Super Smash Bros. Ultimate Downloadable Contents Discussion Thread 5 | The Bear Necessities

[BassForever]

it's really wild in retrospect that Pokemon got 4 unique newcomers in a single game
Even if time allowed for Wario, who'd be counted as a Mario character, in Melee that'd still only be 3 uniques.


You know it's funny, in all my years of speculation, it's almost always the clones and semiclones people (or: a brand new character that i hate ergo it's gotta go) put on the chopping block but even though Pokemon Trainer had a despised mechanic working against him and three totally separate characters no one ever said 'ok get rid of those 2 for blah blah blah". Even Ivysaur, the most expendable Pokemon


Like every single song in SKC is a remix and they're all bangers and i will accept all of them being added to the game.

It's always been a little surprising when we get assists with no associated music. Then again we have a playable Dark Samus with no Vs Dark Samus so....

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I'm pretty confident somewhere online I said back in the wiiu days they should cut squirtle/ivysaur for Charizard to give him a full moveset. The switch mechanic is so fast in ultimate I can accept it better, but I still prefer how project m had unique moves for all 3 pokemon and kept them separate.

 

[Mekanos]

I'm pretty confident somewhere online I said back in the wiiu days they should cut squirtle/ivysaur for Charizard to give him a full moveset. The switch mechanic is so fast in ultimate I can accept it better, but I still prefer how project m had unique moves for all 3 pokemon and kept them separate.

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They should have had an option to either play as them separately or as a team in Ultimate.

 

[Weiss]

Obviously we would get K. Rool, Ridley, and Mewtwo in their place.

Speaking more seriously, maybe the Forbidden Seven would be the Forbidden Four instead.

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I feel like we would have gotten one gimmick character like PT no matter what. Maybe Plusle and Minun?

 

[IntelliHeath]

I remember during Brawl speculation somebody said Game&Watch was obviously going to be cut because he had served his purpose for informing people about the G&W LCD games, and so now he could be disposed.

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Hahaha, I remember that. I think someone said that again during Smash 4. I'm not sure if it's from same person or not.

 

[MondoMega]

Obviously we would get K. Rool, Ridley, and Mewtwo in their place.

Speaking more seriously, maybe the Forbidden Seven would be the Forbidden Four instead.

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It'd probably be less than four, maybe Forbidden Three.

We know that Mewtwo and Roy were the furthest along among the cut veterans, and Dr. Mario is the easiest to include out of the bunch.

I don't think cutting three newcomers would only give us three veterans in exchange; it'd probably give us another newcomer as well.

 

[mopinks]

Solo Charizard? yeah, makes sense

Solo Squirtle? it's a bit out there, but I can see it

Solo Ivysaur? ridiculous. absolute nonsense.

 

[r_n]

I wonder what Brawl would have been like without Pokemon Trainer. Would we have gotten three new characters instead?

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There's a lot of "what ifs" when it comes to this kind of talk, since he likely makes the project plan with it in mind. If he thought of Brawl's roster as ~35 characters , but decided against 3-character Trainer then probably (though I think we'd still get Charizard). If he just thought of the characters first, without regard for the numbers, though? Maybe not, with the plan and budget reflecting that.

Which....thinking on it...we kind of have proof of the latter being the case. Diddy & Dixie were absolutely planned as a pair and some early development happened that made it not feasible so she got cut. But that doesn't necessarily mean we got someone else in her place

 

[TheDinoman]

There's a part of me that still wishes we could of gotten that Diddy + Dixie tag team character Sakurai had in mind for Brawl.

I mean, it probably wouldn't of executed that great (if PT in Brawl is any indication), but hey, we would of at least still gotten Dixie in sMASH And she most likely would of been seperated into her own character slot in Smash 4 anyway, like how Sheik, ZSS and Charizard were.

Although, I wonder how they'd handle her in Ultimate. Tie her back into Diddy like what they did with the PT Pokemon or just leave her as her own slot, like with ZSS and Sheik.

