Super Smash Bros. Ultimate Downloadable Contents Discussion Thread 3 | Seeking Answers to the Un-Bear-able Quest-ions!

Hailinel

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Oct 27, 2017
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But even Isaac didn’t get more than the return of his AT & a Mii Costume (likely due to Golden Sun being dead). For all we know, Xenoblade 3’s protagonist could eclipse Rex & Pyra/Mythra in popularity. And due to Xenoblade not being a dead IP, Rex’s demand is more likely to diminish in the coming years.
The next Xenoblade could be X2.
 

ned_ballad

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Oct 25, 2017
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A game that sold more than any one title of Mega Man, Castlevania, or Banjo-Kazooie. Sure, okay, we'll just gloss right over that. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

I guess I'll give a more detailed answer--Dixie's character design makes it outright irresponsible game design to just transplant a hand to hand moveset to. She has a giant, brightly colored weapon attached to the back of her head. Having her fight primarily with punches and kicks would be like having Ganondorf hold his sword at all times but still only use it in his smash attacks, or Luigi had his Poltergust on his back the entire time but still only used it for his throws and Final Smash. It doesn't translate visually well at all. This, combined with the fact that her personality is easily different enough from Diddy's and she's actually not any more derivative of Diddy in DKC than Diddy was of Donkey Kong (she's actually almost as far removed from Diddy gameplay wise as you can possibly be in DKC's gameplay) makes her an Isabelle type situation at the very least.
Personality doesn't matter when making clones. In fact, having a different personality is actually a pro towards her being a clone. It's why clones like Daisy work.

Visually, her hair being most of her body wouldn't really matter when making a clone. So she has Diddy's up air, but the animation is slightly tweaked to use her hair. Or his down smash slaps are changed to hair slaps. It'd be the same moves, just with different animations, something clones do all the time in Smash. They have to make up 90% of her moveset anyway, why do those made up moves have to be anything more than derivative of Diddy?

And there's Palutena, who has bright green hair that makes up a huge part of her model, and that's not been a problem.

At least you admit she could be an Isabelle situation, aka, she could be a semi-clone. So we've moved on past there being absolutely no way she could or should be built off Diddy.

Never mind that if Dixie was going to be part of a switchable tag team with Diddy like we suspect she would only really make sense as someone with a unique enough moveset to switch to from Diddy. Ultimate added Ridley and King K. Rool as unique newcomers but only added Dark Samus as an echo and the only reasoning for Dixie still being echo material is "well, maybe Dark Samus was a more popular request" when we have no real reason to think so.
Every other cut newcomer in the files + Wolf and Toon Link are heavily built off every character. Why would Dixie be different from the other cut/last minute Brawl characters? The unique fighters that we know didn't make it into Brawl are nowhere in the files.
 
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r_n

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Oct 25, 2017
8,199
Oh gods no as Corrin would say, I forgot about them and their awful plot
Their plot was fine, just fairly standard for a cross over. You got some betrayal, you got some demons, you got portals to other worlds, you got some friendship. Nothing special, but harmless.
I actually liked them, even.


e: to be clear i'd rather they not get into smash but they're fine. it's fine. I'd pull for them in Heroes if Heroes had any interest in crossover characters
 

Sponge

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Oct 25, 2017
3,105
Here's the real GOAT Donkey Kong newcomer
I've always joked about a DK64 character getting in Smash, but not Lanky by himself.

An idea I had was Tiny, Lanky and Chunky as one character. It would work like Pokemon Trainer, where their down B would swap the character out. Instead of a Pokeball, they would swap out with one of these.

 

GreenMamba

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Oct 25, 2017
2,010
Personality doesn't matter when making clones. In fact, having a different personality is actually a pro towards her being a clone. It's why clones like Daisy work.

Visually, her hair being most of her body wouldn't really matter when making a clone. So she has Diddy's up air, but the animation is slightly tweaked to use her hair. Or his down smash slaps are changed to hair slaps. It'd be the same moves, just with different animations, something clones do all the time in Smash. They have to make up 90% of her moveset anyway, why do those made up moves have to be anything more than derivative of Diddy?

At least you admit she could be an Isabelle situation, aka, she could be a semi-clone. So we've moved on past there being absolutely no way she could or should be built off Diddy.
Altering a physical move's animation to the point that it's utilizing a completely different 'limb' as it were is completely beyond the scope of cloned attacks we've seen in Smash. It's twisting design guidelines into a pretzel in order to justify a character being a clone, which is just backwards from how they're actually created. If the designers are conceptualizing a Dixie moveset and come up with moves that require her to use her hair they're not going to shove that square peg into a round hole and make it a variant of an existing kick attack, that would instead be justification for making her more unique.
Every other cut newcomer in the files + Wolf and Toon Link are heavily built off every character. Why would Dixie be different from the other cut/last minute Brawl characters? The unique fighters that we know didn't make it into Brawl are nowhere in the files.
And every cut veteran was a clone or derivative--save one, Mewtwo. We have no idea what Dixie was planned to play like.
 

