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Melpomene

One Winged Slayer
Member
Jun 9, 2019
18,282
Okay, so I'm good with saying Sakurai is ignorant and completely unconcerned with matters of representation, but I'm not entirely sure "Sakurai is opposed to civil rights" is a rational take, if I'm understanding the implications of it being an intentional parallel properly.
 

Ryce

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,281
User Banned (1 Month): Dismissiveness and inflammatory accusations towards concerns of implicit racism
This whole page is like a really bad parody of how alt-right gaming circles view ResetEra.

Super late edit: This post hasn't been sitting well with me, and I sincerely apologize for writing something so indefensibly flippant. This isn't the time or place for a dumb joke. I just think it's incredibly fucked up to casually accuse someone of something so heinous, but I should have been much more tactful in expressing that.
 
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mopinks

Member
Oct 27, 2017
30,561
I just assumed the gag here was "Rodin is dodging in a funny energetic way but Peach is cool as a cucumber"
 

Weiss

User requested ban
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
64,265
This whole page is like a really bad parody of how alt-right gaming circles view ResetEra.
I mean I don't think "an image of Mario hosing the only black character featured in the entire game" is that much of a stretch to draw a negative conclusion. It exists in the same space as those spirits of black characters that used Diddy and Donkey Kong.
 

Ryce

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,281
Why in the fuck do you give a fuck about what nazi's think. Let alone with a black person is lodging a complaint.

Holy shit
What? I don't care what they think. I'm just saying that this "argument" is aggressively ill-founded, especially considering the implication behind some of the language used against Sakurai. It's just a goofy screenshot of a mascot brawler. There's nothing more to it than that.
 

Melpomene

One Winged Slayer
Member
Jun 9, 2019
18,282
I mean, I really don't think there's a way in which the image doesn't come off with some degree of problematic implication. Either he's totally ignorant to what the image parallels, which is a horrible look for someone who's already criticized for failing at representation in Smash, or it's intentional, which is another can of worms entirely, and which I wouldn't feel comfortable implying in the absence of direct evidence to that point.

The best possible scenario is that he is aware of the parallel and it just slipped his mind because I don't think a great deal of thought on his part really goes into most of these posts. But for that to be plausible, we would need to see the post later be deleted/apologized for, which I rather doubt is something we'll see.
 

Ryce

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,281
I mean I don't think "an image of Mario hosing the only black character featured in the entire game" is that much of a stretch to draw a negative conclusion.
Maybe if it was just a random screenshot of Mario actually spraying Rodin, but Rodin and Peach are both humorously dodging the stream, and I think that's pretty clearly the intent behind the picture.
 

L Thammy

Spacenoid
Member
Oct 25, 2017
49,991
I don't really expect people to be familiar with the political history of another continent, but it's not my place to say who should or shouldn't be upset about this, and it's not the first racial sensitivity issue Ultimate has run into.
 

The Adder

Member
Oct 25, 2017
18,093
I don't really expect people to be familiar with the political history of another continent, but it's not my place to say who should or shouldn't be upset about this, and it's not the first racial sensitivity issue Ultimate has run into.
Japan has black people.
Japan has anti-black racism
Japan has literally the exact same sterotypes about black men taking their women as the US in their media

People need to stop acting like Japan is some isolated polyanna backwater or that Nintendo isn't a multi-billion dollar international corporation.
 

L Thammy

Spacenoid
Member
Oct 25, 2017
49,991
Japan has black people.
Japan has anti-black racism
Japan has literally the exact same sterotypes about black men taking their women as the US in their media

People need to stop acting like Japan is some isolated polyanna backwater or that Nintendo isn't a multi-billion dollar international corporation.
I'm not claiming that Japan doesn't have anti-Black racism, but the image that Neoxon used was from US history specifically. It would be good if he learned, but it's probably not equally likely to be covered in school everywhere.
 

Ryce

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,281
I don't really expect people to be familiar with the political history of another continent, but it's not my place to say who should or shouldn't be upset about this, and it's not the first racial sensitivity issue Ultimate has run into.
Oh, there's absolutely nothing wrong with being upset by it -- you can't control what imagery something might evoke -- but to call it intentional (which someone did) is something else entirely.
 

The Adder

Member
Oct 25, 2017
18,093
Oh, there's absolutely nothing wrong with being upset by it -- you can't control what imagery something might evoke -- but to call it intentional (which someone did) is something else entirely.
There are 80-some odd playable characters in this game, nary a one of them black outside of alyernate costumes.

