Super Smash Bros. Ultimate Downloadable Contents Discussion Thread 3 | Seeking Answers to the Un-Bear-able Quest-ions!

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KtotheRoc

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Oct 27, 2017
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Most people still took the ballot to be for 4's DLC.

(And some people were super salty when Bayo was declared the winner.)
 

wildvine47

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Feb 20, 2018
660
I strongly disagree. I don't think it's true at all that Ridley ever "split" the vote with Dark Samus to any degree. Ridley was always THE one, THE choice of the Metroid fanbase by far, even as Ridley fans were beaten down by Sakurai and other Smash fans' words. The story of Ridley is a story of a fanbase's resilience -- a pizza that wouldn't cook no matter how much the chef yelled. A toilet that wouldn't flush no matter how much the plumber plunged.

Ridley was overtaken by K. Rool in the ballot -- and many other characters -- but Ridley still held on. Dark Samus was always a far off dream.

Dark Samus got her butt kicked by Dixie Kong in the ballot. You can look up the polls from that period and Dark Samus doesn't even register. Dixie does, even if notably below K. Rool. That still put her ahead of a lot of characters, including Dark Samus. In fact, the furor over K. Rool helped Dixie relative to other characters because it kept her around in people's minds. She was often floated as a "realistic" alternative to K. Rool. The conflict fed the Dixie machine.
Oh trust me, I know. I've been waving Ridley's flag ever since the Melee intro 18 years ago and I was actually moved to tears by his reveal trailer. But I think people forget how battered the Ridley fandom was after Smash 4. It was pretty clear that the whole Pyrosphere shadow situation took the wind out of their sails. I still remember the very somber sign-off thread on Smashboards after his disconfirmation with a number of people saying it was their last rodeo because they were exhausted after how much of a rollercoaster the whole Pyrosphere situation ended up being.

The ballot was just rubbing salt in the wound because everyone correctly assumed that an existing notable role in the game was a damning mark against them. As someone who frequented a lot of Ridley threads across the net, I saw plenty of people saying that they were going to move on to Dark Samus or at least throw her a vote alongside Ridley. That plus the fact that Sakurai outright said Dark Samus and Chrom were added to the game for popularity reasons has me thinking that, ironically, Ridley's deconfirmation for Smash 4 resulted in us getting an additional Metroid character in the end.

As for the Dixie situation, yes, she was presented as the realistic alternative to K. Rool, but that was mostly before the full game released, and certainly before the ballot came up. Because of Tropical Freeze being recent and no one knowing when the cutoff was at the time, most figured Dixie had a great shot due to recency whereas old Mario Sluggers-only K. Rool was constantly given the "irrelevant" brush-off. Once the ballot appeared and the idea of a character getting into Smash on popularity alone became a feasible concept, the K. Rool squad went into overdrive with the Kremling Kampaign and left Dixie in the dust.

As for the fan polls, I'll admit that Dixie did chart better on those than Dark Samus, but as I mentioned earlier, many of the Metroid fans had lost hope and probably moved on from where the polls were happening. After all, Ridley himself didn't chart on a lot of these polls. I just think you're underselling Dark Samus's (confirmed) popularity and overselling Dixie's at the time. She's definitely going to become an enormous force now that K. Rool's in, but it's a similar situation to the competition between Diddy and K. Rool in Brawl: one only really takes off after the other is already in.
 

yuoke

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Oct 25, 2017
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Yea, looking at the direct again (sad seeing Iwata), he especially emphasizes that it's for future games.
 

TheDinoman

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Oct 25, 2017
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Wait, aren't we forgetting that Dark Samus was already an assist trophy in Smash 4, essentially putting her in the same pit with Ridley at the time?
 

kirby_fox

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Oct 29, 2017
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I think we underestimate and overestimate a lot of characters while trying to assume what Sakurai would do looking at the list of choices.

I honestly think Goku, Spongebob and Iron Man were likely highly voted on as he's mentioned them. But how many people mention the latter two in these fan polls? It's also so arbitrary for what he picks- Dark Samus may have been 89th on the list but Sakurai thought all the others would be unique characters or impossible with their time limit for development.

It's one reason I'd love to see a BTS book about the whole process.
 

KtotheRoc

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Oct 27, 2017
17,445
I think we underestimate and overestimate a lot of characters while trying to assume what Sakurai would do looking at the list of choices.

I honestly think Goku, Spongebob and Iron Man were likely highly voted on as he's mentioned them. But how many people mention the latter two in these fan polls? It's also so arbitrary for what he picks- Dark Samus may have been 89th on the list but Sakurai thought all the others would be unique characters or impossible with their time limit for development.