TMaakkonen

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Oct 26, 2017
954
Tbh if we get any extra DLC after pass, even just 1 and it would break a deconfirm rule, I’m sure Rex would make it.

Also, really? Elma’s chances are good because of “maybe next game is X2”? Yeah ok.

Speaking of Mario clones, I’m guessing that Doctor Mario exists because Sakurai thought it would be funny if Mario threw pills.
 

ned_ballad

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Oct 25, 2017
21,273
Western New York
Tbh if we get any extra DLC after pass, even just 1 and it would break a deconfirm rule, I’m sure Rex would make it.

Also, really? Elma’s chances are good because of “maybe next game is X2”? Yeah ok.

Speaking of Mario clones, I’m guessing that Doctor Mario exists because Sakurai thought it would be funny if Mario threw pills.
He liked the music from Doctor Mario
 

ned_ballad

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Oct 25, 2017
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If he hadn't done Dr. Mario in Melee, I wonder if he would have gone with Daisy...
hmmm

Daisy hadn't really hit her big popularity, yet, I feel like that came after Double Dash.

I actually have a hard time thinking of 1 more clone for Melee

Maybe "Young Zelda" as a Zelda clone that has some gimmick where she summons Impa who is a clone of Sheik?

Baby Bowser, maybe? Mario Party had those Koopa Kid gremling things which were like Baby Bowser, so he was kinda still around, and Yoshi's Story made up the bulk of Yoshi's representation in the first few Smashes.
 

wholahay

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Dec 18, 2017
172
Altering a physical move's animation to the point that it's utilizing a completely different 'limb' as it were is completely beyond the scope of cloned attacks we've seen in Smash. It's twisting design guidelines into a pretzel in order to justify a character being a clone, which is just backwards from how they're actually created. If the designers are conceptualizing a Dixie moveset and come up with moves that require her to use her hair they're not going to shove that square peg into a round hole and make it a variant of an existing kick attack, that would instead be justification for making her more unique.

And every cut veteran was a clone or derivative--save one, Mewtwo. We have no idea what Dixie was planned to play like.
Thank you for this. I feel like ResetEra has litigated Dixie's echo/clone potential a thousand times at this point and we eventually always arrive at the same place. Maybe they'd use Diddy's model and skeleton as a starting point. Beyond that, the idea of Dixie truly being based on Diddy never holds up.
 

Neoxon

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Oct 25, 2017
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I'm throwing my hat in Monolithsoft's new fantasy IP, depending on the reception it gets.
Aren't they working on another non-Xenoblade game? Whatever this is:
Assuming that the Switch lasts for another 2-3 years, the next Smash game is probably another 4-5 years out. That may be enough time for this to come out & for another Xenoblade game to be made for the Switch’s eventual successor.

With that said, if said new IP is successful, I could see it being a Smash contender.
 

r_n

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Oct 25, 2017
8,199
hmmm

Daisy hadn't really hit her big popularity, yet, I feel like that came after Double Dash.

I actually have a hard time thinking of 1 more clone for Melee

Maybe "Young Zelda" as a Zelda clone that has some gimmick where she summons Impa who is a clone of Sheik?

Baby Bowser, maybe? Mario Party had those Koopa Kid gremling things which were like Baby Bowser, so he was kinda still around, and Yoshi's Story made up the bulk of Yoshi's representation in the first few Smashes.
While I don't think Daisy had "hit it big" she definitely had presence and I could see a melee-styled Daisy taking advantage of being Peach But X instead of Peach! Again! I could see the appeal if Dr. mario wasn't on the table.

I'm not sure a "Young Zelda"/Impa would be in the cards, that'd be twice as much work load and it'd hilariously mean every zelda character had a clone.

Baby Bowser would be interesting, a Bowser about the size of Yoshi probably?
Hmm DK Jr? Jr was kind of on the outs already, but I think he'd be recognizable enough and double as a kind of throw back character.
 

ned_ballad

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Oct 25, 2017
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While I don't think Daisy had "hit it big" she definitely had presence and I could see a melee-styled Daisy taking advantage of being Peach But X instead of Peach! Again! I could see the appeal if Dr. mario wasn't on the table.

I'm not sure a "Young Zelda"/Impa would be in the cards, that'd be twice as much work load and it'd hilariously mean every zelda character had a clone.

