• We are delighted to introduce GiftBot 2.0, the next generation of our popular gifting feature. To celebrate, we'll be giving away some incredible prizes over the coming weeks in one big Giveaway Extravaganza!

Super Mario Maker 2 |OT| Make Your Own Witty OT Title | see threadmarks

What mode(s) do you spend the most time in?


  • Total voters
    515
Oct 29, 2017
956
If your goal is to earn Maker Points and have a shot at making the Popular page, it's super not worth it. Most people don't want to commit to a set of levels and most people don't want to replay your stuff when there's no in-game incentive to do so. If you're going to do it, do it for yourself and for the handful of people who will find it interesting (and most of the people who will find it interesting are other makers more so than the average player).

I'm still happy with the experiment, I'm glad I did it, and the reception from other makers has been fantastic. But it's not a good use of time if popularity is what you're aiming for. You gotta do it for yourself.

Which is generally good advice for any maker right now. Do it for yourself, not for the masses.
I totally hear you and I'm also not really chasing points so much as trying to refine my ability to create fun and varied levels, so I totally understand. If Nintendo ever incorporates some kind of "world" mechanic where you can create linked levels, I have to admit I'd probably jump on board and do something like this.

Speaking of, I finally got around to trying your project. I have to leave in a few minutes so I wasn't able to get through them all, but I played through the first and second stage (repeatedly, in order to get all the achievements so far - I also got the World Record for Forest Frolic, which I'm proud of after the many attempts it took xD). Really fantastic stuff so far! The placement of side objectives; the quality of bonus rooms; and the use of the Cape and various other powerups are clearly very well thought out to the point that it basically feels like I'm playing a legit Mario World game. Bravo and I can't wait to tackle the rest when I have time to finish!

The level I posted above is currently #1 on the popular tab, thank you to anyone in here who gave it a play! It’s really nothing special though, so I expect it to drop away relatively quickly. But still, it’s nice to see!
Congratulations dude! I just gave your level a try. I usually only really take a liking to "traditional" Mario stages, but as far as out of the box levels and the Sky Chase theme goes, I feel like you nailed it. Really great idea to use the track lines the way you did to simulate Sonic on a plane having to deal with enemies and projectiles. Awesome job!
 
Last edited:

GreenMamba

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,386
I'm in a bit of a rut creatively with this so I recreated another of my old levels from the first Mario Maker.


Madame Goomba's House of Vice
LCM-335-37G

"Make use of the Goomba's Stiletto to shut down the madame's illicit house!"

A level that makes use of the stiletto a bunch with some fun theming. I dunno.

I'll join the snow-fray!

New, relaxing snow-underground-themed course. No power-ups, you won't need them.
It includes a lot of tracks and it's pick a path. That's basically it. Choose the wrong track and you will die!
But don't worry. The course is easy, just read the signs (and remember them!) and you can't die.
Three bonus coins included as well as a cool ending.
Just wanted to explore an idea I had. Hopefully you still enjoy and don't fall to sleep.

Edit: On second thought, normies won't get the course and people finding it on endless won't see the despriction.
Yeah, I should expect a lot of boos. :D

Now, on to era courses!
Played this earlier today, slow paced but the ending, as always, makes it all worth it.


67D-9GB-2LG
Go give it a play
This is ridiculously creative.

Reposting for new page - I'm super proud of this thing so I'm hoping everyone gets to see it. :)



Here are the achievements:

Replying to this to let you know that I've played the first level and enjoyed it and I will be returning to the rest later!
 

Simbabbad

Member
Aug 1, 2019
32
New level, a standard obstacle course:

The Castle of 100 Perils
6MS-VR7-G1H



You know those levels that centre around a gimmick? This isn't one of them! Three rules behind this level:

- Being some classic Mario action
- Using many different obstacles - each obstacle is present in a single section
- Allowing different play styles and paths (mostly, an upper and lower paths with ways to go from one to the other)

--

About:



Great level, you can see the amount of work that has gone into it. I've made levels involving this sort of duplication work and it's always a nightmare!
Anyway, played Luigi's Recto/Verso Mansion. This level was awesome. I liked it more than the original Recto/Verso level you made. My only question is why did you add the winged Kuribo boot at the end? Is there something in Luigi's mansion similar? It just seemed out of place.

Otherwise I loved this.
Thanks, glad you liked it!

In the end, after you get through the door in the tower, you're in the graveyard. You first get in that area with the Dry Brones and the P-switch getting out of the pipe, and it's designed for you not to be able to get out - after you do get through the door, you're in the verso side of the graveyard, so instead of the P-switch, the Kuribo gets out of the pipe to help you out. Also, it helps you get to the top of the flag pole.

I didn't even try to go for the World Record here, as I knew CaptainMatilder would have destroyed it anyway.
The design here is top-notch, yes, even the giant Crosses which feel very weird in a Mario game. The coin collecting was very fun and with the exact right amount of difficulty.

I just have one remark/question.
Did it have to be a recto/verso level.

It was especially apparent for me the whole way through, even though I read the title and new the concept. It could have been (and it is) a very fine level either way, so I hope it wasn't too much of a pain to reverse everything to fit the theme. :)
Thank you, glad you enjoyed it! There are graveyards in both Luigi's Mansion games, and I really couldn't suggest those without crosses in the SMB style. Also, there have interesting shapes (like when you go into them)!

For the Recto/Verso mechanic: here, it's simply about spatial consistency - you get through doors, so the area on the other side has to make sense spatially. In Luigi's Mansion games, spatial consistency is important for exploration, like: "there should be a room in that empty area, so there must to be a secret passage here" - in our case, it helps to remember which area you've explored or not. In open areas, the design is reversed and "nearly the same but not exactly" in typical Ghost House fashion. The idea here is mostly to make the Mansion feel like a logical, real place, even if it's weird/spooky at times.

--

Super Mario Maker 2 discussion:

People bitched about character costumes locked behind 100 man mario. I guarantee people would play way more random levels if they did that for this game. There is no incentive to play endless unless you are chasing leader boards. You can find better levels online or in popular or in game search. But those do 0 for new people's exposure. The issue imo is that the game does jack shit to entice players to play random levels via the main mode. They absolutely need some real unlocks behind a new mode.
I personally hated costumes locked behind 100 Mario, it was horribly frustrating, and back then, there wasn't much more random plays. The core of the problem is simply the gap between plays and number of levels - the only way to correct this is to create a cheaper/free for online subscribers SMM2 version that only features Endless modes. Then, there would be tons of plays because you'd have a lot more players than creators.

Likes are hard to come by. People just don't like levels. I wouldn't take much from it personally. Again. The game doesn't give any incentive to like things so it has to come from players just saying this is cool.
There's an indirect reward: when people rate levels correctly, you have way more chances to play a good level and avoid a bad one. Of course, this requires a bit of maturity, and currently, the game is mostly played by teenagers who don't give a fuck. Still, Mario vs. Donkey Kong Tipping Stars tried to have tons of incentive to give stars and get some, and it ended up being a clusterfuck, 95% of levels being star dispensers with no design whatsoever. I still think the separate application would be the only solution.

In my experience, they're getting stingier too. I used to get a roughly 1/3 like rate on my popular levels, but now it's more like 1/4 or 1/5. I've even noticed the same thing with the continuing plays that Rainbow Rush Galaxy gets from being in the all time top 100, so it's not just that my levels have got worse! Even the sell-out speedrun level I did wasn't much liked! Unfortunately it seems like I need 1/3 at least to increase maker score, so my score has just been bobbing up and down at around the same level for a couple of weeks now.
Same phenomenon happened with the first Mario Maker: at times, people playing the game are mostly teenagers, and those mostly don't like levels. I've had teenagers play my whole set of levels without a single like - if they don't like my work, why do they keep playing it?

Is there a bug in the game where the red coins collected before a checkpoint are sometimes not saved?
No, it's an old Super Mario Maker problem: pink coins are saved, but not keys. Once you collect all coins and obtain the key, if you die, and even if you didn't touch a checkpoint after obtaining the key, you lose all your progress. It's probably to avoid who knows what obscure issue.

This is extremely annoying, and created the convention to put a coin near the locked door, and have nearly no hazard after the door. That way, you keep that coin for last and can't lose your progress. Of course, most people will think: "oh, a free coin", collect it right away, collect all coins, die, see their progress hasn't been saved, think: "WTF WORST LEVEL EVER", boo the level, and quit. Oh, well.

--

Feedback:

Déjà Boo 9 : Art Show
(Or as I call it: my own personal Hell.)
ID: 2C7-PDY-8FG
Lots of great things in this level of course, and you deserve tons of praise for pushing the Ghost House concept to new heights... but to be blunt, it's WAY too long and complicated. I died twice because of the time limit. First, I heard the 100s left music when we're supposed to activate the P-switch for the P-door: I got the key near the skull, ran all the way to the locked door, opened it hoping to see the end flag to make it just in time, and... uh, another locked door! I died.

Then, from the checkpoint, I redid everything until that locked door, found the key in the music note, unlocked the door expecting to finally see the end flag, but discovered there's a whole other sequence after that. I found the big mushroom, broke the pictures (it's great), found three coins - but where is the last one? I ran around, came and went, and oops, the 100s left music played again... I couldn't find that coin anywhere, tried desperately to break the blocks leading to the blue pipe located to the right, wondering if we're supposed to do that... and died.

I respawned at the second checkpoint, ran around, broke tons of blocks wondering if I wouldn't get stuck, then finally found the last coin at the whole other end of the level, locked after the scrolling on the left. "Oh, it's finally over", I thought, then stumbled on yet another puzzle: I couldn't become small Mario again, and there was no way to get to the locked door no matter what I did: pipes were locked, passages were too small, I couldn't get to the door whether the switch was on or off, and the 100s music started playing again. At that point, I admit I just gave up.

Maybe it's my fault, maybe I fooled around too much or maybe I was too slow or didn't pay attention enough, but I don't think the average player is going to be much quicker/smarter than I was. You can make two or three levels out of this one, it's too big and long and complex IMHO. Making it shorter and more intuitive wouldn't ruin its great qualities, on the opposite.

The Secret Of Cold Cold Mountain
LPS-FNH-4BG
I liked it! I like how the level shifts its settings and tone, and the James Bond-esque "underground base destroyed" narration!

