Super Smash Bros. Ultimate Downloadable Contents Discussion Thread 4 | Holding Out For A Hero

Which month do you predict the next Nintendo Direct to happen? (Direct as The General Direct)

  • August

    Votes: 2 1.6%
  • September

    Votes: 96 78.0%
  • October

    Votes: 21 17.1%
  • November

    Votes: 4 3.3%

  • Total voters
    123
  • This poll will close: .

stan423321

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,795
clearly remaining first parties are mostly evil and thus prejudice is justified \z
I’ll buy all of the Smash Ultimate content I can.

So give me more content to buy Nintendo!
I did end up buying every bit of Smash DLC on Wii U, since I have a bit of... unhealthy obsession with the poor thing. But now I'm not so sure about those character-specific Mii Costumes, since they're not too fun to make Miis for. Maybe I should throw in some zeds for platformer characters and such in case they treat it as a paid poll.
 

Brock Reiher

Member
Oct 25, 2017
30,466

Community-wide Avatar Bets:
Would we get more characters as DLC outside of Fighter Pass?

#TeamFivePacks or #TeamSix+Packs


The rules are simple and sweet

  • Losers must wear the avatars for two weeks; (if you want longer duration then just let me know!)
  • You can drop out of the community bets (at long you make a claim before the reveals happening)
  • The avatars will be SFW (so no lewd, no bizarre, etc)
  • I know it's a common sense but just LET ME KNOW THAT YOU ARE IN so I can add you to the list
  • Six or more as in additional content beyond the five promised packs. If one pack contains an echo along with a new gutter as a Simon and Richter deal, it would still count one pack (Thanks to BGBW for clarification)
#TeamFiveCharacters
Mekanos
yuoke
Byakura
JustaBigOleGoof
Uncle at Nintendo
Sponge
Gartooth
Lawrence0294
Ecthel


#TeamSix+Characters
Okabe
Xwing
wildvine47
MGPanda
TheGamingNewsGuy
Zubz
Weiss
I'm team 5!
 

TheCed

Member
Oct 27, 2017
655

Community-wide Avatar Bets:
Would we get more characters as DLC outside of Fighter Pass?

#TeamFivePacks or #TeamSix+Packs


The rules are simple and sweet

  • Losers must wear the avatars for two weeks; (if you want longer duration then just let me know!)
  • You can drop out of the community bets (at long you make a claim before the reveals happening)
  • The avatars will be SFW (so no lewd, no bizarre, etc)
  • I know it's a common sense but just LET ME KNOW THAT YOU ARE IN so I can add you to the list
  • Six or more as in additional content beyond the five promised packs. If one pack contains an echo along with a new gutter as a Simon and Richter deal, it would still count one pack (Thanks to BGBW for clarification)
#TeamFiveCharacters
Mekanos
yuoke
Byakura
JustaBigOleGoof
Uncle at Nintendo
Sponge
Gartooth
Lawrence0294
Ecthel


#TeamSix+Characters
Okabe
Xwing
wildvine47
MGPanda
TheGamingNewsGuy
Zubz
Weiss
#TeamSix+Characters

I'm ready to be wrong again !!!
 

ned_ballad

Member
Oct 25, 2017
22,286
Rochester, New York
I wasn't aware the pre-patch game had a date of September. Though I thought Brave was added in day 1 patch stuff.
I would also like a source that dates those character files for September. This is the first time I’ve heard of it.
GOT IT

omg this took 20 minutes to find holy crap

wildvine47

Hey, thanks for giving me a heads up on this, totally would've missed it.

Overall, I'm going to defer to vaanrose and Teeb147 here as to the specifics of the files, as they're clearly more experienced with the filetypes at hand. Especially the bit about two extensions coexisting in maya files, that's something I didn't know about at all. I guess in the end whoever this mystery Jane is, they're definitely connected in some way to Joker. It's just the way in which they're connected that I find interesting.

One thing I do want to throw into the mix is that these files are from a much earlier point in time. Whatever was happening here with Jane's files, it was at a earlier stage in development of Joker/Jane. The files that have the Jane/Joker/Brave mentions in them are from 1.0.0, the day 1 launch version of the game. This means that these files were being worked on at a point well before the actual release date of Ultimate, back when the game had gone gold. For reference, Spider-Man for PS4 went gold towards the end of June, and it took until September for the game to actually release. Using that to give us an estimate, that'd mean that these files were being worked on back in September of 2018, three months before Ultimate came out. This leads me to believe a few things:

Development of DLC was planned earlier and was underway much earlier than most of us thought. If what vaanrose said about .mchp files is true, then they were testing the hair physics on "Jane" right as they were finalizing the launch version of the game. That contradicts a lot of what we've been told by Sakurai about how DLC planning has been done. Supposedly DLC was finalized in November of that year, but looking at these files, we can see that they were already well into development on two if not three of the characters a whole two months earlier. Far enough to have a version of Joker/Jane's seventh costume already modeled and ready to test.

