating shouldn't be defended is nothing controversial, yet the way people are tripping over themselves to poke holes through it is something to behold. I guess we can never speak in absolutes ever.
Cheating is absolutely harmful, but people aren't just claiming that, they're going on to simplify why cheating happens, and how people should respond to it.
 
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phonicjoy

Banned
Jun 19, 2018
4,305
The thread is about not defending cheating, which is a pretty solid stance.


You already have.


By definition, they are victims. Any attempt to try and find scenarios where they are not "blameless" is just victim blaming.

Could you give an example where the victim isn't blameless?

I can from personal experience. Im happy she cheated and got out of an abusive relationship because she had someone to fall back on. And it took her a long time not to feel guilty about that. There was alcohol and violence involved. She was the victim, not him.
 

Zen

The Wise Ones
Member
Nov 1, 2017
9,656
I can from personal experience. Im happy she cheated and got out of an abusive relationship because she had someone to fall back on. And it took her a long time not to feel guilty about that. There was alcohol and violence involved. She was the victim, not him.
Both were victims of each others' actions.
 

Morphis

Member
Oct 28, 2017
301
Cheating is ingrained in our DNA. Both for women and men. It will never go away. People are quick to judge desires of this nature, but often find it very difficult to openly communicate about them in a relationship. In my view that is because of the golden standard of monogamy and the idea of 'the one'. I don't see that standard as realistic for everyone. The important thing is communication about these issues.

It's up to the couple in question to solve the cheating problem, really hard to generalize imo.
 

Lentic

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,835
An abuser who gets 'cheated on' is not a fucking victim. Grow up, child.
If you want nuance, you should recognize that sometimes both people are abusers. In fact, cheating in of itself can be a form of abuse. Abuse in response to abuse isn't justified either.

In the case where there's a clear abuser and a clear victim, I still think cheating is wrong, but I probably won't judge as harshly.
Cheating is ingrained in our DNA. Both for women and men. It will never go away. People are quick to judge desires of this nature, but often find it very difficult to openly communicate about them in a relationship. In my view that is because of the golden standard of monogamy and the idea of 'the one'. I don't see that standard as realistic for everyone. The important thing is communication about these issues.

It's up to the couple in question to solve the cheating problem, really hard to generalize imo.
Sexual desire is programmed into our DNA. Cheating is not.
 

Sean

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,591
Longview
Fuck NO. Seriously dont start this shit.

Edit: she was pushed of fucking stairs by the guy, want to defend him now?

Seriously. The fucking second that you lay a hand on, gaslight, or god forbid rape your SO (which is far too common) you lose any and all claims to any trust, loyalty, and fidelity full stop.

Man or woman, if your spouse goes to find another person after that you are not a fucking "victim" of them "cheating on" you. You do not get to claim ownership of someone else you're in a relationship with, doubly so if you hurt them. And if they find another person in the process of figuring out how to escape you they are not an awful human being.

Stop victim blaming. Stop pretending like women owe something to you if you start a relationship with them.

Trying to find someone else is the natural god damn thing to do. There's no fucking set start and end dates where they can and can't do that.
 

Zen

The Wise Ones
Member
Nov 1, 2017
9,656
There's a difference between judging the action and judging the person. Cheating is never a good thing, it doesn't mean the person is immediately evil. I think a lot of people probably agree on this point but get caught up in arguing over perceived black and white or cheating excuse arguments. I was trying to pin my finger on it for a while and I think I finally have.
 

Flame Lord

Member
Oct 26, 2017
2,794
Cheating is wrong but of the things that people I liked have come out and said or done, I can let it pass.
 

AfropunkNyc

Member
Nov 15, 2017
3,958
I'm not defending cheating, but sometimes i understand. Some times in a marriages a man or even a female tend to feel neglected by their spouse. Sometimes its to the chase where one tend to yarn for that magic they had when they first met. Though they love that person, they don't want to leave them, which is where the sense of getting some sort of affection from another person may occur. Cheating is bad but as a person who is married i tend to understand. Though when i think about it, I've been listening to a lot of Patrice O'Neil videos when he was on Opie and Anthony so my mind has been clouded as of late. Ignore me.
 

Deleted member 17092

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
20,360
There's alotta guys my age who cheat on their girlfriends and don't really care. What's even more bizarre... I'm pretty sure the girlfriends KNOWS they are cheating but they just don't care.

Kind of sounds like there isn't really a problem then. This is the set up in a lot of relationships honestly. It's not exactly an open relationship but there's side action and it's known and no one freaks out. It would probably make more sense for these relationships to be more open than they are but it's sort of a comfort level. It's like people know but they don't want to know too much/everything.
 
Nov 17, 2017
12,864
I think people are getting too caught up on the black and white thing and it probably would've helped if OP didn't say that. Because now it just looks like people are bring up the most extreme examples to defend cheating when OP is really just trying to say cheating is a bad thing to do and one shouldn't defend it. Most people aren't dealing with those extreme scenarios and the fact that it's brought up so much might make you think that if someone cheats, it must have been the other person's fault.