I deleted Skyway Shipyard; it was too long and as a result, since I couldn't space out the 2 checkpoints without it punishing players too much, I decided to split it up into two parts: Skyway Shipyard 1 and Skyway Shipyard 2. As a reminder, I always try to make standard Mario levels so it's nothing super fancy or technical, but I did put a ton of work into trying to make this series challenging but fair, and above all, fun.
I liked both your levels, but I have a few remarks. First, in SS1:

- The part with cannons and red Koopas and seesaws is so hard to get trough without taking a hit that it's way simpler to just accept taking a hit and rush through it.
- In that section, the position of the Thwomps suggests there is something hidden above (a pink coin, perhaps), but if you get on them by Z-spinning, you can't get out or die out of it.
- I don't know if it's intended, but to get the pink coin on the top near this area, you intuitively believe the P-switch unlocking the coin is generated, whereas it's a single-use P-switch. If you try to redo the P-switch activation to get the coin after missing it, you have to kill yourself. Also, some coins you missed may transform into blocks when the switch is activated, and mess your jump/fly to get the coin.
- After the giant Thwomp/Banzai Bill part (IMHO the Banzai Bill is too much, the first time you don't intuitively jump and you take a hit), there is an area with two Galoombas and many blocks. The blocks are supposed to be neutralized with a switch, but you can be tempted to use your cape and get locked there with no way to get out or die (it happened to me).
- Getting the third coin in the area can lead to unfair hits: you can't see the cannons at the top, so when you climb by jumping on cannonballs, you just see them at the last second and get hit without being able to do anything.
- The arena with Boom-Boom is SO crowded with tons of cannons and a fire bar that we cheese through it hugging the left wall.
- I got all other coins, but didn't understand how to get the last one.

In general, I'd remove a few obstacles/enemies that spoil readability and flow, but I did enjoy it a lot.

In SS2:

- In the grinder/Bullet Bill/burner/fast conveyor belt area, either the Bullet Bill or the burner is too much, if you don't know the level by heart, it's impossible not to get hit.
- After the checkpoint, why put deadly hazards in the part that invites you to rush through the door if you fall? It slows the pacing down.
- Hiding a pink coin in an area you access if you fail is a bit cruel IMHO.

Like SS1, the level feels too punishing IMHO. I quit after I got killed in the area with red Koopas hovering over spikes, the segment before that is long, and I couldn't get cannonballs to synchronize right again like the first time.

I'll join the snow-fray!
Last time, I told you the map wasn't really useful, but this time, it's vital :-p !

Great level, with a mind-bending final like you do so well!

EVERYBODY LOVES ELEVATOR LEVELS
426-R0J-MWF

Based on the "elevator level" beat em up trope, just try to stay alive until you reach the top.
It's a nice idea theoretically, but there are issues:

- The rails covering the whole area hurt readability.
- The camera centres vertically on Mario, which means we have half a screen height to see things coming.
- The first time, I took the gaps on the sides that allow the shell to get out as a way out, and died.
- It's impossible to see the bombs coming at the end.

In fact, you could achieve the same thing in the SM3DW theme with crates floating on lava, and have a full height screen and no rails.

Forest gold.
0X4-97T-B2G
Nice level, maybe a bit slow.

Feijoa Forest
P1H-6H2-48G
A traditional SMW forest-themed level with Red Koopas, Goombas and Wigglers.
Nice level! The red Koopas and the orange Wigglers pop against the green background.

67D-9GB-2LG
Go give it a play
Visually amazing, but the mechanic itself is quite limited and frustrating IMHO.

Treetop Treasure
8B3-DNQ-J1G
Coins in the air are a bit frustrating to collect because if you fail, there is a long time of redoing stuff between each attempt.


Here's my recreation of Donkey Kong. If you played "Super Zero World," you might catch on that the final boss of that level set was my proof-of-concept for this creation - which I think turned out better than I originally expected!
It's charming! It's a bit too fast-paced and chaotic with infinite spawning (the spawning is irregular), and the first part is the weakest IMHO (layout isn't really similar), but it's fun, and the last part is very impressive - I was surprised to see it worked just like in the original!

Sky Chase Zone: Reimagined
23P-6LG-V3G
I didn't really get into it. I have problems when the whole area is covered with tracks, I feel we can't see anything. Also, you can just crouch as little Mario on the top right platform and go through everything without doing anything.
 
Oct 25, 2017
1,571
It's charming! It's a bit too fast-paced and chaotic with infinite spawning (the spawning is irregular), and the first part is the weakest IMHO (layout isn't really similar), but it's fun, and the last part is very impressive - I was surprised to see it worked just like in the original!
Oh I wish there was a way to guarantee everything spawns at the desired intervals on rails, but it just doesn’t work that way unless you’re on an auto scroll. The enemies are on a giant loop on screens 1 and 3. The game tracks the ones that spawned when you entered the room and knows where they are on the rail at all times, but doesn’t spawn the remaining enemies until Mario gets closer. So you can end up with really really weird enemy placement depending on how fast you move through. And I don’t know of a way to prevent that.

Screens 2 and 4 are the best for sure. Screen 4 was the first one I built - this project wasn't going anywhere unless I could make that work. I only wish I could get the lag between dropping the platform and triggering the exit down, but I have to be happy that the game's mechanics let me get this far.
 

ferunnico

Member
Oct 29, 2017
82
"Clobber Castle" by MisterAnderson and "Sonic 1 Tribute" by NeuroCloud are MakerEra's latest Course of the Week winners!





You can submit a course for the next Course of the Week contest until Friday, August 30th at 6 p.m. ET.
Head to the #cotw-submissions channel on our Discord server to submit your course.

Only courses that have been uploaded between August 23rd and August 30th will be accepted!

 

Solid SOAP

Member
Nov 27, 2017
965
New level!

"Movin' Platform Panic"

8BM GH1 L1G


I made a track-based level where you dodge enemies and obstacles across moving platforms. Tell me what ya think!

Now for feedback:

I'm in a bit of a rut creatively with this so I recreated another of my old levels from the first Mario Maker.


Madame Goomba's House of Vice
LCM-335-37G

"Make use of the Goomba's Stiletto to shut down the madame's illicit house!"

A level that makes use of the stiletto a bunch with some fun theming. I dunno.
Liked the stilletto theme! Very simple platforming, and you did a great job introducing the mechanic and then expanding upon it. Perhaps further exploration of the stilletto could be done in future levels? I can see a lot of room for fun challenges utilizing the mechanic.

Good stuff!

New level, a standard obstacle course:

The Castle of 100 Perils
6MS-VR7-G1H



You know those levels that centre around a gimmick? This isn't one of them! Three rules behind this level:

- Being some classic Mario action
- Using many different obstacles - each obstacle is present in a single section
- Allowing different play styles and paths (mostly, an upper and lower paths with ways to go from one to the other)
Really enjoyed this, I managed the top path! Enjoyed your typical traditional-inspired level design. Levels like these are what I aspire to make, so I'm definitely saving this one for the sake of inspiration. I appreciated the genuine challenge within the level too; it didn't baby you and I actually had to use NSMB mechanics in order to win.

Great stuff!



Here's my recreation of Donkey Kong. If you played "Super Zero World," you might catch on that the final boss of that level set was my proof-of-concept for this creation - which I think turned out better than I originally expected!
Cute! Impressive you made this stuff work, really. It felt like a much faster paced version of the original game (this, ironically MORE chaotic than I remember!). A bit wild and unpredictable in difficulty, but it made me smile. Got me thinking how I can use vines in my own levels. I actually have been wanting to make a DK Jr. level, so maybe I'll get at that soon?

Made a new level, expecting it to be boo'd unmercifully (in fact, it already has on its first play!)..... because it's a castle encased in ice blocks.


I tested it a bunch of times both taking it slow, and attempting to speed run it. Yes it is set up for speed runs. You really only need to stop at one point near the beginning of the level, and there is a bit of a boss room near the end.

Other features: Three 10 coins as challenges and a hidden room with some extra 1-ups for encounters in endless.
I just played and enjoyed it :) not as bad as I was expecting! Pretty fair challenges throughout, all of which were telegraphed well. I even liked the little Bomb-Omb boss battle at the end. Nice creative way to implement a "boss" into the game.
 
Last edited:

Famassu

Member
Oct 27, 2017
6,348
A bit disappointed in the Nintendo made levels. Some fun gimmicks that differ from the usual Mario gimmicks but too much of it was a bit too trial & error where single mistake would mean playing the whole (short, but still whole) level again from the start. And almost all of the levels were, like, half or 1/3rd of usual Mario levels' length. I know the levels are mostly just there to introduce players to the possibilities & versatility of the creation tools but I had hoped for a bit more. As such this is probably one of my least enjoyable (2d) Mario experiences. Didn't even bother finishing all the levels after the castle was finished because I didn't feel compelled to continue. I did all the hard(er) ones that gave 200-300 coins that I got unlocked, the 100-150 coin levels were mostly pretty boring so I have a few pages of those left.

Will have to get around to playing the user made levels at some point but I'm gonna give the game to my mom for her to play through the campaign before delving into that hole of fun & despair.
 

Butane

Member
Nov 2, 2017
83
Made a new level, expecting it to be boo'd unmercifully (in fact, it already has on its first play!)..... because it's a castle encased in ice blocks.


I tested it a bunch of times both taking it slow, and attempting to speed run it. Yes it is set up for speed runs. You really only need to stop at one point near the beginning of the level, and there is a bit of a boss room near the end.

Other features: Three 10 coins as challenges and a hidden room with some extra 1-ups for encounters in endless.
 

Painguy

Member
Oct 26, 2017
780
California
Hi Everyone. Hope you all are doing well. I made a few courses and would appreciate if you tried them out and provided some criticism. I don't mind harsh criticism so please feel free to shit on the levels. If you don't feel like playing all of them I would like to see what you think of Jump Towards The Light and Dry Dry Cliff.

Goomba Moonbase α

This is my first level. It's a metroidvania type level. You have to get all the key coins to repair your ship and get to the goal. I wish costumes were still in :(. I made it just so I can get accustomed to Mario Maker 2 and some of the new features. It is fairly long and......complicated.


VIDEO

Bouncing?...Among The Clouds

My Second level. Bounce towards the goal. Try to get as many coins as you can as an added challenge.. I made it so that there can be two bouncy donuts for multiplayer. Good luck beating it that way though. I was aiming for 10% clear rate difficulty. Do you think I achieved that?


VIDEO

Dry Dry Cliff

I wanted to try the vertical mode and the new 3D World style. This level is focused on wall jumping and using enemies as platforms to scale a tall cliff. I was aiming for a 15%ish level of difficulty? How did I do?


VIDEO
Jump Towards The Light

In this level you must turn the lights on or off too find your way to the goal. Jumping and staying with light sources is the key to success. I was aiming for a 20%ish level of difficulty. I hope that as you play through all my levels they progressively get easier.


VIDEO
Cool Cool Valley

I made this today. It's a fairly "chill" level. I made it so that you never have to press the run button. You have to use those twister enemies to make your way to the goal. I was aiming for a 30%ish level of difficulty. I'd appreciate any criticism.


VIDEO

I want to make "sequels" to a few of these. Which would you recommend?
 