Jane, whoever she is, has been planned and worked on for as long as Joker and Brave had been, which also leads me to agree that she wouldn't just be scrapped so easily. I don't think that necessarily means she has to be a Joker clone/echo though, even though I fully admit that's the most likely outcome. One thing that I keep thinking about looking at these files is that often, DLC characters are built on top of another character as a "base" to save resources and development time. In Smash 4, we saw this was the case with the last three DLC characters. Cloud and Corrin were built using Ike's files as a base, whereas Bayonetta used ZSS as a starting point. We know this practice has continued into Smash Ultimate, as Piranha Plant has leftover Bowser Jr. files in it's code, indicating that they used Jr. as a starting point for Plant. While Jane could easily be an upcoming costume/echo for Joker, I'm beginning to believe that maybe they're another new fighter that's simply using Joker as the starting point. It would explain why there's two different names within the same file, as even characters like Olimar and Alph don't have that distinction. So really, I see two potential options for what Jane could be in the end, and spoilers, neither of them is a scrapped alt.

A. A future costume/echo for Joker - The more likely option, but far from a guarantee. Sakurai is usually the type to give a character some breathing room before deciding on whether or not they're Smash-worthy, as we've saw with ARMS in Ultimate and Splatoon in Smash 4. If this really is the P5R girl as one of the prior two options for Joker, this would be an even faster turnaround than Roy was back in Melee. It's possible he's willing to make an exception again for this character, but it'd certainly be an outlier, considering it's only happened once in 17 years. Between the two, I'd be more likely to bet on DLC costume.

B. A separate character that's using Joker as a base - Here's where I think the interesting theorizing lies. For the past characters we know that have used others as a base, there's always been notable traits shared between them. Corrin and Cloud are both swordfighters with especially long ranged melee attacks, just like their starting point, Ike. Bayonetta and Zero Suit Samus are both acrobatic aerial fighters with a focus on weaponry and unconventional footwear. Piranha Plant and Bowser Jr. are unconventional fighters that both fight from and are based around an odd "vessel" of some sort. So, when we look at Joker, we have a gun-toting, knife-wielding fighter who summons other characters to the battlefield. To me, that sounds like the perfect recipe for a certain beret-wearing, zombie-fighting woman. One whose name is remarkably similar to the "Jane" codename we're discussing. One who, in past fighting games, has famously summoned zombies to the battlefield to fight with. One who has a design with a ponytail on it that might not be her most iconic look and would therefore not be her main outfit, but that would be perfect for say, a seventh alt costume. This could all be nothing, but as I type this I'm increasingly becoming more convinced that all these pieces are coming together, and Jane is in fact Jill Valentine.

Whew, I kinda got carried away with this one, whoopsies.

tl;dr, Jane could very well be an echo/costume for Joker, but whoever she is, she's not been scrapped, and she could very well be Jill Valentine being developed using Joker as a base.
I wasn't losing my mind!
 

Mekanos

Banned
Oct 17, 2018
6,722
That's a really good nugget of info though, thanks for digging it up.

Still though, doesn't take away from my main point. :P

This means that these files were being worked on at a point well before the actual release date of Ultimate, back when the game had gone gold. For reference, Spider-Man for PS4 went gold towards the end of June, and it took until September for the game to actually release. Using that to give us an estimate, that'd mean that these files were being worked on back in September of 2018, three months before Ultimate came out.
This stuff was being worked on towards the tail end of development which makes sense, you want to start as "soon" as possible.

Also, hope for Jill lives? lol
 

Regulus Tera

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,340
What if (and hear me out for a second here) the reason the Geno costume isn’t back is because it didn’t sell enough to merit the licencing for the costume?
 
Aug 12, 2019
32
What if (and hear me out for a second here) the reason the Geno costume isn’t back is because it didn’t sell enough to merit the licencing for the costume?
I feel like that's a really dumb metric to measure fans by honestly. A lot of people don't buy Mii costumes period even if they are of characters that they are otherwise fans of for a variety of reasons such as not playing Mii's, not supporting cosmetic DLC, or just being downright bothered by their appearance (some of the Smash 4 costumes looked real bad TBH).

Like I would get it to some degree, but I'd argue that would be setting up basically any character to fail...
 

BGBW

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,691
In the end it's pretty obvious. The choice was getting Dragon Quest in Smash, one of the biggest names in gaming, or Geno.

Anyone who thought they'd go with the latter was fooling themselves beyond silly.
 

Weiss

Member
Oct 25, 2017
17,044
I look forward to the people doing a 180 and talking about how obvious Geno was as an inclusion if he gets in.
I don't think Geno will ever get that kind of reaction. You'll get a lot of "well now let's do Goku!" kind of stuff.