It's one reason I'd love to see a BTS book about the whole process.
Goku, Spongebob, and the like definitely did way better than characters who did end up in the game like Banjo.
 

wildvine47

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Feb 20, 2018
660
Wait, aren't we forgetting that Dark Samus was already an assist trophy in Smash 4, essentially putting her in the same pit with Ridley at the time?
And even with all of that writing, I completely forgot that Dark Samus was an assist in Smash 4. Fudge.

Even then though, getting boss'd twice in a row felt like finality to a lot of people for Ridley. Dark Samus probably felt a lot more achievable than him at the time, and probably helped her rally enough extra votes to get her where she is now.
 

DecoReturns

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Oct 27, 2017
10,252
I saw a lot more love for Chrom than Dark Samus.
Dark Samus isn’t as popular as Chrom technically. Chrom’s game outsold Dark Samus’s games. So he has a bigger group of fans by that alone.

Plus another aspect that affects a tiny group of people like me is that Samus in Smash Ultimate isn’t fun to play. Dark Samus has cool animations but her moveset sucks. Rather she had a unique moveset.
 

TheDinoman

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Oct 25, 2017
4,885
Honestly Dark Samus comes off to me as a character that probably did well enough on the ballot to be noticed but probably not enough to really be pushed into playable territory, like Black Knight or something.

With a unique moveset, that is. They were able to cut corners and include her as a quick clone of Samus with some new animations and minimal balance changes. It was either that, or just keeping her as an assist trophy.
 

KtotheRoc

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Oct 27, 2017
17,445
I think Dixie did better than Dark Samus, but Dixie isn't echo material. (And obviously K. Rool was one of the dominant characters of the ballot.)
 

r_n

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Oct 25, 2017
8,279
Still waiting on someone committing career suicide and also jail time to bring us the ballot results

it will destroy us all but it'll be pretty funny
 

wildvine47

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Feb 20, 2018
660
Still waiting on someone committing career suicide and also jail time to bring us the ballot results

it will destroy us all but it'll be pretty funny
Knowing the actual ballot results would destroy smash communities across the web as a whole. Legitimately I think the current Pokemon controversy would pale in comparison to finding out the actual ballot rankings and how many characters ended up getting passed over.
 

GarudaSmash

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Sep 12, 2018
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Leaked Smash Ballot Reveals Waluigi Top-Requested Character

Yeah, I know they wouldn't give away who top-requested character was in the headline.
 

CyberWolfJV

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Apr 5, 2019
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we get the Ballot results, but it's the raw result; a mess with many repeats and entries with typos and grammar errors; so we'd be a month or so cleaning everything up to really understand the amount of votes each character got.
 

r_n

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Oct 25, 2017
8,279
Knowing the actual ballot results would destroy smash communities across the web as a whole. Legitimately I think the current Pokemon controversy would pale in comparison to finding out the actual ballot rankings and how many characters ended up getting passed over.
Like let's even put aside someone like bayonetta let's just look at, like, K Rool. Imagine seeing the results and seeing who was passed over for him, imagine the people he might've outranekd and imagine the ("reliazable") people he didn't. Or seeing what his notable placement actually meant!
 

r_n

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Oct 25, 2017
8,279
we get the Ballot results, but it's the raw result; a mess with many repeats and entries with typos and grammar errors; so we'd be a month or so cleaning everything up to really understand the amount of votes each character got.
I have to know how many people voted for Cat Mario purely because they saw it suggested in the direct.
I bet it wasn't entirely insignificant
 

wildvine47

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Feb 20, 2018
660
I do honestly wonder how well Isaac did in the ballot. He clearly did well enough to get both a much-improved Assist Trophy and model, as well as his Mii costume, and in fan polls generally wasn't too far behind big fan favorite K. Rool.

I don't know if it was here, but I saw someone hypothesize once that Isaac might have had a harder uphill battle due to being from a franchise new to Smash, and would have therefore necessitated a new stages, a full musical work up, and more, whereas K. Rool and Ridley didn't have to considering they came from existing series with a lot of the work already done.

It makes a lot of sense on paper as to why all of that new content being required might have stonewalled Isaac, but that sort of falls apart when you look at Castlevania, which got all of that and more, but also which I wouldn't have pegged as being more popular than Isaac ballot-wise. Makes you think.
 

Neoxon

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I do honestly wonder how well Isaac did in the ballot. He clearly did well enough to get both a much-improved Assist Trophy and model, as well as his Mii costume, and in fan polls generally wasn't too far behind big fan favorite K. Rool.

