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Super Smash Bros. Ultimate Downloadable Contents Discussion Thread 5 | The Bear Necessities

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IntelliHeath

IntelliHeath

Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,439
Out of curiosity, was The King of Fighters '94 the first crossover fighting game ever made? It never really occurred to me how much KOF seems to have inspired Smash Bros. Even the invitation letters are similar.
I would like to believe so. It was right before the bloom of crossover games like SF x X-Men; Marvel; Sega MegaMix, etc.
 
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IntelliHeath

IntelliHeath

Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,439
This road has been a bit of a rough one for me. After both of my initial requests (Spring Man & Rex) got publicly executed live on stream, I just felt indifferent towards the later inclusions (not hate, obviously). And as the lack of gender & racial diversity became more & more apparent, it began to bother me that much more. The only wins I got out of all this were Inkling (who was inevitable), Chrom, & Joker (all 3 of which I still play to this day). I guess between all the speculating, school, the plays that I've done & will be in, & other stuff on my own end, I'm just tired.
That's why I told you in the discord. I think you are burnt out because you are investing too much into this speculation so take a week or two weeks break and you would feel like rejuvenated.

The roster is very padded, and half of the characters are random models, creatures and animals that have no congruity. You have battle mechs fighting generic D&D wizards, transparent globs, martial artists and gorillas.

Yeah, I don't think I will count that game; and same for some games. I prefer to looks into the game where it's not so obvious full of clones to padding the numbers for the roster.
 

Mekanos

Member
Oct 17, 2018
8,460
how I sleep at night knowing that this game is going to be the biggest media crossover of all time and k. rool was in it day 1

 

Neoxon

Community Resettler
Member
Oct 25, 2017
27,091
Houston, TX
Hmm, that's fair. I'm surprised that it's still stinging ever since you had almost a year to recover from. I guess it's hard to see them in the game (if you had assist trophy on)
It's less of it stinging & more of the other issues with the roster making me unable to support even Rex, despite the 2nd wind of hope this next batch of DLC is bringing.
 

mopinks

Member
Oct 27, 2017
8,601
if you’re ever sad about your most wanted characters not getting in, just remember: it could be worse

you could be ME
 

Lumi

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,680
I'm wondering why "Nintendo chose the characters" is the one time we all refused to take Sakurai at his word.
 

Hb2

Member
Mar 12, 2018
71
Santiago, Chile
Is Nintendo really choosing them though? Sakurai can turn down any Nintendo choice if he wants to, he still has the final word over the roster. He can't just put anyone he wants in the game anymore, but he's still able to turn down any choice he doesn't think suits the game.
 

Mekanos

Member
Oct 17, 2018
8,460
I'm wondering why "Nintendo chose the characters" is the one time we all refused to take Sakurai at his word.
The idea that the extremely successful director of one of Nintendo's biggest cash cows suddenly has his autonomy taken away from him truly baffles me, alongside the fact that all of the characters line up with the type of picks Sakurai has made before, and other companies/staff mentioning Sakurai being part of the decision making process.

I wouldn't say Nintendo has zero input but it's just extremely hard for me to believe Nintendo gave Sakurai a list and said "can this be a fighter? Or how about this?" and that was it.
 
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Xwing

Member
Nov 11, 2017
2,073
With the current count at 81 characters including Terry, and Sakurai's declaration in today's article that he intends to keep working on DLC as long as he's allowed to, I think we may very well pass the 100 character milestone by the end of Ultimate's lifespan, especially if Sakurai decides to do some more echo fighters.
 

NotLiquid

Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,238
I'm wondering why "Nintendo chose the characters" is the one time we all refused to take Sakurai at his word.
People often like to discredit the idea of a corporation making cool picks, or just assume they're inherently tone deaf to the causes of fans, despite the fact that we're living in a Nintendo world that still operated under the forward thinking of Iwata's looming shadow. I have no reason not to believe that both Nintendo and Sakurai operate on similar wavelengths of what they'd like to see in Smash.
 

