Super Smash Bros. Ultimate Downloadable Contents Discussion Thread 4 | Holding Out For A Hero

Which fighting franchise would you like to see a newcomer from in Super Smash Bros?

  • Tekken

    Votes: 97 20.6%
  • Soul Calibur

    Votes: 78 16.5%
  • King of Fighters (or) Fatal Fury

    Votes: 55 11.7%
  • Blazblue

    Votes: 18 3.8%
  • Guilty Gear

    Votes: 43 9.1%
  • Mortal Kombat

    Votes: 144 30.5%
  • Dead or Alive

    Votes: 37 7.8%

  • Total voters
    472
  • Poll closed .

r_n

Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,563
He did for Banjo-Kazooie.

oh hey what do you know








Having characters included in Smash Bros. is something that takes a lot of effort and support from a whole host of people, and it’s something that transcends profit or loss.
sure sakurai, whatever you say.
 

Neoxon

Community Resettler
Member
Oct 25, 2017
25,772
Houston, TX
He did for Banjo-Kazooie.

He cited overall demand, not the Ballot specifically. It’s not unlike the demand for Mega Man.
 

MondoMega

Member
Jan 10, 2018
13,174
Sydney, Australia

r_n

Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,563
Guess that makes the whole "Geno's Mii Costume wasn't profitable enough to be brought back" argument mute.
Honestly my snide remark aside it reads more like Sakurai stating the obvious: regardless of monetary or rivalry outcome, it's incredible to see this many companies working together to get these characters together.

But also money profit & loss matter a lot let's get real here, Square didn't single out Dragon Quest 11S: Echoes of an Elusive Age - Definitive Edition - exclusively for Nintendo Switch coming September 29th for nothing. Don't see the roster flooded with no namers. Don't see Sakurai hoping to make a million DLC characters out of thin air.
 

DecoReturns

Member
Oct 27, 2017
10,866
Guess that makes the whole "Geno's Mii Costume wasn't profitable enough to be brought back" argument mute.


But you wouldn't have chosen Banjo.
Actually. My list would’ve been.

1. Paper Mario
2. Twintelle
3. Mia (my personal pick over what fans want)
4. Banjo
5. Sora.

I think that’s a good balance. I also think KH would receive almost the same hype in Japan as Hero (yeah, I know). And a bajillion more in the West. I was always adamant that KH was going to blow up with KH3. It just seemed so obvious with how well it was marketed and gaming getting bigger presence. And Banjo is the Communities most wanted. Wasn’t trying to pick my most wanted but strike a nice balance.

Actually, I probably didn’t since there’s 2 bias picks there lol.
 

DecoReturns

Member
Oct 27, 2017
10,866
Honestly my snide remark aside it reads more like Sakurai stating the obvious: regardless of monetary or rivalry outcome, it's incredible to see this many companies working together to get these characters together.

But also money profit & loss matter a lot let's get real here, Square didn't single out Dragon Quest 11S: Echoes of an Elusive Age - Definitive Edition - exclusively for Nintendo Switch coming September 29th for nothing. Don't see the roster flooded with no namers. Don't see Sakurai hoping to make a million DLC characters out of thin air.
Guess they still need to market it since it’s actually out on the 27th lol
 

KtotheRoc

Member
Oct 27, 2017
18,579


A Warriors spin-off using Nintendo IP that sold over a million units on the Wii U.

And KT's relationship with Nintendo has only strengthened since Hyrule Warriors.
 

Mekanos

Member
Oct 17, 2018
6,631
Actually. My list would’ve been.

1. Paper Mario
2. Twintelle
3. Mia (my personal pick over what fans want)
4. Banjo
5. Sora.

I think that’s a good balance. I also think KH would receive almost the same hype in Japan as Hero (yeah, I know). And a bajillion more in the West. I was always adamant that KH was going to blow up with KH3. It just seemed so obvious with how well it was marketed and gaming getting bigger presence. And Banjo is the Communities most wanted. Wasn’t trying to pick my most wanted but strike a nice balance.

Actually, I probably didn’t since there’s 2 bias picks there lol.
No Joker?

 

MondoMega

Member
Jan 10, 2018
13,174
Sydney, Australia
Honestly my snide remark aside it reads more like Sakurai stating the obvious: regardless of monetary or rivalry outcome, it's incredible to see this many companies working together to get these characters together.