Phabh

Member
Oct 28, 2017
2,119
No, it's an old Super Mario Maker problem: pink coins are saved, but not keys. Once you collect all coins and obtain the key, if you die, and even if you didn't touch a checkpoint after obtaining the key, you lose all your progress. It's probably to avoid who knows what obscure issue.

This is extremely annoying, and created the convention to put a coin near the locked door, and have nearly no hazard after the door. That way, you keep that coin for last and can't lose your progress. Of course, most people will think: "oh, a free coin", collect it right away, collect all coins, die, see their progress hasn't been saved, think: "WTF WORST LEVEL EVER", boo the level, and quit. Oh, well.
Oh I see, thanks for your answer. That's strange. Why "no hazard after the door" though?
So the problem only arises once you collected all red coins and the key appeared and you died?
It should be fine for most of my levels as I only use red coins to unlock a warp box in SM3DW to go to another area with a flag right after.

Can't wait to play your levels and publish mine all at once (I only played and created offline so far), I'm waiting for a good number of levels to share before subscribing to NSO. Spent 40 hours on 5 levels ^ ^
 

Wijuci

Member
Jan 16, 2018
1,293
Feedback:


MisterAnderson I played three of your levels yesterday, the two Skyway Shipyard and Clobber Castle.
I loved the Skyway Shipyard ones. The level design is so good I always felt like I was performing incredible platforming tricks... just because the level was designed in a way I could perform incredible platforming tricks. But that's a nice feeling, so I don't care how I did it. ^^
I had the same remark as Simbabbad regarding the small seesaw section in the first level: it's just so much simpler to take the hit, so that's what I did, and I think it's not optimal.

Clobber Castle I have more issues with.
I loved the concept, and it felt fresh the whole way through. However the difficulty was a bit much for me, starting just before the second checkpoint. At this point, you have a kind of hard section followed by the player falling on a red block... which disappear because the switch is it. There is unfortunately no room for error here, miss your timing or forgot to jump and you're dead (and have to redo the whole section). There was no need to have lava here, I think, or at least not directly below the first red blocks (where you don't necessarily know you're in danger).
The autoscroll after the second checkpoint was too fast, especially when you hit the hidden 1-up block and have to go backward.

Otherwise very good level, just too unforgiving for my taste.



Thank you, glad you enjoyed it! There are graveyards in both Luigi's Mansion games, and I really couldn't suggest those without crosses in the SMB style.
I didn't know that (never played Luigi's Mansion), so I guess it's justified. Just weird.
Maybe put some skulls next time? :)

Also, there have interesting shapes (like when you go into them)!
I'm not gonna lie, that was my favorite part of the level!

For the Recto/Verso mechanic: here, it's simply about spatial consistency - you get through doors, so the area on the other side has to make sense spatially. In Luigi's Mansion games, spatial consistency is important for exploration, like: "there should be a room in that empty area, so there must to be a secret passage here" - in our case, it helps to remember which area you've explored or not. In open areas, the design is reversed and "nearly the same but not exactly" in typical Ghost House fashion. The idea here is mostly to make the Mansion feel like a logical, real place, even if it's weird/spooky at times.
That makes perfect sense, thanks for the anwser.

I've had teenagers play my whole set of levels without a single like
Dude, how do you knw they're teenagers? ^^





----

Re: Déjà Boo 9 (2C7-PDY-8FG)

I think you were trying to hint at things with the confetti effect,
No hint no, it was just because the level is supposed to be an art show, so you get confettis each time you see a new painting. :)

I had to REALLY try to get to that pipe though, for some reason it seemed like a reasonable thing to try in the moment lol, but in hindsight it was so tough for me to get to that it felt like I was maaaaybe expecting it to be a secret or something. xD
Damn, so there is a softlock... :(
From the sound of it, you weren't the only one trying to access this pipe. I thought I had secured it but apparently not!

Thank you for your feedback!


Simbabbad
First, let me tell you I really appreciate your feedback, and especially the time you took playing this and to write this.

Lots of great things in this level of course, and you deserve tons of praise for pushing the Ghost House concept to new heights... but to be blunt, it's WAY too long and complicated.
WHAT? To long and complicated?
Absolutely not. It's just meaty. :)

Then, from the checkpoint, I redid everything until that locked door, found the key in the music note, unlocked the door expecting to finally see the end flag, but discovered there's a whole other sequence after that. I found the big mushroom, broke the pictures (it's great), found three coins - but where is the last one? I ran around, came and went, and oops, the 100s left music played again... I couldn't find that coin anywhere, tried desperately to break the blocks leading to the blue pipe located to the right, wondering if we're supposed to do that... and died.
The blue pipe on the right is on me, sorry, I messed up it shouldn't feel accessible. :/

I respawned at the second checkpoint, ran around, broke tons of blocks wondering if I wouldn't get stuck, then finally found the last coin at the whole other end of the level, locked after the scrolling on the left. "Oh, it's finally over", I thought, then stumbled on yet another puzzle: I couldn't become small Mario again, and there was no way to get to the locked door no matter what I did: pipes were locked, passages were too small, I couldn't get to the door whether the switch was on or off, and the 100s music started playing again. At that point, I admit I just gave up.
I saw you played it and didn't finish, I was wondering why, now I know!
You just got exhausted and rage quit! :))

You were almost done, but I think you tried to open a locked door you already went through.
The final door, you went passed it twice during the level, it's in the very first room.


Maybe it's my fault, maybe I fooled around too much or maybe I was too slow or didn't pay attention enough, but I don't think the average player is going to be much quicker/smarter than I was. You can make two or three levels out of this one, it's too big and long and complex IMHO. Making it shorter and more intuitive wouldn't ruin its great qualities, on the opposite.
You won, I'm going to make a speed-run Ghost House.
All because of you!

Again, thanks so much for the feedback. :)
 

Gotdatmoney

Member
Oct 28, 2017
7,727
In my experience, they're getting stingier too. I used to get a roughly 1/3 like rate on my popular levels, but now it's more like 1/4 or 1/5. I've even noticed the same thing with the continuing plays that Rainbow Rush Galaxy gets from being in the all time top 100, so it's not just that my levels have got worse! Even the sell-out speedrun level I did wasn't much liked! Unfortunately it seems like I need 1/3 at least to increase maker score, so my score has just been bobbing up and down at around the same level for a couple of weeks now.
Yeah I have been experiencing the same thing. My levels use to maintain about 1:3 like to play ratio. Its seen a significant drop now closer to 1:5. I don't think my levels are any worse though I know that I have been making them longer and a bit more challenging and that generally pulls my your score down.

All the same though the game doesn't incentivise liking things. There are no rewards or stretch goals for liking levels. There is nothing that should drive people beyond just wanting to. The game would do better if it gave reasons to like stuff and play random levels.

I personally hated costumes locked behind 100 Mario, it was horribly frustrating, and back then, there wasn't much more random plays. The core of the problem is simply the gap between plays and number of levels - the only way to correct this is to create a cheaper/free for online subscribers SMM2 version that only features Endless modes. Then, there would be tons of plays because you'd have a lot more players than creators.
I get why people didn't like how costumes were locked but I would disagree that it didn't yeild more plays. I think it added way more reason to play 100 man mario when otherwise there wouldn't be any. Like I said before though. They don't have to add more players through a free tier. Another option is to get the people who do have the game to play more random levels. I don't think they have done a good enough job at this to justify that its a number of levels vs players issue.

There's an indirect reward: when people rate levels correctly, you have way more chances to play a good level and avoid a bad one. Of course, this requires a bit of maturity, and currently, the game is mostly played by teenagers who don't give a fuck. Still, Mario vs. Donkey Kong Tipping Stars tried to have tons of incentive to give stars and get some, and it ended up being a clusterfuck, 95% of levels being star dispensers with no design whatsoever. I still think the separate application would be the only solution.

Same phenomenon happened with the first Mario Maker: at times, people playing the game are mostly teenagers, and those mostly don't like levels. I've had teenagers play my whole set of levels without a single like - if they don't like my work, why do they keep playing it?
I don't think its just teenagers tbh. We have an example on this page of a young daughter wanting to boo a level because she didn't get it at all. That level was mechanically brilliant and even if it had issues in of themselves it is not boo worthy. I think little kids are just as guilty here where they boo things or wont like then simply because they cant beat them. Difference being they havent developed the skills to clear levels with even a tiny bit of challenge.

Someone going through your entire catalog and not liking a single level is shitty though. If you are playing all of them why would you not like even a single one? But I feel the game could do more to give you a reason to like them. Ideally if everyone used the like system properly you would have a better selection of games but it doesn't work like that because like and boo mean different things to different people.

Like I'm booing shit with Kaizo blocks. Because I find that annoying and especially in endless bying to some persons shitty troll when I'm in a tight spot pisses me off. Some people wont play endless and so this wont ever be an issue.
 
May 27, 2018
841
Now, this was a LOT of work:

Luigi's Recto/Verso Mansion 2MY-LB9-9NF



This is sort of a sequel to Super Recto/Verso Land, with the same gimmick: the level has actually two sides - taking a door takes you behind the side you're currently in and swaps the view. Therefore, every area without solid blocks or backdrops are strictly symmetrical, while the others have differences you have to use to progress.
I really enjoyed this course and I immediately recognized it from Super Mario Maker 1.
Very cool exploration-themed course with spooky settings.

CaptainMatilder I'd love to get some feedback from you on Framed!
What can I say? Brilliant work. Same goes for Quantum Heist and Groundhog Day. :)
The chase was very cool and the ending were you get rid of the enemies by dropping them in the pit.
Everytime I play your courses I learn something new. The gameplay is always top notch.
Really enjoy the storytelling in your course as well as your optional challenges (e.g. red coins). Especially in those courses, amiibo customes would be appreciated. Shame, Nintendo.

I think most of your courses you uploaded till now are ports or remakes of your Mario Maker 1 ones, right?

Played a couple more of your older courses while working my way through my backlog. Did you delete and reupload some or almost any of your Deja Boo courses these past days/weeks? I think in the future I should wait a couple of days before playing you courses, so I can play the final version. :D
I mean, I get it, your courses are mindfuckingly complex and one can easily miss some cheese here or softlock there. I know that with my courses as well. I think most of my courses do have some kind or softlock. As a creator you are totally blind for those spots. Anyway, your courses are hurting my brain. But I think that's somewhat the purpose. I mean, these are ghost houses afterall. :P
Great work!

The Secret Of Cold Cold Mountain

LPS-FNH-4BG
This is my first level in a while now, been busy with boring real life! It's more about exploration and narrative than hard platforming, but hopefully it's still enjoyable.
Apologies for not doing any write ups recently, I have played most of the levels posted but it's just difficult to find the time!