Baby Bowser would be interesting, a Bowser about the size of Yoshi probably?
Hmm DK Jr? Jr was kind of on the outs already, but I think he'd be recognizable enough and double as a kind of throw back character.
Yea, Baby Bowser could be Bowser, but small. At least in Melee. I don't think a character like that would work anymore.

Who would you rather have as a Donkey Kong echo? Jr. or Funky?
Funky Kong

He's canonically the strongest Kong.
 

RochHoch

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May 22, 2018
3,446
I think the wide gap between Ultimate and Smash 6 will help to give us a bigger pool of newcomers to consider, which should lead to some interesting speculation.

At the moment, the most likely additions would be:
Pokemon (obviously)
Spring Man or Min Min (assuming ARMS sticks around)
Fire Emblem (probably)
Xenoblade (which is one big question mark that depends entirely on where the series goes next)

And I'd argue that Mario and Kirby could potentially get another rep each, with King Boo probably being the front runner for Mario considering that Luigi's Mansion is its own subseries now, and then Bandanna Dee, Marx, or Magolor would all work fine for a fourth Kirby rep (though with Sakurai still calling the shots, anyone besides Marx would probably have really poor odds).

After that is when things get murky:

Splatoon is big enough to get another rep, but it doesn't really have much to work with beyond Octolings. They could work as a new character using Splatoon 2 weapons, but I still feel like they'd be kinda samey compared to Inklings in some ways.

Zelda already has all of the important characters that aren't one-offs. For it to get a newcomer, I feel like either an old character would have to be brought back with an incredibly substantial role, or a MAJOR new character would have to be introduced.

Dixie Kong seems like the biggest missing echo/semi clone. She wasn't popular enough that the Smash Ballot could do anything for like it did for K Rool, Dark Samus, and Chrom, so I really can't see her being unique, but she'd work just fine as an semiclone like Wolf or an echo in the vein of Chrom.

After that, everything for first parties pretty much just hinges on what games come out and gain popularity in the coming years before Smash 6's project plan. I wouldn't mind a roster with similar additions to Smash 4's, with interesting choices largely hailing from newer games.
 

ned_ballad

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Oct 25, 2017
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Man now I'm picturing how Baby Bowser would have had to work in Melee and thinking of him not coming back until Ultimate and getting that hella good glow up that Pichu got.
Probably similar janky animation issues Pichu had in Melee due to having to scale everything down.

I'm surprised Young Link came out of Melee relatively normal, but I guess human characters might scale better down to child size

Baby Bowser likely would have killed Bowser Jr's chances. They look exactly the same in recent games.

Baby Bowser in 2001, though, really wouldn't look too different than Bowser scaled down
 

Crazy Izanagi

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Oct 27, 2017
16,286
That’s post-Awakening. My mindset is when the game originally came out. Sakurai leaned into her disguising as Marth for her character concept, whereas Dixie has always been separate from Diddy.


But as somebody who tends to dislike Echoes, it would be awesome if she got retooled into a spear wielder.
All those moves are based on things she can do in Awakening. If they wanted they could have made her a unique character.

But as someone who loves Lucina I'm just glad she's playable even if it's as an echo. I would just as easily be happy to see Tetra or Midna as Echo's.

Because to me it's better then the spirit or Assist Trophy ether.
 

RochHoch

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May 22, 2018
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The thing with Lucina is that mechanically there’s nothing that really differentiates her from Marth. Whereas Dixie Kong has had at least three games where her abilities are distinct enough from Diddy already. She’s not a tabula rasa.
Dark Samus could easily have been given a unique moveset based on her boss fights, and yet they were fine with making her an echo anyway.
 

Gartooth

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Oct 25, 2017
5,336
Assuming that the Switch lasts for another 2-3 years, the next Smash game is probably another 4-5 years out. That may be enough time for this to come out & for another Xenoblade game to be made for the Switch’s eventual successor.

With that said, if said new IP is successful, I could see it being a Smash contender.
Speculation time: Switch launched March 2017, so under a typical 5 year lifespan it would be March 2022 when we see new hardware. Since it has been so successful though I think we don't see a successor until the calendar year between March 2023 and March 2024.

Sakurai will get the call from Nintendo for a new Smash roughly 1 year before said successor launches. So 2022 to 2023 sometime is my guess. That's the sweet spot where he will look at the latest games.

This new IP was first teased in 2017. So either a 2020 or 2021 launch makes sense. Then pad that with a typical year of DLC support to 2021 or 2022. Monolithsoft is also assisting Nintendo on the Zelda series, so I assume part of their staff is on BotW2.