I don't know if it was here, but I saw someone hypothesize once that Isaac might have had a harder uphill battle due to being from a franchise new to Smash, and would have therefore necessitated a new stages, a full musical work up, and more, whereas K. Rool and Ridley didn't have to considering they came from existing series with a lot of the work already done.

It makes a lot of sense as to why it stonewalled Isaac, but that sort of falls apart when you look at Castlevania, which got all of that and more, but also which I wouldn't have pegged as being more popular than Isaac ballot-wise. Makes you think.
One also has to consider that Castlevania at its prime was (& in many ways, still is) bigger than Golden Sun could ever hope to be, to the point of defining an entire genre. They aren’t even in the same league.
 

KtotheRoc

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Oct 27, 2017
17,445
Sakurai said he turned every vote into Castlevania into support for Simon (and Richter).

(Similar to how all the Final Fantasy support over the years eventually turned into Sakurai bringing Cloud in.)
 

wildvine47

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Feb 20, 2018
660
One also has to consider that Castlevania at its prime was bigger than Golden Sun ever was, to the point of defining an entire genre. They aren’t even in the same league.
Oh it certainly is a bigger franchise, but it definitely wasn't at it's prime during the ballot era, and it wasn't considered a realistic option either due to Snake being AWOL. Yet Sakurai clearly stated in one of his columns that Castlevania was a ballot pick. It'd be interesting to see where the two series ended up in relation to each other, at the very least.
Sakurai said he turned every vote into Castlevania into support for Simon (and Richter).

(Similar to how all the Final Fantasy support over the years eventually turned into Sakurai bringing Cloud in.)
That's a fair point, true. I guess there really wasn't a lot of other characters people would have voted for aside from Isaac for Golden Sun (maybe a few Felix and Matthew diehards), but Castlevania would have had Simon, Dracula, Alucard, and plenty more to pool together.
 
Mar 9, 2018
2,237
Oh trust me, I know. I've been waving Ridley's flag ever since the Melee intro 18 years ago and I was actually moved to tears by his reveal trailer. But I think people forget how battered the Ridley fandom was after Smash 4. It was pretty clear that the whole Pyrosphere shadow situation took the wind out of their sails. I still remember the very somber sign-off thread on Smashboards after his disconfirmation with a number of people saying it was their last rodeo because they were exhausted after how much of a rollercoaster the whole Pyrosphere situation ended up being.

The ballot was just rubbing salt in the wound because everyone correctly assumed that an existing notable role in the game was a damning mark against them. As someone who frequented a lot of Ridley threads across the net, I saw plenty of people saying that they were going to move on to Dark Samus or at least throw her a vote alongside Ridley. That plus the fact that Sakurai outright said Dark Samus and Chrom were added to the game for popularity reasons has me thinking that, ironically, Ridley's deconfirmation for Smash 4 resulted in us getting an additional Metroid character in the end.

As for the Dixie situation, yes, she was presented as the realistic alternative to K. Rool, but that was mostly before the full game released, and certainly before the ballot came up. Because of Tropical Freeze being recent and no one knowing when the cutoff was at the time, most figured Dixie had a great shot due to recency whereas old Mario Sluggers-only K. Rool was constantly given the "irrelevant" brush-off. Once the ballot appeared and the idea of a character getting into Smash on popularity alone became a feasible concept, the K. Rool squad went into overdrive with the Kremling Kampaign and left Dixie in the dust.

As for the fan polls, I'll admit that Dixie did chart better on those than Dark Samus, but as I mentioned earlier, many of the Metroid fans had lost hope and probably moved on from where the polls were happening. After all, Ridley himself didn't chart on a lot of these polls. I just think you're underselling Dark Samus's (confirmed) popularity and overselling Dixie's at the time. She's definitely going to become an enormous force now that K. Rool's in, but it's a similar situation to the competition between Diddy and K. Rool in Brawl: one only really takes off after the other is already in.
To be fair, you are really understating things when you say Dixie did better than Dark Samus in polls. Dixie actually charted. And it could be partly because of bias because fans make up rules over which characters are allowed to be considered. But I would just say that's part of the rodeo. The fan ecosystem favored Dixie and that's one reason I think Dixie also did way better.

I think I'm rating Dark Samus appropriately -- less than Dixie. I think Dark Samus and other echoes were rated on a different and more forgiving scale. I think in general, Metroid fans overestimate their #s.
 

