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Alexandros

Member
Oct 26, 2017
17,800
Why are people mad, why simply NOT BUY THE GOD DAMN GAME and vote with your wallet. If you are not happy just DON'T buy it and find another game to play.

I can do that and protest loudly and publicly about a business decision I don't like. Is there any reason I shouldn't?

Only some developers wanted curation. Others, while admitting that competion on Steam was fierce, remember the days of when they wouldn't even be able to get onto Steam to begin with and don't want to go back to that.

What is really disappointing is that I would have expected some of these developers to remember those days.

Indeed. It's disappointing to see people arguing for visibility at the expense of other developers. This is what Epic-style 'curation' boils down to. One game gets exposure, fifty other games languish in obscurity. This was the situation before Steam opened up and the people that are now vilified by developers for speaking up against moneyhatting were on the developers' side, pressuring Valve to help them. People forget way too easily.

I'm pretty sure developers are taking the deal to improve their OWN landscape in the PC scene... Whether that means directly or indirectly making choices that could or could not affect Valve. We'll see.

I would respect such a decision if it didn't involve the monetary incentive. As it is, it's a straightforward moneyhat that the developers that accepted it are trying to present as some worthy cause. It can be both to some degree, but anyone claiming that the 'cause' was the main factor instead of cold hard cash is rather naive in my opinion.

The platform worship and "indies are visible" sentiment in here is fucking weird.

Jesus, try to at least kind of care about small developers.

You know what the irony here is? We, and by we I mean the group of people that have been part of the PC community on GAF and now on Era for years, care more about small developers than small developers care about us. Back when Valve was enforcing strict curation on Steam and small developers were protesting about that fact, many of the same people that posters like you are labeling as 'platform worshippers' were against Valve and on the developers' side.

A prominent example is Durante , who was very vocal about criticizing Valve back in the day for not letting smaller indie games on Steam and imposing artificial restrictions on what the customer would be able to buy. So what turned this defender of indie devs into a 'platform worshipper'? Absolutely nothing. His and everyone else's stance on artificial restrictions by platform holders has been consistent throughout the years and protesting against them was targeted first AGAINST Valve and now against Epic.

So you are free to label people as much as you want, since the site's moderation doesn't seem too keen on putting a stop to it, but you're wrong.
 

Skelepuzzle

Member
Apr 17, 2018
6,119
I can do that and protest loudly and publicly about a business decision I don't like. Is there any reason I shouldn't?



Indeed. It's disappointing to see people arguing for visibility at the expense of other developers. This is what Epic-style 'curation' boils down to. One game gets exposure, fifty other games languish in obscurity. This was the situation before Steam opened up and the people that are now vilified by developers for speaking up against moneyhatting were on the developers' side, pressuring Valve to help them. People forget way too easily.



I would respect such a decision if it didn't involve the monetary incentive. As it is, it's a straightforward moneyhat that the developers that accepted it are trying to present as some worthy cause. It can be both to some degree, but anyone claiming that the 'cause' was the main factor instead of cold hard cash is rather naive in my opinion.



You know what the irony here is? We, and by we I mean the group of people that have been part of the PC community on GAF and now on Era for years, care more about small developers than small developers care about us. Back when Valve was enforcing strict curation on Steam and small developers were protesting about that fact, many of the same people that posters like you are labeling as 'platform worshippers' were against Valve and on the developers' side.

A prominent example is Durante , who was very vocal about criticizing Valve back in the day for not letting smaller indie games on Steam and imposing artificial restrictions on what the customer would be able to buy. So what turned this defender of indie devs into a 'platform worshipper'? Absolutely nothing. His and everyone else's stance on artificial restrictions by platform holders has been consistent throughout the years and protesting against them was targeted first AGAINST Valve and now against Epic.

So you are free to label people as much as you want, since the site's moderation doesn't seem too keen on putting a stop to it, but you're wrong.

I am a small developer. Being so distrustful of competition to label "compeition" in quotes and say visibility isn't an issue is bonkers.

I'm not saying "down with valve," I'm saying that multiple storefronts helps keep everyone honest.
 

TSM

Member
Oct 27, 2017
5,821
This is obviously what it takes to start a store to compete with Steam. If they just offered feature parity and the same games for the same prices why would anyone bother with them? I don't really see any point in judging where the Epic store is now. Hell the games are only a 1 year timed exclusive, so if you are patient they'll be on Steam at some point in the future. A true Steam competitor would be great on PC, so I guess we'll have to wait and see how this plays out.
 

dex3108

Member
Oct 26, 2017
22,577
This is how much exposure 2.5 year old indie game without any significant online marketing gets.