I feel like that's a really dumb metric to measure fans by honestly. A lot of people don't buy Mii costumes period even if they are of characters that they are otherwise fans of for a variety of reasons such as not playing Mii's, not supporting cosmetic DLC, or just being downright bothered by their appearance (some of the Smash 4 costumes looked real bad TBH).

Like I would get it to some degree, but I'd argue that would be setting up basically any character to fail...
Eh, putting out feelers for reception isn't that unheard of. They want to see if Geno really has any kind of appeal as a playable character, or alternatively it was just Sakurai fulfilling a desire to include a character he missed out on in Brawl.

Obviously the lack of Mii costume confirmed him
This but unironically.
 

wildvine47

Member
Feb 20, 2018
715
What if (and hear me out for a second here) the reason the Geno costume isn’t back is because it didn’t sell enough to merit the licencing for the costume?
I’ve seen this brought up before, but like, they got the license to get that rando staff girl from DQ as a costume. I find it hard to believe they’d pony up for that character of all things but leave known fan-favorite Geno out in the dust. Especially when we saw characters specifically given costumes in the prior game as “consolation prizes”. To me, there’s two options: either Square Enix blocked the costume from returning (very possible considering how anal they’ve proven to be), or there’s something bigger going on with Geno.
 

DecoReturns

Member
Oct 27, 2017
10,902
I’ve seen this brought up before, but like, they got the license to get that rando staff girl from DQ as a costume. I find it hard to believe they’d pony up for that character of all things but leave known fan-favorite Geno out in the dust. Especially when we saw characters specifically given costumes in the prior game as “consolation prizes”. To me, there’s two options: either Square Enix blocked the costume from returning (very possible considering how anal they’ve proven to be), or there’s something bigger going on with Geno.
You know, it’s also possible Hero was a package deal. Not necessarily having to pay extra to get those Mii Costumes.

I honestly don’t think the Geno costume did well. Well, I would say a lot of Mii Costumes didn’t do well.
 
Aug 12, 2019
32
I’ve seen this brought up before, but like, they got the license to get that rando staff girl from DQ as a costume. I find it hard to believe they’d pony up for that character of all things but leave known fan-favorite Geno out in the dust. Especially when we saw characters specifically given costumes in the past game as “consolation prizes”. To me, there’s two options: either Square Enix blocked the costume from returning (very possible considering how anal they’ve proven to be), or there’s something bigger going on with Geno.
Square Enix had no issue with Geno being in base game as a Spirit (alongside Mallow, making up 1/2 of the Square Enix Spirits in base game) and they seemed to have no issue with the initial Mii costume existing in Smash 4, so I'm not really sure it's Square Enix that would be blocking a Geno Mii costume. I'm sure they'll gladly take money from Nintendo for something so inconsequential... I would think it would be Nintendo that might not be willing to pay if anything (Dragon Quest is a huge deal and was a Fighter Pack, so I suspect they just licensed all the content out in one big deal for that stuff).

The reality is we don't know how easy or difficult Geno is, and if he's even a big enough priority to get a costume this time around or if Nintendo is like, "We gave you Banjo & Kazooie, Ridley, and King K. Rool; get off our backs."
 

Weiss

Member
Oct 25, 2017
17,044
In the end it's pretty obvious. The choice was getting Dragon Quest in Smash, one of the biggest names in gaming, or Geno.

Anyone who thought they'd go with the latter was fooling themselves beyond silly.
In my defense I only thought Dragon Quest would prove an insurmountable hurdle for the guy who brought together Cloud, Joker, Snake, Banjo-Kazooie, Simon and Richter, Ryu and Ken, Mega Man, Bayonetta, and Sonic the Hedgehog in one game!
 
Mar 9, 2018
2,340
I support Geno fans. You can't help but root for characters whose exact facial features are hard to discern from their sprite and official render. And the fanbase. They've held on for so long. Here's hoping you Geno fans have your wish come true.
 

Mekanos

Banned
Oct 17, 2018
6,722
I'm inclined to think that from a business perspective, investing in a playable Geno as DLC would be seen as largely redundant with Banjo-Kazooie in the game; both basically hit the same demographics of old school Nintendo fans, but once has a much broader appeal and mindshare in the general gaming community. If I'm an executive that has to be convinced to give Square money for this character, I would wonder who we would be reaching out to that wasn't already satisfied with Banjo.

But that's just me as a forum poster roleplaying as a Nintendo employee.

Also those DQ costumes might sell well in Japan!
 