There are literally dozens of assist trophies in this game.

There is a single black dude.

What landed Sakurai on Rodin for this pic?
 

jph139

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,373
The reality is, that Sakurai - being a middle-aged upper-class dude whose shown no real vocal anti-racist beliefs, works in a conservative company, and has a bit of history including racially insensitive content in games he's directed - is probably a little bit racist, out of ignorance at bare minimum, and possibly out of active or passive/internalized prejudices. He's not the first in the industry and it's doubtful he'll be the last. How comfortable you are with that is going to vary.

I mean, it's the same way with portrayal of female characters - he's talked shit about CERO being too strict more than once. He's a good game director, with a very old-school mentality, and with that comes some hard to defend choices when it comes to the portrayal of marginalized groups.
 

Melpomene

One Winged Slayer
Member
Jun 9, 2019
18,282
The reality is, that Sakurai - being a middle-aged upper-class dude whose shown no real vocal anti-racist beliefs, works in a conservative company, and has a bit of history including racially insensitive content in games he's directed - is probably a little bit racist, out of ignorance at bare minimum, and possibly out of active or passive/internalized prejudices. He's not the first in the industry and it's doubtful he'll be the last. How comfortable you are with that is going to vary.

I mean, it's the same way with portrayal of female characters - he's talked shit about CERO being too strict more than once. He's a good game director, with a very old-school mentality, and with that comes some hard to defend choices when it comes to the portrayal of marginalized groups.
Yeah, that's about where I'm at on it. He's very much "typical" in terms of what you might expect to be the norm for an older dude in a relatively high position at a company like Nintendo. I don't think he's out here using his PR account to intentionally send out racist messages by way of oblique references to American civil rights imagery, but I also don't think circumstances afford him the ability to dodge criticism when something like this is posted and does happen to be such a parallel. That people read into it is a direct consequence of his failings elsewhere, regardless his actual intent in posting this specific image.
 

mopinks

Member
Oct 27, 2017
30,561
There are 80-some odd playable characters in this game, nary a one of them black outside of alyernate costumes.

There are literally dozens of assist trophies in this game.

There is a single black dude.

What landed Sakurai on Rodin for this pic?
probably the pose

Isaac doesn't lift his leg up like that
 
Dec 30, 2020
15,254
...when I first saw it I genuinely thought it was Mario trying to cool off Rodan who was wearing an ankle-length leather jacket in tropical heat.

On reflection though it is making my "oh that's not good" senses go off.
 

L Thammy

Spacenoid
Member
Oct 25, 2017
49,991
The reality is, that Sakurai - being a middle-aged upper-class dude whose shown no real vocal anti-racist beliefs, works in a conservative company, and has a bit of history including racially insensitive content in games he's directed - is probably a little bit racist, out of ignorance at bare minimum, and possibly out of active or passive/internalized prejudices. He's not the first in the industry and it's doubtful he'll be the last. How comfortable you are with that is going to vary.

I mean, it's the same way with portrayal of female characters - he's talked shit about CERO being too strict more than once. He's a good game director, with a very old-school mentality, and with that comes some hard to defend choices when it comes to the portrayal of marginalized groups.
Yeah, that's about where I'm at on it. He's very much "typical" in terms of what you might expect to be the norm for an older dude in a relatively high position at a company like Nintendo. I don't think he's out here using his PR account to intentionally send out racist messages by way of oblique references to American civil rights imagery, but I also don't think circumstances afford him the ability to dodge criticism when something like this is posted and does happen to be such a parallel. That people read into it is a direct consequence of his failings elsewhere, regardless his actual intent in posting this specific image.
These sound about right to me.
 

Ryce

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,281
There are 80-some odd playable characters in this game, nary a one of them black outside of alyernate costumes.

There are literally dozens of assist trophies in this game.

There is a single black dude.

What landed Sakurai on Rodin for this pic?
Sakurai might have just wanted to show an assist trophy dodging and liked how dynamic Rodin's pose looked, maybe he wanted to reference Delfino Plaza being revealed in a Rodin screenshot, or maybe he didn't even care which AT randomly spawned. There are several possibilities that I believe are far more plausible than "Sakurai wanted to publicly and intentionally make light of the American civil rights movement by using Nintendo's billion dollar mascot as a stand-in for a racist firefighter."
 

mopinks

Member
Oct 27, 2017
30,561
There are a bunch of playable characters who do. And you wouldn't have to use developer mode to make them playable to do it either.