 
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Nose Master

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,717
On the bright side, this is illuminating the crutch of "lol idk just make it a roguelike" bandaid for lack of content. RNG meatboy is the literal opposite of what the fans of the game want.
 

TheIlliterati

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
4,782
I for one am glad Epic is taking the smaller indie developers side and helping their lack of visibility among the throngs on Steam by making them completely invisible on their own store. In this way there's no false hope.
 

Alexandros

Member
Oct 26, 2017
17,800
I am a small developer. Being so distrustful of competition to label "compeition" in quotes and say visibility isn't an issue is bonkers.

I'm not saying "down with valve," I'm saying that multiple storefronts helps keep everyone honest.

The word 'competition' is in quotes and it will continue to be in quotes because Epic chose to not compete in terms of features, services, first-party content or price, all positive incentives for customers, but 'compete' by moneyhatting indie developers to not release their games on Steam, a negative incentive for customers. This sort of competition has no place on the platform in my opinion.

This is obviously what it takes to start a store to compete with Steam. If they just offered feature parity and the same games for the same prices why would anyone bother with them?

How about offering better services, original content or better prices? Actually positive incentives for customers?
 

GhostTrick

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,305
I am a small developer. Being so distrustful of competition to label "compeition" in quotes and say visibility isn't an issue is bonkers.

I'm not saying "down with valve," I'm saying that multiple storefronts helps keep everyone honest.



No one's against multiple storefronts.
In fact, make more storefronts.
People are against companies locking down 3rd party games to one storefronts because that storefront dont want to compete in terms of features, policy and price.
 

Skelepuzzle

Member
Apr 17, 2018
6,119
The word 'competition' is in quotes and it will continue to be in quotes because Epic chose to not compete in terms of features, services, first-party content or price, all positive incentives for customers, but 'compete' by moneyhatting indie developers to not release their games on Steam, a negative incentive for customers. This sort of competition has no place on the platform in my opinion.



How about offering better services, original content or better prices? Actually positive incentives for customers?
No one's against multiple storefronts.
In fact, make more storefronts.
People are against companies locking down 3rd party games to one storefronts because that storefront dont want to compete in terms of features, policy and price.

"Moneyhatting" means someone secures your ability to eat and keep making games because you adhere to their terms, in the case of small developers.

This is how exclusives work. God forbid that people in an industry that is extremely prone to failure and financial instability want to take a sure bet. You (the consumer) might have to get it from a different platform, oh no!
 
Oct 25, 2017
4,840
If this forces Valve to take their cut down to, say, 15%, this is a monumental win for everyone. I'm still in shock people don't realize this. The only things that are up for debate is if this will actually force Valve to do anything, which is doubtful unless developers migrate en masse to Epic's store (itself unlikely).
If Valve had to take their cut down, they would have to get money elsewhere. This could lead to the loss of one of the most important features of PC gaming today:
Free Steam key generation

If this gets taken away from us, we will lose Humble Bundles and almost all alternative stores available for PC games today. This would not be a monumental win for anyone, it would be an absolutely massive loss for everyone. Valve is taking 0% from Steam keys sold elsewhere but they still give you the download infrastructure.

As far as we currently know, Epic does not allow free key generation.
 

TSM

Member
Oct 27, 2017
5,821
How about offering better services, original content or better prices? Actually positive incentives for customers?

Sure, that might see some traction over the course of a couple years, but if they want immediate results this is pretty much the only route. It would be great if they also provided those benefits as well, and hopefully down the line in a few years they will.
 

Deleted member 3294

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
1,973
This is how much exposure 2.5 year old indie game without any significant online marketing gets.

*tweets*
*A 2.5 year old indie game that was shown during Sony's E3 press conference at the time, and received a lot of attention from press.

And it makes sense that Firewatch gets so much attention now after it got a ton of award nominations and since its developers joined Valve. It's very far from some unknown indie game.
 
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BernardoOne

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
10,289
"Moneyhatting" means someone secures your ability to eat and keep making games because you adhere to their terms, in the case of small developers.