Dec 31, 2018
313
TBH a lot of valid points have been brought up about why Geno wouldn’t be in and I think they make a lot of sense. BUT I think it’s weird how they were able to include a Geno spirit, but somehow a mini costume was too much effort. Like, I get the legal rights issues, but when you already have Geno in the game in some form, not to mention the fact that you were able to get permission to put his mii costume in a previous game, it seems like, “Geno was just not worth the work to put in” is kind of a weird argument. You could almost literally copy-paste the mii costume in and still make some money off of it.
 

DecoReturns

Member
Oct 27, 2017
10,902
Since Sakurai likes Geno, wouldn’t he want to add the costume again regardless of how well it sold in Smash 4.
He replayed SMRPG and now realizes he doesn’t like him.

Or Square licensing is expensive and Nintendo is like “nah”

Or the Sonic Costumes did bad cause no one wants to re-buy the same DLC again? I know that was super annoying to me when I saw it in the Joker Direct.
 

Weiss

Member
Oct 25, 2017
17,044
He replayed SMRPG and now realizes he doesn’t like him.

Or Square licensing is expensive and Nintendo is like “nah”

Or the Sonic Costumes did bad cause no one wants to re-buy the same DLC again? I know that was super annoying to me when I saw it in the Joker Direct.
The idea that Square jacked the price up for the Geno costume makes most sense to me in the event that there's no Geno in the game.
 
Aug 12, 2019
32
Who is everyone's dark horse candidates for the final two of the Fighter's Pass?

Mine have been Ryu Hayabusa and Lloyd Irving. Koei Tecmo has had so much to do with Nintendo in recent years (Marvel Ultimate Alliance 3, Fire Emblem Three Houses, Fire Emblem Warriors, and 2 more editions of Hyrule Warriors just to name a few), but I still don't feel like Ryu Hayabusa comes up hardly enough for that close of a relationship and being a NES character. And Lloyd always manages to come back around with surprising popularity in certain polls with the only real slights against him being that he's another JRPG Swordsman and maybe that it has been a while since Symphonia was relevant.
 

Clefargle

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,221
Limburg
Who is everyone's dark horse candidates for the final two of the Fighter's Pass?

Mine have been Ryu Hayabusa and Lloyd Irving. Koei Tecmo has had so much to do with Nintendo in recent years (Marvel Ultimate Alliance 3, Fire Emblem Three Houses, Fire Emblem Warriors, and 2 more editions of Hyrule Warriors just to name a few), but I still don't feel like Ryu Hayabusa comes up hardly enough for that close of a relationship and being a NES character. And Lloyd always manages to come back around with surprising popularity in certain polls with the only real slights against him being that he's another JRPG Swordsman and maybe that it has been a while since Symphonia was relevant.
Travis Touchdown and Elma
 

Grapezard

Member
Nov 16, 2017
3,224
Who is everyone's dark horse candidates for the final two of the Fighter's Pass?

Mine have been Ryu Hayabusa and Lloyd Irving. Koei Tecmo has had so much to do with Nintendo in recent years (Marvel Ultimate Alliance 3, Fire Emblem Three Houses, Fire Emblem Warriors, and 2 more editions of Hyrule Warriors just to name a few), but I still don't feel like Ryu Hayabusa comes up hardly enough for that close of a relationship and being a NES character. And Lloyd always manages to come back around with surprising popularity in certain polls with the only real slights against him being that he's another JRPG Swordsman and maybe that it has been a while since Symphonia was relevant.
Dragonborn and Phoenix Wright, Ace Hard Lock.
 
Dec 31, 2018
313
I dunno who my dark horse would be. I feel like all characters viable for smash have been discussed a lot and not discussed enough simultaneously. I’m hoping the next characters are completely out of right field, but I don’t know who to expect anyway.

Besides Geno of course. :p
 

Clefargle

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,221
Limburg
Travis Touchdown is another good one that I always feel like could easily surprise us with how connected Travis has been with the Switch so far. I'd love another Xenoblade character... but I think when they distinctly passed on Rex/Pyra like they did, that ship might have sailed (as sad as that is for Elma too...)
They passed on Rex, no mention of Elma. These are dark horse picks so can we please drop the gatekeeping?
 
Aug 12, 2019
32
They passed on Rex, no mention of Elma. These are dark horse picks so can we please drop the gatekeeping?
Didn't mean it as a gatekeeping, you're more than welcome to think whatever you want. I was also just giving my input on the matter and I say that as someone who would much prefer Elma over Rex/Pyra. I don't know, it just seemed really odd when Rex/Pyra were arguably one of the hardest deconfirms of a character considering Rex was labeled as the one Mii costume to come with the Fighter's Pass despite XC2's big success around the time DLC was being chosen and that hasn't made me super optimistic about any Xenoblade characters' chances.

To be fair, I could totally see an interpretation of that as better for Elma since they went hard against XC2 and didn't include music from XCX in Ultimate to begin with. I genuinely meant no harm and was just giving my own input.