GreenMamba

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,379




D4: Dixie Dreams Don't Die

----

If the post Fighter Pass characters are sold piece meal I'm holding out hope that there will be some first party characters mixed in.
 

DecoReturns

Member
Oct 27, 2017
11,377
I’ve seen people look at DQ, Joker, and Terry as Sakurai picks.

But I would question the argument that Nintendo had nothing to do with these picks and Sakurai chooses them all by himself.

Joker- that one is a ture Sakurai pick, but it wouldn’t strike me as odd that Nintendo picked a Seires on the rise. I think Atlus is going to eventually support the switch more. They really dropped a bunch of stuff on 3DS.

Hero- Sakurai May love the seires. But Nintendo have been trying to make this series big in the West forever. I feel this was a total Nintendo pick. No questions.

Banjo- The fans picked this one. And Nintendo/Sakurai said “we gotta do it”.

Terry- I also feel Nintendo would be interested in a SNK pick. They’ve helped the switch a lot and continue to do so. When the switch first released, it was pretty dry in content, but those SNK arcade games were dropping left and right.

That’s just me tho.
 

Weiss

Member
Oct 25, 2017
18,450
I'm wondering why "Nintendo chose the characters" is the one time we all refused to take Sakurai at his word.
I think with the new article it's clear it wasn't Sakuai lying to get Waluigi fans off his back, but it's weird to me that Sakurai can create one of Nintendo's biggest cash cows and suddenly have his autonomy severely reduced, and that the first choice in the Pass was a PS4 exclusive character that Sakurai really liked.

So I'm just rolling with it, I guess. Whoever's choosing the DLC has good taste.
 

Lumi

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,680
The idea that the extremely successful director being one of Nintendo's biggest cash cows suddenly has his autonomy taken away from him truly baffles me
This really is the weirdest part. Like, why?

Because the picks have coincidentally been Sakurai's favorites and we have a couple of those studios saying Sakurai approached them for the character?
Doing the negotiations and making the choices are completely different things.
 

ned_ballad

Member
Oct 25, 2017
23,444
Rochester, New York
This really is the weirdest part. Like, why?


Doing the negotiations and making the choices are completely different things.
Why would Sakurai do the negotiations? He's not a lawyer.

iirc there was even an interview where Sakurai said he has nothing to do with negotiations, that's all Nintendo. But I can't find it right now. Searching for Sakurai articles is really difficult.
 

CyberWolfJV

Member
Apr 5, 2019
1,252
Brazil
Just relocating this mockup I made for the thread about the announcement of further DLC; --This is under the assumption we'll get just more 3rd Party guest characters and initially, won't be any doubles of any company already present in the previous pass.

This is basically about half expectation half wishlist (Crash, Heihachi and Jill)
 

Lumi

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,680
Why would Sakurai do the negotiations? He's not a lawyer.

iirc there was even an interview where Sakurai said he has nothing to do with negotiations, that's all Nintendo. But I can't find it right now. Searching for Sakurai articles is really difficult.
He's the one who makes the characters and he's the one with clout. Developers have always mentioned being approached by Sakurai.
 

Lumi

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,680
He approaches them about the character, but negotiating royalties or whatever is just not something he would ever do, be qualified to do, or that Nintendo would trust him to do.

That's a lawyer's job.
What I meant was that there is no correlation between Sakurai choosing the characters himself and approaching developers or publishers.
 

jph139

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,244
Massachusetts
I mean, just because he's not lying doesn't mean he's telling the whole truth.

Nintendo passes characters to him. He confirms if he can make them or not. They give him the go ahead. That's all the detail we have.

For all we know they give him a list of like a hundred characters to choose from.
 

Mekanos

Member
Oct 17, 2018
8,460
Yeah, I'm kinda feeling like I need a break from this thread. I love y'all but I dunno if I can do another two months of this (when Terry's video goes up). Talking about video games should be fun but Smash speculation often feels like a debate class.