*edit* Now with the correct code...
Hey! Where is all the color?
Seems you are returning to the roots with a very cool traditional-themed course. Of course, there are a lot of secret coins to find. The part with the bill launchers was very cool. I think I saw that in one of Ceave's videos. Such a cool mechanic. I have to find a way to implement that in one of my future courses! Well done!
 
Last edited:

Wijuci

Member
Jan 16, 2018
1,293
Played a couple more of your older courses while working my way through my backlog. Did you delete and reupload some or almost any of your Deja Boo courses these past days/weeks? I think in the future I should wait a couple of days before playing you courses, so I can play the final version. :D
Yeah, I updated parts 2, 3, and 4. The last two because I felt I could improve them (and they had not many plays anyway), and part 2 because there was a huge softlock.

I mean, I get it, your courses are mindfuckingly complex and one can easily miss some cheese here or softlock there. I know that with my courses as well. I think most of my courses do have some kind or softlock. As a creator you are totally blind for those spots.
Yeah, it's really, really hard to find all the possible softlocks or ways players can screw themselves, unless you see them play.
 
Oct 29, 2017
956
I liked both your levels, but I have a few remarks. First, in SS1:
- The part with cannons and red Koopas and seesaws is so hard to get trough without taking a hit that it's way simpler to just accept taking a hit and rush through it.
I was always worried that this part was too difficult, which is why I added a progressive Cape powerup at the start of this section (a reward for reaching this part as Big Mario to make it easier) to give the player an extra hit/the cape spin attack to be used as a shield of sorts, knocking away cannonballs as the player ascends. I was also hoping that players would figure out that tossing the Koopa shells upwards helps clear a path, as I always found that a fun and satisfying way to safely get to the top. You can also freestyle canonball jump on one or two cannonballs to make it to the top, but I realize all of these methods are a bit circumstantial and it's always been a tough area to get through without taking a hit, so I definitely think you're right about this criticism.
- In that section, the position of the Thwomps suggests there is something hidden above (a pink coin, perhaps), but if you get on them by Z-spinning, you can't get out or die out of it.
So...I ALWAYS forget that Mario can Z-spin on Thwomps, so I definitely didn't mean to telegraph that a secret was above them. I just tried to make that area look somewhat interesting by decorating it and meant to give the player a proper warning that Thwomps are up ahead so it wouldn't feel like a cheap death if the player was smashed. xD I'm actually sad that I didn't think of this because it would have been a great spot for a Pink Coin, lol.
- I don't know if it's intended, but to get the pink coin on the top near this area, you intuitively believe the P-switch unlocking the coin is generated, whereas it's a single-use P-switch. If you try to redo the P-switch activation to get the coin after missing it, you have to kill yourself. Also, some coins you missed may transform into blocks when the switch is activated, and mess your jump/fly to get the coin.
This was meant to be a one off attempt to grab the Pink Coin, as I personally don't think it's necessary for a level to allow the player to have repeated attempts to claim a secret (I'm not against it either, I just wanted to point out this was intentional). Also, if the player was to drop back down there to see if there was another P-Block, I tested it to make sure that it is indeed possible to glide jump back to the "runway" to the left without killing yourself. I did realize, like you pointed out, that any coins that were missed ascending up after the initial takeoff could potentially block the flight path to the Pink Coin, but was hoping that the flight up was straightforward enough that most players wouldn't run into that issue. I accepted it as an added obstacle to the player for punishment for a sloppy takeoff, but I probably should have cleaned this up a bit better so it was more forgiving.
- After the giant Thwomp/Banzai Bill part (IMHO the Banzai Bill is too much, the first time you don't intuitively jump and you take a hit), there is an area with two Galoombas and many blocks. The blocks are supposed to be neutralized with a switch, but you can be tempted to use your cape and get locked there with no way to get out or die (it happened to me).
This isn't intended to discredit your experience, but just to explain my process/reasoning with the inclusion of the Bonzai Bill: I had 4 of my friends independently play this section and they each made the jump the first time, or died by jumping TOO early actually, but never from hitting the Banzai Bill so I (incorrectly) assumed this wasn't too big of an issue based on that information. In fact in hindsight, the presence of the Bonzai Bill might have been what instinctively caused them to jump too early. I definitely recognized that this may have been a little much, but the feeling I got from making that flight jump successfully was too satisfying for me to change it, even though I probably should have played it safe and done just that.

As for the blocks, honestly this used to just be an empty pit for the player to die if they messed up the flight up to the checkpoint. I felt like that was a little unfair since the checkpoint was RIGHT there, so I made it an extra 1-Up area instead. I should have probably just made the yellow block with the hidden P-Switch a '?' Block, but I tried to cue the player that it wasn't an ordinary yellow block by positioning the Lamp Post underneath it as a visual hint. I didn't consider someone getting stuck with the cape only to die...which would especially suck if you didn't grab the checkpoint up above. :(
- Getting the third coin in the area can lead to unfair hits: you can't see the cannons at the top, so when you climb by jumping on cannonballs, you just see them at the last second and get hit without being able to do anything.
Damn. I was mistakenly under the impression that if you're positioned on the platform with the 2 cannons aiming up that the cannons on the ceiling were in view, but I think I just remembered it being like this because I created the level and subconsciously always knew they were there, lol.
- The arena with Boom-Boom is SO crowded with tons of cannons and a fire bar that we cheese through it hugging the left wall.
I have the most difficult time coming up with boss fights that aren't super "samesie" or "gimmicky", I felt like this wasn't too bad especially if you had the cape to use offensively, and there's a few "safe zones" from the cannonballs as long as you're mindful of where the fire bar is during the fight, and if you pay attention to the cannonball pattern. I'm definitely glad I at least put the Checkpoint right before the boss for this reason though, as I couldn't tell if it felt too chaotic to the point of frustration. With that said, I realized that the boss could be "cheesed", but for the fastest speed run times you'd probably want to play more aggressively to take him out as quickly as possible, so risk vs reward for a faster time was mostly what I was going for here. I definitely need to work on my boss arena designs in future levels should I attempt it again.
- I got all other coins, but didn't understand how to get the last one.
Did you at least see it? It's in the final goal post area, I made sure that it was in view as you entered this area (in the top right of the screen) so the player knew they had to find a way to get up to get it. To reach it you have to bullet jump up the final 2 cannonballs right before the goal, which are positioned directly beneath the Coin which was shown moments earlier. The bonus room entrance/locked door is in the same room just as you drop down from the upper section.
In general, I'd remove a few obstacles/enemies that spoil readability and flow, but I did enjoy it a lot.
Definitely, thank you SO MUCH for all of these notes. I do tend to struggle finding a balance when I aim to make a challenging stage. I overdo it a bit with too much shit that is probably overwhelming to most players. Believe it or not, this is a toned down version from what it was previously, so I'm definitely glad I at least changed the things that I changed, but from the sounds of it, it could have benefited from me toning it down even further apparently. :P

In SS2:

- In the grinder/Bullet Bill/burner/fast conveyor belt area, either the Bullet Bill or the burner is too much, if you don't know the level by heart, it's impossible not to get hit.
I literally almost made this change before uploading. :( In the end, I convinced myself that I telegraphed the burner well enough to justify the added difficulty. And at the very least I made sure that in a speed run, you can just jump clear over the burners, but like you mentioned that requires knowing about it ahead of time. I need to be more mindful of this when I design difficult sections in the future.
- After the checkpoint, why put deadly hazards in the part that invites you to rush through the door if you fall? It slows the pacing down.
There used to be double the amount of pirannah plants in this area, lol. To explain my reasoning, the point of this piranha plant pit was as follows: to not immediately punish the player with a death if they fail the jumping challenge, yet still provide an obstacle and a chance (but not a guarantee) for them to get back safely to the top to try again. As far as pacing goes, yeah, I can see that it would probably just be a frustrating thing to deal with and kind of kill the pacing, that didn't occur to me. In freeplay, the player might as well just kill themselves to quickly respawn at the checkpoint, but I wanted to give the player a chance to get back up without spending a life if they ever got this in Endless mode.
- Hiding a pink coin in an area you access if you fail is a bit cruel IMHO.
I was wondering about this too. After splitting the level into two, I needed to find additional hiding spots for more Pink Coins, and since I didn't design this section initially with a hidden coin in mind, this was what I came up with and it shows. I was hoping that as players were making the cannonball jumps up as intended, they might notice the yellow block area which might spark their curiosity regarding a possible secret nearby that would allow them to reach it. If they are good enough to not fail the first try, maybe they would be compelled to explore below if they died later and respawned at the checkpoint or if they played the level again with the goal to find all of the Pink Coins. But you're absolutely right, I don't think it's too fair to put a reward somewhere that the player needs to "fail" or tempt fate in order to find.
Like SS1, the level feels too punishing IMHO. I quit after I got killed in the area with red Koopas hovering over spikes, the segment before that is long, and I couldn't get cannonballs to synchronize right again like the first time.
It's so silly to me that the editor doesn't allow hard synchronization settings and is completely reliant on things entering the screen. Having said that, after reading through your feedback I'm REALLY glad I tweaked the level to be easier, and you've helped me realize I need to take it even further in the future. Your feedback is always SUPER helpful and I very much appreciate you spending the time to write all of this out. <3 If you ever give SS2 another shot sometime and you get through to the end, I'd love to hear if you have any other notes/criticisms! I'll definitely give your new level a go when I get home from work later and let you know what I think!

Fun fact: The original version of Skyway Shipyard that was one giant level had like a 1.5% completion rate. Last time I checked, SS1 has around 12-15% and SS2 has 6-8% completion rate, so I'm pretty happy about that.