My current guess is that the new IP stands the best chance. Of course Smash could come later next gen, among other things. I think Xenoblade 3 isn't until the next console, so I have doubts it hits the timing right.
 

r_n

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Oct 25, 2017
8,199
Probably similar janky animation issues Pichu had in Melee due to having to scale everything down.

I'm surprised Young Link came out of Melee relatively normal, but I guess human characters might scale better down to child size

Baby Bowser likely would have killed Bowser Jr's chances. They look exactly the same in recent games.

Baby Bowser in 2001, though, really wouldn't look too different than Bowser scaled down
the timeline i see is something akin to....

Melee - Baby Bowser looking very much like his Yoshi Story appearence (mistake), with really weird proportions and stiff animations mostly 1:1 with bowser.
Brawl - BB is left on the wayside. Probably was considered to be brought back at one point like most Melee clones, but just didn't make the cut. Maybe we even learn he'd have been replaced (possibly in line with Pichu replaced by Plusle & Minun?) by Bowser Jr since the ywere so similar at this juncture.
Smash 4 - I think Bowser Jr would come in for real here, I bet the clown car he started using would've appealed to Sakurai enough to be roughly similar and still not bother bringing Baby Bowser back. Certainly not as a clone of Bowser Jr since they'd be so different.
Ultiamte - Baby Bowser is BACK, baby and he has had a full visual overhaul to bring him in line with Yoshi's Island, we probably would have gotten Baby Bowser's battle theme
 

DrArchon

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Oct 25, 2017
8,696
I’m mad about Dark Samus too. I predict Metroid fans will in the future have movements to retool her just like Ganondorf fans do.
Not if Dark Samus never shows up in another Metroid game. All signs point to her time being over, whereas post-Melee Dorf got in WW and TP and was able to show a whole new generation of players that he doesn't play like Falcon.
 

ned_ballad

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the timeline i see is something akin to....

Melee - Baby Bowser looking very much like his Yoshi Story appearence (mistake), with really weird proportions and stiff animations mostly 1:1 with bowser.
Brawl - BB is left on the wayside. Probably was considered to be brought back at one point like most Melee clones, but just didn't make the cut. Maybe we even learn he'd have been replaced (possibly in line with Pichu replaced by Plusle & Minun?) by Bowser Jr since the ywere so similar at this juncture.
Smash 4 - I think Bowser Jr would come in for real here, I bet the clown car he started using would've appealed to Sakurai enough to be roughly similar and still not bother bringing Baby Bowser back. Certainly not as a clone of Bowser Jr since they'd be so different.
Ultiamte - Baby Bowser is BACK, baby and he has had a full visual overhaul to bring him in line with Yoshi's Island, we probably would have gotten Baby Bowser's battle theme
I wonder if Ultimate Baby Bowser would be made of wool or crafted just to make him visually different from Bowser Jr

Modern Baby Bowser is just Bowser Jr without a bandanna.
 

Neoxon

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Oct 25, 2017
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Speculation time: Switch launched March 2017, so under a typical 5 year lifespan it would be March 2022 when we see new hardware. Since it has been so successful though I think we don't see a successor until the calendar year between March 2023 and March 2024.

Sakurai will get the call from Nintendo for a new Smash roughly 1 year before said successor launches. So 2022 to 2023 sometime is my guess. That's the sweet spot where he will look at the latest games.

This new IP was first teased in 2017. So either a 2020 or 2021 launch makes sense. Then pad that with a typical year of DLC support to 2021 or 2022. Monolithsoft is also assisting Nintendo on the Zelda series, so I assume part of their staff is on BotW2.

My current guess is that the new IP stands the best chance. Of course Smash could come later next gen, among other things. I think Xenoblade 3 isn't until the next console, so I have doubts it hits the timing right.
March 2023 sounds about closer to what I expect, but you have a point. If everything goes the way you predicted, Rex may still be the most recent Xenoblade protagonist if MonolithSoft is squarely focused on their new IP & BotW2.
 

r_n

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Oct 25, 2017
8,199
I wonder if Ultimate Baby Bowser would be made of wool or crafted just to make him visually different from Bowser Jr

Modern Baby Bowser is just Bowser Jr without a bandanna.
I was thinking they'd specifically go for something based on his original sprite


While the artwork of the time is still very Bowser Jr (and somethign they would lean into moving forward), the proportions here are quite different, especially if they kept to the aesthetic.
 

r_n

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Oct 25, 2017
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I know it makes sense for Baby Bowser to look like Bowser Jr but......at least keep the 'Broom" styled ponytail or the black eyes or something. Anything.
Yoshi has a hard enough time with an identity at least let bowser look distinct




see like this horrifying trophy I forgot was in Melee.