But also money profit & loss matter a lot let's get real here, Square didn't single out Dragon Quest 11S: Echoes of an Elusive Age - Definitive Edition - exclusively for Nintendo Switch coming September 29th for nothing. Don't see the roster flooded with no namers. Don't see Sakurai hoping to make a million DLC characters out of thin air.
Actually, Dragon Quest XI S: Echoes of an Elusive Age - Definitive Editon is releasing on September 27th 2019.

Did you miss the ten references to it in Sakurai's Hero overview video?
 

r_n

Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,563

rayngiraffe

Member
Dec 11, 2018
485
Except a cameo in Smash makes both companies money.

Also, not being a popular request is not really a thing to hold against him looking at characters like Joker.
Fair enough, but multiple companies (Capcom, SQ, Bandai) also has had close working relationships with Nintendo so I can't see how KT is suddenly being singled out.
My point about Joker is that he's the protagonist of one of the most well-received new games in recent history (both in terms of sales/award accolades), which NG doesn't share. The only thing that is in their favor is legacy + fairly strong sales performance and there are other much bigger contenders in that regard.

Nintendo certainly treats the first Ninja Gaiden game as one of the iconic and defining titles of the NES. They put it on every platform they could. This includes the NES Classic (now discontinued), the VC (still available on 3DS and Wii U), and NES Online on Switch.
I was referring to general recognizability among the public. If NG's past sales (even in the NES days) weren't too hot, and he doesn't rank highly in fanpolls then he's unfortunately not a contender imho. Every third party has had their big heyday in the past/present but I don't see that for NG.
Plus does it really matter what games Nintendo puts into the NES consoles? There are so many other games being included in those catalogues as well but I don't see much talk about them.
 

MondoMega

Member
Jan 10, 2018
13,174
Sydney, Australia


A Warriors spin-off using Nintendo IP that sold over a million units on the Wii U.

And KT's relationship with Nintendo has only strengthened since Hyrule Warriors.
Well, let's see:
  • Team Ninja worked on Metroid: Other M (which led to Pyrosphere being a stage in Dead or Alive: Dimensions).
  • Nintendo published Razor's Edge outside of Japan.
  • Nintendo and Koei Tecmo co-own the Fatal Frame IP.
  • Koei Tecmo have worked on two Nintendo Musou titles (with Hyrule Warriors recieving a large amount of post-launch attention; between DLC and multiple rereleases).
  • Koei Temco isn't slouching on their Switch support (even if some games are JP exclusive).
  • Just last month, two first-party titles with large involvement from Koei Tecmo/Team Ninja were released (Ultimate Alliance 3 and Three Houses).
So, based on this... a Koei Temco rep has no chance, sorry.
 

KtotheRoc

Member
Oct 27, 2017
18,579
Fair enough, but multiple companies (Capcom, SQ, Bandai) also has had close working relationships with Nintendo so I can't see how KT is suddenly being singled out.
My point about Joker is that he's the protagonist of one of the most well-received new games in recent history (both in terms of sales/award accolades), which NG doesn't share. The only thing that is in their favor is legacy + fairly strong sales performance and there are other much bigger contenders in that regard.
KT is being singled out because they don't have a playable character in Smash yet. Even though they have an Assist Trophy in Ultimate.

I was referring to general recognizability among the public. If NG's past sales (even in the NES days) weren't too hot, and he doesn't rank highly in fanpolls then he's unfortunately not a contender imho. Every third party has had their big heyday in the past/present but I don't see that for NG.
Plus does it really matter what games Nintendo puts into the NES consoles? There are so many other games being included in those catalogues as well but I don't see much talk about them.
There are Ninja Gaiden videos on Youtube with millions of views. This is not some obscure series that only hardcore gamers have heard of.
 

rayngiraffe

Member
Dec 11, 2018
485
Actually. My list would’ve been.

1. Paper Mario
2. Twintelle
3. Mia (my personal pick over what fans want)
4. Banjo
5. Sora.

I think that’s a good balance. I also think KH would receive almost the same hype in Japan as Hero (yeah, I know). And a bajillion more in the West. I was always adamant that KH was going to blow up with KH3. It just seemed so obvious with how well it was marketed and gaming getting bigger presence. And Banjo is the Communities most wanted. Wasn’t trying to pick my most wanted but strike a nice balance.