Thousands of minors get married every year in the US alone. Yeah let's discard all of that because there's some moral snobbery which needs to be spread across the land.
Do you really think that's what people are referring to when they say cheating is bad and shouldn't be defended? You think they're saying "Yeah, those minors should be getting married to old creeps!" I feel like this is on a completely different planet in terms of the subject.
 

Zen

The Wise Ones
Member
Nov 1, 2017
9,656
I think people are getting too caught up on the black and white thing and it probably would've helped if OP didn't say that. Because now it just looks like people are bring up the most extreme examples to defend cheating when OP is really just trying to say cheating is a bad thing to do and one shouldn't defend it. Most people aren't dealing with those extreme scenarios and the fact that it's brought up so much might make you think that if someone cheats, it must have been the other person's fault.


Do you really think that's what people are referring to when they say cheating is bad and shouldn't be defended? You think they're saying "Yeah, those minors should be getting married to old creeps!" I feel like this is on a completely different planet in terms of the subject.
I think people might have personal experience or have close friends or family that went through it and have taken it as a personal attack on them or theirs. That's how I interpret the flow of conversation.
 
OP
OP
MegaManTrigger
Oct 26, 2017
8,734
Yep that selfish girl who got coerced into a child marriage at 13 needs to go back to her 55yr old husband because the circumstances of marriage are always black and white.

Are you serious? This goes way beyond cheating at this point, and into child abuse. I don't know what you were thinking by using this example as if it's representative of cheating.
 

Roy

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,471
Are you serious? This goes way beyond cheating at this point, and into child abuse. I don't know what you were thinking by using this example as if it's representative of cheating.
Legally it's not child abuse. But this is just one example of people being trapped in marriage, abusive relationships, patriarchal standards and so on.

Your OP is narrowly focused, so limited it's no wonder that you declare it this simplistic black and white issue. It's far from it.
 

Netherscourge

Member
Oct 25, 2017
18,894
I have dumped friends who I have found out cheated on others.

Cheaters are shit. I have no respect for them and look down upon them as garbage.

If you want to be with someone else, drop the person you're with first. At least be human about it.

If someone cheats on you, they are using you. Get out.
 

Earthstrike

Member
Oct 28, 2017
1,232
let's work from some set of principles.
Firstly, we should say that people cannot be compelled to remain in relationships. If someone wants to end a relationship with someone, they have a right to do so.

Working largely from this, let's imagine a relationship where partner A assigns some kind of "punishment" to partner B if partner B attempts to break up with A. The punishment could be anything that is deisgned to cause pain and suffering in another individual, including physical and mental abuse. If partner B is out somewhere, and meets someone they like, they absolutely have every right to pursue it, for the assignment of any degree of punishment, eliminates the voluntary capacity to exit a relationship. As soon as you start trying to control or compel someone to stay with you, you absolutely have no free demand of faithfulness. That's because a relationship is not a loss of personal autonomy.
 

SaraNWrap

Alt account
Banned
Jan 30, 2019
665
Nah, don't agree in the slightest.

Yes, you are correct in a black and white situation, but you now also do the assumption that, before they meet this guy at work, they know they are in a bad relationsship and that they are not at fault, which usualy isn't the case (they knowing that is).

Hence why, it is not a black and white discussion, since there are a plethora of reasons why a person is cheating. Is cheating bad in a vaccum YES, of course, is cheating, under circumstance I mentioned, bad, yes, but it is understandable and the reason for cheating is way worse then the actual cheating.
Nope. Cheating because you are in a bad relationship is just a bullshit excuse used to try and justify shit behavior. That's some eye for an eye bullshit yall are on. AGAIN, if you are in a bad relationship your first priority should be getting out of said relationship, NOT trying to find a better one. That's some whataboutism at its finest, "Yeah I cheated, but what they did is worse so im good." Nah, fuck that, yall are on number one bullshit, cheaters are 100% garbage people.
Adults have these type of relationships too.
That's what im saying, I can forgive teenagers for shitty behavior but an adult? Nah, they are 100% pieces of shit.
 

fanboi

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
6,702
Sweden
Nope. Cheating because you are in a bad relationship is just a bullshit excuse used to try and justify shit behavior. That's some eye for an eye bullshit yall are on. AGAIN, if you are in a bad relationship your first priority should be getting out of said relationship, NOT trying to find a better one. That's some whataboutism at its finest, "Yeah I cheated, but what they did is worse so im good." Nah, fuck that, yall are on number one bullshit, cheaters are 100% garbage people.

That's what im saying, I can forgive teenagers for shitty behavior but an adult? Nah, they are 100% pieces of shit.

So by this logic if you do a misstep in anything that is immoral to your standard they are garbage people? Or is it only to cheating you have this moral high ground?