At the very least I might sneak in here during work or something. It's been slow.
 

NotLiquid

Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,238
I mean, just because he's not lying doesn't mean he's telling the whole truth.

Nintendo passes characters to him. He confirms if he can make them or not. They give him the go ahead. That's all the detail we have.

For all we know they give him a list of like a hundred characters to choose from.
Honest question on that last part; do people believe that or do they just hope that?

Because it feels like an attempt to reason if Sakurai isn't the one making the picks then there's no way certain characters will ever get in, that their favorites will never get in, or that we just get bad characters.

Strikes me as people projecting their lack of confidence in Nintendo's decision making more than anything else.
 

ned_ballad

Member
Oct 25, 2017
23,444
Rochester, New York
I actually managed to find two articles about how Nintendo does the negotiations (the first article was what I was thinking of)

“There are cases where I will meet with the original creators myself once or twice, but in general communication is carried out through Nintendo. In addition, it wouldn’t necessarily be the original creator I would meet – rather like how I was directly involved with the Kirby series, but don’t know about other projects now. We’ve made various changes so that both cartoonish and realistic characters can appear on the same screen together with it seeming natural, and the characters still looking cool. Character movements are also developed with a Smash Bros. style first. The end result from this is then passed on for review by the other companies, so they can point out any problems for us to fix. Though there might be differences in what is regarded as acceptable in terms of Smash Bros. and in terms of the original series, in the end we try to find something that both sides will be happy with. What I’ve always thought throughout my time working on this series is that if what I make is of good quality, more people will support it. I can feel the expectations coming from both inside and outside the company that Smash Bros. Ultimate will be able to do it right.”
Nintendo Life: Can you explain how you pick the third-party characters? The new game has Capcom, Sega and Bandai Namco characters such as Mega Man and Pac-Man. Can you explain the process for picking these characters and reaching agreement with their IP holders?

Sakurai-san:
First off, I think about which third-party characters would make suitable guests for the game before beginning any negotiations. It goes without saying that Mega Man is a guest who could fit Smash Bros. with his range of moves and attacks, but PAC-MAN as a guest fighter needed some careful consideration. With Bandai Namco Games being the developer for this title, it was definitely one of the reasons I wanted to include him, but I also knew that in order to make this round ball of a character into a proper fighter I would need a lot of good ideas and a strong feel for what kind of moves would fit him.
 

Weiss

Member
Oct 25, 2017
18,450
I mean, just because he's not lying doesn't mean he's telling the whole truth.

Nintendo passes characters to him. He confirms if he can make them or not. They give him the go ahead. That's all the detail we have.

For all we know they give him a list of like a hundred characters to choose from.
Yeah, we don't have the full story, and we're all interpreting Sakurai's comments personally.
 

slothrop

Member
Aug 28, 2019
89
Is there another Director in quite the sweetheart position Sakurai is anywhere else in the industry? Japan or the West.

By that I mean, independent owner of his own company with essentially no staff, paid solely to be management. His consulting fees are probably astronomical. I hope when Nintendo came back along for even more DLC he negotiated his company a nice higher fee.

I don't know of many other directors for hire like this. Kojima obviously has his studio, but he's insourcing development which is higher risk and more capital intensive. Sakurai's company is paid to direct Bandai-Namco on behalf of Nintendo!

This weird governance does make the debates about who picked what kind of interesting. More than likely they decided together and both had veto power, which is both boring and practical.
 

MoonToon

Member
Nov 9, 2018
399
SNK flooded the switch with games since the start and is releasing samurai shodown soon
Persona had the persona q2 game releasing basically in the same month they announced Joker and sega is nintendo's bff
Dragon Quest 11 was one of the first games announced for the nx switch
The only weird one is Banjo but it is not like Nintendo wasn't in talks with Microsoft before he happened =P
I feel like people try too hard to see patterns where there aren't any.