Actually, I probably didn’t since there’s 2 bias picks there lol.
I have this "extremely" tinfoil hat theory, but KH might not be on the table given how hyped the IP was when KH3 released. Imagine how much Disney (or even SQ) might have asked back then.
Maybe next time? (he's easily my most hoped for character tbh. Eventually)

KT is being singled out because they don't have a playable character in Smash yet. Even though they have an Assist Trophy in Ultimate.



There are Ninja Gaiden videos on Youtube with millions of views. This is not some obscure series that only hardcore gamers have heard of.
Shouldn't games be chosen based off their merit instead of whatever company they come from? I'm not saying NG is a niche title - but its overall performance throughout the years and lack of enthusiasm among fans is a hindrance. If you compared my earlier example (RE/Tekken/MH/DS), do you think NG is compatible to them in recognizability/requests?

I can find videos featuring Goblins and Ghouls, Phoenix Wright and even Shantae having the same viewer count, and Undertale easily dwarfs any existing game in smash with its ost. That's not a reliable way to indicate popularity.
Sales generally aren't good indicators but it's sadly an objective way to prove how well a game is received.
 

Gartooth

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
5,649
I was about to write a post about Hayabusa regarding how he only had the 1 NES game, then did a fact check to find out there was actually a Ninja Gaiden 2 and 3 on the NES. My mind is blown, literally never heard of them before today.
 

BZL8

Member
Oct 27, 2017
464
Somewhere...
If Fire Emblem: Three Houses was developed at Koei Tecmo, does that mean a Three Houses rep is technically a Koei Tecmo rep?

I hope you recognized the question as a joke.
 

KtotheRoc

Member
Oct 27, 2017
18,579
Shouldn't games be chosen based off their merit instead of whatever company they come from? I'm not saying NG is a niche title - but its overall performance throughout the years and lack of enthusiasm among fans is a hindrance. If you compared my earlier example (RE/Tekken/MH/DS), do you think NG is compatible to them in recognizability/requests?

I can find videos featuring Goblins and Ghouls, Phoenix Wright and even Shantae having the same viewer count, and Undertale easily dwarfs any existing game in smash with its ost. That's not a reliable way to indicate popularity.
Sales generally aren't good indicators but it's sadly an objective way to prove how well a game is received.
If it were all about putting the most popular characters from the biggest games on the roster, we wouldn't have gotten Banjo, we would have gotten Steve from Minecraft.

We wouldn't have gotten Mega Man as our first character from Capcom, we would have gotten a Resident Evil character.

We wouldn't have gotten Pac-Man as our Bandai Namco character, we would have gotten a Tekken character.

Sales are not the be-all, end-all.
 
Aug 12, 2019
21
Ok, I’m sure you weren’t trying to rule anyone out. I’m just tired of hearing the same line every single time Elma’s name is brought up. I get it that I’m in a minority picking Elma. But I was responding to a post asking for “dark horse” picks. So I guess I was hoping I’d get to speculate without someone jumping in to tell me how unlikely my most wanted character is. I guess that’s a bit too much to expect at this point tho. It is bullshitif sakurai completely ignores Xenoblade X and we end up getting zero new Xeno chars in Ultimate. I’m still holding out hope that he’s aware of the deficit and will try to rectify it with one of the last DLC slots.
Nah, it’s on me a little bit for asking for dark horse candidates and then starting a discussion about my thoughts on Xenoblade’s future in Smash that were so negative. I tend to be a bit blunt unintentionally when it comes to Smash speculation, and I hadn’t thought of how much other Elma fans would have heard such negativity.

I’m particularly bothered by the lack of music myself as X had some great tunes and Elma is definitely more appealing to me than picks from XC2.


On an unrelated note, I’m confused why we’re questioning Ninja Gaiden’s pedigree? The first two Ninja Gaiden games are held in very high acclaim as classic NES action games to this day with major influence on other games with their cut scenes. And the first two modern Ninja Gaiden games were also incredibly well received and praised for their challenging combat. It’s just the #3 titles that have performed more poorly. Ryu’s arguably the only classic NES era icon that survived to the modern day not in Smash at this point.
 

rayngiraffe

Member
Dec 11, 2018
485
If it were all about putting the most popular characters from the biggest games on the roster, we wouldn't have gotten Banjo, we would have gotten Steve from Minecraft.

We wouldn't have gotten Mega Man as our first character from Capcom, we would have gotten a Resident Evil character.

We wouldn't have gotten Pac-Man as our Bandai Namco character, we would have gotten a Tekken character.