This is how exclusives work. God forbid that people in an industry that is extremely prone to failure and financial instability want to take a sure bet. You (the consumer) might have to get it from a different platform, oh no!
These are not small developers. They all had plenty of success and visibility on Steam . Epic didn't really pick any struggling unknown Devs so far.
 

Skelepuzzle

Member
Apr 17, 2018
6,119
These are not small developers. They all had plenty of success and visibility on Steam . Epic didn't really pick any struggling unknown Devs so far.

Tommy put it on the platform with the intention of diversifying platforms and visbility! Devs will now engage with Epic to call out to them and see if they can get featured.
 

GhostTrick

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,305
"Moneyhatting" means someone secures your ability to eat and keep making games because you adhere to their terms, in the case of small developers.

This is how exclusives work. God forbid that people in an industry that is extremely prone to failure and financial instability want to take a sure bet. You (the consumer) might have to get it from a different platform, oh no!


1. We're talking about Team Meat here. Not "average indie dev releasing their first game developped while having a part time job". All the money hatted games so far either have a mid tier publisher backing them up or are big enough by themselves.

2. Yes ? I care about my interest first. This is a business. They owe me nothing, I owe them nothing. Now it all comes down to the mindset you want to make business.
There's the mindset in which, you put the consumer first to appeal them to you.
And the mindset in which you put your business first, in the hope consumers will come.

Basically this:
perspectivesv6e5w.png
 

Deleted member 10601

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
348
If Valve had to take their cut down, they would have to get money elsewhere. This could lead to the loss of one of the most important features of PC gaming today:
Free Steam key generation

If this gets taken away from us, we will lose Humble Bundles and almost all alternative stores available for PC games today. This would not be a monumental win for anyone, it would be an absolutely massive loss for everyone. Valve is taking 0% from Steam keys sold elsewhere but they still give you the download infrastructure.

Yep, true. This would also lead to a real monopoly of Valve/Steam as you can only buy the game on Steam and not in any of the many 3rd party stores.
 

Ge0force

Self-requested ban.
Banned
Oct 28, 2017
5,265
Belgium
How is it console like moneyhatting? You need to buy a new console to play these games, do you? Your existing PC does it just fine, so it's nothing alike.

That doesn't change the fact that it takes away the option to choose in what ecosystem a consumer can play these games. We really don't want store owners moneyhatting as much 3rd party games as possible. That's not healthy competition.
 

GrrImAFridge

ONE THOUSAND DOLLARYDOOS
Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,666
Western Australia
12 months is such a big gamble. I wonder if there's a clause in the distribution contract that allows developers to release their games on Steam sooner if launch window sales are below a certain amount.
 

Alexandros

Member
Oct 26, 2017
17,800
"Moneyhatting" means someone secures your ability to eat and keep making games because you adhere to their terms, in the case of small developers.

This is how exclusives work. God forbid that people in an industry that is extremely prone to failure and financial instability want to take a sure bet. You (the consumer) might have to get it from a different platform, oh no!

We know, that's why we are against them. You and other developers don't get to decide whether or not getting a game from another platform is a big deal for customers or not. You and other developers know that customers right now prefer Steam for a multitude of very good reasons. Deciding to go against that and accepting money for an exclusivity deal is your decision but you will be criticized for it and you may see reduced sales as a result. Developers do not have the authority to decide whether a customer's preference is important or not. If the platform is important to me, that's the end of it. Developers shouldn't expect customers to act as devoted fans when they themselves operate as businessmen.
 

wubbyz

Member
Oct 27, 2017
189
Getting mad at a business decision because the game isn't coming to your preferred store. Team meat gets financial security and epic gets exposure. You're free to not buy the game or download the epic store. I will do both when it comes out because super meat boy is dope.
 

Ge0force

Self-requested ban.
Banned
Oct 28, 2017
5,265
Belgium
I am a small developer. Being so distrustful of competition to label "compeition" in quotes and say visibility isn't an issue is bonkers.

I'm not saying "down with valve," I'm saying that multiple storefronts helps keep everyone honest.

No doubt about that. Multiple storefronts ARE necessary and I have no issues using other storefronts than Steam. But a store owner moneyhatting 3rd party exclusives to prevent them to release on competing storefronts is unacceptable for me. This isn't "honest" competition at all.

My advice: be sure to release your games in Epic's launcher if you value their policies, but be sure to release them in other popular stores as well so that your potential buyers have a CHOICE where to buy your games. And contact some popular curators who praised games similar to your own games. Give them a key to review your game and hope for the best.