Everything we know about Joker's inclusion, from Sakurai's mad love for P5 to his long love for the series to his gushing about P5 elements on his magazine write ups to his interview with Atlus to what the man at Atlus had to say ... all points to "Sakurai really liked P5 and wanted to put in Joker. So he calls up Atlus and their like "we like smash so this is great" .. so he put in Joker ". Why would Nintendo want to promote Persona? Sega already has 2 characters in Smash, what more good will would Nintendo need that would result in them pushing Sakurai to add in a far lesser known Sega character than the likes of Sonic-n-friends? (there's a difference between "Add in a Sega character" and "Add in a PERSONA character" is what I'm getting at)

As for Terry, I have no clue why Nntendo would demand a SNK character that's not from SS to advertise SS if that's your logic. Terry is a big ol ??? in my mind .... who the fuck wanted this dude? Apparently some people like him but like ... w/e, ok. Good for them ... I have legit no memory of this dude and I KNOW I've played games he's in cause I remember playing as "Lil girl with a bird" in some of the cross over games.

Nintendo says Sakurai picked these, Sakurai says Nintendo picked these ... truth is prob in the middle.
We KNOW Sakurai has a huge personal affection for P5 so if Nintendo asked for this pass to have characters from a list of 3rd parties I feel like this is what you get. Sakurai's picks of IPs he likes most from a list of 3rd party companies.

Would Nintendo bother asking for the next pass to be all their NEWER stuff or more 3rd party picks or say "you can do w/e for the next pass/es"? Who knows, wont know til we see the final character for this pass (I assume he would speak to the nature of the next pass after we got all of these out the way).
 

Weiss

Member
Oct 25, 2017
18,450
Yeah, I'm kinda feeling like I need a break from this thread. I love y'all but I dunno if I can do another two months of this (when Terry's video goes up). Talking about video games should be fun but Smash speculation often feels like a debate class.

At the very least I might sneak in here during work or something. It's been slow.
This is the height of my social life but yeah, we are running in circles.
 

Hailinel

Member
Oct 27, 2017
16,987
I feel like people try too hard to see patterns where there aren't any.

Everything we know about Joker's inclusion, from Sakurai's mad love for P5 to his long love for the series to his gushing about P5 elements on his magazine write ups to his interview with Atlus to what the man at Atlus had to say ... all points to "Sakurai really liked P5 and wanted to put in Joker. So he calls up Atlus and their like "we like smash so this is great" .. so he put in Joker ". Why would Nintendo want to promote Persona? Sega already has 2 characters in Smash, what more good will would Nintendo need that would result in them pushing Sakurai to add in a far lesser known Sega character than the likes of Sonic-n-friends?

As for Terry, I have no clue why Nntendo would demand a SNK character that's not from SS to advertise SS if that's your logic. Terry is a big ol ??? in my mind .... who the fuck wanted this dude? Apparently some people like him but like ... w/e, ok. Good for them ... I have legit no memory of this dude and I KNOW I've played games he's in cause I remember playing as "Lil girl with a bird" in some of the cross over games.

Nintendo says Sakurai picked these, Sakurai says Nintendo picked these ... truth is prob in the middle.
We KNOW Sakurai has a huge personal affection for P5 so if Nintendo asked for this pass to have characters from a list of 3rd parties I feel like this is what you get. Sakurai's picks of IPs he likes most from a list of 3rd party companies.

Would Nintendo bother asking for the next pass to be all their NEWER stuff or more 3rd party picks or say "you can do w/e for the next pass/es"? Who knows, wont know til we see the final character for this pass (I assume he would speak to the nature of the next pass after we got all of these out the way).
Who the fuck wanted Terry Bogard?

SNK fans wanted Terry Bogard. Just because Samurai Shodown is coming to Switch doesn't mean SamSho should get priority over him.
 