MisterAnderson I played three of your levels yesterday, the two Skyway Shipyard and Clobber Castle.
I loved the Skyway Shipyard ones. The level design is so good I always felt like I was performing incredible platforming tricks... just because the level was designed in a way I could perform incredible platforming tricks. But that's a nice feeling, so I don't care how I did it. ^^
I had the same remark as Simbabbad regarding the small seesaw section in the first level: it's just so much simpler to take the hit, so that's what I did, and I think it's not optimal.
Thanks so much for the kind words! And about that seesaw section, I'll copy and paste what I told Simbabbad up above in case you're curious about my thought process for designing that area, but I think you both are absolutely right about that:

"I was always worried that this part was too difficult, which is why I added a progressive Cape powerup at the start of this section (a reward for reaching this part as Big Mario to make it easier) to give the player an extra hit/the cape spin attack to be used as a shield of sorts, knocking away cannonballs as the player ascends.. I was also hoping that players would figure out that tossing the Koopa shells upwards helps clear a path, as I always found that a fun and satisfying way to safely get to the top. You can also freestyle canonball jump on one or two cannonballs to make it to the top, but I realize all of these methods are a bit circumstantial and it's always been a tough area to get through without taking a hit, so I definitely think you're right about this criticism."
Clobber Castle I have more issues with.
I loved the concept, and it felt fresh the whole way through. However the difficulty was a bit much for me, starting just before the second checkpoint. At this point, you have a kind of hard section followed by the player falling on a red block... which disappear because the switch is it. There is unfortunately no room for error here, miss your timing or forgot to jump and you're dead (and have to redo the whole section). There was no need to have lava here, I think, or at least not directly below the first red blocks (where you don't necessarily know you're in danger).
I tried to telegraph the platforming that was to follow by having the first Skewer Switch smash occur when the player is standing on that single blue block, that then safely drops the player onto the red blocked platform below. I rationalized that this "warning" was enough time for the player to work out what they had to do, but yeah I probably should have made a third "safe" platform underneath which both revealed the lava and safely landed the player so that it is less punishing if someone wasn't able to sort out the logistics of the room quickly enough, especially since the Checkpoint is all the way at the top of this area. I underestimated the difficulty of this section I think, good feedback!
The autoscroll after the second checkpoint was too fast, especially when you hit the hidden 1-up block and have to go backward. Otherwise very good level, just too unforgiving for my taste.
Damn, that's unfortunate. I had to make it that fast so that the player wouldn't run so far ahead at the final sprint section that the right side of the screen was holding them back, and unfortunately I ran out of "custom autoscroll" points to use to tweak it further. But after testing it a bunch of times myself, I was under the impression that it wasn't too bad; at worst, I was hoping that it would be suitable for a final challenge before the end, but maybe I overdid it a bit. Mario games in the past have used autoscroll as a danger to potentially "crush" Mario pretty commonly, which is kind of what I was intending for this section, but I definitely wasn't trying to make it unforgivably punishing.

Thanks again for playing my levels and for taking the time to share your notes! :D
 
Last edited:

Wijuci

Member
Jan 16, 2018
1,293
Damn, that's unfortunate. I had to make it that fast so that the player wouldn't run so far ahead at the final sprint section that the right side of the screen was holding them back, and unfortunately I ran out of "custom autoscroll" points to use to tweak it further. But after testing it a bunch of times myself, I was under the impression that it wasn't too bad; at worst, I was hoping that it would be suitable for a final challenge before the end, but maybe I overdid it a bit.
I made a similar "mistake" in the one auto-scroll level I built.
After testing again and again, I knew the path so well that the medium speed seemed way too easy. So I put that to fast speed, and still could do it easily, I was satisfied with the change.

Now that 200+ players have played the course and I can see the death marks, let me say that I was wrong. It's way too hard and people keep dying, just because it's too fast.

All that to say: it's really hard to "unlearn" a level you've created and appreciate its actual difficulty.
 
Oct 25, 2017
1,571
Man getting plays is so hard right now. My Donkey Kong level has 19 likes / 28 plays which is a great (and obviously unsustainable) ratio but I just can’t get plays on it! I’ve been hitting up the reddit thread but I’m not sure where else to go.
 

Jocchan

Member
Oct 25, 2017
137
Silent Hill
Finally got around to playing this (I've been super busy in Maker Mode...going to upload what I've been working on later today) and it was SUPER clever. I loved how you were able to capture the theme and concept so well with the limited tools at your disposal. The chase was legit amazing, and to be honest I never realized you can go from standard and transition to autoscroll in the same "level" - how do you do that? I really loved the final part with the Goomba dropping traps, but the Switch block section felt like it was almost too sudden for me to react on the first run through; that might be on me just not paying enough attention though. The variety of light puzzles/platforming sections in the first part and the autoscroll chase stuff really did it for me. Definitely downloaded it for my collection. :)
Thank you!
Both maps are actually set with autoscroll on, but the main one (ground) starts with a bunch of areas with scroll locks at exactly one screen of width, so that you never notice until the police breaks in, unlocking the autoscroll to start off the chase (credit for the clean wall breaking goes to RagnarokX who posted a neat method involving a Thwomp and a Bob-Omb a while ago).
Glad you enjoyed it!

This is brilliant, the way you used the space to create the illusion of a vertical level, only for the sudden switch to a rooftop chase to kick in was fantastic.
Heh, thanks! I wanted the chase to feel sudden and unexpected, and the change in direction after building the level vertically up to that point was meant to make it feel more striking.
I originally had the apartments in a vertical submap, but early on I came up with the murderer idea, decided to have a chase with the police as callback to The Quantum Heist, and consequently dropped the submap (only to end up using it anyway for a second main location, the abandoned factory).

What can I say? Brilliant work. Same goes for Quantum Heist and Groundhog Day. :)
The chase was very cool and the ending were you get rid of the enemies by dropping them in the pit.
Everytime I play your courses I learn something new. The gameplay is always top notch.
Really enjoy the storytelling in your course as well as your optional challenges (e.g. red coins). Especially in those courses, amiibo customes would be appreciated. Shame, Nintendo.
Thank you!
About the pit, I added a Boom Boom to the crowd specifically to have that little screen shake effect after they fall down. A small detail, but it really made the scene imo.
I'm also learning a lot from you, especially how you can use ON/OFF blocks to control the spawns. That is brilliant, and I'm planning to use that a lot for my next course.

About optional challenges, with the overabundance of levels available in SMM2 I'm not sure how many will bother doing them, but I like to put some optional rewards for exploration and small puzzles. Lately I've been using this setup: five big coins, the last of which hidden inside a top secret room only accessible by finding five key coins (AKA the ultimate level-wide challenge).

Oh, and the lack of costumes is a real shame.

I think most of your courses you uploaded till now are ports or remakes of your Mario Maker 1 ones, right?
Half of them (Before & After The Apocalypse, Groundhog Day and The Quantum Heist).
The other three (Late For Work Simulator, Exploratory and Framed!) are new, and so is my next one (also story focused, but will likely get destroyed by Boos for its theme).

I don't have fond memories of the first Super Mario Maker in that regard, that game was a lot more frustrating. I don't have less feedback in SMM2, I rather have more, and mostly, levels I stumble on are MUCH better.

But currently, we're in a very slow moment: people don't play or discuss the game much. I released a big level I spent weeks on with tons of polishing, I myself gave a lot of feedback on people's levels lately, the first feedback I have on the level is very positive, and then...



I'm not even talking about trending or hundreds of plays, I'm talking about a decent number of plays.

I currently have FIVE levels that are finished, but I'm waiting for activity to pick up again. I don't want to release something I spent a lot of time on and have next to no reaction again. Poor Luigi's Recto/Verso Mansion...



Oh, well, c'est la vie.

I'm not blaming Nintendo: they can't invent people playing levels. I said it already for the first game: the core of the problem is people don't play much compared to the number of levels produced. So they just redirect the flow they have from troll/bad levels (theoretically detected by "Boos") to better ones, it's the only thing they can do.

The only way to improve things would be to release a free/free for online subscribers/cheap application that only allows people to play levels and not create ones. That way, you'll suddenly have a lot more people who play than people who create, and there would be a lot more feedback/visits.

Then again: would you want your levels to be judged by people with no SMM2 account, and who can judge without ever being judged? It's complicated.
Honestly, I don't remember the lack of plays being this bad in SMM1.
But I guess making levels is just too fun, much more than playing them.

It's that time of the week again!



Déjà Boo 9 : Art Show
ID: 2C7-PDY-8FG


What kind of lunatic goes to an Art Show in a Ghost House?!?

This one took a while to made. For obvious reasons, when you see it, but also because it took me a long long while to test it for potential softlocks and mistakes.

Oh, and I uploaded it yesterday just before going to bed and... deleted it 10 minutes later because I couldn't sleep, because I just had an idea for a whole third act I had to add to the level.

Anyway, it's an insane maze!
For those of you who played Déjà Boo 8, it's the same kind of tech, but with a few new tricks. And without the awesome twist at the end. (Sorry.)

The idea was to give players so nice things to look at when they get lost.

I hope you enjoy it!

(And I really hope I didn't make a stupid mistake which softlocks half the players and lets the other half win in 30 seconds.)
This was incredible, took me a while to figure out what was going on with the scroll locks, and I'm not entirely sure how much of my progression was conscious and how much was just going around randomly until things happened.
I ran out of time once, and finished the level right before running out again.
But I had a blast anyway. Great job!

I'm in a bit of a rut creatively with this so I recreated another of my old levels from the first Mario Maker.


Madame Goomba's House of Vice
LCM-335-37G

"Make use of the Goomba's Stiletto to shut down the madame's illicit house!"

A level that makes use of the stiletto a bunch with some fun theming.
I knew I remembered this level!
It was as fun as the first time around.

New level, a standard obstacle course:

The Castle of 100 Perils
6MS-VR7-G1H



You know those levels that centre around a gimmick? This isn't one of them! Three rules behind this level:

- Being some classic Mario action
- Using many different obstacles - each obstacle is present in a single section
- Allowing different play styles and paths (mostly, an upper and lower paths with ways to go from one to the other)
Fun level, I liked the freedom in choosing your path, and even though some challenges were pretty tough they never felt unfair. Great job!
 

Simbabbad

Member
Aug 1, 2019
32
New level, because why not?

Le Lièvre et la Tortue (The Hare and the Tortoise)
BTX-1BK-VMF



This level is a bit peculiar. While playing online with random levels, I'm always annoyed when blinking blocks are simply used to stop the player and make him wait for the blocks to blink. "They're not supposed to be used like that", I mumble, "they're supposed to change the level design and make the player adapt to it without breaking the flow". So I finally decided to make a level about that, and one thing leading to another, I built this tower made 95% of blinking blocks. In this level, you never have to wait, there is always a way up, but beware of the shift. It should be compatible with many play styles, I tested it for a week using different styles.

It's called the Hare and the Tortoise because if you rush, you can get greedy and fall, whereas a slow, methodical player won't. It's a speedrun level starting with 100 seconds, but it can be completed in time even by someone never running, never wall jumping, and never doing big jumps. It gives two lives right at the start and it has a checkpoint. Statistics will be interesting (and the world record).

--

About:



Fun level, I liked the freedom in choosing your path, and even though some challenges were pretty tough they never felt unfair. Great job!
Really enjoyed this, I managed the top path! Enjoyed your typical traditional-inspired level design. Levels like these are what I aspire to make, so I'm definitely saving this one for the sake of inspiration. I appreciated the genuine challenge within the level too; it didn't baby you and I actually had to use NSMB mechanics in order to win.

Great stuff!
Thanks! The top path is probably harder/more geared toward precision platforming!

About Luigi's Recto/Verso Mansion:

I really enjoyed this course and I immediately recognized it from Super Mario Maker 1.
Very cool exploration-themed course with spooky settings.
Thank you! Editing it in SMM2 to move rooms around and improve flow and balance was a nightmare.