Sales are not the be-all, end-all.
All 3 of your examples have polled extremely highly, and they did have the sales/legacy to cement themselves as the icons of the gaming industry. Show me one poll that has hayabusa placing well and having a tangible indicator that it is among the recognizability that these 3rd party smash characters have.

.

"Unbreakable Determination" also refers to KtotheRoc's insistence on getting Hayabusa into Smash.
Well i did push very strongly for sora/undertale here some time back, but did recognize that my claims werent as substantial as they should be. It's fine to push your claims here but i feel like its important to note the limitations that the character faces.
 

kirby_fox

Member
Oct 29, 2017
1,712
USA
Well, let's see:
  • Team Ninja worked on Metroid: Other M (which led to Pyrosphere being a stage in Dead or Alive: Dimensions).
  • Nintendo published Razor's Edge outside of Japan.
  • Nintendo and Koei Tecmo co-own the Fatal Frame IP.
  • Koei Tecmo have worked on two Nintendo Musou titles (with Hyrule Warriors recieving a large amount of post-launch attention; between DLC and multiple rereleases).
  • Koei Temco isn't slouching on their Switch support (even if some games are JP exclusive).
  • Just last month, two first-party titles with large involvement from Koei Tecmo/Team Ninja were released (Ultimate Alliance 3 and Three Houses).
So, based on this... a Koei Temco rep has no chance, sorry.
Reading this I wouldn't be surprised if KT turned into a 2nd party studio for Nintendo.

And we're obviously not going to get Ninja Gaiden. If we get a KT rep it's going to be Bo Jackson from Tecmo Bowl. If you think Joker is seen a bunch, just wait until Bo Jackson is released as fighter #5.
 
Aug 12, 2019
21
Persona says hello. Persona 5 is the best selling Persona game and it currently sits at 2 million copies, with Ninja Gaiden 2's original Xbox 360 release selling over a million copies in the first few months it came out: https://www.eurogamer.net/articles/ninja-gaiden-ii-sales-top-1-million. The original Ninja Gaiden on Xbox and the Black re-release also sold 1.5 million units, with another half million at least coming from the PS3 Sigma re-release (Not to mention whatever minor sales came from Sigma Plus on PS Vita and anything not updated since these other figures were recorded). And you can't say Joker was super requested beforehand, because he sure as hell wasn't and wouldn't have appeared on the ballot either with Persona 5 releasing in 2017 anyway. So, stop trying to arbitrarily count Ryu Hayabusa out when he easily measures up to a third party already in the game and is a classic NES character era to boot.

By the way, here are all the Ninja Gaiden releases to further prove this is a bigger series that you're implying:

Ninja Gaiden (Arcade) - 1988
Ninja Gaiden (NES) - 1988
Ninja Gaiden II: The Dark Sword of Chaos (NES) - 1990
Ninja Gaiden III: The Ancient Ship of Doom (NES) - 1991
Ninja Gaiden Shadow (Gameboy) - 1991
Ninja Gaiden Trilogy (SNES) - 1995
Ninja Gaiden (Xbox) - 2004
Ninja Gaiden Black (Xbox) - 2005
Ninja Gaiden Sigma (PS3) - 2007
Ninja Gaiden 2 (Xbox 360) - 2008
Ninja Gaiden: Dragon Sword (DS) - 2008
Ninja Gaiden Sigma 2 (PS3) - 2009
Ninja Gaiden 3 (PS3, Xbox 360) - 2012
Ninja Gaiden 3: Razor's Edge (Wii U, later the Xbox 360 and PS3) - 2012
Yaiba: Ninja Gaiden Z (PS3, Xbox 360) - 2014

I excluded a couple of the other re-releases such as the Vita versions of the Sigma games and some weirder early "ports" for older systems too. Not to mention, Ryu Hayabusa has also literally appeared in every Dead or Alive game including the minor titles like Dead or Alive Dimensions for the 3DS. Even if the last two Ninja Gaiden games didn't review well, the IP has been kept alive through his guest appearances in recent years, which also have extended to something like Warriors Orochi 3 and even Halo 3. AND the first Ninja Gaiden game has been re-released on basically everything under the sun Nintendo related.
 

Mekanos

Member
Oct 17, 2018
6,631
I was a Sheik player in Melee and I liked Greninja's inclusion, so I would welcome the OG video game ninja.



With K. Rool's inclusion we can revive the old school pirate/ninja feud, lol.
 