"Moneyhatting" means someone secures your ability to eat and keep making games because you adhere to their terms, in the case of small developers.

Epic has only been moneyhatting devs who have already been (very) successful on other platforms. Let's wait and see if they are willing to moneyhat new or unknown developers as well. Pretty sure I know the answer already.
 
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dex3108

Member
Oct 26, 2017
22,577
*A 2.5 year old indie game that was shown during Sony's E3 press conference at the time, and received a lot of attention from press.

And it makes sense that Firewatch gets so much attention now after it got a ton of award nominations and since its developers joined Valve. It's very far from some unknown indie game.

Super Meat Boy is not unknown indie game. It is more famous than Firewatch.
 

Norgler

Member
Nov 13, 2017
322
Free unlimited key generation so devs can sell elsewhere, Linux support, Proton, universal controller support via Steam Input, Big Picture, cloud saving, regional pricing, forums, reviews, a freaking search feature.
Are we really putting the forums as a plus? The place is a cess pull full of Alt right kiddies.
 

GhostTrick

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,305
Are we really putting the forums as a plus? The place is a cess pull full of Alt right kiddies.



Yes we are. Sometimes, I can have an issue with a game. And 99% of the time, typing the error in the steam community forum of the game allows me to find a fix.
No matter how shit the community can be, it can also be useful.

I mean, let's just see what happened with Ashen. People had issues and had to post on the Steam forum.
 

floridaguy954

Member
Oct 29, 2017
3,631
From the article


Seems well reasoned enough.

I expect this will anger some people...
It'll just anger the devs to know that they have to wait a year for their sales to pick back up after a Steam release.

I have plenty of other games to play in the meantime and they will have definitely lost a ton of mindshare in a year.
 

SprachBrooks

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
1,353
Man, I'm sure glad to have to only browse the shitty PSN Store to buy my digital goods lol.

I'm looking forward to seeing how this will pan out. I've been out of the loop - but is the majority of PC gamer reaction to this move i.e. a new storefront, negative?
 

Zophop

Member
Apr 12, 2018
169
Good on Team Meat for supporting what they believe in and I hope it works out for them. Super Meat Boy was phenomenal and one of the first games that got me hooked when I got back into PC gaming.

Personally I'll be waiting until it hits Steam, presumably with a nice discount to make up for it being delayed a year, or once it hits a nice sale on consoles.
 

Pryme

Member
Aug 23, 2018
8,164
As an aside.

'Moneyhatting' was a stupid term back when it gained popularity in 2013 among console warriors, it's still a stupid term in 2018.

Can we stop using that childish term, please?
 

Rodjer

Self-requested ban.
Member
Jan 28, 2018
4,808
This is obviously what it takes to start a store to compete with Steam.

Wrong.

Think about this.

Ashen launching on GOG, Steam, Epic Games, Windows Store.

GOG --> People who love DRM-FREE games are going to pick this
Steam --> Classic 10% discount and all Steam features
Epic Games --> 88/12 and "Fortnite skin or something" to incentive developers and players
Windows Store --> Gamepass


That's the competition that everyone wants, not locking 3rd party games on your platform, i don't care if it's still PC or not, the platform or the store matters.
 

sredgrin

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
12,276
Are we really putting the forums as a plus? The place is a cess pull full of Alt right kiddies.

You don't have to like, browse them for discussion. They are helpful repositories of information, ESPECIALLY for games that aren't big enough to earn a dedicated subreddit.

I still get comment notifications on tech issues threads I started years ago that have solutions that help people.

Like Ashen even now has multiplayer issues on PC that took me forever to find confirmation of, and that's buried in lots of discussion about the Xbox version.
 

TSM

Member
Oct 27, 2017
5,821
Wrong.

Think about this.

Ashen launching on GOG, Steam, Epic Games, Windows Store.

GOG --> People who love DRM-FREE games are going to pick this
Steam --> Classic 10% discount and all Steam features
Epic Games --> 88/12 and "Fortnite skin or something" to incentive developers and players
Windows Store --> Gamepass


That's the competition that everyone wants, not locking 3rd party games on your platform, i don't care if it's still PC or not, the platform or the store matters.

That's basically the point. While you listed a bunch of competing stores, not one of those is truly competitive with Steam. We are a long way off from Epic approaching anything like that, but they think these are the first steps they need to take to get there.
 