Maybe put some skulls next time? :)
There are two rows of skulls at the beginning (not typical Mario either)!

--

General discussion about the game:

Is it me, or is tagging your level "speedrun" a very dangerous thing if your level isn't the kind: "hold right + the run button and jump once in a while"?

A bit disappointed in the Nintendo made levels. Some fun gimmicks that differ from the usual Mario gimmicks but too much of it was a bit too trial & error where single mistake would mean playing the whole (short, but still whole) level again from the start. And almost all of the levels were, like, half or 1/3rd of usual Mario levels' length. I know the levels are mostly just there to introduce players to the possibilities & versatility of the creation tools but I had hoped for a bit more. As such this is probably one of my least enjoyable (2d) Mario experiences. Didn't even bother finishing all the levels after the castle was finished because I didn't feel compelled to continue. I did all the hard(er) ones that gave 200-300 coins that I got unlocked, the 100-150 coin levels were mostly pretty boring so I have a few pages of those left.

Will have to get around to playing the user made levels at some point but I'm gonna give the game to my mom for her to play through the campaign before delving into that hole of fun & despair.
I have to agree with you there, I was disappointed with Nintendo levels too, they're just a slow, never ending tutorial. It's well and good to explain mechanics, but it would have been great to go a bit further and illustrate actual design. Where are the typical Mario levels?

Oh I see, thanks for your answer. That's strange. Why "no hazard after the door" though?
So the problem only arises once you collected all red coins and the key appeared and you died?
It should be fine for most of my levels as I only use red coins to unlock a warp box in SM3DW to go to another area with a flag right after.

Can't wait to play your levels and publish mine all at once (I only played and created offline so far), I'm waiting for a good number of levels to share before subscribing to NSO. Spent 40 hours on 5 levels ^ ^
No hazard after the door, because if you're killed there, you restart from scratch with no key and a locked door (unless there's a checkpoint after the door, of course). The problem only happens after you have the key.

I know the feeling of subscribing just for this game, I actually bought my Switch for this game (I'll use it for some other games, of course, but it made be buy the console, now I mostly play on PC).

Dude, how do you knw they're teenagers? ^^
When the username is something like "littletimmy" with a very young looking avatar and level names like "aaaaaaaaaaa" with all bosses in a row and a star, chances are it's a kid or a teenager ;-) (I'm pushing it, but you get the idea).
Anyway, I'm glad you took my criticism well, it reread my post several times because I didn't want to discourage you, but I really wanted to tell you my genuine experience.

Man getting plays is so hard right now. My Donkey Kong level has 19 likes / 28 plays which is a great (and obviously unsustainable) ratio but I just can’t get plays on it! I’ve been hitting up the reddit thread but I’m not sure where else to go.
You can get a few plays on Nintendo Life.

--

Feedback:

Madame Goomba's House of Vice
LCM-335-37G

"Make use of the Goomba's Stiletto to shut down the madame's illicit house!"
Pleasant level, but it the theming and mechanics feel a bit underused.

"Movin' Platform Panic"

8BM GH1 L1G
I loved it! Perfect classic, open Mario design with tons of optional challenges and a joyous atmosphere!

Made a new level, expecting it to be boo'd unmercifully (in fact, it already has on its first play!)..... because it's a castle encased in ice blocks.
Apart from the "boss" which didn't feel necessary, I really enjoyed it!

It's a shame, by the way, that Mario Maker items don't interact more with each other: it'd be fun to have ice that melts in contact with fireballs (or skewers that interact with other skewers/enemies, etc.).

Dry Dry Cliff

I wanted to try the vertical mode and the new 3D World style. This level is focused on wall jumping and using enemies as platforms to scale a tall cliff. I was aiming for a 15%ish level of difficulty? How did I do?

Jump Towards The Light

In this level you must turn the lights on or off too find your way to the goal. Jumping and staying with light sources is the key to success. I was aiming for a 20%ish level of difficulty. I hope that as you play through all my levels they progressively get easier.
Jump Towards The Light is a risky concept, but I enjoyed and liked it. Still:

- You just can't see the Dry Bones. You can somewhat guess there's a Dry Bones at some place (you take a glimpse of some white pixels), but you can't aim properly to avoid it. They're all unfair hits or lucky passes.
- When you fall following the lava bubble, you don't align on it to avoid hitting it, and if you position yourself on its right, you fall into the void.
- There's a jump where you see the ON/OFF switch at the last moment, so you see something suddenly ahead of you, you stop going forward as a reflex, you fall and you die.
- Why no Fire Mario? Seems like a missed opportunity.

I played Dry Dry Cliff a bit, but quit when we're attacked by Thwomps that fall from off-screen. Before that, it's pleasant, but it lacks flow and intuitiveness: I didn't understand the wall jump with the two spike blocks at the beginning (the positioning is weird), and there are holes that are unpleasant to get in during wall jumps because they're just the right size. Moving around in the level isn't natural enough IMHO.
 

Butane

Member
Nov 2, 2017
83
Apart from the "boss" which didn't feel necessary, I really enjoyed it!

It's a shame, by the way, that Mario Maker items don't interact more with each other: it'd be fun to have ice that melts in contact with fireballs (or skewers that interact with other skewers/enemies, etc.).
Yeah, initially what I wanted to do was have a giant winged thwomp that flew back and forth over the stage and you had to get it to fall into the lava to defeat it. Ran into a lot of problems:

1: Large Thwomps destroy all ice blocks and not a single row
2: If you attach a key to a Thwomp and it falls into lava, it doesn't actually die and you never get the key

Then tried to do something with skewers that would eventually uncover the pipe, but nothing worked.

Basically the bombs were what I settled with. Can't say I'm happy with them, but I can't think of anything else right now, and adding in any more platforming on the ice feels like that gimmick would be overstaying its welcome.
 

Solid SOAP

Member
Nov 27, 2017
965
Just some feedback:

Bouncing?...Among The Clouds

My Second level. Bounce towards the goal. Try to get as many coins as you can as an added challenge.. I made it so that there can be two bouncy donuts for multiplayer. Good luck beating it that way though. I was aiming for 10% clear rate difficulty. Do you think I achieved that?



Dry Dry Cliff

I wanted to try the vertical mode and the new 3D World style. This level is focused on wall jumping and using enemies as platforms to scale a tall cliff. I was aiming for a 15%ish level of difficulty? How did I do?



Cool Cool Valley

I made this today. It's a fairly "chill" level. I made it so that you never have to press the run button. You have to use those twister enemies to make your way to the goal. I was aiming for a 30%ish level of difficulty. I'd appreciate any criticism.


VIDEO

I want to make "sequels" to a few of these. Which would you recommend?
Your levels were quite fun! Really, I enjoyed them all and see great potential in your future levels. I have some feedback for each:

Bouncing?... Among the Clouds!

When I played this level there was a 3% completion, now there is just over 4. Really!? I found the secret door in the beginning and cheesed the whole thing. A blatantly obvious cheesing, might I add, and commend you for. I really liked how willing to reward skilled players you were with this intro sequence.

That being said... the base level is brutal, and I can totally understand the low percentage. Quite easily cheesable with the cape, but without it, it's a damn nightmare! Bravo.

Dry Dry Cliff

Fun 3D World level! The more I experiment with this style, and play levels made in it, the more I yearn for more options within it. The camera seems too close to the player, there's no where near enough options and tools, etc.

This was a very fun level though... Albeit one that was quite long, and with questionable telegraphing. Specifically during the Thwomp sections. I could never quite figure out where they would come until I died. I also had to make a bland jump from the right side of the screen to the left before the ending section. Otherwise, awesome level you clear put a ton of care into.

Cool Cool Valley

Nice change of pace from the last level! Felt like a classic Mario level from beginning to end. You were oddly generous with the Yoshi distribution, considering the raw difficulty of many of your other levels. Nice stuff!

New level, because why not?

Le Lièvre et la Tortue (The Hare and the Tortoise)
BTX-1BK-VMF

Cute, fun level! Felt like one of the mini challenge stages from 3D World but with a bit more length to it. Would love to see a more complex level of yours that implements this mechanic within it.
 

Wijuci

Member
Jan 16, 2018
1,293
Man getting plays is so hard right now. My Donkey Kong level has 19 likes / 28 plays which is a great (and obviously unsustainable) ratio but I just can’t get plays on it! I’ve been hitting up the reddit thread but I’m not sure where else to go.
The next step is going on Twitch, looking for streamers with a handful of viewers (so the queue isn't too long), and give them your level to play. In my experience, if you keep this like/play ration with more than 50 plays, you get into the Popular tab and get even more exposure.

I'm also learning a lot from you, especially how you can use ON/OFF blocks to control the spawns. That is brilliant, and I'm planning to use that a lot for my next course.
I totally stole the same thing from CaptainMatilder for my Déjà Boo 7 level because it's genius but... it's really hard to do with Boos because they don't start moving immediately, so I'm not super pleased with the result and will try it again by stealing it some more.

This was incredible, took me a while to figure out what was going on with the scroll locks, and I'm not entirely sure how much of my progression was conscious and how much was just going around randomly until things happened.
I ran out of time once, and finished the level right before running out again.
But I had a blast anyway. Great job!
Thank you!
Timing out just once is actually great.

Anyway, I'm glad you took my criticism well, it reread my post several times because I didn't want to discourage you, but I really wanted to tell you my genuine experience.
Oh don't worry, I really do appreciate any kind of feedback, especially from people like you that go deep into it.
And I was very conscious of what kind of level I was making (a meaty one ^^) so it's totally fair.

It really isn't like when I built this huge and complicated Space level once, completely by accident, that I had to cut in three smaller levels afterward when I saw someone actually play it and realized how stupidily tedious it was.

Just played this one. Holy shit. I never played that scrollstop forest course one.
This. Is. Freaking. Insane. And. Soooooo. Cool.
Thank you very much!
I love everything about the scrollstop tech except for the fact that you have to leave the top half of the course completely empty, which is really hard to build around sometimes.

This was just a very splashy way to show the tech, I hope I'll be able to use it more subtly next time.
 

Servbot24

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
18,928
Oh man, just beat the toughest level I've played yet. What a journey. SXJ-VFJ-Y1G if you're curious to try it out, lots of dodging hammers. Currently a .12% clear rate.
 
May 27, 2018
841
I love everything about the scrollstop tech except for the fact that you have to leave the top half of the course completely empty, which is really hard to build around sometimes.

This was just a very splashy way to show the tech, I hope I'll be able to use it more subtly next time.
I was quite the adventure. Got timed out twice and once directly in front of the goal. I could have sworn in Mario Maker 1 the big Mushroom Mario is able to walk through brickblocks. Maybe I remember it wrong. And I understand now your fear of cheesing and softlocking before. As an outsider the whole course looks really complex. You had to design certain parts of the course, so they are not accessible anymore after you get the Big Mushroom. I don't even think you open every key door, haha. So cool. Probably really cool course to show streamers.