BGBW

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,673
If Sakurai has any good taste, we’ll get a Prince of All Cosmos Mii Costume at some point.

Or just the Prince as a fighter: i’m not picky.
When thinking of Mii costumes Haruka would come with I realise they probably couldn't just do a lot of various idol outfits, so whoever the Bamco rep ends up being, if we get one, I hope they continue Pac-Man's trend and a variety of Bamco Mii costumes with them.

I was a Sheik player in Melee and I liked Greninja's inclusion, so I would welcome the OG video game ninja.

Shinobi is older.
 

rayngiraffe

Member
Dec 11, 2018
485
Yes, I read your comment the first time and already responded to it. You can just say you aren't interested in Ninja Gaiden in Smash instead of trying to rationalize your opinion that it stands no chance and we shouldn't bother discussing it.
I never did say we shouldn't discuss it? It's perfectly fine to talk about things that you want, but it's important to take into consideration points that can be raised for and against your claims. I know cause I did that with Undertale but came to the realization that my evidence didn't really stand up to what I was claiming.

Persona says hello. Persona 5 is the best selling Persona game and it currently sits at 2 million copies, with Ninja Gaiden 2's original Xbox 360 release selling over a million copies in the first few months it came out: https://www.eurogamer.net/articles/ninja-gaiden-ii-sales-top-1-million. The original Ninja Gaiden on Xbox and the Black re-release also sold 1.5 million units, with another half million at least coming from the PS3 Sigma re-release (Not to mention whatever minor sales came from Sigma Plus on PS Vita and anything not updated since these other figures were recorded). And you can't say Joker was super requested beforehand, because he sure as hell wasn't and wouldn't have appeared on the ballot either with Persona 5 releasing in 2017 anyway. So, stop trying to arbitrarily count Ryu Hayabusa out when he easily measures up to a third party already in the game and is a classic NES character era to boot.

By the way, here are all the Ninja Gaiden releases to further prove this is a bigger series that you're implying:

Ninja Gaiden (Arcade) - 1988
Ninja Gaiden (NES) - 1988
Ninja Gaiden II: The Dark Sword of Chaos (NES) - 1990
Ninja Gaiden III: The Ancient Ship of Doom (NES) - 1991
Ninja Gaiden Shadow (Gameboy) - 1991
Ninja Gaiden Trilogy (SNES) - 1995
Ninja Gaiden (Xbox) - 2004
Ninja Gaiden Black (Xbox) - 2005
Ninja Gaiden Sigma (PS3) - 2007
Ninja Gaiden 2 (Xbox 360) - 2008
Ninja Gaiden: Dragon Sword (DS) - 2008
Ninja Gaiden Sigma 2 (PS3) - 2009
Ninja Gaiden 3 (PS3, Xbox 360) - 2012
Ninja Gaiden 3: Razor's Edge (Wii U, later the Xbox 360 and PS3) - 2012
Yaiba: Ninja Gaiden Z (PS3, Xbox 360) - 2014

I excluded a couple of the other re-releases such as the Vita versions of the Sigma games and some weirder early "ports" for older systems too. Not to mention, Ryu Hayabusa has also literally appeared in every Dead or Alive game including the minor titles like Dead or Alive Dimensions for the 3DS. Even if the last two Ninja Gaiden games didn't review well, the IP has been kept alive through his guest appearances in recent years, which also have extended to something like Warriors Orochi 3 and even Halo 3. AND the first Ninja Gaiden game has been re-released on basically everything under the sun Nintendo related.
And Persona 5 came out in Dec 2016 to smash 5's timeline to critical acclaim compared to NG3's 2012 release? The context here is not the same.
Crossovers with KT developed games doesn't tell me much about his overall recognizability/popularity either - is he as iconic as Megaman/Castlevania despite a streak of bad games?
At the end of the day, here's the facts -

- Does Ninja Gaiden have the sales throughout the franchise? Yes, it sold up to 7m altogether.
- Does NG have a long list of games throughout? Yea sure.
- Does NG has recent games that has been well-received recently? No.
- Does NG has the same degree of legacy/iconic-ness that ST/FF/MG has? Nope.
- Does NG has the same amount of popularity/requests that Megaman/Castlevania/Banjo has? No.

All these just indicates to me he's probably not likely for a dlc pack where the competition is much more stringent - it's more likely that he stands a better chance in base roster unless his circumstances change.
 
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