Neoxon

Community Resettler
Member
Oct 25, 2017
27,091
Houston, TX
I feel like people try too hard to see patterns where there aren't any.

Everything we know about Joker's inclusion, from Sakurai's mad love for P5 to his long love for the series to his gushing about P5 elements on his magazine write ups to his interview with Atlus to what the man at Atlus had to say ... all points to "Sakurai really liked P5 and wanted to put in Joker. So he calls up Atlus and their like "we like smash so this is great" .. so he put in Joker ". Why would Nintendo want to promote Persona? Sega already has 2 characters in Smash, what more good will would Nintendo need that would result in them pushing Sakurai to add in a far lesser known Sega character than the likes of Sonic-n-friends? (there's a difference between "Add in a Sega character" and "Add in a PERSONA character" is what I'm getting at)

As for Terry, I have no clue why Nntendo would demand a SNK character that's not from SS to advertise SS if that's your logic. Terry is a big ol ??? in my mind .... who the fuck wanted this dude? Apparently some people like him but like ... w/e, ok. Good for them ... I have legit no memory of this dude and I KNOW I've played games he's in cause I remember playing as "Lil girl with a bird" in some of the cross over games.

Nintendo says Sakurai picked these, Sakurai says Nintendo picked these ... truth is prob in the middle.
We KNOW Sakurai has a huge personal affection for P5 so if Nintendo asked for this pass to have characters from a list of 3rd parties I feel like this is what you get. Sakurai's picks of IPs he likes most from a list of 3rd party companies.

Would Nintendo bother asking for the next pass to be all their NEWER stuff or more 3rd party picks or say "you can do w/e for the next pass/es"? Who knows, wont know til we see the final character for this pass (I assume he would speak to the nature of the next pass after we got all of these out the way).
To be fair regarding the SNK thing, the Switch could be getting KoFXV in the near future.
 

NotLiquid

Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,238
Everything we know about Joker's inclusion, from Sakurai's mad love for P5 to his long love for the series to his gushing about P5 elements on his magazine write ups to his interview with Atlus to what the man at Atlus had to say ... all points to "Sakurai really liked P5 and wanted to put in Joker. So he calls up Atlus and their like "we like smash so this is great" .. so he put in Joker ". Why would Nintendo want to promote Persona? Sega already has 2 characters in Smash, what more good will would Nintendo need that would result in them pushing Sakurai to add in a far lesser known Sega character than the likes of Sonic-n-friends?
Sakurai is a fan of a lot of things. It's possible for Nintendo to ask of something that Sakurai happens to be a fan of, or are you suggesting they should be asking for things that he isn't a fan of?

People think of these inclusions as too much of a binary. Nintendo doesn't need to have Persona 5 on their system to want Joker. They could easily just want him because Persona 5 was an award-winning JRPG that shipped millions and sports a recognizable character fans love, and conveniently just so happens to belong to a partner they've had and continue to have a business relationship with. Nintendo doesn't lose anything from promoting Persona 5, if anything they absorb the word-of-mouth from said series.
 

Village

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,632
There's already a assumption rising even among some gaming youtubers that fighting games are doing it wrong in terms of content because they aren't smash. Smash having possibly damn near a 100 person roster and full generational support along with its massive roster before it will cause those same people and problably new ones to make unflattering comparisons because they have no idea about how budgets and game design work.

"Well smash did this " is gonna be a phrase I hate.
 

Weiss

Member
Oct 25, 2017
18,450
If Nintendo said they wanted a SNK character, wouldn't be any other option but Terry indeed, it's not difficult to understand.
Why would Nintendo want an SNK character, is the thing. And nobody better say "there's a bunch of NeoGeo ports" because come on, no one believes that.

If they respect the arcade legacy of SNK, which as far as I'm concerned is the reason Terry's in, then that means good things. I'll hammer this point as much as I have to: whoever's making the choices is doing well so far.