 

[SalTea]

Now that we have inkling, I kind of wish that switching with PT was also using shield + b or some other combination so that the three Pokemon would all have down specials. Although I guess that would make switching in the air difficult.

 

[r_n]

There's a part of me that still wishes we could of gotten that Diddy + Dixie tag team character Sakurai had in mind for Brawl.

I mean, it probably wouldn't of executed that great (if PT in Brawl is any indication), but hey, we would of at least still gotten Dixie in sMASH And she most likely would of been seperated into her own character slot in Smash 4 anyway, like how Sheik, ZSS and Charizard were.

Although, I wonder how they'd handle her in Ultimate. Tie her back into Diddy like what they did with the PT Pokemon or just leave her as her own slot, like with ZSS and Sheik.

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I think in this scenario, they'd leave her separate. Basically have Pokemon Trainer be the one with the partner gimmick since he takes it the furthest

 

[Palazzo]

It's weird that Sakurai was adding literally who characters like Ice Climbers to Melee when obvious inclusions like Wario and Dedede were still MIA. I'd mention Diddy too but with the situation of Rare at the time that was more understandable.

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It makes sense; characters are chosen due to whatever ideas Sakurai has for their moveset and not just because of fanservice reasons, and the Ice Climbers especially stood out as an interesting gimmick character in Melee, back when character design was more restrained. It's not that weird of a pick.

 

[Regulus Tera]

I think pretty much the only character in Smash that ever got truely replaced was Young Link, with Toon Link.

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Twilight Princess Link has been laid underground already. ;)

 

[NeonZ]

There's a part of me that still wishes we could of gotten that Diddy + Dixie tag team character Sakurai had in mind for Brawl.

I mean, it probably wouldn't of executed that great (if PT in Brawl is any indication), but hey, we would of at least still gotten Dixie in sMASH And she most likely would of been seperated into her own character slot in Smash 4 anyway, like how Sheik, ZSS and Charizard were.

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Diddy and Dixie in that case likely could just be cut too like the Ice Climbers. They most likely would have team attacks, not just a switching mechanic.

 

[ned_ballad]

Where's my Solo Charizard echo, Sakurai?

 

[Mekanos]

Where's my Solo Charizard echo, Sakurai?

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Ridley is already in the game

 

[Regulus Tera]

Where's my Solo Charizard echo, Sakurai?

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In an alternate universe, Ridley is a Charizard echo.

 

[steviestar3]

I'm pretty confident somewhere online I said back in the wiiu days they should cut squirtle/ivysaur for Charizard to give him a full moveset. The switch mechanic is so fast in ultimate I can accept it better, but I still prefer how project m had unique moves for all 3 pokemon and kept them separate.

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I was also in the "cut the trainer, flesh out one of his Pokemon as a replacement" camp after Brawl. Unfortunately it didn't work out that well as Zard was pretty underwhelming in Smash 4.

I will say that Ultimate PT is basically the best execution of the team character concept possible and I still have no idea how they pulled it off considering how terrible previous attempts at transforming characters were. It's basically what I imagined back when I first read about Pokemon Trainer on the Brawl dojo all those years ago.

 

[ned_ballad]

Diddy and Dixie in that case likely could just be cut too like the Ice Climbers. They most likely would have team attacks, not just a switching mechanic.

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There is literally no way they would cut Diddy, they'd just rip his moveset apart until nothing was left of Dixie.

Like how they couldn't just cut Olimar because of the 3DS, they had to work around it. Ice Climbers are expendable, but Diddy is Diddy. He's not so easily cut.

 

[Uncle at Nintendo]

You guys want to see something extremely fasinating?

Super Smash Brothers 2

Super Smash Brothers 2

themushroomkingdom.net

This was from all the way back in 2001, when details about Melee were first coming out.

This post cracks me up:



Don't worry, he'll be included seven years later in the third game

Also on the second page



This dude actually predicted Young Link, lol

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That shit is crazy. The forum is pretty much dead but its still up for some reason.

 

[Regulus Tera]

I was also in the "cut the trainer, flesh out one of his Pokemon as a replacement" camp after Brawl. Unfortunately it didn't work out that well as Zard was pretty underwhelming in Smash 4.

I will say that Ultimate PT is basically the best execution of the team character concept possible and I still have no idea how they pulled it off considering how terrible previous attempts at transforming characters were. It's basically what I imagined back when I first read about Pokemon Trainer on the Brawl dojo all those years ago.

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Stamina was such a stupid mechanic. Just like tripping.

Brawl was Sakurai at his most experimental and that's not necessarily a good thing.

 

[r_n]

Diddy and Dixie in that case likely could just be cut too like the Ice Climbers. They most likely would have team attacks, not just a switching mechanic.

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I think Sakurai would have done a split for them. Absolute worst case is Dixie gets cut anyway, but Diddy's a relevant enough face that it'd be worth a moveset alteration. He's a lot less expendable, I think. (imo he'd keep dixie too, since they'd share dna, but you know...worst case and all)

 

[BassForever]

Hahaha, I remember that. I think someone said that again during Smash 4. I'm not sure if it's from same person or not.

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I'm pretty sure you'll find people seriously arguing for 90% of any smash games roster to be cut for the next game.



On another topic I always think back to a "what could have been" if Nintendo had made a Smash Bros game for the Nintendo DS. I had always assumed it would be a smash 64-2 considering we started the ds with a super mario 64 port. I'm glad we finally got our portable smash on 3ds (and of course the goat on switch) but it's fun to think about a smash on DS.

 

[mopinks]

There is literally no way they would cut Diddy, they'd just rip his moveset apart until nothing was left of Dixie.

Like how they couldn't just cut Olimar because of the 3DS, they had to work around it. Ice Climbers are expendable, but Diddy is Diddy. He's not so easily cut.

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no, they'd keep Dixie and cut Diddy as an homage to DKC3

 

[Lady Bow]

Eh Pokemon Trainer deserves all the work imo. The Gen 1 starters are too iconic and would be a disservice to not go all in on.

 

[BassForever]

no, they'd keep Dixie and cut Diddy as an homage to DKC3

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Nah, it'd be Kiddy Kongs time to shine!

 

[r_n]

Stamina was such a stupid mechanic. Just like tripping.

Brawl was Sakurai at his most experimental and that's not necessarily a good thing.

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The most wild thing about Tripping to me is its not even mentioned anywhere on the website. The closest we get is the banana peel item.
The Dojo is so ridiculously indepth on just about every single thing within Brawl except the omnipresent 1% chance of tripping

I kind of wonder if even Sakurai had second thoughts about it towards the end, but I'll admit that's a hard read based on nothing and ultiamtely it was still in the game....but it's so weird!

 

[IntelliHeath]

I'm pretty sure you'll find people seriously arguing for 90% of any smash games roster to be cut for the next game.

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No Kidding. Thankfully I'm more likely to chose to retire from Smash Speculation for next era because I know it's going to be extremely stupid to discuss about some stuff when you have some people taking it too personal for some stuffs. Grinch Leak is pretty bad but I bet there would be worse one in the future.

 

[BassForever]

No Kidding. Thankfully I'm more likely to chose to retire from Smash Speculation for next era because I know it's going to be extremely stupid to discuss about some stuff when you have some people taking it too personal for some stuffs. Grinch Leak is pretty bad but I bet there would be worse one in the future.

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Next smash will be ugly because it's almost a guarantee to be the mvci of smash games. It'll see a huge reduction in roster size due to not being able to get all the 3rd parties and people will be angry.

 

[TheDinoman]

Stamina was such a stupid mechanic. Just like tripping.

Brawl was Sakurai at his most experimental and that's not necessarily a good thing.

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Honestly I think the dumbest mechanic PT had was the type weakness thing

It's so absurdly unbalanced. Tons of characters have fire attacks, but barely anyone have water or plant attacks. So basically Charizard and Squirtle are mostly unaffected while poor Ivysaur gets fucked.

It's stuff like that and pre-patch Bayonetta where one really needs to draw the line between what's accurate to the source material and what fits with Smash's mechanics.

 

[Mekanos]

I don't even know what they would put in a new Smash that could excite me enough to make up for all the cuts.

I'd rather not think about it.

 

[IntelliHeath]

Old timers would remember this from certain thread.

 

[steviestar3]

Stamina was such a stupid mechanic. Just like tripping.

Brawl was Sakurai at his most experimental and that's not necessarily a good thing.

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Even outside of stamina Brawl PT was a total mess. Squirtle was really good but Charizard was... not great and Ivysaur was borderline unusable. It's impressive how Ultimate has brought all three characters to a relatively similar power level (granted there were a few patches that nerfed Ivy and buffed Zard).

The most wild thing about Tripping to me is its not even mentioned anywhere on the website. The closest we get is the banana peel item.
The Dojo is so ridiculously indepth on just about every single thing within Brawl except the omnipresent 1% chance of tripping

I kind of wonder if even Sakurai had second thoughts about it towards the end, but I'll admit that's a hard read based on nothing and ultiamtely it was still in the game....but it's so weird!

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I actually thought he had mentioned it on the website somewhere under the name "prat falling" but I just did a quick look-through and couldn't find anything.

 

[CyberWolfBia]

if Diddy and Dixie were a tag team duo in Brawl, in Smash4 they'd be separated in two characters like Sheik/Zelda and ZSS/Samus,.. they'd never cut them.

 

[TheDinoman]

I think random tripping does seem to be something Sakurai internally regrets.

Just look at the way he adressed it when Smash 4 was announced

"To answer quite frankly, it will not return,"

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[mopinks]

Next smash will be ugly because it's almost a guarantee to be the mvci of smash games. It'll see a huge reduction in roster size due to not being able to get all the 3rd parties and people will be angry.

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it's not truly the mvci of smash unless they do that and also barely add any new characters to make up for it

 

[Horohorohoro]

Related to the conversation about female characters and representation from a few pages ago, I really think people are sleeping on Reimu's chances. Yes, she isn't as popular in America, but Touhou is a HUGE franchise, like, the characters all get TONS of fanart. I honestly think she has a really good shot, and I'm not even a Touhou fan.

 

[ned_ballad]

The next game will probably cut like <10 characters and they'll all be back as DLC

People are way off the mark if they think the roster is getting gutted or anything like that. Smash sells because of its roster, nothing else is as important

 

[IntelliHeath]

Next smash will be ugly because it's almost a guarantee to be the mvci of smash games. It'll see a huge reduction in roster size due to not being able to get all the 3rd parties and people will be angry.

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Cutastrophe!

I don't even know what they would put in a new Smash that could excite me enough to make up for all the cuts.

I'd rather not think about it.

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It's going to be bonker. lol

I don't really envy of Sakurai handling next Smash Bros, knowing that some fans are going to be disappointed regardless of outcomes.

 

[r_n]

No Kidding. Thankfully I'm more likely to chose to retire from Smash Speculation for next era because I know it's going to be extremely stupid to discuss about some stuff when you have some people taking it too personal for some stuffs. Grinch Leak is pretty bad but I bet there would be worse one in the future.

Click to shrink...

The next smash is going to be a fucking disaster for discussion unless literally the first microsecond is "we pulled another miracle! everyone is here! again! cloud now only has one song, please do not ask us for further details."
if they do not make that happen it will be a blood bath. Even if they manage to salvage 90% of the roster and lead with revealing every returning veteran again, it's going to be nasty.

Honestly I think the dumbest mechanic PT had was the type weakness thing

It's so absurdly unbalanced. Tons of characters have fire attacks, but barely anyone have water or plant attacks. So basically Charizard and Squirtle are mostly unaffected while poor Ivysaur gets fucked.

It's stuff like that and pre-patch Bayonetta where one really needs to draw the line between what's accurate to the source material and what fits with Smash's mechanics.

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"barely anyone" is really burying the lede here
The only damaging water attacks in Brawl belong to Squirtle, at a whopping 3 moves and the water not-gordo from SSE
The only grass attacks period are Ivysaur. And checking ssbwiki to triple check that, no really, pikmin dont count as a grass attacks reveals this wonderful little quirk

In The Subspace Emissary, almost all enemies have the same resistance to both slash and grass attacks; Primids are the only exception, taking 1.3× damage from slash attacks but 1.0× from grass attacks.

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It's a system that would be like...cute for Pokemon Trainer mirror matches except a ton of attacks across a bunch of characters and items have fire.

 

[CyberWolfBia]

I already manifested myself about this, but I want the Smash Bros. brand to go beyond fighting games; especially if they don't think it worth to do another Mario Kart on Switch with MK8DX selling well.. just give us a Smash Kart already, Nintendo.

The context being different and with several other teams/directors dealing with roster decisions, we'll be getting different approaches all around. --Maybe the amount of F-Zero characters in a racing game will be bigger? maybe the amount of Xenoblade characters will be bigger in a RPG? and so on ~

 

[Weiss]

it's not truly the mvci of smash unless they do that and also barely add any new characters to make up for it

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Yeah but they'll add like two really cool characters and expect you to buy the whole game for them.

 

[Metto]

thank you terry

 

[IntelliHeath]

The next smash is going to be a fucking disaster for discussion unless literally the first microsecond is "we pulled another miracle! everyone is here! again! cloud now only has one song, please do not ask us for further details."
if they do not make that happen it will be a blood bath. Even if they manage to salvage 90% of the roster and lead with revealing every returning veteran again, it's going to be nasty.

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Yup, and this community would have some people rubbing in another people's faces if they got cut which is going to be sad things about speculation.

 

[Neoxon]

it's not truly the mvci of smash unless they do that and also barely add any new characters to make up for it

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Roster-wise, MvCI had numerous problems...

• No X-Men or Fantastic Four characters
  • Because Perlmutter
• Few women
• Even fewer people of color
• Not a ton of fan-favorites
• Few newcomers
  • Tons of asset reuse with little to show for it

 

[Mekanos]

I don't really envy of Sakurai handling next Smash Bros, knowing that some fans are going to be disappointed regardless of outcomes.

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It isn't just the cuts, but the fact that there are basically no characters left they could announce that could get me as excited as the likes of Mega Man, Cloud, King K. Rool, Banjo & Kazooie, Ridley, etc. I waited for years, sometimes a decade, to see those characters get into Smash. There's nobody left I want anywhere near as much. Even Sakurai is aware it's going to be diminishing returns after this game which is why he's decided to do DLC for as long as he can.

 

[Regulus Tera]

I'm very confused as to why Peach would generate that reaction.

Also who the fuck is Fara Phoenix

 

[ned_ballad]

Cloud must be super annoying to add to Smash Games because he's expensive and Square are weird with content, but he's like the most used character in the game, so what do you even do to not blow your entire licensing budget on one character

 

[TheDinoman]

I'm very confused as to why Peach would generate that reaction.

Also who the fuck is Fara Phoenix

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Character from the old Star Fox Nintendo Power comics

 

[mopinks]

Cloud must be super annoying to add to Smash Games because he's expensive and Square are weird with content, but he's like the most used character in the game, so what do you even do to not blow your entire licensing budget on one character

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that's the true meaning of "cloud strife"

 

[BassForever]

it's not truly the mvci of smash unless they do that and also barely add any new characters to make up for it

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The issue is once smash ultimate is all said and done who'll be left to add? Outside of a few new nintendo characters who became stars too late for ultimate (rex & pyra, springman, officer howard, etc) damn near every major 1st and 3rd party character will have been playable already. If you view most of the 3rd party as x-men characters and the few newcomers as the ones I mentioned above it's really plausible we could see a roster like that. Now I expect the next smash to have relatively speaking a way better roster then infinite, but the backlash will be fierce like infinites.