In fact, you know what playable character does a goofy pose for their spot dodge?

Fucking Bowser.
I don't think Bowser could get his leg up above the stream

it's pretty stubby
 

Neoxon

Spotlighting Black Excellence - Diversity Analyst
Member
Oct 25, 2017
85,298
Houston, TX
The reality is, that Sakurai - being a middle-aged upper-class dude whose shown no real vocal anti-racist beliefs, works in a conservative company, and has a bit of history including racially insensitive content in games he's directed - is probably a little bit racist, out of ignorance at bare minimum, and possibly out of active or passive/internalized prejudices. He's not the first in the industry and it's doubtful he'll be the last. How comfortable you are with that is going to vary.

I mean, it's the same way with portrayal of female characters - he's talked shit about CERO being too strict more than once. He's a good game director, with a very old-school mentality, and with that comes some hard to defend choices when it comes to the portrayal of marginalized groups.
That's......actually a fair assessment of the situation.
 

Spring-Loaded

Member
Oct 27, 2017
19,904
There are a bunch of playable characters who do. And you wouldn't have to use developer mode to make them playable to do it either.

In fact, you know what playable character does a goofy pose for their spot dodge?

Fucking Bowser.

And if he wanted to show "mario hosing down someone going after Peach," Bowser would've been a more reasonable choice.

I guess I get to see some more answers for my "what would it take for you to drop smash," thread
 

RochHoch

One Winged Slayer
Member
May 22, 2018
18,884
How much does the average Japanese person even know about the US Civil Rights movement

The optics of using Rodin there are questionable, but I doubt that any historical reference was intended
 
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mopinks

Member
Oct 27, 2017
30,561
I don't really get the sense that Mario is supposed to be protecting Peach

he damn near fludded her in the face
 

Spring-Loaded

Member
Oct 27, 2017
19,904
How much does the average Japanese person even know about the US Civil Rights movement

The optics of using Rodin there are questionable, but I doubt that any historical reference was intended

These discussions too often center on "but what was the person feeling, deep down in their heart of hearts??? We can't say for certain they want all _____ people enslaved and subjugated, so we should just drop this discussion entirely!! "

That's not the point. It's a bad, questionable-at-best image, with the one default/canonically black character in the game. The picture should be taken down. The feelings of Sakurai that actually matter are the ones related to whatever his response to this will be, not whatever feelings we presume after giving him every possible benefit of the doubt.
 

Regulus Tera

Member
Oct 25, 2017
19,458
I agree that Smash has been lacking in terms of representation but I think accusing Sakurai of being anti-civil rights because he's not aware of specific imagery associated with racial struggles that took place in the US over fifty years ago is quite the stretch. In fact I would argue that shows some of the anglo-centrism prevalent in most online video game discussion.
 

Melpomene

One Winged Slayer
Member
Jun 9, 2019
18,282
These discussions too often center on "but what was the person feeling, deep down in their heart of hearts??? We can't say for certain they want all _____ people enslaved and subjugated, so we should just drop this discussion entirely!! "

That's not the point. It's a bad, questionable-at-best image, with the one default/canonically black character in the game. The picture should be taken down. The feelings of Sakurai that actually matter are the ones related to whatever his response to this will be.
That's if this matter ever even reaches his eyes/ears, unfortunately. I don't think he generally reads Twitter replies, so we mostly just have to hope someone at Nintendo bothers to bring it to his attention. I mean, hopefully the response is significant enough that such a thing happens, but if it's not, I can see Nintendo JP just deciding it's best for PR purposes to ignore it.
 

GreenMamba

Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,290
b6nSsMj.png

"Dixie Kong in Smash Bros."
 
Dec 30, 2020
15,254
I do kind of wonder if the post had something to do with Rodin's character rather than skin tone. I know Rodin has referenced Zelda and Smash Bros in the Bayonetta games, did he ever bring up Mario?
 

Scrappy-Fan92

Member
Jan 14, 2021
8,887
This discussion just proves Smash, Nintendo, and the industry at large have a ways to go still.

Anyways, how's everyone doing on this Friday?
 

Melpomene

One Winged Slayer
Member
Jun 9, 2019
18,282
This discussion just proves Smash, Nintendo, and the industry at large have a ways to go still.