Pryme

Member
Aug 23, 2018
8,164
My advice: be sure to release your games in Epic's launcher if you value their policies, but be sure to release them in other popular stores as well so that your potential buyers have a CHOICE where to buy your games. And contact some popular curators who praised games similar to your own games. Give them a key to review your game and hope for the best.

you are wilfully ignoring dev concerns and you keep steering the 'solution' to a direction that benefits only you.

If you take the devs motivation at face value (using competition to force Steam to reduce their cut), releasing on Steam will cripple their strategy as most people will just buy on Steam.

as we've seen on this enthusiast forum, many PC gamers have no interest in supporting small developers in their bid to get a fairer cut from Valve.
 

texhnolyze

Member
Oct 25, 2017
23,154
Indonesia
Are we really putting the forums as a plus? The place is a cess pull full of Alt right kiddies.
I use the forum to find troubleshoots, mods, or basic info like chance of controller support. I can even actually discuss about the game's story and mechanics with people there, especially for smaller/obscure games. I find it that the bigger the game is, the higher the chance it'll become toxic with trolls.
 
Oct 25, 2017
4,840
as we've seen on this enthusiast forum, many PC gamers have no interest in supporting small developers in their bid to get a fairer cut from Valve.
You can already sell Steam keys elsewhere. Valve will take 0% in this situation. They can put a Humble Widget to their website which will make Humble Bundle take care of payment processing and key distribution and the developers will get a 95% cut.

The 30% Steam Store cut is not unfair considering the key freedom we have. Valve is already providing downloads for free for anyone who gets games through key redemption.
 

Catshade

Member
Oct 26, 2017
2,198
If you take the devs motivation at face value (using competition to force Steam to reduce their cut), releasing on Steam will cripple their strategy as most people will just buy on Steam.

as we've seen on this enthusiast forum, many PC gamers have no interest in supporting small developers in their bid to get a fairer cut from Valve.

Then they should have the balls to make it permanent exclusives (or at least permanent until Valve offer similar revenue shares) instead of this weak ass 12-month exclusives. They're not very motivated in forcing Steam to reduce their cut, are they?
 

Ge0force

Self-requested ban.
Banned
Oct 28, 2017
5,265
Belgium
Then they should have the balls to make it permanent exclusives (or at least permanent until Valve offer similar revenue shares) instead of this weak ass 12-month exclusives. They're not very motivated in forcing Steam to reduce their cut, are they?

Not only that: all these devs are still releasing their games on consoles, which also take a 30% cut.
 

GhostTrick

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,305
you are wilfully ignoring dev concerns and you keep steering the 'solution' to a direction that benefits only you.

If you take the devs motivation at face value (using competition to force Steam to reduce their cut), releasing on Steam will cripple their strategy as most people will just buy on Steam.

as we've seen on this enthusiast forum, many PC gamers have no interest in supporting small developers in their bid to get a fairer cut from Valve.


Well, yes ?
A better cut is good for them, not for me.
The same way a release on every store is good for me (although, good for them too, unless if they're bribed then it's better for them to accept the money).

As everyone said already: They owe me nothing. I owe them nothing.
 

xenocide

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,307
Vermont
Man, I'm sure glad to have to only browse the shitty PSN Store to buy my digital goods lol.

I'm looking forward to seeing how this will pan out. I've been out of the loop - but is the majority of PC gamer reaction to this move i.e. a new storefront, negative?

You can literally buy Digital Game codes for PSN all over the place—Amazon, Newegg, GameStop. You also have to option to buy a physical copy and completely ignore the digital storefront. Also consoles are not analogous to the PC marketplace. Consoles are more restrictive because you're literally buying an enclosed box full of proprietary equipment that can only connect to the manufacturers network. You're buying into a walled garden marketplace knowingly.
 
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Alexandros

Member
Oct 26, 2017
17,800
I'm looking forward to seeing how this will pan out. I've been out of the loop - but is the majority of PC gamer reaction to this move i.e. a new storefront, negative?

Very much so. The bulk of the people who support this have very little to non-existent posting activity in PC threads. On sites such as PC gamer the reaction is overwhelmingly negative.
 

Facism

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,918
Are we really putting the forums as a plus? The place is a cess pull full of Alt right kiddies.

Yes. I've had great utility out of them when it came to technical issues or general advice. It's not hard to filter out the dickheads instead of making them a part of a faux leftist progressive anger complex.