I totally stole the same thing from CaptainMatilder for my Déjà Boo 7 level because it's genius but... it's really hard to do with Boos because they don't start moving immediately, so I'm not super pleased with the result and will try it again by stealing it some more.
I'm also learning a lot from you, especially how you can use ON/OFF blocks to control the spawns. That is brilliant, and I'm planning to use that a lot for my next course.
Ya, it depends on the enemy. Some enemies can't be spawn trapped because they are on a different layer. Cheep-Cheep for example. They don't have any collision, swimming in front of ground blocks et cetera. So when placing an ON/OFF block with it, he just swims in front of it. You don't even have to leave or reset the area with a door or pipe. As long as the ON/OFF switch block is pressed outside of the trapped enemies spawn radius, they will spawn when approaching them again.


Le Lièvre et la Tortue (The Hare and the Tortoise)
BTX-1BK-VMF



This level is a bit peculiar. While playing online with random levels, I'm always annoyed when blinking blocks are simply used to stop the player and make him wait for the blocks to blink. "They're not supposed to be used like that", I mumble, "they're supposed to change the level design and make the player adapt to it without breaking the flow". So I finally decided to make a level about that, and one thing leading to another, I built this tower made 95% of blinking blocks. In this level, you never have to wait, there is always a way up, but beware of the shift. It should be compatible with many play styles, I tested it for a week using different styles.
Played it yesterday. I am a big fan of those blinking blocks. Because I was watching a video on netflix at the same time, I didn't have any sound which is a lot more challenging, haha. That's also the reason I died once because I didn't realize time was crucial. Probably not the best way to play the course. Still, cool one. Might try to get WR.
 
Last edited:
Oct 25, 2017
1,571
The screaming ghosts really make that level. It’s so satisfying because of how honestly infuriatingly complex the rest of the level is. It’s really cathartic.
 

Wijuci

Member
Jan 16, 2018
1,293
I'm quoting this to remember to play it tonight.

And I understand now your fear of cheesing and softlocking before. As an outsider the whole course looks really complex. You had to design certain parts of the course, so they are not accessible anymore after you get the Big Mushroom. I don't even think you open every key door, haha.
Yeah, securing the final part when you're big was challenging.
Securing the pipes was fine, I guess, even if I learned in this very thread that I missed one. But I also had to secure the access to the locked doors that you had taken earlier in the level but... could have been reset to "locked" because you died after a checkpoint. Didn't want the player to use the final red coins key on a door he already took.
This was more challenging and forced me to use a little more red/blue blocks that I wanted. Thus the end is less elegant than planned (because I had to add a R/B switch with the final coin that the player is reaquired to hit several times). Oh, well.


So cool. Probably really cool course to show streamers.
I had good reactions so far!
But only because I'm only showing it to streamers I know are into these kinds of things after the bad experience I had with Déjà Boo 8.


The screaming ghosts really make that level. It’s so satisfying because of how honestly infuriatingly complex the rest of the level is. It’s really cathartic.
Thanks! Cathartic is exactly what I was aiming for.

(I also find the amount of screams hilarious, for some reason. )
 

FairyEmpire

Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,895
Is it just me or is the NSMBU theme really underutilized?
If anything it's overutilized, that along with the 3D World style. I feel that some of the advanced movement (the cat mario dive, walljumps, etc.) are not quite as polished or ideal for level building as the ones in 2D styles, thanks to excessive reach making most platforming trivial and some collision/input issues as well. The Z-spin works like a charm on the World style, then half of the time it doesn't function properly on the New style. I have no idea why's that, but it makes me avoid most levels in that style.
 
Oct 29, 2017
956
As a challenge to myself, I wanted to create an easy level for a change. Given my track record of making courses that end up in the 4-15% completion rate, behold a super simple Mario 1 stage designed with the intention of it fitting into World 1 in terms of difficulty and complexity (or lack thereof) to change things up. It's also my first Mario 1 themed stage and is WAY shorter than my usual levels.



Toadstool Trail Gallery
Description: Mario's leisurely stroll is interrupted by some unwelcome guests!

If you give it a try I'd love to hear what you think! And if you have kids who need beginner levels to play, this would probably be perfect for that.
 
Last edited:

Herb Alpert

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,168
Paris, France
Out of boredom, lack of inspiration and nihilism, I made a flappy bird level.
Come and feel the nostalgia of a time when gaming was more simple and charming (lol)

BC3-2YN-YVF




sorry
 

Wijuci

Member
Jan 16, 2018
1,293
I'm sorry Simbabbad, it's still not the speedrun I promised... :)



Déjà Boo 10 : Déjà Boo
ID: L73-6BB-WQG

Are you 100% sure you haven't played this level before?

Yes, I'm going meta.
This lovely level is either a celebration of the nine courses before it, or a clear sign of creative bankruptcy. I'll let you decide.

...

It's both.
The answer is "both".

Anyway, most of you know the drill, this is a Ghost House level.
This time, however, most of you really know the drill.

I'm not saying more. It's way shorter than the previous one, pretty straightforward, and for once I tried to balance the puzzle and platforming sequences.
Hopefully nothing is broken and you enjoy it.


And since this is an anniversary level, here are the various entries in case you missed them:
- Déjà Boo All Over Again (9WS HYB 1QG): a short puzzle where player keep killing themselves on purpose on a single Chomp (I'll show you the death marks someday, it's hilarious).
- Déjà Boo 2 : Electric Boo-galoo (LWW T4Q B1H): this one is a pure maze/puzzle, which I made way less tedious in this revision.
- Déjà Boo 3 : Tokyo Drift (N2J B60 F1H): this one is also a pure maze/puzzle, and I always forget how to solve it.
- Déjà Boo 4 : The Re-Boo-t Remade (65P 0RV 7DF): a return to basics, a simpler maze with a fun twist.
- Déjà Boo 5 : Creative Boo-kruptcy (HH7 0GR SJF): a puzzle with bits of platforming
- Déjà Boo 6 : Boo-ater is Wet (FMS YHS 3KG): even more platforming than ever before in a complicated but very solveable maze.
- Déjà Boo 7 : A Boo de Nerfs (3LB CXB 62H): pure platforming, and you've got to run!
- Déjà Boo 8 : Free Hugs (QFH 5W6 R2G): pure puzzle, very fun twist in the end (if you don't die first because I made a stupid design mistake)
- Déjà Boo 9 : Art Show (2C7 PDY 8FG): a very, very long puzzle
 

J-Spot

Member
Oct 27, 2017
243
I've been doing a lot of playing but it's been about three weeks since I've uploaded a new stage.


Colossal Creek
Course ID: QYP-0YG-BTG
Difficulty: Normal
Multiplayer Friendly?: Yes


This one should be fairly simple. It's a traditional left to right platforming stage that will hopefully be good for speedrunning or versus mode with the only real game play gimmick being the big enemies and multi-layered mushroom platforms. I wanted to use the big mushroom as a tiered power-up in a way you might see it in a traditional Mario game where it wouldn't become the main focus of the stage. There's a couple of bonuses you can get with it as well as some moments where it can make life harder for you or you can use it to mess up your multiplayer opponents, but it's never essential.
 

GokouD

Member
Oct 30, 2017
353
Mario Is Missing

L35-B3L-TMG
A short puzzle level this time, the puzzles have to be solved with just an on/off switch. Nothing too difficult, because there was no room for reset doors with this setup, so each screen had to un-failable. Let me know if you manage to get stuck, that's my main worry with this one!
Probably my last level for a while, going to be playing Astral Chain for a bit I think.
 

Naar

Member
Oct 29, 2017
428
I am back from my trip and ready to play your levels again!

I am gonna assume you guys have tons of levels for me by now!

Gonna go live in about 30 minutes. Just need to adjust somethings

Www.twitch.tv/naar82
 

Simbabbad

Member
Aug 1, 2019
32
Just went through the Endless Challenge in Normal for an hour:
  • 90% of the levels were absolutely terrible to the point of being caricatures.
  • I don't know what cultural phenomenon could explain how trollish and bad Japanese levels generally are.
  • I watched the statistics of every level: all bad levels had an awful like/visit ratio, good or decent levels had a good like/visit ratio. So people generally rate accordingly to the quality of the levels: why, oh why does the game seem to ignore its own rating system and not favour good levels? There must be enough good/decent levels out there so that I only have to play good/decent levels in the Endless Challenge, WHY does the game make me go through all those shitty levels that are rated as shitty with 60+ visits already? We're way beyond giving a second chance to levels with bad ratings, here.
  • There is no way, no "reward", mechanic or reason that'd make me go through this again.
  • Let's not even talk about so-called Expert or Super Expert.
  • I don't understand how "trending" works since a lot of levels with a poor or mediocre like/visit ratio are in "trending".
The game has been released two months ago, and it seems to be over already. People talk less and less about it, it's played less and less, and it's not hard to see why. Sure, it's not a favorable time right now, but I thought the popularity of the Switch would improve things significantly compared to the first Super Mario Maker.
 
Oct 25, 2017
1,571
I agree that it's very disappointing how the game's activity has fallen off so fast. Endless has a lot to do with it IMO. Endless is garbage. There's no reason to play it because the average level you come across is garbage. It's just not fun.
 

Simbabbad

Member
Aug 1, 2019
32
I agree that it's very disappointing how the game's activity has fallen off so fast. Endless has a lot to do with it IMO. Endless is garbage. There's no reason to play it because the average level you come across is garbage. It's just not fun.
What's incredibly frustrating is all the tools to improve it are there, but they don't use them. I wonder why we use likes and boos, it doesn't seem to do anything for Endless. And every other mode to explore levels favours popularity (always the same sort of levels), there is no mode focusing on like/visit ratio, not even "trending" which works bizarrely.

The first Mario Maker died pretty quickly, but it could be blamed on other factors (the popularity of the Wii U, the lack of tools like checkpoints, the game being the first in its series, people making terrible levels, etc.). Here, they have no excuse.

This game made me buy a Switch, and I'm starting to regret it. I have several finished levels that are not published yet, and I'm wondering if it's even worth putting them online. The game had basically one month of activity.
 

Error 52

Member
Nov 1, 2017
1,753
The game has been released two months ago, and it seems to be over already. People talk less and less about it, it's played less and less, and it's not hard to see why. Sure, it's not a favorable time right now, but I thought the popularity of the Switch would improve things significantly compared to the first Super Mario Maker.
I mean, I've still seen a decent amount of viral tweets showing crazy shit, a lot of YouTube LPers are still playing it, it's still got a fairly dedicated Twitch audience, great levels are still coming out left and right for it...