Anyways, how's everyone doing on this Friday?
My sinuses are messed up thanks to still being sick and it's making my teeth ache, but on the other hand I'm making a nice cup of coffee and I've got a nice new album to listen to, so it all balances out.
 

Punchline

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
4,151
cant in good faith agree its meant to be a racist picture at all. smash fans constantly read way too much into silly pictures sakurai takes with dev tools as "hints" to the next character and it literally never is. to suggest its actually referencing a racist event when literally nothing in the picture except ronin and the presence of a hose of water even remotely resembles this picture.

if it was black and white id be willing to give it a little credence, but it is SO clearly about how theyre dodging it and literally nothing else. just seems both weird on premise also doesnt really line up with how these pictures are presented.
 

Spring-Loaded

Member
Oct 27, 2017
19,904
How did people downplay and dismiss the racist spirits stuff way back when? Can't remember how similar that was to all this.
 

Scrappy-Fan92

Member
Jan 14, 2021
8,887
Member statements in regards to the Spirit battles included but were not limited to:

-"Donkey Kong is there as a stand-in for Mr. Sandman due to them both being opponents in Punch-Out!! games."
-"The dark-skinned purple-clad Villager being used for the Tac battle was likely an oversight due to the fact that Villager didn't have any dark-skinned alts in early pre-release footage."
-"Diddy Kong was used for the Dee Jay battle due to their shared propensity for somersaulting."
 

Sacul64

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 27, 2017
6,757
I find it ironic that people are using the Japan does not understand racism defense on the day that I discovered and unlocked this Hoodie in NMH3

 

ned_ballad

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
48,220
Rochester, New York
The Mr Sandman one particularly bothers me because it could so easily have just been a giant Little Mac and it arguably would have been a better fight overall. The "Sandman" gimmick is already present from the sleepy floor, so (Giant) Little Mac would fit a lot better as a boxer. I don't even get the use of DK with boosted Smash attacks... all three of DK's Smash attacks are explicitly NOT punches, while all three of Little Mac's are. AND they have armor!

It almost feels like the entire fight was designed for Mac and then they just... swapped to DK for whatever reason, probably because he's the "true" final boss of Punch Out Wii, but... still... the racial implications really should have nipped that idea
 
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OP
MondoMega

MondoMega

One Winged Slayer
Member
Jan 10, 2018
47,474
Australia
I don't think there's anyone who would legitimately argue that "Japan knows nothing about racism" without just being totally misguided in saying so. In the context of yesterday's pic I see it as more "the specific imagery of the Birmingham Campaign and its relevance to the American civil rights movement isn't going to be common knowledge or easily recognised everywhere in the world".

That's all the more reason for someone creating products aimed at an international audience to educate themselves further though. I feel that was already in the order with the Dee Jay and Mr. Sandman spirits; not just for Sakurai, but anyone at Bandai Namco or Nintendo involved in that process. There's the "Spirits team" that was predominantly in-charge of deciding the characters that would appear as spirits and what their specific spirit battles would be, but it all still managed to pass through the international Nintendo staff involved in localisation, and play testers who could have voiced concern about the content.

I definitely don't believe Sakurai was trying to intentionally invoke that specific imagery; I think the intent is as simple as Rodin (and Peach) dodging the burst of water, one in an exaggurated action pose and the other casually; but you can throw intent out the window if the picture is still invoking that imagery for some regardless, that's never good.

Perhaps some Smash-adjacent Japanese creators may need to educate themselves about their country's own war crimes too; thinking about you Sugiyama. There's something to be said about the imperial flag still casually showing up in media; but that's one thing in a mountain of problems Persona 5 has though.

wnes6ymi3d04dyciam7s.png
 
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Dec 30, 2020
15,254
Member statements in regards to the Spirit battles included but were not limited to:

-"Donkey Kong is there as a stand-in for Mr. Sandman due to them both being opponents in Punch-Out!! games."
-"The dark-skinned purple-clad Villager being used for the Tac battle was likely an oversight due to the fact that Villager didn't have any dark-skinned alts in early pre-release footage."
-"Diddy Kong was used for the Dee Jay battle due to their shared propensity for somersaulting."

The Diddy and Dee Jay one I got because yeah, Diddy's fighting style is the closest in the game to a mix of kickboxing and breakdancing, but the Villager as Tac one confused the hell out of me. I get that Villager pockets things like Tac but why in the hell use the Black villager? Hell, Tac isn't even black, he's yellow wearing a black hoodie.
 
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