Neoxon

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Oct 25, 2017
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Oh it certainly is a bigger franchise, but it definitely wasn't at it's prime during the ballot era, and it wasn't considered a realistic option either due to Snake being AWOL. Yet Sakurai clearly stated in one of his columns that Castlevania was a ballot pick. It'd be interesting to see where the two series ended up in relation to each other, at the very least.
Like I said, Castlevania at its prime was huge, whereas Golden Sun only saw decent amounts of success. Even now, Castlevania is still getting ports & Netflix animated shows. As I said earlier, the two aren’t even remotely comparable. If people still voted for Snake despite everything, then you can bet that there were a ton of Castlevania votes.
 

r_n

Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,279
Huh, yeah, I can't find an upload of it. Even going to an archive of the Japanese page for the Direct didn't bear any fruit.

EDIT: Wait nevermind, I found a reupload (and yes, they used Cat Mario as the example here too):
how weird, i guess Nintendo Japan just starts culling old directs after a while?

Oh yeah. Hero didn’t release.

Guess I’m wrong on my prediction. Dang it.
i wonder how many angry people are going to flood french nintendo twitter when they upload their next video
 

wildvine47

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Feb 20, 2018
660
To be fair, you are really understating things when you say Dixie did better than Dark Samus in polls. Dixie actually charted. And it could be partly because of bias because fans make up rules over which characters are allowed to be considered. But I would just say that's part of the rodeo. The fan ecosystem favored Dixie and that's one reason I think Dixie also did way better.

I think I'm rating Dark Samus appropriately -- less than Dixie. I think Dark Samus and other echoes were rated on a different and more forgiving scale. I think in general, Metroid fans overestimate their #s.
I mean, we don't really know how well Dark Samus did in polls, as most of them likely discarded her votes due to her being an AT. I agree, though, that Dark Samus likely didn't chart as well as Dixie did overall. Dixie's definitely the more popular character overall and didn't have AT status holding her back.

It's just such a weird situation though. Dark Samus got to be playable, whereas Dixie just got a Mii hat. Maybe he does consider Dixie above echo status, but at the same time, I find it odd that he'd leave her out of the roster entirely when making her an echo was a viable option considering how little of Diddy's moveset clashes with hers.
 

KtotheRoc

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Oct 27, 2017
17,445
Speaking of Castlevania, I wonder what the breakdown actually was in the results. Was it for a generic "Castlevania" rep? Did random Belmonts do well? Or was most of it for Simon? How well did Alucard do? How well did Soma do? How well did Shanoa do?
 

MondoMega

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Jan 10, 2018
12,046
Sydney, Australia
Speaking of Castlevania, I wonder what the breakdown actually was in the results. Was it for a generic "Castlevania" rep? Did random Belmonts do well? Or was most of it for Simon? How well did Alucard do? How well did Soma do? How well did Shanoa do?
Simon and Alucard probably performed notably well (esepcially the former), with other characters adding up to a total vote count they couldn't ignore.
 

r_n

Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,279
Speaking of Castlevania, I wonder what the breakdown actually was in the results. Was it for a generic "Castlevania" rep? Did random Belmonts do well? Or was most of it for Simon? How well did Alucard do? How well did Soma do? How well did Shanoa do?
I'd bet that Alucard had a bunch, followed by Simon (& Richter?), and then some other CV characters probably did highly in their own right. So as a whole CV was high, with those 1 in particular, and they went with Simon because it's castlevania and you gotta have the vampire killer.
Richter could've been the third (or second, or w/e) but I could see him just generally ranking highly but his moveset and aesthetics leant themselves better to the echo slot than like Trevor or Julius or whoever other belmont
 

GarudaSmash

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Sep 12, 2018
312
I still find it somewhat strange that Richter is about 3-4 characters above Simon in the game's character select database. Every other base fighter is directly followed by their echo. I guess they figured Richter had the better moveset, so once they got him right, they could apply it to Simon just because he's the og.
 

Apopheniac

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Oct 25, 2017
6,086
considering there was a spot for explaining reasoning behind the pick, I'd imagine the development team would be aware of which characters were "I like this dude, they're cool" and which were "this franchise needs reps"
 

Giga Man

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Oct 27, 2017
3,820
They should do a ballot where the only choices are assist trophies and you have to choose ONE to be a fighter.

I'll rally the supporters for Nikki!
 

TheDinoman

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Oct 25, 2017
4,885
If only a smash game had started dev in 2004

Isaac would have been a hardlock
I just don't think Sakurai's ever really thought highly of Isaac or GS in general.

Brawl's roster was planned in 2005, only a few years after The Lost Ages, and Isaac only got an assist trophy. Meanwhile, Smash 4's roster was planned in early 2012, only a little over a year since Dark Dawn's release, and he didn't even bother to bring back Isaac's AT. And even with the ballot, he was only able to get the return of his AT and a Mii costume.

People keep talking about timing and relevancy, but honestly I just think it's because Sakurai doesn't think Golden Sun is notable enough in general to warrant a playable character in Smash.
 
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