What do you want, exactly? Yeah, it's not like the first month where SMM2 was absolutely dominating anything, but that's to be expected. I've seen this attitude lately that if a game isn't 100% the point of all video game discussion then it's "dead" and it's fucking duuuumb.
 
Oct 25, 2017
1,840
The first Mario Maker died pretty quickly, but it could be blamed on other factors (the popularity of the Wii U, the lack of tools like checkpoints, the game being the first in its series, people making terrible levels, etc.). Here, they have no excuse.

This game made me buy a Switch, and I'm starting to regret it. I have several finished levels that are not published yet, and I'm wondering if it's even worth putting them online. The game had basically one month of activity.
I mean, I've still seen a decent amount of viral tweets showing crazy shit, a lot of YouTube LPers are still playing it, it's still got a fairly dedicated Twitch audience, great levels are still coming out left and right for it...

What do you want, exactly? Yeah, it's not like the first month where SMM2 was absolutely dominating anything, but that's to be expected. I've seen this attitude lately that if a game isn't 100% the point of all video game discussion then it's "dead" and it's fucking duuuumb.
Okay, I just came back after two weeks off (due to travel and Fire Emblem), delighted to find dozens of levels by quality makers waiting for me in my subscription feed, and I already sat through this argument on somebody's Twitch stream yesterday. So in lieu of combing through the last few pages to comment on some of the levels I've caught up on so far, let me offer a different perspective on this.

I dropped off SMM1 by early 2016 because I had no decent ideas and too much else to play (and not so much because of the quality problem, as I learnt pretty quickly to ignore 100-Mario and grab my codes off tight, focused communities like our old board). I got sucked back into it earlier this year, 2019, and the experience was incredible: let's just say the Wii U was my most-played platform this year until SMM2 came out. And as I combed through hundreds of levels I had missed, I paid close attention to the upload dates to get a sense of the general trends of what to expect for SMM2.

From my experience, I would go as far as to say that SMM1 didn't start until the casual audience fell off. I saw countless spectacular creations that could not have existed in the first months of the game (either because they took weeks to put together, or depended on mechanical knowledge of the engine that hadn't been cracked open yet, or relied on features that were patched in late like bumpers and checkpoints)—and most people, including die-hard high-quality creators who burnt themselves out by cranking out twenty levels in September 2015, missed out on just how good things became. It's not like SMM2 picked up right where SMM1 left off, too, as we've only had so much time to come to grips with the new elements and study how players read them.

It's healthy to let the game slow down. Given the activity in this thread in the first few weeks, I think it's easy to lose perspective on just how quickly many of you have been cranking out content. You can't expect the initial rush to last for any game on any platform. Some of you here turned out creations so outrageously successful that I hear you talking about a few hundred plays, or a likes ratio of 25%, as though they were a sad and tragic thing. I witness a churn of Twitch viewer submissions every day from people who would kill for the sort of numbers that make certain folks here feel neglected and depressed.

We are not yet at the point where truly ambitious projects that take a few weeks or months to make have even sprung into existence. This game has years of life left in it, and I think those who are intrinsically interested in Mario making enough to stick with the game will find themselves handsomely rewarded. In the meantime, there's no need to kick yourselves for having "maker's block" because you haven't made anything in a week, or check your maker points every day and panic that the numbers have barely moved.

*

Also: the way the Popular tab works, I actually think many people here have a better shot at getting more plays in the presence of a smaller overall casual audience. This might sound counterintuitive, so let me explain.

When you have a level that's off to a very good start (a 50% likes ratio and about 100 plays), it climbs the top list. A lot of you have experienced this already. And there it runs headfirst into the casual base that depends entirely on the in-game tools for finding levels. The level then meets one of two fates. For stages that are a good fit for casual players, your likes and plays rocket into the stratosphere. For stages that were never really meant for that audience to begin with (but which got a great start via code-sharing with other people who are serious about Mario Maker), running into them is a bit of a curse: you get a brief boost from the leaderboard, but then the casual players pummel you back to earth.

As the audience matures and the median level of game knowledge goes up in the player base, the second fate shouldn't be quite as vicious. People who make trickier, more elaborate, or more knowledge-dependent levels will have a better shot at meeting their intended audience before being slapped down.

I'm seeing something analogous on Twitch, too. SMM2 streamers are still pulling in numbers and building loyal follower/subscriber bases, but the viewer level queues are starting to thin out because the makers are all slowing down. That isn't a bad thing at all: the queues to get your own creations played are shorter now, and streamers are willing to be just a little more patient with sitting through them. It's a subtle change, but it's there. The competition for attention is shrinking faster than the audience (and it's worth remembering that SMM, like a healthy e-sport, sustains a big audience that would rather watch than play; SMM1 YouTubers were still pulling half a million views on some videos in early 2019, and you can bet that most of this came from people who never owned a Wii U).

And as far as play numbers and the casual audience are concerned, it's also worth remembering that a monstrous percentage of Nintendo's sales come over the holiday season.

*

We're two months in. The audience numbers from the launch period would be unsustainable for any game. SMM1 in 2019 was healthier than people give it credit for, particularly on YouTube and Twitch, and wasn't really decisively killed until the release of SMM2. (On forums like this especially, where everything gets shoved under the Hangouts rug after a month, people too quickly accuse anything that isn't the hot Fortnite-scale trendsetter of being "dead" while ignoring how stable the player bases really are.) It was surprisingly active as the last holdout on a platform that was dead, discontinued, and generally unobtainable unless you went out of your way for it.

SMM2 is in a healthy state and there's no need to panic like some Twitch streamers are doing because WoW Classic is the hot new thing that's vacuuming up the casual crowd, while Nintendo players are bunkered up for one of the busiest first-party seasons we've ever seen (or still buried in Fire Emblem). Of course the play numbers will go down, when even Mario Maker obsessives like myself are taking breaks to play other games. But this time around, the community infrastructure is already in place and the baseline of interest is several times higher. That was never going to change the trend that every big release goes through when the casual crowd moves on.

The worst thing you can do to your own interest in SMM2 is to burn yourself out now and never return. You'll miss so much good stuff, much of which will inspire your own good stuff. For my part, I know that I would be very happy from this point on just to crank out one level a month (and even that seems ambitious).

This is a game where it's fine to walk away for a few weeks or months when you're not feeling up for Mario. The levels will still be here when you come back (and if you have a good subscription list, or if you keep track of codes for interesting-looking creations even when you're not playing, you'll actually be overwhelmed with content when you return). You're all pushing yourselves so hard, while I'm over here wondering how long it's going to take me to catch up on the good levels and profiles here.

I will say that we desperately need the out-of-game bookmark site (and in general, a bookmark feature separate from the Like button). That's a necessary fixture for coming back to SMM from long breaks. My notepad of codes I haven't gotten to yet, and might not get to for weeks, is growing frightfully long.

*

If there is a sense of panic right now that the game is dropping off a cliff, a huge part of the problem is that everybody is burning themselves out, including the fellow makers that are in your pool of players. Slow down.
 
Last edited:
Oct 25, 2017
1,840
I've never been happier to have skipped out on that game.
Well, all of those things were patched in, and it was worthwhile to have an early period of learning and experimentation where hardly anybody was making anything good. (As a player, this was probably not so pleasant.) Checkpoints and conditional power-ups were the biggest requests from day one, and they came in at the two-month mark (where we are now with SMM2). Like I said, SMM1 was so much better judging by the content that was turned out from 2017 onwards than during the messy launch, but by then the Switch was out and most people had stopped thinking about their Wii Us, if they ever had one to begin with.

I played the complete SMM1 profiles of many of the people here who came roaring out of the gate with high-quality levels in SMM2. Everyone who came into the new game with SMM1 experience learnt a lot of things the hard way, and I'm sure many of them would be embarrassed to think back to the roughness and bugginess of their 2015 output (I definitely am). They're good at what they do because they already got their crap out of the way. But again: September and October 2015 certainly must have been awful for anyone who picked up the game with the intention of playing more than making, and as a player, you didn't miss much worth keeping.
 

Dyle

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
8,452
Wisconsin
It feels like Mario Maker 2 came out way longer than 2 months ago, the game's trajectory for me has definitely gone from 100-0. I think it's due to a combination of three interconnected things, the lack of unlockables, the lack of patches, and the lack of official levels. Those were the things that kept me playing Mario Maker 1 and I really hope they all return soon. Obviously there will be updates, but the radio silence since release is not promising. As much as I like playing good levels, that isn't the carrot that really keeps me playing; I need to fill up a meter somehow and feel like I'm accomplishing something, and Mario Maker 2 is a step back in that regard.

That's a big part of why I play Splatoon, the game itself is always fun, but I come back every month to try to improve my x rank, or to level up during the splatfests, or to fill the salmon run meter. Without those kinds of hooks, which of course have their own issues, I'm much more likely to burn out and lose interest. I sincerely hope that they approach SMM2 as a serious WIP and take a scalpel to it rather than just trying to add/fix it with bandages. It needs core fundamental changes/additions that do more to change the core experience than add to the items that can be used in levels.

At its core this problem has been the same one that games focused on UGC have always had to deal with, it's hard to develop a loop that will satisfy players. Ultimately the player has to make their own fun, which can be perfectly fine but differs wildly from player to player. What's disappointing here is that I think Mario Maker 1, at least in its mature state, did a better job of this than Mario Maker 2 does today, which feels like a needless regression. Endless is less satisfying than 100 Man Mario was, due to not having unlocks tied to it. The idea of going for a high score could be interesting, but you aren't rewarded for that high score besides your own satisfaction, so a meaningful tangible reward was replaced with a subjective, intangible one. Multiplayer vs might have filled the void, but the ranking system feels too arbitrary. The numbers involved are so big that once you plateau they become meaningless. I'm stuck in A between 3300 and 3500 and haven't moved up or down since I got there two weeks after release. It seems like nothing will get me beyond that point and the way to get there is random enough that I cannot control it, so why play it at that point, the ranking means nothing. So while a great addition, that doesn't inspire me to be more involved either and doesn't make up for what happened to 100 Mario, and makes it feel like an overall downgrade. Then there are the promo levels, which brought in weird properties, added costumes to use, and provided everyone with a set of solid, if not particularly strong, levels that were a point of discussion and commonality in a community that is typically going in all different directions. They were the blockbusters, the metaphorical water cooler levels, and without them it feels like nothing is going on. Without these things interacting together it makes things feel less lively and interesting than they would otherwise. It's the same idea as an urban planner trying to keep a town alive, you need to provide a stimulus to get people to visit the town square, and once they're there they'll stop in all the shops and get a snack at the cafe. Right now Mario Maker 2 is lacking that stimulus and it's contributing to the sense of burnout or disappointment
 
Last edited: